Money for nothing: is universal basic income about to transform
society?
Money for nothing: is universal basic income about to transform
society?
No, it's not. :) Thanks for asking.
And the reason is, somebody somewhere has to pay - through taxes
On 2024-07-17, JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:
Money for nothing: is universal basic income about to transform
society?
No, it's not. :) Thanks for asking.
And the reason is, somebody somewhere has to pay - through taxes - the
money that gets disbursed for universal basic income. And no one wants
to do that, not even me.
UBI was tried with disastrous results in the
soviet union, so it is disproven both financially and historically.
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 12:02:39 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
UBI was tried with disastrous results in the
soviet union, so it is disproven both financially and historically.
One example does not 'prove' the concept is fruitless.
I believe Elon is living in a Sci-Fi or bullshit world when he says,
"here will come a point where no job is needed -you can have a job if
you want one for personal satisfaction - but AI will do everything." ===========================
This study gives a sense of what could happen, but I believe their
finding that "additional jobs in the service sector" came about is
bumstear thinking as more/more robots are "employed."
30/2017
German Robots - The Impact of Industrial Robots on Workers
...
...
Conclusion
In this paper we have studied the impact of rising robot exposure on
the careers of individual manufacturing workers, and the equilibrium
impact across industries and local labor markets in Germany. Unlike in
the United States, we find no evidence that robots have been major job killers so far. They do no not cause overall job losses, but they do
affect the composition of aggregate employment in Germany. We estimate
that every robot destroys roughly two manufacturing jobs. This implies
a total loss of 275,000 manufacturing jobs in the period 1994-2014,
which accounts for roughly 23% of the overall decline during those two decades. But this loss was fully offset (or even slightly
over-compensated) by additional jobs in the service sector.
https://doku.iab.de/discussionpapers/2017/dp3017.pdf
One example does not 'prove' the concept is fruitless.
Actually in science, all it takes is one example to disprove a theory. >Economics is not a science perhaps? ;)
I think Johan Norber writes about this in his The Capitalist Manifesto,
and he also provides his sources as well, although no one I have ever
chatted with on usenet has ever read the book.
Also note that it is a slippery slope. Even if it would work financially,
and due to the cost and inefficiencies created it will never work in a pre-scarcity society, it will increase inflation, so that UBI would never fully cover everything. UBI was tried with disastrous results in the
soviet union, so it is disproven both financially and historically.
As far as I can tell by looking around my area,
On 2024-07-18, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Also note that it is a slippery slope. Even if it would work financially,
and due to the cost and inefficiencies created it will never work in a
pre-scarcity society, it will increase inflation, so that UBI would never
fully cover everything. UBI was tried with disastrous results in the
soviet union, so it is disproven both financially and historically.
As far as I can tell by looking around my area, if you gave everyone
a basic/universal minimum income of say $250, they would immediately
purchase and consume $250 of marijuana, alcohol, and cigarettes, and
still be broke/poor/ignorant/needy.
I have no faith in the human race. Ignorant angry thunder monkeys.
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 22:49:02 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
One example does not 'prove' the concept is fruitless.
Actually in science, all it takes is one example to disprove a theory.
Economics is not a science perhaps? ;)
In real estate, they say location, location, and location, which
implies other locations are not good.
If a country fails in some endeavor, we can say under these set of
conditions whatever failed.
UBI - Iran became the first country to introduce a system of UBI in
December 2010.[94][95] It was paid to all citizens and replaced the
gasoline subsidies, electricity, and some food products,[96] that the
country applied for years to reduce inequalities and poverty. The sum corresponded in 2012 to approximately US$40 per person per month,
US$480 per year for a single person, and US$2,300 for a family of five people.[97][98]
more examples there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 22:49:02 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I think Johan Norber writes about this in his The Capitalist Manifesto,
and he also provides his sources as well, although no one I have ever
chatted with on usenet has ever read the book.
The Capitalist Manifesto may refer to:
The Capitalist Manifesto (Kelso and Adler book), a 1958 book by
Louis O. Kelso and Mortimer J. Adler
Capitalist Manifesto, a 2021 book by Robert Kiyosaki
The Capitalist Manifesto: Why the Global Free Market Will Save the
World, a 2023 book by Johan Norberg ==================================================
Idealism does fail, and there can be other reasons why success happens
or fails.
One problem with capitalism is when shit hits the fan, they want to
socialize the costs. (Three Mile Island accident)
Uncle Sam has spent billions and billions...on roadways, waterways,
nuclear power, hydro power, tax breaks, etc., etc., so in reality, capitalists are not standing on their own two feet. That "socialized" funding has propelled capitalism in US.
Socializing the cost
Oh no, that is incorrect. Socializing the cost, and what Uncle sam does is >not capitalism.
Yet, for some reason, politicians (mostly socialist) insist on trying, >despite all evidence that it does not work and actually makes things worse >given todays societies and current technological level.
despite all evidence
Oh no, that is incorrect. Socializing the cost, and what Uncle sam does is >not capitalism.
