Adam H. Kerman Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:07:45
in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
It's so odd that there have been no shortage of people slamming me,
but there's just this one fuckhead who hides behind would-be
anonymizing servers, setting up sockpuppet after sockpuppet to do so.
It's amazingly cowardly. You truly think this has thwarted my many
teams of henchmen from finding you in short order to beat you to
death?
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
Adam H. Kerman Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:07:45:
It's so odd that there have been no shortage of people slamming me,
but there's just this one fuckhead who hides behind would-be
anonymizing servers, setting up sockpuppet after sockpuppet to do so.
It's amazingly cowardly. You truly think this has thwarted my many
teams of henchmen from finding you in short order to beat you to
death?
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
On 27/02/24 15:17, Eric M wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:07:45:
It's so odd that there have been no shortage of people slamming me,
but there's just this one fuckhead who hides behind would-be
anonymizing servers, setting up sockpuppet after sockpuppet to do so. >>>It's amazingly cowardly. You truly think this has thwarted my many
teams of henchmen from finding you in short order to beat you to
death?
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
He thinks all the people who write negative things about him are all the
same person.
Adam H. Kerman Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:07:45
in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
It's so odd that there have been no shortage of people slamming me,
but there's just this one fuckhead who hides behind would-be
anonymizing servers, setting up sockpuppet after sockpuppet to do so.
It's amazingly cowardly. You truly think this has thwarted my many
teams of henchmen from finding you in short order to beat you to
death?
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?I'm a user on news.eternal-september.org. I would never ask Ray to
refuse to accept posts originating at Dizum. Nor would Ray do so.
Adam H. Kerman Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:13:59:
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
I'm a user on news.eternal-september.org. I would never ask Ray to
refuse to accept posts originating at Dizum. Nor would Ray do so.
This is intersting, Dizum is far worse than Google that has been heavily >filtered, I'm not looking for any logic anymore :)
Frank Slootweg a crit le Tue, 27 Feb 2024 17:08:51
dans news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
Why would he want to change servers (for this 'reason')? Just filter
what you don't want, 'problem' solved.
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved differently
than Big8 usenet.
Adam H. Kerman Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:13:59
in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
I'm a user on news.eternal-september.org. I would never ask Ray to
refuse to accept posts originating at Dizum. Nor would Ray do so.
This is intersting, Dizum is far worse than Google that has been heavily filtered, I'm not looking for any logic anymore :)
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Frank Slootweg a crit le Tue, 27 Feb 2024 17:08:51
dans news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change
yours ?
Why would he want to change servers (for this 'reason')? Just
filter
what you don't want, 'problem' solved.
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved differently
than Big8 usenet.
It has nothing to do with "civilization". And what does "French
usenet" have to do with anything?
FYI, I don't like most (all?) Dizum posts/posters, so I filter
Dizum.
As I said, 'problem' solved.
But each admin is free to (not) carry whatever does (not) please hir
and likewise, each user is free to filter whatever does not please
hir.
Bottom line: Again you're basically advocating to censor stuff you
don't like. It's not going to work.
Adam H. Kerman Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:13:59
in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours
?
I'm a user on news.eternal-september.org. I would never ask Ray to
refuse to accept posts originating at Dizum. Nor would Ray do so.
This is intersting, Dizum is far worse than Google that has been
heavily filtered, I'm not looking for any logic anymore :)
Frank Slootweg:
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved differently >>>than Big8 usenet.
It has nothing to do with "civilization". And what does "French
usenet" have to do with anything?
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have
an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant
on this kind of things.
. . .
Frank Slootweg a écrit le Tue, 27 Feb 2024 19:42:20 dans news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
Get real! Dizum generates nowhere even remotely close to the Google
spam of the previous few months.
There was a discussion not long to determine where the spammers
will go after Google, Dizum seems to be an alternative.
Anyway, it's up to Ray to decide if he carries Dizum posts or not.
It's not upto you, Adam, me or anyone else.
Well can I still say what I want, or do you want to censor me ? :)
Likewise, it's upto the admin of your server (Yamo?) to not carry
Dizum posts, *if* that's what he's doing.
Yes, and I'm happy with that. On the fr.* hierarchy the Dizum posts
were cancelled for years but the bot that did it stopped working unfortunately.
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Frank Slootweg:
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved
differently than Big8 usenet.
It has nothing to do with "civilization". And what does "French
usenet" have to do with anything?
