• Annuity from IRA

    From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 25 13:15:34 2024
    Next month I plan to purchase a single payment immediate annuity from
    an insurance company with funds from my Vanguard IRA.

    I know that if I had two regular non-annuity traditional IRAs, I
    could make my total RMD from either of them, or from both in any
    proportion I desire, just as long as the total withdrawals in the
    year is at least the appropriate RMD for the total value on the
    previous December 31.

    Is the same true if one of the IRAs is an annuity? Suppose for
    example that the total RMD next year is $10,000 and the annuity pays
    out $6,000. Then I would need to withdraw only $4,000 from the
    Vanguard account to fulfill my RMD, correct?

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
    Shikata ga nai...

    --
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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 25 20:58:51 2024
    According to Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>:
    Next month I plan to purchase a single payment immediate annuity from
    an insurance company with funds from my Vanguard IRA. ...

    Is the same true if one of the IRAs is an annuity?

    No. From Pub 590B:

    Annuity distributions from an insurance company.

    Special rules apply if you receive distributions from your
    traditional IRA as an annuity purchased from an insurance company. See
    Regulations sections 1.401(a)(9)-6 and 54.4974-2. These regulations
    can be found in many libraries, and IRS offices, and online at
    IRS.gov.

    Here is 1.401(a)(9)-6:

    https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-26/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-1/subject-group-ECFR6f8c3724b50e44d/section-1.401(a)(9)-6

    And here is 54.4974-2:

    https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-26/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-54/section-54.4974-2

    I think it says that the RMD for the annuity is the annuity payment,
    so long as the term of the annuity does not exceed your life
    expectancy in the Uniform Lifetime Table. But don't take my word for
    it.

    By the way, the conventional wisdom is that unless you have a special
    tax angle, which is unlikely in an IRA, the fees mean an anuuity is
    usually worse than just selling assets as needed and taking
    distributions. Without going into personal stuff, can you tell us what
    the plan is here?


    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

    --
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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to John Levine on Sat Jun 1 12:04:54 2024
    On Sat, 25 May 2024 20:58:51 EDT, John Levine wrote:

    According to Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>:
    Next month I plan to purchase a single payment immediate annuity from
    an insurance company with funds from my Vanguard IRA. ...


    [big snip]

    By the way, the conventional wisdom is that unless you have a special
    tax angle, which is unlikely in an IRA, the fees mean an anuuity is
    usually worse than just selling assets as needed and taking
    distributions. Without going into personal stuff, can you tell us what
    the plan is here?


    Sorry to be so slow in responding -- I've been going
    through some stuff in real life that's cut severely
    into my computer time. I haven't had time yet to chase
    down the references you gave to the regulations. The
    quote from 590-B is depressing and I'll certainly take
    it up with my agent.

    A Single Payment Immediate Annuity (SPIA) is offered by
    many insurance companies; ImmediateAnnuities.com will
    give you free instant quotes from about a dozen. Unlike
    most annuity products, a SPIA is simple: You make one
    premium payment to the insurance company, and they pay
    you a fixed dollar amount every year for your life.(*)
    The payout should be more than you expect to earn in
    your investments -- for instance Thrivent's is a bit
    over 10% of the annuity premium. The percentage is
    higher the older you are when you buy. (That's the
    percentage if I receive money at the end of each year;
    it's less if I receive money at the start of each
    policy year, since over my lifetime I'll receive one
    payment less.)

    How can the company do that and stay in business? That
    10%+ includes not only return on my premium, but also
    my share of return on premiums from all the people who
    die early. So the 10%+/year for life is what the
    underwriters and actuaries think they'll be able to pay
    out to the whole group of people my age who buy
    approximately now, Some of them will die early without
    collecting much, and some of them will live longer and
    collect more of their share of the pot.

    Jane Bryant Quinn gives a plain-language description of
    SPIAs and other types of annuity products in /How to
    Make your Money Last/. She recommends SPIAs for certain
    categories of people, though not from any particular
    company, and recommends against most other types of
    annuities for anyone.

    Obviously you want to pick a really sound insurance
    company.

    I don't know about fees; they weren't in the quote I
    got. Some money from the pot must be used to fund
    operations, but the 10%+ return is the net to me, not
    gross before any fees or expenses. And it's a fixed
    percentage of my initial premium, not a percentage of
    my declining balance.

    Inflation is a concern here: there's no COLA as with
    Social Security. And there's no provision for any lump-
    sum withdrawal or for payment of a death benefit to
    anyone. Because of inflation, I think it would be
    imprudent to sink all or most of my funds into such an
    investment. But inflation protection is what stock
    funds are for. I'll be paying for this out of bond
    funds (and most bonds are also not indexed for
    inflation), not stock funds.