JAB wrote:solution
Money for nothing: is universal basic income about to transform
society?
The concept of a guaranteed income is gaining traction as a
to the impact of AI and way to encourage more rewarding andsocially
valuable workdispossess
....
....
Today, as artificial intelligence (AI) learns from the collective intellectual and creative output of humans and uses this to
workers of their livelihoods, the idea of universal basic income(UBI)
as a possible solution is gaining traction. "e are seeing themost
disruptive force in history,"Tesla founder and X (formerlyTwitter)
owner Elon Musk said last year, before speculating: "here willcome a
point where no job is needed -you can have a job if you want onefor
personal satisfaction -but AI will do everything."many workers,
The counter argument is that although AI could replace a range of
jobs, it will also create new roles (including oversight of AI
decision making - known as "uman in the loop". Yet for
the advance of AI continues to be alarming. In March, afteranalysing
22,000 tasks in the UK economy, covering every type of job, a model59%
created by the Institute for Public Policy Research predicted that
of tasks currently done by humans -particularly women and youngpeople
=could be affected by AI in the next three to five years. In theapocalypse"where eight
worst-case scenario, this would trigger a "obs
million people lose their jobs in the UK alone.
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 11:52:59 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Oh no, that is incorrect. Socializing the cost, and what Uncle sam does is >> not capitalism.
Capitalists walk on a bedrock of socialized inputs ($$$)....
The Internet was created via Advanced Research Projects Agency
Network, and allowed the business sector to profit in various ways.
Without social inputs for various transport means, few capitalists
would exist today. Capitalism has a symbiotic relationship with
socialist thinking. But capitalists tend to think like parasites.
Remember a capitalist's thinking, 'capitalize the profits, and
socialize the losses,' whenever possible.
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 11:52:59 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Oh no, that is incorrect. Socializing the cost, and what Uncle sam does is >> not capitalism.
Uncle Sam has subsidized various industries via R&D, tax benefits, and various projects (highways, waterways, etc).
Henry Ford did not build the highways....nor did Tesla.
Taxpayers paid for Uncle Sam's "services"...socialized costs....
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 11:49:11 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Yet, for some reason, politicians (mostly socialist) insist on trying,
despite all evidence that it does not work and actually makes things worse >> given todays societies and current technological level.
"here will come a point where no job is needed -you can have a job if
you want one for personal satisfaction - but AI will do everything."
despite all evidence
Based upon the capitalists' sky is the limit mindset in many
countries. Another issue here is related to a church/state advocating
more children is better [for their coffers or war machine (years
ago)].
And many inventions have been done without the government.
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 23:00:37 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
And many inventions have been done without the government.
Your narrow focus limits your perspective.
"What does the quote "standing on the shoulders of giants" mean?
It is a metaphor of dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants (Latin:
nani gigantum humeris insidentes) and expresses the meaning of
"discovering truth by building on previous discoveries". This concept
has been dated to the 12th century and, according to John of
Salisbury, is attributed to Bernard of Chartres."
Standing on the shoulders of giants - Wikipedia
In US, federal and state governments have supported educational infrastructure in many different ways.
Inventors stand on the shoulders of giants, and federal/state
governments have subsidized inventors' education.
===========================
How the Government Helped Spur the Microchip Industry
It sits at the heart of virtually every piece of modern IT and
communications technology, including desktops, laptops, smartphones
and tablets: the humble microchip.
Though it seems impossible to imagine life -- much less federal IT --
without the microchip, it was not always inevitable that it would
become such an integral element of daily activity.
Demand from NASA and the Air Force gave a major boost to the fledgling semiconductor industry in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
https://fedtechmagazine.com/article/2018/09/how-government-helped-spur-microchip-industry
Our definitions differ
Without social inputs for various transport means, few capitalists
would exist today. Capitalism has a symbiotic relationship with
socialist thinking. But capitalists tend to think like parasites.
Incorrect. Capitalists work through private means. Socialist beg the >government for favours. What you are referring to are socialists not >capitalists.
socialist thinking
freely set prices in markets in a way that
can serve the best interests of society
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 23:00:37 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Our definitions differ
Without social inputs for various transport means, few capitalists
would exist today. Capitalism has a symbiotic relationship with
socialist thinking. But capitalists tend to think like parasites.
Incorrect. Capitalists work through private means. Socialist beg the
government for favours. What you are referring to are socialists not
capitalists.
Social inputs are about robbing Peter (taxpayers) to pay Paul
(investments in industry, transport systems, we the people, etc), and capitalists tend to profit from government spending to address
this/that issue.
socialist thinking
Endeavors which affect in a beneficial way all/most
citizens/businesses. In US, government spending in R&D, educational institutions, roadway/railway/water projects, and many other ways.
Socialism - Many different sub definitions exist....
What is capitalism in simple terms?