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have
an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic
in public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more
vigilant on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good
speech, lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship
wouldn't have kept my family alive.
. . .
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have
an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >>>public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant
on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech, >>lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't
have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had
said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him,
but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17
in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have
an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in
public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant
on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech,
lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't
have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had
said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him,
but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have >>>>>an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >>>>>public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant >>>>>on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech, >>>>lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't >>>>have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >>>Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had >>>said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >>>country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him, >>>but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
If France wants to promote peace, I'd have been a lot more impressed if
the anti-English hatred hadn't re-asserted itself with the UK's
withdrawal from the European Union and new impositions of trade
restrictions. Gee. How can that possibly go wrong?
Please don't promote speech restrictions in the cause of peace.
Your last sentence is very clear. This cause is used often by those in
power restrict speech.
Those who support restricting speech tend to be on the side of those >currently in power, maybe not realizing that the tables can turn, and >suddenly the side you oppose controls speech.
It's difficult to discuss free speech with non Americans. There is often
the comment such as, "Yes, I support free speech. Except of course for ><insert issue here>.
I'm married to an Australian, I have these conversations now and then with >her family.
Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have an >>>>> european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >>>>> public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant >>>>> on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech, >>>>lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't >>>>have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or
Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had
said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >>> country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him, >>> but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
If France wants to promote peace, I'd have been a lot more impressed if
the anti-English hatred hadn't re-asserted itself with the UK's
withdrawal from the European Union and new impositions of trade
restrictions. Gee. How can that possibly go wrong?
Please don't promote speech restrictions in the cause of peace.
Your last sentence is very clear. This cause is used often by those in
power restrict speech.
Those who support restricting speech tend to be on the side of those currently in power, maybe not realizing that the tables can turn, and suddenly the side you oppose controls speech.
It's difficult to discuss free speech with non Americans. There is often
the comment such as, "Yes, I support free speech. Except of course for <insert issue here>.
Le 28/02/2024 a 18:54, Retro Guy a ecrit :
The U.S. is by no means going the right direction, but fortunately it's more
difficult
to legislate against free speech than it is in many countries.
And you're about to reelect Trump, the world is looking at you.
Let's hope so.
I don't want people I agree with to be censored, and I don't want people I >>> disagree
with to be censored.
This is not what it's about, it's about banning hate speech that can get
people killed. But in the US everybody's in danger anyway.
Words don't kill. If I told you to kill someone, somehow I think you
wouldn't do it.
Our brief discussion here is a great example of my statement that it is hard >for an American to have a discussion about free speech with someone who is >not American. We have a different view of whether the government should have >the power to control speech.
But in the US everybody's in danger anyway.
Really? I wasn't aware that I should feel unsafe, which I don't.
Retro Guy vient de nous annoncer :
Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have an >>>>>> european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >>>>>> public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant >>>>>> on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech, >>>>>lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't >>>>>have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >>>> Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had >>>> said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >>>> country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him, >>>> but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
If France wants to promote peace, I'd have been a lot more impressed if
the anti-English hatred hadn't re-asserted itself with the UK's
withdrawal from the European Union and new impositions of trade
restrictions. Gee. How can that possibly go wrong?
Please don't promote speech restrictions in the cause of peace.
Your last sentence is very clear. This cause is used often by those in
power restrict speech.
Those who support restricting speech tend to be on the side of those
currently in power, maybe not realizing that the tables can turn, and
suddenly the side you oppose controls speech.
They don't even think about it. They think it will keep them
in power or influence.
It's difficult to discuss free speech with non Americans. There is often
the comment such as, "Yes, I support free speech. Except of course for
<insert issue here>.
I agree with you.
But you also have this kind of person in the USA, don't you?
I think of the "woke" or the cancel culture followers.
Thus spake "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?I'm a user on news.eternal-september.org. I would never ask Ray to
refuse to accept posts originating at Dizum. Nor would Ray do so.
And immibis is using E-S, too. Just saying ...
This is not what it's about, it's about banning hate speech that can get >people killed. But in the US everybody's in danger anyway.
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Frank Slootweg:
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved differently
than Big8 usenet.
It has nothing to do with "civilization". And what does "French
usenet" have to do with anything?
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have
an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in
public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant
on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech,
lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't
have kept my family alive.
Your last sentence is very clear. This cause is used often by those in
power restrict speech.
