• Re: [gentoo-dev] On Gentoo silencing policy

    From =?utf-8?Q?Arsen_Arsenovi=C4=87?=@21:1/5 to Grand Duet on Mon Jul 28 15:30:01 2025
    Grand Duet <grand.duet@gmail.com> writes:

    I wonder who is Sam James ...

    One of the most prolific contributors to Gentoo, if not the most
    prolific.
    --
    Arsen Arsenović

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  • From Matt Turner@21:1/5 to grand.duet@gmail.com on Mon Jul 28 18:30:01 2025
    On Mon, Jul 28, 2025 at 6:52 AM Grand Duet <grand.duet@gmail.com> wrote:


    Can you imagine a scenario in which a problem occurs that no one foresaw?

    If you can, then you must acknowledge that it's possible for bad
    things to happen without anyone intending malice.

    In that case, perhaps you should show some grace to those whose work
    you've used for 12 years, accept the apology [1] and [2] stop [3]
    beating [4] a [5] dead [6] horse [7].

    Sam is right that "The tone of this isn't OK." [8], and by starting
    this thread on gentoo-dev@ you have confirmed that he was also right
    to lock the bugs.

    [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/960773#c1
    [2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c23 ("I’ve been using Gentoo for 12
    years, and I have never been so disappointed by the Gentoo as I was
    after this kludge have been introduced.")
    [3] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c25
    [4] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c28
    [5] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c36 ("For me, it a failure of
    Gentoo to meet its own specifications and common sense in general
    ...")
    [6] https://bugs.gentoo.org/960773#c1 ("I’ve been using Gentoo for 12
    years, and I have never been so disappointed by the Gentoo as I was
    when this happened to say the least.")
    [7] https://bugs.gentoo.org/960773#c6 ("For me, it a failure of Gentoo
    to meet its own specifications and common sense in general")
    [8] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c38

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  • From Randy Barlow@21:1/5 to Grand Duet on Tue Jul 29 01:50:01 2025
    On Mon, 2025-07-28 at 13:52 +0300, Grand Duet wrote:
    I wonder who is Sam James

    Sam is a powerhouse, and is good people, that's who!

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  • From Filip Kobierski@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 30 11:00:01 2025
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    In that case, perhaps you should show some grace to those whose work
    you've used for 12 years, accept the apology [1] and [2] stop [3]
    beating [4] a [5] dead [6] horse [7].
    [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/960773#c1
    [2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c23
    [3] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c25
    [4] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c28
    [5] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c36
    [6] https://bugs.gentoo.org/960773#c1

    [7] https://bugs.gentoo.org/960773#c6
    [8] https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c38


    You got it wrong: It is 12 years of testing and reporting bugs.

    You write as if giving feedback on Gentoo's packaging required
    only your work. Please acknowledge that __using anything__
    from ::gentoo meant that someone had to work on it and that
    being a user, even an active one, is way less demanding than a
    package maintainer, not even a developer!

    And it is not beating a dead horse but giving feedback you need.

    Seeing as you have been muted and no one seems to protest I would
    wager what you call feedback is not needed.

    As a human being I can say that the 8 links show that besides
    providing technical feedback you also needlessly throw in
    aggressive statements. I cannot think of any other use for them
    that to make the people responsible (volunteers!) feel bad. This
    is a _very_ bad way of trying to get someone to do something.



    Let me try to constructively criticize bug report #960773 as a
    non-developer.
    You stated what the problem is and with the help of a LLM
    figured out why it happened. This I think is good!
    However the last paragraph:
    I’ve been using Gentoo for 12 years and I have never been so
    disappointed by the Gentoo as I was when this happened to say
    the least.

    Why even mention it? Does it help getting the bug fixed?
    You have lost your files, it was not your fault and you feel bad.

    This is understandable. I think mentioning it serves no purpose
    though. Then you mention the 12 years. Yes, it is a long time.
    Is it relevant? I do not think so.

    This gives the report a tone that you are superior to people
    working on it (see also "failure of common sense in general")
    and as the superior you criticize, sometimes aggressively, and
    demand someone's action as if you paid them and were their boss.
    Your communication style was just inappropriate in these bugs so
    I agree with Sam's "The tone of this isn't OK".



    I assume that as a long-time user you want the best for the
    distribution. Trying to shame volunteers into work _will_ do more
    harm than good so do not try to do that. Please accept that
    and show our developers basic respect (or even gratefulness ;)).

