• Biblical and historical arguments for the value of nations and kin

    From Christian Nationalist Bible Study@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 19 22:50:31 2024
    XPost: alt.atheism, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh

    1. The Greek word often translated "nations" is actually "ethnos" – ethnic groups. This tells us that God inherently views humanity as divided into
    ethnic groups.

    2. Jesus said in Matthew 24:7, "Ethnic group (ethnos) will rise against
    ethnic group (ethnos), and kingdom against kingdom." This tells us that a
    (or THE) primary source of conflict in the world will be ethnic/racial conflict. Obviously the easiest way to avoid and minimize this type of dangerous conflict is to keep ethnic groups living in their own nations.
    This statement by Jesus could also be used to make the argument that God
    views kingdoms (nations, government divisions) as being inherently based on ethnicity.

    3. Acts 17:26 says that God "made every ethnicity (ethnos) of mankind to
    live on the earth, and has determined their appointed times and the
    boundaries of their habitation." Once again we see that God views humanity
    as divided into ethnic groups. Here we also see clearly stated that God
    views each ethnic group as needing and having boundaries – borders – for the
    land in which they live. Violating this is unwise for the reason explained
    in #2 above (Matt. 24:7).

    4. At the tower of Babel (Gen. 11), God separated mankind into separate, distinct people groups with different languages, for very good reasons.
    God's obvious intention was for all of these groups to be essentially forced (by language barrier) to live separate from each other. To advocate for the idea that there is no good reason to keep people groups separated from each other, or to advocate for mass mixing of distinct people groups, is to claim that God had no good reason to do what He did at the tower of Babel.

    5. Passages like Ex. 34:12, Deut. 7:2-3, and Lev. 20:23 explicitly state the prohibition against mixing with other surrounding people groups (who were ethnically distinct from the Israelites). The purpose of this was two-fold: One, to keep their genetics from mixing with the giants who inhabited the
    land of Canaan at that time (the Bible teaches that these giants were not purely genetically human – a topic all its own). Two, to keep them from adopting any of the evil practices of other people groups. If you read Deut. 4:5-8 it is clear that God wanted the Israelites to carry out their government/law and social engineering according to His design, as an example
    to the other ethnic groups around them who did not understand God's design
    for how humans should live. God also commanded the Israelites to conquer and annihilate the giants of Canaan, both because they were corrupting the
    genetics of humanity, and because they were exceedingly evil and were
    spreading that evil to other groups everywhere they went. For the Israelites
    to mix with other groups who were evil would compromise not only God's plan
    for them, but also their general success as a nation. This clear Biblical wisdom principle could be stated as, "If your group is wiser and more
    righteous than another group, don't mix with them." 1 Corinthians 15:33
    ("Bad company corrupts good morals") and other passages like Proverbs 1:8-19 state this principle plainly. The principle is obviously true on both the individual and the group level. In modern times, for a nation with
    high-trust culture (the nations of Western Civ, Japan, South Korea) to allow large numbers of people from low-trust cultures (with higher endemic corruption) into their countries is a clear violation of this Biblical
    wisdom principle/command. Violating it will result in an overall increase in the amount of evil in the receiving nation, just as it did for the ancient nation of Israel in the instances when they violated it. Nowhere does the
    Bible say that compassion or empathy should override the essential
    commandment to keep evil out of your life and out of your nation.

    I have heard some people quote Old Testament instructions to the Israelites about how they should not mistreat foreigners (e.g. Ex. 22:21) as if that is equivalent to inviting millions of foreigners to come live in your land.
    First of all, the Israelites were clearly instructed not mix with other
    people groups in large numbers (e.g. Ex. 34:12, Deut. 7:2-3, Lev. 20:23). To whatever extent they disobeyed this instruction at times, mixing in
    significant numbers with other people groups that were more evil than them, Israel was always negatively affected by it. Second, the number of
    foreigners living in Israel at any given time was never remotely close to
    the number of foreigners that leftists are thinking of when they think of "foreigners" or immigrants. America is now close to 50% inhabited with
    people who originate from low-trust cultures. That is obviously not what God meant by "foreigners" living in Israel, as is made absolutely clear by the other clear commands He gave to the Israelites about not mixing with other groups/nations.