Those who support restricting speech tend to be on the side of those currently in power, maybe not realizing that the tables can turn, and suddenly the side you oppose controls speech.
It's difficult to discuss free speech with non Americans. There is often
the comment such as, "Yes, I support free speech. Except of course for <insert issue here>.
Eric M wrote:
Le 28/02/2024 à 16:02, Retro Guy a écrit :
It's difficult to discuss free speech with non Americans. There is often >>> the comment such as, "Yes, I support free speech. Except of course
for <insert issue here>.
It's difficult because your country is doing this :
<https://observer.com/2022/02/book-banning-is-increasing-across-the-united-states-a-book-burning-in-tennessee/>
So free speech for who ? :)
I agree that this is an issue. Most of what is reported as book
"banning" in the U.S. currently is removing books from schools. The
books are still available to
purchase or read.
Seeing what you link to supports the idea of, "What happens when the
other side
controls speech?"
The U.S. is by no means going the right direction, but fortunately it's
more difficult
to legislate against free speech than it is in many countries.
Eric M wrote:
This is not what it's about, it's about banning hate speech that can
get people killed. But in the US everybody's in danger anyway.
Words don't kill. If I told you to kill someone, somehow I think you
wouldn't do it.
On 28/02/24 16:02, Retro Guy wrote:
Your last sentence is very clear. This cause is used often by those in
power restrict speech.
Those who support restricting speech tend to be on the side of those
currently in power, maybe not realizing that the tables can turn, and
suddenly the side you oppose controls speech.
When evil people are in power, they're going to restrict speech just as
well no matter whether you restricted them from speaking when they
weren't in power or not.
It's difficult to discuss free speech with non Americans. There is often
the comment such as, "Yes, I support free speech. Except of course for
<insert issue here>.
Maybe your refusal to accept their opinion just indicates closedmindedness.
On 27 Feb 2024, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> posted some news:urldpk.vd4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net:
FYI, I don't like most (all?) Dizum posts/posters, so I filter
Dizum.
As I said, 'problem' solved.
That's the beauty of usenet. Everyone is free to set their own limits
of enlightenment.
On 27/02/24 17:59, Ray Banana wrote:
Thus spake "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't see Dizum posts on my server, maybe you should change yours ?
I'm a user on news.eternal-september.org. I would never ask Ray to
refuse to accept posts originating at Dizum. Nor would Ray do so.
And immibis is using E-S, too. Just saying ...
Oh hey, Ray. Since this user believes (<url0v6$39kqa$1@dont-email.me>)
it's fine for anyone to post cancels of any message for any reason,
since he trusts servers to ignore them, will it bother you too much if I >automatically post cancels to all of his messages?
Does the E-S server propagate them even though it doesn't process them
as cancels itself?
And immibis is using E-S, too. Just saying ...Oh hey, Ray. Since this user believes (<url0v6$39kqa$1@dont-email.me>)
it's fine for anyone to post cancels of any message for any reason,
since he trusts servers to ignore them, will it bother you too much if
I automatically post cancels to all of his messages?
Does the E-S server propagate them even though it doesn't process them
as cancels itself?
It's sad to see people pushing for their own rights to be limited.
On 28/02/24 18:50, Retro Guy wrote:
It's sad to see people pushing for their own rights to be limited.
Do you think I should have any responsibilities at all? For example
should I have the responsibility to not punch you in the face? It's sad
to see that you want to limit your won face-punching rights!
Eric M wrote:
Le 28/02/2024 18:54, Retro Guy a crit :
The U.S. is by no means going the right direction, but fortunately it's
more difficult
to legislate against free speech than it is in many countries.
And you're about to reelect Trump, the world is looking at you.
Let's hope so.
I don't want people I agree with to be censored, and I don't want people I >>> disagree
with to be censored.
This is not what it's about, it's about banning hate speech that can get
people killed. But in the US everybody's in danger anyway.
Words don't kill. If I told you to kill someone, somehow I think you
wouldn't do it.
Our brief discussion here is a great example of my statement that it is hard for an American to have a discussion about free speech with someone who is not American. We have a different view of whether the government should have the power to control speech.
But in the US everybody's in danger anyway.
Really? I wasn't aware that I should feel unsafe, which I don't.
On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 20:24:50 +0100, immibis wrote:
On 28/02/24 16:02, Retro Guy wrote:
Your last sentence is very clear. This cause is used often by those
in power restrict speech.
