• Paganini: a rogue server ?

    From llp@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 15 22:52:32 2024
    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the paganini
    server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    A recent example of perfectly themed messages for which a cancel was
    issued via the paganini server:

    Some messages (from the "gegeweb.eu" server) <mn.5a5e7e829d92e3a5.145333@hotmail.com> <mn.42567e82e1c505c9.145333@hotmail.com>

    Some cancels:
    <Cancel.mn.5a5e7e829d92e3a5.145333@hotmail.com> <Cancel.mn.42567e82e1c505c9.145333@hotmail.com>

    A further step in the censorship that Olivier and Ivo (?) want to
    establish has just been taken.
    Messages denouncing these abusive cancellations on fr.usenet.abus.d
    have also just been deleted under a fallacious pretext.
    This group was expressly created to talk about this.

    The cancels (examples): <Cancel.2ptssipgb1hd46nhomjmkeg26fdjt76n1m@news.usenet.ovh> <Cancel.119qsihjvh8q2bbjuv0e77hlv0g91bdq10@news.usenet.ovh> <Cancel.psmssip7jus86bfo8sk0v7o1v4vr9rodcm@news.usenet.ovh> <Cancel.pqgqsiltaa1ob3879stmf2urdm40u01ff3@news.usenet.ovh>


    Of course, the scope of these rogues cancel is very limited
    as no well-configured server will honor them.

    But I think it's important to point out to the server admin
    community and to the users of these servers what the paganini
    server has become.
    As well as its conception of usenet access: "a PRIVILEGE"
    (see <uql3i6$hhm8$1@paganini.bofh.team>)

    Sincerely

    --
    Admin of news.usenet.ovh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anonymous@21:1/5 to llp on Thu Feb 15 22:22:29 2024
    On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 22:52:32 +0100
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:

    Paganini: a rogue server ?

    Ivo can cancel whatever he wants on his server.

    Are you ever going to stop this concern trolling wankfest?

    As well as its conception of usenet access: "a PRIVILEGE"

    Ivo is correct. Usenet access is a privilege, not a right. And Ivo is allowing anonymous, unauthenticated access while you do not. He is clearly supporting free speech, while your actions don't. When you open up and allow unauthenticated access (which
    you won't do) then you might have a point. By requiring authentication you are far more restricting users than Ivo does. Ivo only restricts after the fact. You do by default.

    I don't just say this because I am using Ivo's server. I say it because you are a hypocrite.

    Ivo ==> gives open, anonymous access.
    llp ==> requires signup and identification of users, and can deny such requests in secret with no accountability.

    Ivo can only deny access after the fact. Llp censors up front. So Llp can lie and deny any censorship is going on while Ivo must admit he is blocking an article. So who is being duplicitous and shady here?

    Llp is trying to get the only anonymous Usenet peer (paganini) de-peered. And llp is hypocritically complaining about censorship while trying to get the true free speech peer censored.

    The toxic concern trolling is a form of abuse.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From victor@21:1/5 to Anonymous on Thu Feb 15 23:00:37 2024
    On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 22:22:29 -0000 (UTC), Anonymous wrote:

    On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 22:52:32 +0100 llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:

    Paganini: a rogue server ?

    Ivo can cancel whatever he wants on his server.

    Ivo controls his own server which includes allowing cancels to be
    posted. I really don't see any issue with that as it is up to each server
    to use the cancels or not. Servers should stay up to day as they can.

    But an issue with the actual cancels as they are used to just delete messages the maker of the cancels doesn't like which is clear is
    censorship. Never saw an answer from the senders of these cancels if they cancel on the opinions in the messages. Looks like it is clear that they
    do.

    If you ask they don't answer just say you are someone else. I think
    they can't defend what they do.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From llp@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 15 23:46:55 2024
    Anonymous avait énoncé :
    On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 22:52:32 +0100
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:

    Paganini: a rogue server ?

    Ivo can cancel whatever he wants on his server.

    On *his* server yes.
    These cancels are designed to target Free users
    (one of France's leading ESFs).


    Are you ever going to stop this concern trolling wankfest?

    Oh, you're an undercover French user.
    Eric, Olivier or the other ?