    Third, the word "foreigners" is not the same as the word "immigrants". The "foreigners" God is referring to in these verses, in many or most cases were people passing through for travel, or small numbers of people from other
    lands who lived temporarily in Israel for whatever reason. Some of them may have lived permanently in Israel but God specifically commanded Israel not
    to do this on a large scale. Because the number of foreigners was relatively small, you can see the wisdom and common sense in the commands to not
    mistreat them or withhold justice from them (governmental), and to help
    provide for them if they are poor (individual). There were commands for Israelites to voluntarily help a vulnerable individual foreigner with no
    family support nearby, as they were to voluntarily help widows and orphans. (These commands were not telling their government to set up a program.) All
    of this makes perfect sense and has no leftist overtones whatsoever as long
    as you understand that the numbers of foreigners were relatively small and
    that the Israelites were also given many clear, strong commands not to
    intermix with other people groups in large numbers.

    In short, there is not a single verse in the Bible that can be used to
    justify or argue for mass immigration of one ethnic group into the land or nation of another ethnic group. On the other hand, there are many Bible
    verses and statements clearly stating that doing so is unwise, and that a
    more righteous (less corrupt, more high trust) people group mixing with a
    less righteous (more corrupt, lower trust) people group will have adverse effects on the more righteous people group.

    6. Sometimes people try to use Galatians 3:28 – "In Christ we are one, there is no male or female, no Jew or Greek" – to claim that the Bible teaches race-blind governmental policy, or that God is race-blind (and
    gender-blind). This is another classic case of blatant cherrypicking,
    ignoring the clearest statements in the Bible on those subjects. Notice that all the points I made above provide a more complete (and thus more accurate) picture of what the Bible says. Points 1-3 above are from the New Testament, and they obviously speak of the realities that should dictate governmental policy, confirming the laws and principles God laid out for the ancient
    nation of Israel in the Old Testament. Galatians 3:28 clearly speaks of spiritual realities ("in Christ"), not biological realities and their consequences. The rest of the Bible makes it extremely clear that men are
    very different than women in certain ways, and outlines different roles for them. No honest Bible student can say that Galatians 3:28 is a license to
    throw out everything the Bible says about gender roles, government,
    ethnicity and borders. Even when it comes to Jews and non-Jews (Gentiles), Jesus and Paul clearly delineated different attitudes toward Jews and
    Gentiles even when it comes to the gospel itself (Matt: 21:33-45, Acts
    3:13-15, 23; 7:51-53; 13:45-46; 18:4-6). It is also obvious that Galatians
    3:28 only applies to the esoteric institution of the Christian church itself ("in Christ"); it obviously is not speaking about the hard physical and practical realities that must dictate the policy of a national government.

    People who use Galatians 3:28 to claim that Christianity is inherently
    cucked are ignoring the clearest Bible statements on these topics, and thus badly misinterpreting the Bible. Yes, leftist-instinct people (a small
    minority of American Christians, 20%, probably much less if you account for race) will try to use a misinterpreted, cherry-picked verse like Galatians
    3:28 to purity spiral toward leftism, but that is why you need competent men running your state religion – to stop that sort of thing. Leftists will use anything no matter how nonsensical to purity spiral toward leftism, so the people in charge just have to say, "No, that is the wrong interpretation,
    we're not letting you teach that," and everything will be fine.

    7. Another silly argument I've heard is, "Acts 2:44-45 means that the Bible teaches communism." (These verses describe how the early Christians had everything in common – many people sold their houses and brought the money
    to the apostles to share with those who had need.) But there is a huge difference between what the early Christians were doing and communism: the early Christians were sharing voluntarily, while communism is involuntary wealth transfer performed by the government at gunpoint. What the early Christians were doing was obviously (if you read the context) caused by an extraordinary outpouring of the love of God in the hearts of the Christians
    via the Holy Spirit. The apostles were not commanding the Christians to sell their houses. Christian churches historically and today do not teach "you
    must sell your house" as doctrine. Historically, Christianity has not taught
    or practiced anything remotely resembling communism as doctrine. In 2 Thess. 3:10 the apostle Paul says, "When we were with you we charged you that
    anyone who does not work should not eat." This command is obviously intended
    to avoid lazy people taking advantage of the generosity of Christians. If
    you combine 2 Thess. 3:10 with Acts 2:44-45 it is clear that Christianity
    does not teach or practice a welfare state, or a leftist state, or a
    communist state. And of course, the rest of the Bible makes it clear that
    God is a huge stickler regarding property rights – the 8th and 10th Commandments being the cornerstone. Jesus called the devil "the thief" and
    said he "comes to steal" (John 10:10). Jesus also told the parable of the talents wherein the guy who failed to multiply his money was called
    "worthless" and had it taken away from him and given to the guy who was best
    at multiplying his money. This is the exact opposite of leftism and
    communism.