Those who support restricting speech tend to be on the side of those
currently in power, maybe not realizing that the tables can turn,
and suddenly the side you oppose controls speech.
When evil people are in power, they're going to restrict speech just
as well no matter whether you restricted them from speaking when they
weren't in power or not.
It's difficult to discuss free speech with non Americans. There is
often the comment such as, "Yes, I support free speech. Except of
course for <insert issue here>.
Maybe your refusal to accept their opinion just indicates
closedmindedness.
There is a difference between accepting their opinion and agreeing
with their opinion.
Everyone should have the right to express their opinion, but that
doesn't mean everyone else must agree with it.
On 28/02/24 15:21, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have >>>>>an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >>>>>public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant >>>>>on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech, >>>>lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't >>>>have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >>>Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had >>>said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >>>country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him, >>>but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
That's exactly Eric's point. Counterspeech didn't stop Hitler.
On 28/02/24 15:21, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have >>>>> an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >>>>> public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant >>>>> on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech, >>>> lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't
have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >>> Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had
said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >>> country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him, >>> but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
That's exactly Eric's point. Counterspeech didn't stop Hitler.
Oh hey, Ray. Since this user believes (<url0v6$39kqa$1@dont-email.me>)
it's fine for anyone to post cancels of any message for any reason,
since he trusts servers to ignore them, will it bother you too much if I >automatically post cancels to all of his messages?
Does the E-S server propagate them even though it doesn't process them
as cancels itself?
On 28/02/24 01:05, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Frank Slootweg:
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved
differently than Big8 usenet.
It has nothing to do with "civilization". And what does "French
usenet" have to do with anything?
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We
have an european point of view, here you cannot say something
antisemitic in public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we
are more vigilant on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good
speech, lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship
wouldn't have kept my family alive.
Counterspeech hasn't prevented America from inching ever closer
towards committing some atrocity of comparable magnitude, either.
immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
On 28/02/24 15:21, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We >>>>>>have an european point of view, here you cannot say something >>>>>>antisemitic in public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe
we are more vigilant on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good >>>>>speech, lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech.
Censorship wouldn't have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge
Analytica or Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way.
Maybe if Hitler had said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in >>>>concentrations camps and my country will be in ruins in 12 years" >>>>people wouldn't have vote for him, but he said everything would be >>>>fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
That's exactly Eric's point. Counterspeech didn't stop Hitler.
Hitler was literally arrested for attempting a coup. This didn't stop
him.
On 28 Feb 2024, immibis <news@immibis.com> posted some >news:uro16r$u3c$6@dont-email.me:
On 28/02/24 01:05, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Frank Slootweg:
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved
differently than Big8 usenet.
It has nothing to do with "civilization". And what does "French
usenet" have to do with anything?
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We
have an european point of view, here you cannot say something
antisemitic in public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we
are more vigilant on this kind of things.
I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good
speech, lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship
wouldn't have kept my family alive.
Counterspeech hasn't prevented America from inching ever closer
towards committing some atrocity of comparable magnitude, either.
Murdering hundreds of thousands of natives and stealing their country
wasn't an atrocity? Then the "conquering" descendents surrender the
country to a bunch of third world invaders without firing a shot like
the French?
What kind of insane behavior is that?
Starting a "civil war" because Eastern bankers wanted their cut of the
slave trade revenue, using the pretense of "freeing slaves" wasn't an >atrocity? Then allowing the 13% descendents of the "freed slaves" to
totally destroy the foundation of business to buyer protocols by
robbery which goes unpunished?
Those kinds of atrocities?
immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
On 28/02/24 15:21, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:05:17:
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have >>>>>> an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in >>>>>> public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant >>>>>> on this kind of things.I am an American and a Jew. Bad speech may be countered by good speech, >>>>> lies by truth, dangerous speech by counterspeech. Censorship wouldn't >>>>> have kept my family alive.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >>>> Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had >>>> said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >>>> country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him, >>>> but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
That's exactly Eric's point. Counterspeech didn't stop Hitler.
Hitler was literally arrested for attempting a coup. This didn't stop him.
Godwin
Frank Slootweg a crit le Tue, 27 Feb 2024 19:42:20 dans news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
Get real! Dizum generates nowhere even remotely close to the Google
spam of the previous few months.