    As well as its conception of usenet access: "a PRIVILEGE"

    Ivo is correct. Usenet access is a privilege, not a right. And Ivo is allowing anonymous, unauthenticated access while you do not.

    And I'm right not to. When I see all the abuse that comes out of his
    server. I'm not surprised he allows these rogues cancels

    He is clearly
    supporting free speech, while your actions don't. When you open up and allow unauthenticated access (which you won't do) then you might have a point. By requiring authentication you are far more restricting users than Ivo does. Ivo only restricts after the fact. You do by default.

    Anyone who wants access can request it.
    It's the same thing for the others server.

    [cut]
    Ivo ==> gives open, anonymous access.
    llp ==> requires signup and identification of users, and can deny such requests in secret with no accountability.

    Everyone can read messages without needing an account.
    To post, you need an account. This seems natural to avoid becoming,
    like the Paganini server, a rogue server.


    Llp is trying to get the only anonymous Usenet peer (paganini) de-peered.

    I ask Ivo only *one* thing: stop posting rogues cancels.
    Do what he want on his local server or via Nocem.
    But third party cancel is an other thing.

    And llp is hypocritically complaining about censorship while trying
    to get the true free speech peer censored.

    There is many many server who permit free speech without
    being a rogue server. Think about it

    --
    Admin of news.usenet.ovh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marco Moock@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 16 08:29:42 2024
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?


    --
    kind regards
    Marco

    Send spam to muell456@cartoonies.org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ray Banana@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 16 11:20:53 2024
    Thus spake Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de>

    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:
    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.
    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    There are basically 4 types of servers when it comes to cancel
    processing:

    1. Those that process all cancel messages
    2, those that process no cancel messages at all
    3. those that only process cancel messages only when the target article
    has a cancel lock and the cancel message has the corresponding cancel
    key.
    4. those that process cancel messages when the target article
    has a cancel lock and the cancel message has the corresponding cancel
    key or the target article has no cancel lock.

    There is no information available on the net on what servers have
    implemented which type of cancel processing and why.


    --
    ПуÌтін — хуйлоÌ
    https://www.eternal-september.org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to Marco Moock on Fri Feb 16 14:15:06 2024
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels. He's complaining about third-party cancels that are issued as an abuse countermeasure because they are acted upon at a few specific servers
    that aren't set up to act upon NoCeMs due to age.

    We all understand what the issue is. Anybody can issue NoCeMs or cancel messages as abuse countermeasures, as long as the issuance itself isn't
    in such great quantity that it's a denial of service attack which is its
    own form of abuse. Any News administrator can act on these. It depends
    on the reputation of the issuer of the countermeasure whether they
    should be acted upon.

    There has never been anything for us to discuss. Accept them, don't
    accept them. The News administrator makes that choice. If the user
    doesn't care for the way the News administrator presents Usenet to him,
    then he should become a user on another server.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From llp@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 16 20:00:40 2024
    Adam H. Kerman a émis l'idée suivante :
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels. He's complaining about third-party cancels that are issued as an abuse countermeasure because they are acted upon at a few specific servers
    that aren't set up to act upon NoCeMs due to age.

    We all understand what the issue is. Anybody can issue NoCeMs or cancel messages as abuse countermeasures, as long as the issuance itself isn't
    in such great quantity that it's a denial of service attack which is its
    own form of abuse. Any News administrator can act on these. It depends
    on the reputation of the issuer of the countermeasure whether they
    should be acted upon.

    There has never been anything for us to discuss. Accept them, don't
    accept them. The News administrator makes that choice. If the user
    doesn't care for the way the News administrator presents Usenet to him,
    then he should become a user on another server.

    I don't share your analysis.

    There was a time when this kind of problem was quickly solved (on the
    fr hierarchy at least) because nobody would have put up with these
    rogue cancels and no administrator worthy of the name would have
    continued to host such a crazy canceller.

    Let me remind you that the problem isn't cancels against real spam.
    It's cancels for imaginary offenses of opinion disguised as the
    fight against spam or flood.
    Like many of the server administrators here, I'm taking part (by
    issuing nocems or rejecting spam at source) in the fight against
    real spam.