    (*) You can also buy a SPIA that pays the fixed annual
    amount to you for life, or to you or your beneficiary
    for a fixed number of years, whichever period is
    longer. Naturally that fixed amount is less than you
    get if payments are to you alone.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Shikata ga nai...

    --
    << ------------------------------------------------------- >>
    << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
    << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
    << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
    << >>
    << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
    << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
    << are at www.asktax.org. >>
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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 2 20:13:14 2024
    According to Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>:
    Unlike
    most annuity products, a SPIA is simple: You make one
    premium payment to the insurance company, and they pay
    you a fixed dollar amount every year for your life.(*)
    The payout should be more than you expect to earn in
    your investments -- for instance Thrivent's is a bit
    over 10% of the annuity premium.

    Ah, a real annuity that pays out for life rather than an N year fixed
    period one. You're using it as insurance which makes sense.

    I have a lot of relatives who have lived into their 90s so maybe I
    should take a look.
    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

    --
    << ------------------------------------------------------- >>
    << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
    << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
    << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
    << >>
    << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
    << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
    << are at www.asktax.org. >>
    << Copyright (2011) - All rights reserved. >>
    << ------------------------------------------------------- >>

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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to John Levine on Wed Jun 5 19:16:47 2024
    On Sat, 25 May 2024 20:58:51 EDT, John Levine wrote:

    According to Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>:
    Next month I plan to purchase a single payment immediate annuity from
    an insurance company with funds from my Vanguard IRA. ..
    Is the same true if one of the IRAs is an annuity?

    No. From Pub 590B:

    Annuity distributions from an insurance company.

    Special rules apply if you receive distributions from your
    traditional IRA as an annuity purchased from an insurance company. See
    Regulations sections 1.401(a)(9)-6 and 54.4974-2. These regulations
    can be found in many libraries, and IRS offices, and online at
    IRS.gov....

    I think it says that the RMD for the annuity is the annuity payment,
    so long as the term of the annuity does not exceed your life
    expectancy in the Uniform Lifetime Table. But don't take my word for
    it.

    John has it right.

    The issue with an immediate annuity, where the company
    pays you a set annual income for life, is that the
    level payments aren't compatible with the standard
    table used to compute what percentage of your IRA you
    must withdraw each year. Also, it doesn't have a
    clearly defined cash value, since it's a promise by the
    insurance company to pay you an amount for life. So the
    IRS -- or the Treasury Secretary, or Congress --
    decided that the amount paid out each year by an
    immediate annuity would count as that year's RMD on
    that annuity alone. Thus, you would separately compute
    the RMD on any non-annuity IRAs(*) and withdraw that in
    any portion(s) from those non-annuity IRAs to add up to
    that RMD.

    (*)Some forms of annuity IRAs can be lumped together
    with other IRAs for computing an RMD, but I didn't
    pursue that since an immediate annuity doesn't qualify.

    I tried to read and understand the citations on page
    of Pub 590-B, but MEGO (my eyes glazed over). I then
    went for some usually reliable sources:

    (1) https://www.immediateannuities.com/required-
    minimum-distribution/

    "Question: ... I recently transferred $100,000 from my
    $300,000 traditional IRA to buy an immediate annuity.
    Yesterday, I received my first payment from the
    insurance company. How do I calculate my RMD since I'll
    be RMD age soon? Do I combine the $100,000 I
    transferred to the annuity with my $200,000 IRA or is
    the annuity separate from the money remaining in my
    Traditional IRA?

    "The IRS considers your IRA immediate annuity to have
    satisfied its future RMDs, but only for the money
    inside of that immediate annuity. In other words, you
    don't have to include the $100,000 you annuitized in
    your RMD calculations, but you still have to take RMDs
    on the remaining $200,000 in your Traditional IRA."

    (2) And the same story, but briefer, from https://www.kiplinger.com/article/retirement/t045-c000- s004-rmd-tips-when-your-ira-holds-an-annuity.html

    "Say you have $300,000 in an IRA and use $100,000 to
    buy an immediate annuity. The $100,000 is turned into a
    stream of payments and is excluded from the RMD
    calculation. You still would have to figure the RMD for
    the remaining $200,000. But what if the annuity
    payments are more than the required distribution on the
    value of the annuity using the IRS method? Sorry, but
    any excess can't count as part of the RMD on the
    nonannuity part of your IRA."

    That last sentence backs up John's original "No."


    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Shikata ga nai...

    --
    << ------------------------------------------------------- >>
    << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
    << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
    << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
    << >>
    << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
    << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
    << are at www.asktax.org. >>
    << Copyright (2011) - All rights reserved. >>
    << ------------------------------------------------------- >>

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