There was a discussion not long to determine where the spammers
will go after Google, Dizum seems to be an alternative.
Anyway, it's up to Ray to decide if he carries Dizum posts or not.
It's not upto you, Adam, me or anyone else.
Well can I still say what I want, or do you want to censor me ? :)
Likewise, it's upto the admin of your server (Yamo?) to not carry
Dizum posts, *if* that's what he's doing.
Yes, and I'm happy with that. On the fr.* hierarchy the Dizum posts
were cancelled for years but the bot that did it stopped working unfortunately.
On 28/02/24 00:06, Ricardo Hernandez wrote:
On 27 Feb 2024, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> posted some news:urldpk.vd4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net:
FYI, I don't like most (all?) Dizum posts/posters, so I filter
Dizum.
As I said, 'problem' solved.
That's the beauty of usenet. Everyone is free to set their own limits
of enlightenment.
It's not beautiful, it's just the way it is. People are not even
informed that they are speaking into the void, or why.
Frank Slootweg a crit le Tue, 27 Feb 2024 19:41:31 dans news.admin.net-abuse.usenet :
This is a question of civilization, French usenet evolved differently
than Big8 usenet.
It has nothing to do with "civilization". And what does "French
usenet" have to do with anything?
You have an american point of view, with the first amendement. We have
an european point of view, here you cannot say something antisemitic in public, we had a sort of war a while ago so maybe we are more vigilant
on this kind of things.
FYI, I don't like most (all?) Dizum posts/posters, so I filter Dizum.
As I said, 'problem' solved.
But people answer to people using Dizum, so your filter is useless.
But each admin is free to (not) carry whatever does (not) please hir
and likewise, each user is free to filter whatever does not please hir.
Yes, of course, according to the laws of his country.
Bottom line: Again you're basically advocating to censor stuff you
don't like. It's not going to work.
It's not what I don't like, it's a server that has a long history of
abuse (exactly like Google, but you did not cry to censorship when
people cleaned the Google shit), do they still have "sewer output" in
their path ?
That would be a case for law inforcement. Canceling (read: *trying*
to cancel) - or filtering it at the server level - this stuff isn't
going to make it go away.
Le 29/02/2024 14:12, Frank Slootweg a crit :
Anyway, if the spam starts again, the admins can take similar action
as they did for the Google Groups spam.
I'm sure they will, but what about free speech for spammers ? :)
And once again, stuff you don't like isn't spam, it's just stuff you don't like.
I totally agree with that, but there can be real abuse in a text message.
I don't mean just insults, I mean saying someone is pedophile with his physical address (this is only an example that I saw years ago, from
Dizum).
Yes, you can say what you want and i can say what I want if I don't
agree with it (all within limits).
That's great, I have nothing against this.
Like for the other cancels, canceling stuff you don't like isn't the right way, but 'we' have been there umpteen times, so there's not need
for yet another round.
There has been repeted abuse from Dizum, maybe they manage this better
than before (they didn't do it at all so it can only get better).
Am 29.02.2024 schrieb Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>:
That would be a case for law inforcement. Canceling (read: *trying*
to cancel) - or filtering it at the server level - this stuff isn't
going to make it go away.
Making it harder to inject that is indeed a way to have less of that.
Since aioe is down and mixmin doesn't allow unauthenticated posting,
such stuff in de.* decreased significantly.
Le 29/02/2024 15:30, Frank Slootweg a crit :
I totally agree with that, but there can be real abuse in a text message. >> I don't mean just insults, I mean saying someone is pedophile with his
physical address (this is only an example that I saw years ago, from
Dizum).
That would be a case for law inforcement. Canceling (read: *trying* to cancel) - or filtering it at the server level - this stuff isn't going
to make it go away.
Dizum is an anonymizer, that's where the problem is.They have no logs so
they can't give them to the justice. UDP was made to put pressure on rogue servers, but with no cancels, no UDP, no law.
Le 29/02/2024 14:34, Frank Slootweg a crit :
I'm Dutch and live in The Netherlands, so I don't "have an american
point of view".
You can have an American point of view everywhere in the world :)
As to your example, you apparently have a misunderstanding about the (correct) American meaning of "freedom of speech", because your example
has nothing to do with that. However, since many (most?) Americans also
do not know the correct meaning of "freedom of speech" (in an American legal context), your misunderstanding is understandable.
Explain to me (maybe in a better group).
