Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt
totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never
lets a political grudge go:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt
totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never
lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring
the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori
wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First
coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the
establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body
elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously
established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local
communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without
referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour
manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we
do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that
should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government
will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic
process is restored."
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring
the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori
wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First
coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the
establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local
communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without
referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour
manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we
do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government
will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring
the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori
wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First
coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the
establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour
manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we
do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government
will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying
before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be
able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >interference from central government, but now the government has been
formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix
their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said
nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading
and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay /
Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they
were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities
they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some
roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge
and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington.
In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that
made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a
poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping
they will change their mind.
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when
they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not
putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . .
. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have
not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and
stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to
let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long
. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >politicians up . . . - see:. >https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a
government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they
insist on using it!
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori
wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First
coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour
manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we
do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be
able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said
nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading
and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay /
Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they
were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities
they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some
roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge
and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington.
In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that
made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a
poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping
they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing
less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori
Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior
to the election.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash andIf the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when
they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not
putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . .
. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have
not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and
stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to
let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long
. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>politicians up . . . - see:. >>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a
government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they
insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it
would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would
have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in
Parliament.
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Where have you been? There has been significant opposition in affected areas. And then there is the matter of an election where apolicy was clearly announced and thae party that announced is now in power.
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said
nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they
were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington.
In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a
poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping
they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing
less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior
to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there
has been little opposition to those decisions.
If the local populationThe government is simply enacting what it promised. What is wrong with that other than to those for whom partisan politics is the driving force in their lives?
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could
expect to be punished at the next election - but now the government is >demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation -
they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local
body election.
Mostly off topic distraction. However the word undemocratic was used - but misdirected. What was undemocratic was the Labour government forcing councils to put boards in place that the local electorate were not consulted on - "democracy" a great word but way off track.And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when
they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not
putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . .
. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have
not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and
stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long
. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it
would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would
have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in
Parliament.
un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party
leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and
above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political
experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas
organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus
- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself
courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx
nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe
candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at
all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the
financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not
discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been
arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that
the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert
advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be
renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial
salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The
Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen
under Trump's USA election.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would,
that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by
three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas
Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal
promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the
coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:Where have you been? There has been significant opposition in affected areas. >And then there is the matter of an election where apolicy was clearly announced
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said
nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they
were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington. >>>>In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a
poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing
less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior
to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there
has been little opposition to those decisions.
and thae party that announced is now in power.
Democracy at its best some would say.
If the local populationThe government is simply enacting what it promised. What is wrong with that >other than to those for whom partisan politics is the driving force in their >lives?
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could
expect to be punished at the next election - but now the government is >>demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation -
they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local
body election.
Mostly off topic distraction. However the word undemocratic was used - but >misdirected. What was undemocratic was the Labour government forcing councils >to put boards in place that the local electorate were not consulted on - >"democracy" a great word but way off track.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . .
. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have
not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and
stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long >>>>. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it
would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would
have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in
Parliament.
un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party
leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and
above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political
experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas
organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus
- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself
courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx
nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at
all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the
financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that
the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be
renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial
salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The
Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen
under Trump's USA election.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would,
that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas
Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal
promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the
coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 22:41:09 -0000 (UTC), TonyIn the local electorate that the council covers, where else?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:Where have you been? There has been significant opposition in affected areas. >>And then there is the matter of an election where apolicy was clearly >>announced
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote: >>>>>>
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said >>>>>nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they >>>>>were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington. >>>>>In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a >>>>>poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing
less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior >>>>to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there >>>has been little opposition to those decisions.
and thae party that announced is now in power.
Democracy at its best some would say.
If the local populationThe government is simply enacting what it promised. What is wrong with that >>other than to those for whom partisan politics is the driving force in their >>lives?
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could >>>expect to be punished at the next election - but now the government is >>>demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation - >>>they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local >>>body election.