    8. One somewhat valid criticism I've heard is, "Many Christians tend to be escapist – they want to hunker down and hide until Jesus comes back to save them, rather than actively fighting evil." My response to this is, "I have observed that tendency in some Christians too. Once again the solution is simple: accurate Bible teaching. The Bible contains a plethora of statements and passages that clearly command Christians to actively fight against and conquer evil." Jesus' message to every church in Revelation (Rev. 2 and 3)
    ends with rewards for those who "conquer" or "overcome" evil – which is obviously impossible to do passively. Hebrews 11:32 commends the heroes of faith for "conquering kingdoms and executing justice." The parable of the talents obviously demands active investment and action to multiply the territory of God's Kingdom, and it says that if you don't do that, if you
    are passive, you are "worthless." Jesus said we are to be the salt of the
    earth (in Bible days salt was smothered on meat to keep it from going
    rotten) and that if salt is not salty enough, it is only fit to be thrown
    away. It is the Christian church's responsibility to stop and limit
    corruption in this world. Obviously this can only be done by taking
    proactive, consistent action against evil. I could go on and on.

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  • From jojo@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 20 05:24:09 2024
    XPost: alt.atheism, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh

    the whole concept of a nation state began only after the french
    revolution i think.

    we need another one that moves beyond the notion of nation state.

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  • From Mike Spencer@21:1/5 to jojo on Wed Nov 20 03:00:48 2024
    jojo <f00@0f0.00f> writes:

    the whole concept of a nation state began only after the french
    revolution i think.

    The Peace of Westphalia, 1648 maybe?

    we need another one that moves beyond the notion of nation state.



    --
    Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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  • From JAB@21:1/5 to the-cross@repost.net on Wed Nov 20 06:17:34 2024
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 22:50:31 -0500, Christian Nationalist Bible Study <the-cross@repost.net> wrote:

    2. Jesus said in Matthew 24:7, "Ethnic group (ethnos) will rise against >ethnic group (ethnos), and kingdom against kingdom." This tells us

    What is the meaning of Matthew 24 7?

    Jesus describes a season in which the world will be in turmoil but
    that alone will not be proof that the end has come. His disciples will
    be persecuted, killed, and hated for His name's sake. False prophets
    will rise and some with them will fall away from the faith.

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  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 20 14:00:17 2024
    XPost: alt.atheism, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh

    jojo <f00@0f0.00f> wrote in news:ccb5ad8d-d879-e174-85bb-474bc2b0abe0 @shinku.aoyagi.konjou:

    the whole concept of a nation state began only after the french
    revolution i think.

    we need another one that moves beyond the notion of nation state.



    Much of the troubles in the middle east
    can be traced back to a group of British and
    French diplomats drawing lines on a map and
    creating national boundaries after WW1.

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  • From Blueshirt@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Wed Nov 20 14:19:30 2024
    Mitchell Holman wrote:


    Much of the troubles in the middle east can
    be traced back to a group of British and
    French diplomats drawing lines on a map and
    creating national boundaries after WW1.

    Not just the middle-east... the British were very good at
    drawing lines everywhere.

    Divide and conquer.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to JAB on Wed Nov 20 16:29:09 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, JAB wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 22:50:31 -0500, Christian Nationalist Bible Study <the-cross@repost.net> wrote:

    2. Jesus said in Matthew 24:7, "Ethnic group (ethnos) will rise against
    ethnic group (ethnos), and kingdom against kingdom." This tells us

    What is the meaning of Matthew 24 7?

    Jesus describes a season in which the world will be in turmoil but
    that alone will not be proof that the end has come. His disciples will
    be persecuted, killed, and hated for His name's sake. False prophets
    will rise and some with them will fall away from the faith.


    Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. He was talking about Xiden and Cackles. Now Trump, the lords angel, is here and will rectify!

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  • From Blueshirt@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 20 15:42:37 2024
    D wrote:

    Now Trump, the lords angel, is here and will rectify!

    Of course, Satan was also an angel... ;-)

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  • From JAB@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 20 12:21:46 2024
    XPost: alt.atheism, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 14:00:17 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com>
    wrote:

    Much of the troubles in the middle east
    can be traced back to a group of British and
    French diplomats drawing lines on a map and
    creating national boundaries after WW1.

    Oil is the causative factor these days...when oil is gone, or not used
    much, their troubles will decrease.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Blueshirt on Wed Nov 20 21:48:04 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, Blueshirt wrote:

    D wrote:

    Now Trump, the lords angel, is here and will rectify!

    Of course, Satan was also an angel... ;-)


    Touché!

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  • From NoBody@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 21 15:42:23 2024
    XPost: alt.atheism, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh

    Hail Satan

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