But people answer to people using Dizum, so your filter is useless.
You can filter responses to posts from Dizum, but the question is if
that is desirable in all cases. When someone responds to unwanted
material, that does not automatically mean that that response is also unwanted.
So I will see only a small part of what is written in the group and that's not better.
I don't see 'spam' (mostly - but not neccessarily- commercial content, posted in bulk quantities) from Dizum.
No, for the moment it's only for insults with multiple identities,
moderatly great.
As to "the Google shit": Canceling 'spam' isn't abuse, because it's defined action *against* abuse. So there was no reason whatsoever to
"cry to censorship". So please don't let your misunderstanding
misrepresent my position.
Sometimes the limit is thin, in fr.* we had a guy who posted his "mathematical discoveries" with Google, ten or twenty times a day, it
meant nothing and made the group unreadable, so we had to cancel him. Now
we don't have to do it anymore.
And yes, Dizum still has "sewer" (not "sewer output") in their path.
That's great.
Le 29/02/2024 16:19, Frank Slootweg a crit :
You can have an American point of view everywhere in the world :)
True, but I don't have an American point of view (whatever that is),
but a European/Dutch one (whatever that is).
[...]
Simply put, according to the US First Amendment (to the US
Constitution)
So maybe you have an American point of view after all :)
Le 29/02/2024 17:01, Frank Slootweg a crit :
Dizum is an anonymizer, that's where the problem is.They have no logs so >> they can't give them to the justice. UDP was made to put pressure on rogue >> servers, but with no cancels, no UDP, no law.
Anonimity is widespread, also on ('modern') social media. We (society) and law enforcement will have to live/deal with the undesirable consequences of that.
Social media have logs, you are never anonymous, even on Twitter (or
whatever it's called now).
OTOH, their (Dizum's) Usenet F.A.Q. indicates that they will work with law enforcement and that they have ways of disabling a user's posting ability.
So maybe it's better than before.
On 29 Feb 2024, Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> posted some >news:eCZqkD1SlXApdN1fp4H7_t0KIKg@jntp:
Le 29/02/2024 A 15:30, Frank Slootweg a A crit :
I totally agree with that, but there can be real abuse in a text
message. I don't mean just insults, I mean saying someone is
pedophile with his physical address (this is only an example that I
saw years ago, from Dizum).
Obviously you've never visited alt.checkmate where pedo accusations galore >spew from google, giganews, blocknews and others.
That would be a case for law inforcement. Canceling (read: *trying*
to
cancel) - or filtering it at the server level - this stuff isn't
going to make it go away.
Dizum is an anonymizer, that's where the problem is.They have no logs
so they can't give them to the justice. UDP was made to put pressure
on rogue servers, but with no cancels, no UDP, no law.
Definitions of "rogue" tend to shift fitting an emotional state of the >moment.
Consider this, some dizum posters work in law enforcement.
Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 29/02/2024 à 14:34, Frank Slootweg a écrit :
I'm Dutch and live in The Netherlands, so I don't "have an american
point of view".
You can have an American point of view everywhere in the world :)
True, but I don't have an American point of view (whatever that is),
but a European/Dutch one (whatever that is).
...
Sometimes the limit is thin, in fr.* we had a guy who posted his
"mathematical discoveries" with Google, ten or twenty times a day, it
meant nothing and made the group unreadable, so we had to cancel him. Now
we don't have to do it anymore.
If the BI is above limit for the fr.* hierarchy or the group in
question, it is cancelable spam. If not, you'll have to (try to) filter
it or/and take it up with the admin in question.
Funny that the BI has a name that is also that of a major US source of >disinformation, not unlike a certain German newspaper from the interwar >years. Of cause A Breitbart was adopted and the BI was made by S
Breitbart, whom I guess was not a blood relative.
Funny that the BI has a name that is also that of a major US source of >disinformation, not unlike a certain German newspaper from the interwar >years. Of cause A Breitbart was adopted and the BI was made by S
Breitbart, whom I guess was not a blood relative.
I don't think that works, look what happened with Cambridge Analytica or >>Twitter, the lies always win if you do it this way. Maybe if Hitler had >>said "I'm going to kill 6 millions people in concentrations camps and my >>country will be in ruins in 12 years" people wouldn't have vote for him, >>but he said everything would be fine, and people believed him.
Uh, his book was published long before he was first elected. It was
known whom he was.
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