Mostly off topic distraction. However the word undemocratic was used - but >>misdirected. What was undemocratic was the Labour government forcing councils >>to put boards in place that the local electorate were not consulted on - >>"democracy" a great word but way off track.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . . >>>>>. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have >>>>>not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and >>>>>stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long >>>>>. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it
would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would >>>>have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in
Parliament.
un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party
leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and
above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political
experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas
organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus
- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself
courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx
nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at >>>all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the >>>financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that
the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be >>>renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial >>>salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The
Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen
under Trump's USA election.
Where was a local Council "forced", Tony?
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would, >>>that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas
Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal
promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the
coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said
nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they
were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington.
In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a
poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping
they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing
less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior
to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there
has been little opposition to those decisions.
If the local population
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could
expect to be punished at the next election
- but now the government is
demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation -
they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local
body election.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when
they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not
putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . .
. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have
not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and
stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long
. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it
would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would
have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in
Parliament.
un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party
leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and
above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political
experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas
organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus
- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself
courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx
nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe
candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at
all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the
financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not
discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been
arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that
the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert
advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be
renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial
salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The
Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen
under Trump's USA election.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would,
that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by
three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas
Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal
promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the
coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
There is a bit of a fuss now over this:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Now much as I detest NZF personalities, the fact is that they have
convinced party-voters to give them the support needed to get over the
5% threshold in the 2023 election. I don't like that but this is the
way it is.
Looking at the coalition agreement between National and NZF:
https://www.national.org.nz/national_act_and_new_zealand_first_to_deliver_for_all_new_zealanders
(scroll down and download the appropriate pdf).
This is spelt out on page 10: "Restore the right to local referendum
on the establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards, including
requiring a referendum on any wards established without referendum at
the next Local Body elections."
While the Governments actions go further than this (from my reading
the Government intends to require binding referenda on all Maori
wards) this can hardly be a surprise, and such referenda will be part
of the 2025 local body elections so any change will not result in
change until after those elections.
The outcry from this is coming from those that benefited from the
actions of the Labour Government elected in 2020 from the He Puapua
report covertly commissioned by Labour without the knowledge of their >then-coalition partner NZF. Note that He Puapua was leaked after the
2020 election.
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt
totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never
lets a political grudge go:
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/frontier-of-chaos/maori-values#:~:text=concept%20of%20utu.-,Utu,maintained%20social%20bonds%20and%20obligations.
This is Winston's "taua".
Many thanks to Google search results for the 5 minutes it took to turn
this stuff up.
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:59:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>It does get confusing comparing election promises with what they
wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:33:59 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote: >>>>>>
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said >>>>>nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they >>>>>were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington. >>>>>In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a >>>>>poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing
less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior >>>>to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there >>>has been little opposition to those decisions.
There was significant opposition in my local council to their decision
to establish a Maori ward, made worse by Labours decision to scrap >>referendum provisions. The previous Labour Government, in 2021,
amended the Act that allowed 5% or more on a local body electoral roll
to object to changes in Ward representation to remove all provisions
to object.
If the local population
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could >>>expect to be punished at the next election
My District Council serves a population of 200,000. The depth of
talent in available in candidates is limited, so we cannot afford to
dump Councilors on the basis of a single decision. I would expect a >>similar situation applies with many other local bodies.
- but now the government isThere is no compulsion to have referenda - but the right for electors
demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation - >>>they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local >>>body election.
to force a referendum is being restored.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . . >>>>>. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have >>>>>not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and >>>>>stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long >>>>>. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it
would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would >>>>have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in
Parliament.
un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party
leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and
above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political
experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas
organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus
- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself
courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx
nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at >>>all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the >>>financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that
the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be >>>renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial >>>salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The
Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen
under Trump's USA election.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would, >>>that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas
Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal
promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the
coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
Rich you can bleat about the nature of the current government as much
as you have, introducing all manner of off-topic references, but you
simply cannot counter this:
- The Government is made up of 3 parties that the party-voters decided >>should form it. The fact that you don't like any of those parties and
have voice conspiracy theories on some of them is irrelevant and >>irrational.