    On the other hand, I fight, and will continue to fight, against
    censorship and the petty censors who would like to silence anyone
    who doesn't support them.

    Sincerely

    --
    Admin of news.usenet.ovh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From immibis@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Sun Feb 18 22:54:58 2024
    On 16/02/24 15:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels.

    Cancel-lock is relevant to third-party cancels because it makes
    third-party cancels invalid.

    We all understand what the issue is. Anybody can issue NoCeMs or cancel messages as abuse countermeasures, as long as the issuance itself isn't
    in such great quantity that it's a denial of service attack which is its
    own form of abuse. Any News administrator can act on these. It depends
    on the reputation of the issuer of the countermeasure whether they
    should be acted upon.

    If somebody leaves a list of credit card numbers on an open FTP server
    with the password "password", it's still considered abusive to download
    them and buy things with them, even though it's technically possible to
    do so. (And you will go to jail for it)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to immibis on Mon Feb 19 01:02:13 2024
    On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 22:54:58 +0100, immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    snip
    do so. (And you will go to jail for it)

    that's exactly what the tutanota advertisers have been saying all along <5016fb37148969033692d8a37e8cbfca@dizum.com> "you're all going to jail"

    (using Tor Browser 13.0.9) https://gizmodo.com/tuta-email-denies-connection-to-intelligence-services-1851022465
    Encrypted Email Service Tuta Denies It's a 'Honeypot' for Five Eyes >Intelligence
    For years, Tutanota (which recently rebranded to "Tuta") has been a trusted >email provider. A former Canadian cop has accused it of being a honeypot.
    By Lucas Ropek
    Published November 15, 2023 | Comments (1)
    Photo: Mehaniq (Shutterstock)
    There are only a handful of trusted end-to-end encrypted email providers.
    Of those, Tuta (which has long been known as "Tutanota" but recently >rebranded ) is one of the more well-known. This week, the company found >itself on the defensive after being labeled a "front" for law enforcement
    and intelligence services. In an attempt to clear its name, the company >released a statement denying that it's a honeypot operation, after a former, >highly placed Canadian intelligence official alleged in court that was the >case.
    The cop in question, Cameron Ortis, formerly ran a "highly secret unit" >within the Royal Canadian Mountain Police, but is now on trial for allegedly >having attempted to sell government intelligence to criminals, CBC reports. >Related Content
    Parents Push Congress for Stricter Social Media Laws
    DuckDuckGo's New Free Program Beta Promises to Strip Ad Trackers From Your
    Emails
    Ortis has denied that he was actually attempting to sell state secrets. In >his testimony, which was made public this week, Ortis instead said that he >was involved in a special operation. As part of that operation, agents used >Tuta, which he described as a "storefront"--or a kind of honeypot--to lure in >prospective criminals for surveillance, he said. CBC describes the former >government official's allegations like this:
    ...according to Ortis, [another agent] briefed him about a "storefront"
    that was being created to attract criminal targets to an online encryption >service. A storefront, said Ortis, is a fake business or entity, either >online or bricks-and-mortar, set up by police or intelligence agencies. The >plan, he said, was to have criminals use the storefront -- an online end-to- >end encryption service called Tutanota -- to allow authorities to collect >intelligence about them.
    "So if targets begin to use that service, the agency that's collecting that >information would be able to feed it back, that information, into the Five >Eyes system, and then back into the RCMP," Ortis claimed, in reference to
    the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing alliance, of which Canada is a prominent >member. Ortis has claimed that some unnamed Five Eyes foreign agent >introduced him to the honeypot operation and that he didn't notify his >superiors at the RCMP about it. Follow-up questions about the whole thing >have mostly led him to say things like "I don't recall," and "that's >something I can't talk about."
    Tuta has vehemently denied the allegations against it. In a blog post >published Monday, the company stressed that there was no "backdoor" in its >service and said that Ortis' allegations were a "complete and utter lie":
    This weekend Tutanota was called a "storefront" and a "honeypot" -
    without any evidence. Tutanota - or now Tuta - is the encrypted email
    service with a focus on privacy, open source and transparency. It is not linked to any secret service and there is no backdoor included. It is not even necessary to trust our words, as our entire client code is published
    so that anyone can verify that there is no backdoor.
    In its statement, Tuta added that it would be watching Ortis' "case with >great interest" and that it was "actively working with...[its] legal team
    to fight" the "slanderous claims" that had been made against it.
    It should be pointed out that Tuta does host its client-side code on
    Github, though the company has never fully open-sourced its server-side
    code. The company has stated that this shouldn't matter since all of its >encryption occurs on the client side, and that's what counts when it comes
    to user privacy.
    It's not clear what evidence (if any) Ortis has that Tutanota is a >"storefront," as he's claimed. So far, he's provided none. The story is >interesting, however, for its connection to a verified episode involving
    law enforcement's attempts to backdoor a well-known privacy service. One
    of the people that Ortis is accused of spilling government secrets to is >Vincent Ramos, the former CEO of Phantom Secure--an encrypted phone company >that police say frequently sold its devices to drug cartels and other crime >syndicates. It was previously reported that the FBI once tried to force
    Ramos to install a backdoor into his software so that the agency could spy
    on Sinaloa Cartel members. Canadian law enforcement was notably involved in >the investigation into Phantom Secure and Ramos and assisted with his
    arrest. In 2019, Ramos was sentenced to nine years in prison.
    [end quote]