    Regards
    fkobi
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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to Grand Duet on Wed Jul 30 12:00:01 2025
    On Wed, 2025-07-30 at 12:45 +0300, Grand Duet wrote:
    Please, consider the following situation:

    Construction workers drop a central heating radiator on a resident’s foot.


    Stop here. We are not your "workers". You are not paying for our
    services. You are just benefitting from them for free, then making
    demands and being abusive.

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to Filip Kobierski on Wed Jul 30 12:00:01 2025
    On Wed, 2025-07-30 at 08:49 +0000, Filip Kobierski wrote:
    You stated what the problem is and with the help of a LLM
    figured out why it happened. This I think is good!

    No, it's not. LLMs are unethical and harmful, and are explicitly banned
    by Gentoo policies. If people need LLMs to file bugs, I'd rather have
    them not file bugs at all.

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Arsen_Arsenovi=C4=87?=@21:1/5 to Grand Duet on Wed Jul 30 16:20:01 2025
    Grand Duet <grand.duet@gmail.com> writes:

    ср, 30 июл. 2025 г. в 12:52, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>:

    On Wed, 2025-07-30 at 08:49 +0000, Filip Kobierski wrote:
    You stated what the problem is and with the help of a LLM
    figured out why it happened. This I think is good!

    No, it's not. LLMs are unethical and harmful, and are explicitly banned
    by Gentoo policies. If people need LLMs to file bugs, I'd rather have
    them not file bugs at all.

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny


    And here we arrived at our starting point: you are hostile to any criticism and even do not want to see bug reports.

    You're ignoring a key clause in that sentence.

    P.S. I am not a paid worker of Gentoo, and because of that
    I am free to locate bugs as I find more suitable for me,
    with or without ChatGPT despite any bans in Gentoo policy.

    Neither am I. Not how it works.

    And by the way, Linus Torwalds sees using LLM to find bugs useful <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHHT6W-N0ak>.
    Have not you banned Linus Torwads yet?

    That's not how you spell Torvalds. Ignoring that, why'd Torvalds be
    special?
    --
    Arsen Arsenović

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  • From Eli Schwartz@21:1/5 to Grand Duet on Wed Jul 30 15:40:01 2025
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    On 7/30/25 5:45 AM, Grand Duet wrote:
    ср, 30 июл. 2025 г. в 11:50, Filip Kobierski <fkobi@pm.me>:

    I assume that as a long-time user you want the best for the
    distribution. Trying to shame volunteers into work _will_ do more
    harm than good so do not try to do that. Please accept that
    and show our developers basic respect (or even gratefulness ;)).

    Regards
    fkobi


    Please, consider the following situation:


    If you are going to give a parable as an analogy, it should at least be
    an accurate one.


    Construction workers drop a central heating radiator on a resident’s foot.


    Not a construction worker, a volunteer charity worker.


    The resident cries out in pain.


    The resident did more than cry out in pain, the resident angrily stated
    (no doubt influenced by the pain in his foot!)


    "You have no common sense, why are you deliberately harming people? I've
    bee relying on your charity organization for over a decade and I've
    never been as disappointed in you as I am today."


    Construction worker Sam walks in and stuffs a gag into the resident’s mouth.

    The resident protests Sam’s actions.


    The resident LITERALLY asks, "Who is Sam? I've never heard his name
    before. Does he work for your charity org? Is he influential in the org?
    Do his actions tend to reflect agreement within the charity org
    leadership on how to respond to events?"


    Construction worker Arsen: "Sam is one of the most prolific construction workers, if not the most prolific."


    Charity worker Arsen: "Factual analysis of your query indicates, he is
    indeed well known in the charity org, he is one of the most active
    volunteers in all areas so you'll indeed see his name appear a lot. Also
    yes, yes, and yes."


    Construction worker Matt: "You should show more appreciation, considering
    how much you've benefited from our work."


    Charity worker Matt: "You should show more empathy towards the free
    attempt to charitably help out, considering how much charity work you
    genuinely benefited from. Blaming people for accidents isn't very
    polite. You do understand accidents happen, surely? Nobody dropped a
    radiator on your foot deliberately. But responding by accusing people of malicious hatred does not help find a resolution, it only makes both
    sides bitter and angry. Please show more empathy."


    Construction worker Andreas: "You wouldn't be crying if you'd had life insurance <https://bugs.gentoo.org/957712#c24>."

    Anticipating further developments:

    Representative of the construction company: "Have you seen the notice on
    the door saying you’re using this building at your own risk?"




    --
    Eli Schwartz

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