- National negotiated 2 coalition agreements that specified exactly
what policy directions the Government would take. All 3 parties
agreed to both agreements.
- The re-instatement of provisions for binding referenda on local
body wards was an NZF policy contained in their coalition agreement
with National.
Finally a reference to a bit of historic humour:
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/04/cullen_did_say_it_after_all.html
I don't know how the subject change happened - so now corrected.
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:03:02 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>You lying prick - there is a place reserved for you in hell. Thoroughly deserved in fact.
wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:59:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:It does get confusing comparing election promises with what they
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:33:59 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote: >>>>>>>
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>>>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>>>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said >>>>>>nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>>>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they >>>>>>were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>>>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>>>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington. >>>>>>In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a >>>>>>poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing >>>>>less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior >>>>>to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there >>>>has been little opposition to those decisions.
There was significant opposition in my local council to their decision
to establish a Maori ward, made worse by Labours decision to scrap >>>referendum provisions. The previous Labour Government, in 2021,
amended the Act that allowed 5% or more on a local body electoral roll
to object to changes in Ward representation to remove all provisions
to object.
If the local population
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could >>>>expect to be punished at the next election
My District Council serves a population of 200,000. The depth of
talent in available in candidates is limited, so we cannot afford to
dump Councilors on the basis of a single decision. I would expect a >>>similar situation applies with many other local bodies.
- but now the government isThere is no compulsion to have referenda - but the right for electors
demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>>>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation - >>>>they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local >>>>body election.
to force a referendum is being restored.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>>>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . . >>>>>>. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have >>>>>>not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and >>>>>>stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>>>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long >>>>>>. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it >>>>>would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would >>>>>have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in >>>>>Parliament.
un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party >>>>leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and >>>>above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political
experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas
organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus
- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself >>>>courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx >>>>nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>>>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at >>>>all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>>>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the >>>>financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>>>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>>>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that
the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>>>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be >>>>renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial >>>>salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The >>>>Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen >>>>under Trump's USA election.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would, >>>>that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>>>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas >>>>Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal
promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the >>>>coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
Rich you can bleat about the nature of the current government as much
as you have, introducing all manner of off-topic references, but you >>>simply cannot counter this:
- The Government is made up of 3 parties that the party-voters decided >>>should form it. The fact that you don't like any of those parties and >>>have voice conspiracy theories on some of them is irrelevant and >>>irrational.
- National negotiated 2 coalition agreements that specified exactly
what policy directions the Government would take. All 3 parties
agreed to both agreements.
- The re-instatement of provisions for binding referenda on local
body wards was an NZF policy contained in their coalition agreement
with National.
actually do - it was National that criticised Labour for telling local >councils what to do - nothing to do with wards in council elections
where Labour did not require Maori wards but allowed Councils to make
that decision. Remember local decisions by local people?
Now we have the Coalition (but amusingly National party politicians)
telling Councils what they must do, and recently that is usually
telling the local authority to spend money to avoid central government >meeting costs.
It just emphasises that policies that parties campaigned on did not
necessary make the cut when the coalition formed - the two dominant
parties were clearly NZ First and ACT who led on the big policies, or
as in this case the policies that were attractive to the NZ First
base - racist nutters.
For an unbiased commentary, see: >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/513401/maori-wards-ultimatum-for-councils-as-coalition-government-imposes-referendums
and >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/508400/all-wards-should-be-treated-the-same-says-local-government-new-zealand-president
Finally a reference to a bit of historic humour:
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/04/cullen_did_say_it_after_all.html
I don't know how the subject change happened - so now corrected.