    good guys vs. good guys . . . "put down your books and pick up a gun" https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stand+for+the+flag+kneel+for+the+cross+meme

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to immibis on Mon Feb 19 04:36:34 2024
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 16/02/24 15:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels.

    Cancel-lock is relevant to third-party cancels because it makes
    third-party cancels invalid.

    Could you put on another sockpuppet that makes you look like less of a
    moron?

    Cancel-lock is IRRELEVANT to third-party cancel because just the first
    party (the author) and the second party (the News administrator) have
    the ability to use the key.

    The use of cancel lock is limited to allowing first- and second-party
    cancels to be accepted with confidence on News sites on foreign
    networks. As it has always been irrelevant to third-party cancels, it
    doesn't "make" third-party cancels anything at all.

    One has nothing to do with the other.

    . . .

    [Nothing to do with anything discussed]

    If somebody leaves a list of credit card numbers on an open FTP server
    with the password "password", it's still considered abusive to download
    them and buy things with them, even though it's technically possible to
    do so. (And you will go to jail for it)

    You are fortunate indeed that nobody has made it illegal to operate a
    that brain of yours whilst being stupid.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Automated Spam Filter@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Mon Feb 19 09:56:31 2024
    On 19/02/24 05:36, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    You are fortunate indeed that nobody has made it illegal to operate a
    that brain of yours whilst being stupid.

    An article with zero semantic content has been detected. Please do not
    clog the system with such articles.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to Automated Spam Filter on Mon Feb 19 10:11:29 2024
    Automated Spam Filter <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 19/02/24 05:36, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    You are fortunate indeed that nobody has made it illegal to operate a
    that brain of yours whilst being stupid.

    An article with zero semantic content has been detected. Please do not
    clog the system with such articles.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to be a 'bot, you'll cross the Breidbart Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable spam. You really really really don't want to be
    doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your killfile. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to llp on Mon Feb 19 22:38:07 2024
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 16/02/24 15:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the >>>>>>paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels.

    Cancel-lock is relevant to third-party cancels because it makes >>>third-party cancels invalid.

    [cut]

    Cancel-lock is IRRELEVANT to third-party cancel because just the first >>party (the author) and the second party (the News administrator) have
    the ability to use the key.

    The use of cancel lock is limited to allowing first- and second-party >>cancels to be accepted with confidence on News sites on foreign
    networks. As it has always been irrelevant to third-party cancels, it >>doesn't "make" third-party cancels anything at all.

    If a server is using Cancel-Lock, third-party cancel will be rejected.

    So, yes, Cancel-lock is relevant to protect a message from third-party >abusives cancels. In fact, that's why it exists at all :-)

    If a server is using Cancel-lock, then it processes 1st and 2nd party
    cancels with the appropriate key. Use of the key means that the News administrator can process these cancels with confidence that they are not
    abuse as he has not set up 1st and 2nd parties as trusted cancellers. This
    is why it has nothing to do with 3rd party cancels.