Capitalism is often thought of as an economic system in which private
actors own and control property in accord with their interests, and
demand and supply freely set prices in markets in a way that can serve
the best interests of society. The essential feature of capitalism is
the motive to make a profit. https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2015/06/basics.htm
freely set prices in markets in a way that
can serve the best interests of society
Huh....But capitalists tend to think like parasites
Illegal price fixing occurs whenever two or more competitors agree to
take actions to raise, lower, maintain, or stabilize the price of any
product or service. https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing
As far as I can tell by looking around my area, if you gave everyone
a basic/universal minimum income of say $250, they would immediately
purchase and consume $250 of marijuana, alcohol, and cigarettes, and
still be broke/poor/ignorant/needy.
I have no faith in the human race. Ignorant angry thunder monkeys.
Well, I'd say everyone -1 since I doubt that you would do that. ;)
On 2024-07-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
As far as I can tell by looking around my area, if you gave everyone
a basic/universal minimum income of say $250, they would immediately
purchase and consume $250 of marijuana, alcohol, and cigarettes, and
still be broke/poor/ignorant/needy.
I have no faith in the human race. Ignorant angry thunder monkeys.
Well, I'd say everyone -1 since I doubt that you would do that. ;)
I appreciate the vote of confidence but I'd probably do the same thing.
Angry thunder monkey +1.
but I'd probably do the same thing.
On 2024-07-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
As far as I can tell by looking around my area, if you gave everyone
a basic/universal minimum income of say $250, they would immediately
purchase and consume $250 of marijuana, alcohol, and cigarettes, and
still be broke/poor/ignorant/needy.
I have no faith in the human race. Ignorant angry thunder monkeys.
Well, I'd say everyone -1 since I doubt that you would do that. ;)
I appreciate the vote of confidence but I'd probably do the same thing.
Angry thunder monkey +1.
On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:54:50 -0000 (UTC), Retrograde
<fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-07-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:"On average we do not find direct evidence of greater access to
healthcare or improvements in physical and mental health," the
researchers say in the report. For many participants, "the additional
$1,000 per month alone may not be sufficient to overcome the larger
systemic barriers to healthcare access and reduce health disparities."
In other words, UBI is just one piece of the puzzle that is lifting
the conditions of the poorest Americans.
On 2024-07-24, JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:54:50 -0000 (UTC), Retrograde
<fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-07-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:"On average we do not find direct evidence of greater access to
healthcare or improvements in physical and mental health," the
researchers say in the report. For many participants, "the additional
$1,000 per month alone may not be sufficient to overcome the larger
systemic barriers to healthcare access and reduce health disparities."
In other words, UBI is just one piece of the puzzle that is lifting
the conditions of the poorest Americans.
In other words, everyone needs a couple thousand more bucks per month.
In other words, UBI is just one piece of the puzzle that is lifting
the conditions of the poorest Americans.
In other words,
Actually, the latest research shows that UBI makes people worse off, apart >from the fact that it is impossible and provably so.
https://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finance/shocker-study-reveals-giving-americans-1000-month-has-negative-consequences
.
makes people worse off
In other words,A lower priced health care is needed because the top causes of
bankruptcy is medical expenses. ....sixty-two (62%) of the two
million personal bankruptcies filed each year are the result of
medical debt.
In other words, UBI is just one piece of the puzzle that is lifting
the conditions of the poorest Americans.
In other words, everyone needs a couple thousand more bucks per month.
Actually, the latest research shows that UBI makes people worse off, apart from the fact that it is impossible and provably so.
1.
According to the 3,000-participant, three-year study from the National
Bureau of Economic Research, giving people $1,000 per month increased
leisure time, as recipients spent less time on sleeping, child care, >community engagement, caring for others, and self-improvement.
community engagement
Around American military bases, the average apartment rent is 100% of a >soldier's living allowance. Allowance goes up by $10, rent goes up by
$10 the exact same day.
On 26 Jul 2024 01:05:30 GMT, Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid>
wrote:
1.
According to the 3,000-participant, three-year study from the National
Bureau of Economic Research, giving people $1,000 per month increased
leisure time, as recipients spent less time on sleeping, child care,
community engagement, caring for others, and self-improvement.
Yes, but this other tidbit is most relevant: "First, we consider
adequacy of employment. Many low-income individuals would like to work
more hours but are constrained by not being offered many hours of work
by their employers."
These tidbits need another reference frame...what do those with a few
more bucks do? Life in the suburbs...
Hint - "... less time on sleeping, child care, community engagement,
caring for others..." "Few people know this, but swinging as a fad in America actually began in the 1950s with Air Force officers in
California swapping wives."
community engagement
Few people are engaged with community engagement, and "caring for
others."
In all fairness, another weakness of UBI studies, regardless of if they
end up in the pro or contra camp, is that by definition they do not test
UBI, but only a limited amount of people for a limited time. That is a >weakness in both pro and contra studies.
healthcare
Let's play with the idea
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