That was Tony, he wanted to be first in a thread . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You do seem confused - this article may help you Tony: https://www.lgnz.co.nz/news/media-releases/complete-overreach-by-govt-on-maori-wards-and-constituencies/
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:03:02 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:You lying prick - there is a place reserved for you in hell. Thoroughly >deserved in fact.
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:59:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:It does get confusing comparing election promises with what they
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:33:59 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote: >>>>>>>>
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never >>>>>>>>>>lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>>>>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>>>>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said >>>>>>>nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>>>>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they >>>>>>>were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>>>>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>>>>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington. >>>>>>>In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a >>>>>>>poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing >>>>>>less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>>>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>>>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>>>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior >>>>>>to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there >>>>>has been little opposition to those decisions.
There was significant opposition in my local council to their decision >>>>to establish a Maori ward, made worse by Labours decision to scrap >>>>referendum provisions. The previous Labour Government, in 2021, >>>>amended the Act that allowed 5% or more on a local body electoral roll >>>>to object to changes in Ward representation to remove all provisions
to object.
If the local population
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could >>>>>expect to be punished at the next election
My District Council serves a population of 200,000. The depth of >>>>talent in available in candidates is limited, so we cannot afford to >>>>dump Councilors on the basis of a single decision. I would expect a >>>>similar situation applies with many other local bodies.
- but now the government isThere is no compulsion to have referenda - but the right for electors >>>>to force a referendum is being restored.
demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>>>>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation - >>>>>they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local >>>>>body election.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and >>>>>un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party >>>>>leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and >>>>>above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political >>>>>experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas >>>>>organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus >>>>>- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself >>>>>courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx >>>>>nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>>>>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at >>>>>all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>>>>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the >>>>>financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>>>>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>>>>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that >>>>>the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>>>>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be >>>>>renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial >>>>>salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The >>>>>Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen >>>>>under Trump's USA election.
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>>>>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . . >>>>>>>. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have >>>>>>>not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and >>>>>>>stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>>>>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long >>>>>>>. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it >>>>>>would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would >>>>>>have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in >>>>>>Parliament.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would, >>>>>that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>>>>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas >>>>>Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal >>>>>promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the >>>>>coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
Rich you can bleat about the nature of the current government as much >>>>as you have, introducing all manner of off-topic references, but you >>>>simply cannot counter this:
- The Government is made up of 3 parties that the party-voters decided >>>>should form it. The fact that you don't like any of those parties and >>>>have voice conspiracy theories on some of them is irrelevant and >>>>irrational.
- National negotiated 2 coalition agreements that specified exactly >>>>what policy directions the Government would take. All 3 parties
agreed to both agreements.
- The re-instatement of provisions for binding referenda on local
body wards was an NZF policy contained in their coalition agreement >>>>with National.
actually do - it was National that criticised Labour for telling local >>councils what to do - nothing to do with wards in council elections
where Labour did not require Maori wards but allowed Councils to make
that decision. Remember local decisions by local people?
Now we have the Coalition (but amusingly National party politicians) >>telling Councils what they must do, and recently that is usually
telling the local authority to spend money to avoid central government >>meeting costs.
It just emphasises that policies that parties campaigned on did not >>necessary make the cut when the coalition formed - the two dominant
parties were clearly NZ First and ACT who led on the big policies, or
as in this case the policies that were attractive to the NZ First
base - racist nutters.
For an unbiased commentary, see: >>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/513401/maori-wards-ultimatum-for-councils-as-coalition-government-imposes-referendums
and >>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/508400/all-wards-should-be-treated-the-same-says-local-government-new-zealand-president
Finally a reference to a bit of historic humour:
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/04/cullen_did_say_it_after_all.html
I don't know how the subject change happened - so now corrected.
That was Tony, he wanted to be first in a thread . . .