    A News administrator can still decide that he trusts a 3rd-party canceller
    and process his cancels, without processing any other cancels from
    untrusted parties.

    As little need as there for this discussion, there is absolutely no need
    to discuss Cancel-lock with regard to 3rd-party cancels. Either a server
    is set up to process all cancels or no cancels or cancels issued by
    trusted cancellers only.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From llp@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 19 23:06:10 2024
    Adam H. Kerman a formulé la demande :
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 16/02/24 15:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels.

    Cancel-lock is relevant to third-party cancels because it makes
    third-party cancels invalid.

    [cut]

    Cancel-lock is IRRELEVANT to third-party cancel because just the first
    party (the author) and the second party (the News administrator) have
    the ability to use the key.

    The use of cancel lock is limited to allowing first- and second-party
    cancels to be accepted with confidence on News sites on foreign
    networks. As it has always been irrelevant to third-party cancels, it
    doesn't "make" third-party cancels anything at all.


    If a server is using Cancel-Lock, third-party cancel will be rejected.

    So, yes, Cancel-lock is relevant to protect a message from third-party
    abusives cancels. In fact, that's why it exists at all :-)

    --
    Admin of news.usenet.ovh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to llp on Mon Feb 19 23:16:18 2024
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman a formulé la demande :
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 16/02/24 15:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the >>>>>>>>paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels.

    Cancel-lock is relevant to third-party cancels because it makes >>>>>third-party cancels invalid.

    [cut]

    Cancel-lock is IRRELEVANT to third-party cancel because just the first >>>>party (the author) and the second party (the News administrator) have >>>>the ability to use the key.

    The use of cancel lock is limited to allowing first- and second-party >>>>cancels to be accepted with confidence on News sites on foreign >>>>networks. As it has always been irrelevant to third-party cancels, it >>>>doesn't "make" third-party cancels anything at all.

    If a server is using Cancel-Lock, third-party cancel will be rejected.

    So, yes, Cancel-lock is relevant to protect a message from third-party >>>abusives cancels. In fact, that's why it exists at all :-)

    If a server is using Cancel-lock, then it processes 1st and 2nd party >>cancels with the appropriate key. Use of the key means that the News >>administrator can process these cancels with confidence that they are not >>abuse as he has not set up 1st and 2nd parties as trusted cancellers.

    Yes.

    This is why it has nothing to do with 3rd party cancels.

    This conclusion has nothing to do with what you said earlier.
    On the contrary, your previous comments demonstrate that
    3rd party cancels will be rejected.

    Why would a server operating Cancel-lock reject a 3rd party cancel with
    the Cancel-lock process? If there's no key (or no purported key), then
    why is the cancel message being sent to the Cancel-lock process at all?

    That makes no sense.

    It's like saying that a newgroup control message for a newsgroup in a
    hierarchy that requires it to be a signed control message (per rone's control.ctl as modified by the News administrator) but lacks the
    hierarchy administrator's key gets sent for processing regardless, and
    only then is it rejected for lack of a key. It makes more sense that it's checked first that it matches the criterion for a signed control message
    and THEN gets sent for processing.

    A News administrator can still decide that he trusts a 3rd-party
    canceller and process his cancels, without processing any other
    cancels from untrusted parties.

    He can decide what he wants.

    Bonk

    So I didn't get it wrong.

    But no serious newsmaster will do it,
    because it's an open door to abuse. There is no authenticated cancel
    outside cancel-lock.

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    To authorize a third party to delete articles, there are nocems.
    And these are truly authenticated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From llp@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 19 23:57:28 2024
    Adam H. Kerman a formulé la demande :
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 16/02/24 15:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the
    paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels.

    Cancel-lock is relevant to third-party cancels because it makes
    third-party cancels invalid.

    [cut]

    Cancel-lock is IRRELEVANT to third-party cancel because just the first
    party (the author) and the second party (the News administrator) have
    the ability to use the key.

