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In article <k5hr23FkiabU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

On 2023-02-20, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2023-02-20 03:56, Tramlaw wrote:

A New York man filed a class-action lawsuit against Apple on Dec. 24,
alleging that the Apple Watch’s blood oximeter has a “racial bias” >> against individuals with darker skin tones.

So physics has racial bias now?

That about sums it up, yep.

Clinical blood oxygen measurement is with a clip on the
fingertip. I expect if you research that, it will have gone
through rigourous FDA evalution to show it is accurate on all
patients. Did Apple do enough testing of a medical device?

Physics will tell you different molecules have different spectra.
Is the oxyhemoglobin spectra sufficiently distinct from melanin?

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/21/2023 5:41 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

From <https://hms.harvard.edu/news/skin-tone-pulse-oximetry> "It’s been known for decades that skin pigmentation and melanin can affect a pulse oximeter’s ability to accurately measure oxygen saturation."

Apple should just modify their explanation of how their watch works and explicitly state the issue of skin color affecting performance at <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207941#heartrate>. There's no racial
bias here.

It seems like whenever they equivocate, or attempt to explain an issue
without being completely forthcoming, it doesn't work out well.
Certainly they must have tested the watches' functionality on
individuals with different skin tones and been aware of all this when
the watch was first introduced.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <tt32s9$170ns$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

From <https://hms.harvard.edu/news/skin-tone-pulse-oximetry> "It�s been known for decades that skin pigmentation and melanin can affect a pulse oximeter�s ability to accurately measure oxygen saturation."

i posted that earlier today.

Apple should just modify their explanation of how their watch works and explicitly state the issue of skin color affecting performance at

why only apple? every other pulse oximeter is similarly affected

It seems like whenever they equivocate, or attempt to explain an issue without being completely forthcoming, it doesn't work out well.

it works out just fine.

the problem is that there will always be those who want to gain
attention by filing frivolous lolsuits and/or troll.

Certainly they must have tested the watches' functionality on
individuals with different skin tones and been aware of all this when
the watch was first introduced.

they absolutely did.

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple cannot overcome the laws
of physics.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

In article <tt32s9$170ns$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

Certainly they must have tested the watches' functionality on
individuals with different skin tones and been aware of all this when
the watch was first introduced.

they absolutely did.

As you're very fond of saying, no one can know this outside of Apple.

What we do know is that bias in tech is common either through bad design or unconscious bias. I wouldn't be so sure that Apple did indeed verify functionality in all skin tones.

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple cannot overcome the laws
of physics.

Cute.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2023-02-21 15:30, Chris wrote:

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

In article <tt32s9$170ns$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

Certainly they must have tested the watches' functionality on
individuals with different skin tones and been aware of all this when
the watch was first introduced.

they absolutely did.

As you're very fond of saying, no one can know this outside of Apple.

https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_on_Apple_Watch_October_2022.pdf

<<< Subject pools included a wide range of skin types and tones to
ensure that the sensor platform can
accommodate the full range of users and maintain accuracy. At the
wavelengths that Apple Watch uses,
melanin is a strong light absorber — particularly in the green and red
part of the spectrum — potentially
making PPG measurements more difficult in users with darker skin tones.
To account for this, the
Apple Watch sensing platform senses the amount of detected light
signals, and it automatically adjusts
the LED current (and hence the light output), photodiode gain
(sensitivity to light), and sampling rate to
ensure adequate signal resolution across the range of human skin tones. >>>

So, they are aware and make some effort to compensate in the software.
If the complainant is correct, then the compensation seems to not be enough.

What we do know is that bias in tech is common either through bad design or unconscious bias. I wouldn't be so sure that Apple did indeed verify functionality in all skin tones.

"all"? Depends on what "all" means.

A representative variety?

Maybe not. Of 42 test subjects, only 8 were dark skin tones.

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple cannot overcome the laws
of physics.

Cute.

Yes, physics is cute.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <tt39lu$17p10$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

Certainly they must have tested the watches' functionality on
individuals with different skin tones and been aware of all this when
the watch was first introduced.

they absolutely did.

As you're very fond of saying, no one can know this outside of Apple.

i say that when it's applicable. this is not one of those times.

What we do know is that bias in tech is common either through bad design or unconscious bias.

that is correct, however, in this case, it's not an unconscious bias,
but rather a limitation of the technology that also applies to other
oximeters.

I wouldn't be so sure that Apple did indeed verify
functionality in all skin tones.

i would, given that they explicitly stated that they tested the apple
watch with various skin tones, starting with the heart rate sensor in
the original apple watch in 2015, aka series 0.

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple cannot overcome the laws
of physics.

Cute.

people assume apple can while ignoring every other company that is
similarly limited.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: alt.atheism, alt.discrimination, misc.news.internet.discuss
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In article <XnsAFB29158211FE002CE8@0.0.0.2>, P. Coonan
<nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Either way Apple is getting sued for things related to it.

they get sued for all sorts of things. filing a lawsuit is the easy
part.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2023-02-21 15:30, Chris wrote:

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

In article <tt32s9$170ns$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

Certainly they must have tested the watches' functionality on
individuals with different skin tones and been aware of all this when
the watch was first introduced.

they absolutely did.

As you're very fond of saying, no one can know this outside of Apple.

https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_on_Apple_Watch_October_2022.pdf

<<< Subject pools included a wide range of skin types and tones to
ensure that the sensor platform can
accommodate the full range of users and maintain accuracy. At the
wavelengths that Apple Watch uses,
melanin is a strong light absorber — particularly in the green and red
part of the spectrum — potentially
making PPG measurements more difficult in users with darker skin tones.
To account for this, the
Apple Watch sensing platform senses the amount of detected light
signals, and it automatically adjusts
the LED current (and hence the light output), photodiode gain
(sensitivity to light), and sampling rate to
ensure adequate signal resolution across the range of human skin tones. >>>

So, they are aware and make some effort to compensate in the software.

Thanks. Useful to know.

If the complainant is correct, then the compensation seems to not be enough.

What we do know is that bias in tech is common either through bad design or >> unconscious bias. I wouldn't be so sure that Apple did indeed verify
functionality in all skin tones.

"all"? Depends on what "all" means.

A representative variety?

Maybe not. Of 42 test subjects, only 8 were dark skin tones.

Yeah, that's not really enough to make any reliable quantitative analysis.

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On 2023-02-21 19:32, Chris wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2023-02-21 15:30, Chris wrote:

What we do know is that bias in tech is common either through bad design or >>> unconscious bias. I wouldn't be so sure that Apple did indeed verify
functionality in all skin tones.

"all"? Depends on what "all" means.

A representative variety?

Maybe not. Of 42 test subjects, only 8 were dark skin tones.

Yeah, that's not really enough to make any reliable quantitative analysis.

Enough for a model, but higher uncertainties. In the meantime Apple may
have done more measurements. Just don't know.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

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