For an unbiased commentary, see: >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/513401/maori-wards-ultimatum-for-councils-as-coalition-government-imposes-referendums
and >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/508400/all-wards-should-be-treated-the-same-says-local-government-new-zealand-president
On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 06:12:01 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou should stop reading garbage like that and learn some manners. You are a sarcastic fool.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You do seem confused - this article may help you Tony: >https://www.lgnz.co.nz/news/media-releases/complete-overreach-by-govt-on-maori-wards-and-constituencies/
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:03:02 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:You lying prick - there is a place reserved for you in hell. Thoroughly >>deserved in fact.
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:59:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:It does get confusing comparing election promises with what they
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:33:59 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote: >>>>>>>>>
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never
lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring >>>>>>>>>>the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>>>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that >>>>>>>>>>should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>>>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>>>>>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>>>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>>>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>>>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>>>>>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said >>>>>>>>nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>>>>>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>>>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they >>>>>>>>were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>>>>>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>>>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>>>>>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington. >>>>>>>>In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>>>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a >>>>>>>>poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>>>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing >>>>>>>less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>>>>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>>>>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>>>>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior >>>>>>>to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there >>>>>>has been little opposition to those decisions.
There was significant opposition in my local council to their decision >>>>>to establish a Maori ward, made worse by Labours decision to scrap >>>>>referendum provisions. The previous Labour Government, in 2021, >>>>>amended the Act that allowed 5% or more on a local body electoral roll >>>>>to object to changes in Ward representation to remove all provisions >>>>>to object.
If the local population
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could >>>>>>expect to be punished at the next election
My District Council serves a population of 200,000. The depth of >>>>>talent in available in candidates is limited, so we cannot afford to >>>>>dump Councilors on the basis of a single decision. I would expect a >>>>>similar situation applies with many other local bodies.
- but now the government isThere is no compulsion to have referenda - but the right for electors >>>>>to force a referendum is being restored.
demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>>>>>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation - >>>>>>they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local >>>>>>body election.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and >>>>>>un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party >>>>>>leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and >>>>>>above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political >>>>>>experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas >>>>>>organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus >>>>>>- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself >>>>>>courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx >>>>>>nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>>>>>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at >>>>>>all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>>>>>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the >>>>>>financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>>>>>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>>>>>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that >>>>>>the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>>>>>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be >>>>>>renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial >>>>>>salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The >>>>>>Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen >>>>>>under Trump's USA election.
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>>>>>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>>>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>>>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . . >>>>>>>>. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have >>>>>>>>not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and >>>>>>>>stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>>>>>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long >>>>>>>>. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>>>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>>>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>>>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>>>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it >>>>>>>would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would >>>>>>>have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in >>>>>>>Parliament.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would, >>>>>>that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>>>>>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas >>>>>>Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal >>>>>>promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the >>>>>>coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
Rich you can bleat about the nature of the current government as much >>>>>as you have, introducing all manner of off-topic references, but you >>>>>simply cannot counter this:
- The Government is made up of 3 parties that the party-voters decided >>>>>should form it. The fact that you don't like any of those parties and >>>>>have voice conspiracy theories on some of them is irrelevant and >>>>>irrational.
- National negotiated 2 coalition agreements that specified exactly >>>>>what policy directions the Government would take. All 3 parties >>>>>agreed to both agreements.
- The re-instatement of provisions for binding referenda on local >>>>>body wards was an NZF policy contained in their coalition agreement >>>>>with National.
actually do - it was National that criticised Labour for telling local >>>councils what to do - nothing to do with wards in council elections
where Labour did not require Maori wards but allowed Councils to make >>>that decision. Remember local decisions by local people?
Now we have the Coalition (but amusingly National party politicians) >>>telling Councils what they must do, and recently that is usually
telling the local authority to spend money to avoid central government >>>meeting costs.
It just emphasises that policies that parties campaigned on did not >>>necessary make the cut when the coalition formed - the two dominant >>>parties were clearly NZ First and ACT who led on the big policies, or
as in this case the policies that were attractive to the NZ First
base - racist nutters.