    The use of cancel lock is limited to allowing first- and second-party
    cancels to be accepted with confidence on News sites on foreign
    networks. As it has always been irrelevant to third-party cancels, it
    doesn't "make" third-party cancels anything at all.

    If a server is using Cancel-Lock, third-party cancel will be rejected.

    So, yes, Cancel-lock is relevant to protect a message from third-party
    abusives cancels. In fact, that's why it exists at all :-)

    If a server is using Cancel-lock, then it processes 1st and 2nd party
    cancels with the appropriate key. Use of the key means that the News administrator can process these cancels with confidence that they are not abuse as he has not set up 1st and 2nd parties as trusted cancellers.

    Yes.

    This is why it has nothing to do with 3rd party cancels.

    This conclusion has nothing to do with what you said earlier.
    On the contrary, your previous comments demonstrate that
    3rd party cancels will be rejected.


    A News administrator can still decide that he trusts a 3rd-party
    canceller and process his cancels, without processing any other
    cancels from untrusted parties.

    He can decide what he wants. But no serious newsmaster will do it,
    because it's an open door to abuse. There is no authenticated cancel
    outside cancel-lock.
    To authorize a third party to delete articles, there are nocems.
    And these are truly authenticated.

    --
    Admin of news.usenet.ovh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From llp@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 20 00:42:28 2024
    Adam H. Kerman a couché sur son écran :
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman a formulé la demande :
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 16/02/24 15:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
    On 15.02.2024 um 22:52 Uhr llp wrote:

    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the >>>>>>>>> paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Why do others process them if they don't use Cancel-lock?

    Not this again. Cancel-lock is irrelevant to third-party cancels.

    Cancel-lock is relevant to third-party cancels because it makes
    third-party cancels invalid.

    [cut]

    Cancel-lock is IRRELEVANT to third-party cancel because just the first >>>>> party (the author) and the second party (the News administrator) have >>>>> the ability to use the key.

    The use of cancel lock is limited to allowing first- and second-party >>>>> cancels to be accepted with confidence on News sites on foreign
    networks. As it has always been irrelevant to third-party cancels, it >>>>> doesn't "make" third-party cancels anything at all.

    If a server is using Cancel-Lock, third-party cancel will be rejected.

    So, yes, Cancel-lock is relevant to protect a message from third-party >>>> abusives cancels. In fact, that's why it exists at all :-)

    If a server is using Cancel-lock, then it processes 1st and 2nd party
    cancels with the appropriate key. Use of the key means that the News
    administrator can process these cancels with confidence that they are not >>> abuse as he has not set up 1st and 2nd parties as trusted cancellers.

    Yes.

    This is why it has nothing to do with 3rd party cancels.

    This conclusion has nothing to do with what you said earlier.
    On the contrary, your previous comments demonstrate that
    3rd party cancels will be rejected.

    Why would a server operating Cancel-lock reject a 3rd party cancel with
    the Cancel-lock process? If there's no key (or no purported key), then
    why is the cancel message being sent to the Cancel-lock process at all?

    That makes no sense.
    A server that uses cancel-lock will, of course, check that the cancel
    that arrives has the right key. And that's why the third-party cancel
    will never succeed in this process: the third party doesn't have the
    right key.

    [cut - Irrelevant comparison]

    A News administrator can still decide that he trusts a 3rd-party
    canceller and process his cancels, without processing any other
    cancels from untrusted parties.

    He can decide what he wants.

    Bonk

    So I didn't get it wrong.

    But no serious newsmaster will do it,
    because it's an open door to abuse. There is no authenticated cancel
    outside cancel-lock.

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    To authorize a third party to delete articles, there are nocems.
    And these are truly authenticated.

    --
    Admin of news.usenet.ovh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to llp on Tue Feb 20 02:24:01 2024
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out of
    this discussion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From llp@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 20 09:45:43 2024
    Adam H. Kerman a exposé le 20/02/2024 :
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out
    of this discussion.

