• Re: Alternative to NNTP / Usenet

    From Aioe@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 14 21:24:55 2022
    XPost: news.software.nntp, news.admin.peering

    Il 14/09/22 20:05, G.K. ha scritto:
    If there were available open source server software for a new protocol similar to NNTP, with optional moderated and secret hierarchies, and a built-in mixnet for secret, encrypted hierarchies, which of you would
    install and run the server?

    i may consider to run that service not before having seen that program

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Winston@21:1/5 to G.K. on Thu Sep 15 04:14:22 2022
    [This ended up being kinda long...]

    "G.K." <gk@g.k> writes:
    If there were available open source server software for a new protocol similar to NNTP, with optional moderated and secret hierarchies, and a built-in mixnet for secret, encrypted hierarchies, which of you would
    install and run the server?

    If the servers know a hierarchy exists, then it's not really secret,
    just maybe not publicized or maybe hidden from a search or list. If
    they don't, then it's impossible for the server to specify which
    hierarchies it carries, impossible for users to ask the server for
    articles in the group, etc. Users would have to recieve the entire
    encrypted feed and use something like hashtags (though, yes, there have
    in the past been people who proposed using hashtags instead of newsgroup
    names for USENET).

    Absent more details, I'd be concerned such a system would be used for distributing child pornography or for other illegal or unsavory
    activities.

    If the secrecy is at user level (unreadable on the server or by anyone
    else without the appropriate key), I wouldn't trust the content was safe
    to carry. If the encryption is only between servers, then I don't see
    how it's useful since one could simply read the articles from the
    server, and governments or other entities need only run a server to see everything.

    If anyone can join any group, then the keys are widely available, so
    such a protocol would just be extra work to distribute articles. If
    not, then you're asking for a new, secure, essentially private
    communication channel for unknown groups of users, and (IMHO) secure,
    private, end-to-end communication is paid for and handled adequately by existing services, not a business I'd expect USENET admins to add (and certainly not for free).

    Just my initial reaction... Continuing to specifics:

    The protocol design would use special cryptographic primitives to
    enable secret hierarchies without revealing the content of the groups therein.

    This sounds like you're saying the servers would know the names of the
    secret hierarchies and maybe the newsgroup names, but the articles would
    be encrypted. OK.

    All mix messages would be broken up into standard-size packets and
    delay switch routed randomly to obfuscate origin.

    This sounds like your goal is to make senders anonymous and thus unable
    to be held responsible for their actions if, for example, they posted
    child pornography.

    Client proof-of-work would be used to mitigate spam and flood attack. Optional signup and authentication would be available for admins who
    don't want random anonymous users and the spam headaches.

    Signup and authentication hasn't prevented spam and floods in USENET.

    If I'm reading right, your protocol requires every node on the network,
    for every (mix?) article, to reassemble the articles from the pieces transmitted via randomized distribution, which requires being able to
    determine when one has all the pieces, and then run a time consuming verification test for every article. Distribution is of fragments, not
    whole articles as USENET does.

    Article floods with invalid encryption could still be injected into the
    flow, but now it's expensive to determine that there's a flood.
    Verification can't be skipped: no server can be certain their peer of
    the moment is trustworthy and has authenticated its traffic because
    peers are randomized and the current peer might be injecting trash.
    Unless the server has some way of checking and does check every article
    in its feed, it's at risk of passing on a bogus article or fragment,
    meaning the origin could be successfully obfuscated and you won't know
    what server was responsible.

    If a server can and does check the incoming feed from its peer, it could
    at least detect if the peer is untrustworthy, but if the cryptographic verification requires the entire article and articles are broken up into standard size packets (fragments) distributed via various servers, then
    the receiving peer can't immediately detect whether the sending peer is submitting flood fragments.

    Suppose the server could immediately detect a flood from a peer. What
    would it do with that information? Discarding everything that peer just submitted is probably reasonable. Tell other servers? If you create a mechanism to ban a server, how do you know that the ban request isn't an unjustified attack on that server?

    In conclusion, based solely on the details you posted, it sounds like
    posting an encrypted article to USENET and using standard NNTP
    distribution would be better if such articles are propagated. Similar reasoning decades ago was the primary incentive for creating end-to-end encryption in which the data packets would flow over insecure Internet
    links.
    -WBE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Seth Hurst@21:1/5 to Aioe on Sat Sep 17 01:24:27 2022
    XPost: news.software.nntp, news.admin.peering

    On Wed, 14 Sep 2022 21:24:55 +0200, Aioe wrote:

    Il 14/09/22 20:05, G.K. ha scritto:
    If there were available open source server software for a new protocol
    similar to NNTP, with optional moderated and secret hierarchies, and a
    built-in mixnet for secret, encrypted hierarchies, which of you would
    install and run the server?

    i may consider to run that service not before having seen that program

    Always down for trying new tech but like messages before me would have to
    see the server and maybe a demo server to see how it actuly works.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From G.K.@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 17 12:16:40 2022
    XPost: news.software.nntp, news.admin.peering

    Hi Stefan!

    If there were available open source server software for a new protocol similar to NNTP, with optional moderated and secret hierarchies,

    What's the use of secret hierarchies?

    How many people would actually run such server?

    A fraction of the people who run NNTP servers.

    Would there be a demand

    No.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Postiljon Petskin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 20 19:45:55 2023
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
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    On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 1:58:17 AM UTC+2, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:
    On 14/09/2022 19:05, G.K. wrote:


    If there were available open source server software for a new protocol similar to NNTP, with optional moderated and secret hierarchies, and a built-in mixnet for secret, encrypted hierarchies,
    It's a very silly suggestion especially when everybody knows that moderated newsgroups and newsgroups that have been filtered by the Neo-Nazi, Mafia and Black-September supporting news-masters and mistresses. Newsgroups are in decline and there is no
    point in wasting any more time to create yet more of them that are moderated and secretive. What for? Nobody is going to subscribe for them. People are too wise these days to bend backwards to support Neo-Nazi or mafia financed newsgroups.

    What is required is to boycott news servers that are hell-bent to filter posts that they don't agree with. They might as well shut it down and do something else with their remaining lives. Mind you they are very old and it's a matter of time when they
    may not be around and so the newsgroups that they are running may also be die with them. Look at what happened to news.albasani.net. The owner died of cocaine abuse and AIDS and so did his servers.


    Arrest
    Dictator Putin

    We Stand
    With Ukraine

    Stop Putin
    Ukraine Under Attack

    --
    We do not live to ourselves and we do not die to ourselves; if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord.

    So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.

    Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)