For an unbiased commentary, see: >>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/513401/maori-wards-ultimatum-for-councils-as-coalition-government-imposes-referendums
and >>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/508400/all-wards-should-be-treated-the-same-says-local-government-new-zealand-president
Finally a reference to a bit of historic humour:
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/04/cullen_did_say_it_after_all.html
I don't know how the subject change happened - so now corrected.
That was Tony, he wanted to be first in a thread . . .
On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 18:45:06 -0000 (UTC), TonyNothing to admit. Your posts in this thread are absolute bullshit, you have provided hardly a word that is not a lie - driven by your blind obedience to a failed (never has been successful) political belief system. And augmented by your serious personal character shortcomings. Are you driven by hubris, illness or greed? Nothing else is possible.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Why do you call that article garbage - it is a well-reasoned
On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 06:12:01 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou should stop reading garbage like that and learn some manners. You are a >>sarcastic fool.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You do seem confused - this article may help you Tony: >>>https://www.lgnz.co.nz/news/media-releases/complete-overreach-by-govt-on-maori-wards-and-constituencies/
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:03:02 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:You lying prick - there is a place reserved for you in hell. Thoroughly >>>>deserved in fact.
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:59:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:It does get confusing comparing election promises with what they >>>>>actually do - it was National that criticised Labour for telling local >>>>>councils what to do - nothing to do with wards in council elections >>>>>where Labour did not require Maori wards but allowed Councils to make >>>>>that decision. Remember local decisions by local people?
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:33:59 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt
totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston >>>>>>>>>>>>>never
lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is >>>>>>>>>>>>restoring
the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>>>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>>>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>>>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>>>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>>>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>>>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>>>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we
do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one >>>>>>>>>>>>that
should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>>>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic
process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying
before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>>>>>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>>>>>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>>>>>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix
their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said >>>>>>>>>>nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading
and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>>>>>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they >>>>>>>>>>were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities
they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>>>>>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge
and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington.
In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>>>>>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a >>>>>>>>>>poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>>>>>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing >>>>>>>>>less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>>>>>>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>>>>>>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>>>>>>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior >>>>>>>>>to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there >>>>>>>>has been little opposition to those decisions.
There was significant opposition in my local council to their decision >>>>>>>to establish a Maori ward, made worse by Labours decision to scrap >>>>>>>referendum provisions. The previous Labour Government, in 2021, >>>>>>>amended the Act that allowed 5% or more on a local body electoral roll >>>>>>>to object to changes in Ward representation to remove all provisions >>>>>>>to object.
If the local population
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could >>>>>>>>expect to be punished at the next election
My District Council serves a population of 200,000. The depth of >>>>>>>talent in available in candidates is limited, so we cannot afford to >>>>>>>dump Councilors on the basis of a single decision. I would expect a >>>>>>>similar situation applies with many other local bodies.
- but now the government isThere is no compulsion to have referenda - but the right for electors >>>>>>>to force a referendum is being restored.
demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>>>>>>>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation - >>>>>>>>they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local >>>>>>>>body election.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and >>>>>>>>un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party >>>>>>>>leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and >>>>>>>>above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political >>>>>>>>experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas >>>>>>>>organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus >>>>>>>>- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself >>>>>>>>courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx >>>>>>>>nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>>>>>>>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at >>>>>>>>all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>>>>>>>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the >>>>>>>>financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>>>>>>>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>>>>>>>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that >>>>>>>>the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>>>>>>>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be >>>>>>>>renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial >>>>>>>>salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The >>>>>>>>Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen >>>>>>>>under Trump's USA election.
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the
government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>>>>>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>>>>>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . . >>>>>>>>>>. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have >>>>>>>>>>not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and >>>>>>>>>>stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to
let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long
. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>>>>>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>>>>>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/ >>>>>>>>>> - but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>>>>>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>>>>>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it >>>>>>>>>would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would >>>>>>>>>have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in >>>>>>>>>Parliament.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would, >>>>>>>>that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>>>>>>>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas >>>>>>>>Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal >>>>>>>>promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the >>>>>>>>coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
Rich you can bleat about the nature of the current government as much >>>>>>>as you have, introducing all manner of off-topic references, but you >>>>>>>simply cannot counter this:
- The Government is made up of 3 parties that the party-voters decided >>>>>>>should form it. The fact that you don't like any of those parties and >>>>>>>have voice conspiracy theories on some of them is irrelevant and >>>>>>>irrational.