    Ok.
    Have a nice day

    --
    Admin of news.usenet.ovh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From immibis@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Mon Feb 26 20:26:43 2024
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out of
    this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross
    the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be
    doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to immibis on Mon Feb 26 20:38:04 2024
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out of >>this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross
    the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be
    doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From immibis@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Mon Feb 26 22:07:13 2024
    On 26/02/24 21:38, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out of >>> this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross
    the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be
    doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    Longer than it took you to realize you were talking about something you
    knew nothing about?

    You know, I'd never heard of Cancel-Key or Cancel-Lock before this
    thread, either. Unlike you, I was able to figure that out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to immibis on Mon Feb 26 21:12:27 2024
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 26/02/24 21:38, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out of >>>>this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross >>>the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be >>>doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    Longer than it took you to realize you were talking about something you
    knew nothing about?

    You know, I'd never heard of Cancel-Key or Cancel-Lock before this
    thread, either. Unlike you, I was able to figure that out.

    It's in every single article you post through Ray's server, sweetcheeks.
    It has to do with 1st and 2nd party cancels only, not 3rd party cancels.
    3rd party cancels are not verifiable with cancel lock.

    No, you still haven't figured it out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dutch Spammer@21:1/5 to llp on Tue Feb 27 03:05:59 2024
    On 15/02/2024 21:52, llp wrote:
    As you probably know, abusive cancellations are issued via the paganini server and concern the fr hierarchy.

    Paganini is run by a Maori so why are you complaining about it? He can
    do whatever he wants; It's his baby; Kim Dot Com lives there because of
    all the Maoris he can meet.

    Now go and wash your face paying particular attention towards your lips
    before complaining here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricardo Hernandez@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Tue Feb 27 08:07:47 2024
    "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote in
    news:urisrc$2nsnr$1@dont-email.me:

    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out
    of this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross
    the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be >>doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    Usenet is a hard place, Adam. Look at your sacrifices and contributions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricardo Hernandez@21:1/5 to immibis on Tue Feb 27 07:17:33 2024
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote in news:uriolj$2mved$1@dont-email.me:

    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out
    of this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross
    the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be
    doing that through Ray's server.

    Not to worry. Ray is consulting with Marco to fine tune scripts shaping
    usenet content for the future.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It's more interesting to leverage the end results of scripting. Things
    happen for the best sometimes.

    BTW, I appreciate Ivo's service to the community. Thanks Ivo.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to Ricardo Hernandez on Tue Feb 27 14:07:45 2024
    Ricardo Hernandez <rhernandez@unojuan.mx> wrote:
    "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out >>>>of this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross >>>the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be >>>doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    Usenet is a hard place, Adam. Look at your sacrifices and contributions.

    It's so odd that there have been no shortage of people slamming me, but
    there's just this one fuckhead who hides behind would-be anonymizing
    servers, setting up sockpuppet after sockpuppet to do so. It's amazingly cowardly. You truly think this has thwarted my many teams of henchmen
    from finding you in short order to beat you to death?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From immibis@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Tue Feb 27 16:04:58 2024
    On 26/02/24 22:12, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 26/02/24 21:38, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out of >>>>> this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross >>>> the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has
    become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be >>>> doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    Longer than it took you to realize you were talking about something you
    knew nothing about?

    You know, I'd never heard of Cancel-Key or Cancel-Lock before this
    thread, either. Unlike you, I was able to figure that out.

    It's in every single article you post through Ray's server, sweetcheeks.
    It has to do with 1st and 2nd party cancels only, not 3rd party cancels.
    3rd party cancels are not verifiable with cancel lock.

    That's right. 3rd-party cancels fail the cancel-key test, because they
    are illegitimate, sweetcheeks. Servers which check the cancel-key/lock
    will not accept them, honeybun.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to immibis on Tue Feb 27 16:00:38 2024
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 26/02/24 22:12, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 26/02/24 21:38, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop out of >>>>>>this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll cross >>>>>the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted has >>>>>become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want to be >>>>>doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    Longer than it took you to realize you were talking about something you >>>knew nothing about?

    You know, I'd never heard of Cancel-Key or Cancel-Lock before this >>>thread, either. Unlike you, I was able to figure that out.

    It's in every single article you post through Ray's server, sweetcheeks.
    It has to do with 1st and 2nd party cancels only, not 3rd party cancels. >>3rd party cancels are not verifiable with cancel lock.

    That's right. 3rd-party cancels fail the cancel-key test, because they
    are illegitimate, sweetcheeks.

    You're still incredibly confused due to your serious reading comprehension problem. "Legitimate", according to your proprietary definition, isn't
    a prerequisite in the standard for issuing a cancel control message. Syntax is. Your stupid opinion is irrelevant.

    Servers which check the cancel-key/lock will not accept them, honeybun.

    You fail to understand the basic principle of Usenet: News administrators
    run Usenet. The issuer of the cancel message does not run Usenet. A
    News administrator, and not you, makes the rules for the server he
    administers. Use of cancel lock to accept first and second party cancels
    has nothing to do with whether he chooses to process third-party cancellers from a canceller that he's decided to trust.

    As llp pointed out, it may not be a best practice given that the
    mechanism isn't set up to verify the canceller's identity. Regardless,
    it's possible to act upon these cancels.

    This is how Usenet works. It's never illegitimate to send a control
    message. Despite "control" in the name, there is no obligation for the
    News administrator to act upon it.

    Same with checkgroups issued by a hierarchy administrator. A news
    administrator chooses how to offer Usenet to his users, not the
    hierarchy administrator. He has no obligation to process checkgroups. He
    can choose to create a newsgroup locally that the hierarchy
    administrator does not recognize, and he can choose not to create
    specific newsgroups the hierarchy administrator does recognize.

    The hierarchy administrator may be doing all sorts of goofy things that
    are not popular among News administrators that have created newsgroups
    in that hierarchy. Just because he has issued a control message doesn't
    make it legitimate. The only requirement is good syntax. It doesn't have
    to be acted upon by a News administator.

    To understand how all this works, you have to distinguish in your mind
    the difference between the person issuing the control message and the
    person acting upon the control message. They are two different actors.

    I'm sure you won't. It's beyond your understanding.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricardo Hernandez@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 27 23:06:31 2024
    On 27 Feb 2024, "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> posted some news:urkqbg$37rfg$2@dont-email.me:

    Ricardo Hernandez <rhernandez@unojuan.mx> wrote:
    "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
    immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
    On 20/02/24 03:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    llp <contact@usenet.ovh> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman:

    . . .

    The cancel message's author may be verified with PGP-verify, >>>>>>>right?

    If you have seen this type of cancel, please let me know.
    And if you haven't seen any, ask yourself why.

    Fair enough. I don't know enough about this, so I had better drop
    out of this discussion.

    Dearheart, if you don't stop pretending to knowledgeable, you'll
    cross the Moron Index threshold, which means that what you've posted >>>>has become cancellable trolling. You really really really don't want
    to be doing that through Ray's server.

    Just learn to use your brain. Ask me. I'm here to help.

    It took you days to come up with that unoriginal thought.

    Usenet is a hard place, Adam. Look at your sacrifices and
    contributions.

    It's so odd that there have been no shortage of people slamming me,
    but there's just this one fuckhead who hides behind would-be
    anonymizing servers, setting up sockpuppet after sockpuppet to do so.

    PJR needs inspiration. That's why he pokes people like you with sticks.

    It's amazingly cowardly. You truly think this has thwarted my many
    teams of henchmen from finding you in short order to beat you to
    death?

    Death threats now?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Seamus@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Wed Feb 28 20:06:34 2024
    On 27/02/24 17:00, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
    You fail to understand the basic principle of Usenet: News administrators
    run Usenet. The issuer of the cancel message does not run Usenet.

    That's right, my little sugar dumpling. You don't get to run Usenet by
    sending cancel messages, cupcake.

    As llp pointed out, it may not be a best practice given that the
    mechanism isn't set up to verify the canceller's identity. Regardless,
    it's possible to act upon these cancels. >
    This is how Usenet works. It's never illegitimate to send a control
    message.

    You already gave me permission to run a bot that cancels all your
    messages, cutiepeach, so you don't need to repeat it, unless you are
    trying to remind me to get around to it, buttercup?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)