- National negotiated 2 coalition agreements that specified exactly >>>>>>>what policy directions the Government would take. All 3 parties >>>>>>>agreed to both agreements.
- The re-instatement of provisions for binding referenda on local >>>>>>>body wards was an NZF policy contained in their coalition agreement >>>>>>>with National.
Now we have the Coalition (but amusingly National party politicians) >>>>>telling Councils what they must do, and recently that is usually >>>>>telling the local authority to spend money to avoid central government >>>>>meeting costs.
It just emphasises that policies that parties campaigned on did not >>>>>necessary make the cut when the coalition formed - the two dominant >>>>>parties were clearly NZ First and ACT who led on the big policies, or >>>>>as in this case the policies that were attractive to the NZ First >>>>>base - racist nutters.
For an unbiased commentary, see: >>>>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/513401/maori-wards-ultimatum-for-councils-as-coalition-government-imposes-referendums
and >>>>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/508400/all-wards-should-be-treated-the-same-says-local-government-new-zealand-president
I don't know how the subject change happened - so now corrected.
Finally a reference to a bit of historic humour:
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/04/cullen_did_say_it_after_all.html >>>>>>
That was Tony, he wanted to be first in a thread . . .
commentary by an organisation that represents local government
organisations, whatever the politics of their Councilors - they are
naturally concerned that a government that said they wanted to leave
local decisions to local organisations are now pushing the whole cost
of meeting water standards onto each local area, avoiding the issue of
small councils with large costs that nearby Council may not wish to
share costs with; that is making it clear that there will be little
financial assistance from central government except where the
government decides, and any such money will have to be spent where
central government dictates, not where locals may want it spent - and
now requiring local councils that made legitimate decisions about
local Wards to pay for a referendum to second guess a council decision
- rather than leaving that to local voters making decisions about
whose views they trust enough to elect them.
For sure they will no longer trust the slogans ' keeping your rates
low" again - they now know that this has been a political ploy that a
right wing government is taking from them - they want rates to be a
bigger source of community funding than income tax - which they want
to make flatter by lowering the top tax rates . . .
That is the real problem, Tony, but you will not admit it.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Why do you call that article garbage - it is a well-reasoned
On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 06:12:01 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou should stop reading garbage like that and learn some manners. You are a >sarcastic fool.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You do seem confused - this article may help you Tony: >>https://www.lgnz.co.nz/news/media-releases/complete-overreach-by-govt-on-maori-wards-and-constituencies/
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:03:02 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:You lying prick - there is a place reserved for you in hell. Thoroughly >>>deserved in fact.
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:59:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:It does get confusing comparing election promises with what they >>>>actually do - it was National that criticised Labour for telling local >>>>councils what to do - nothing to do with wards in council elections >>>>where Labour did not require Maori wards but allowed Councils to make >>>>that decision. Remember local decisions by local people?
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:33:59 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:47:51 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:39:11 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:Sorry about that - wrote it in a hurry.
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:43:44 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:47:34 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>
On Thu, 04 Apr 2024, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350234794/maori-ward-referendum-u-turn-kick-guts-our-people
Much as I detest Winston Peters he is predictable: he rightly felt >>>>>>>>>>>>totally deceived by the 2017-2020 Labour Government and Winston never
lets a political grudge go:
Winston's statement on this:
"New Zealand First, as part of the coalition government, is restoring
the rights of communities to determine whether to introduce Maori >>>>>>>>>>>wards - fulfilling a commitment made in the New Zealand First >>>>>>>>>>>coalition agreement.
We promised to restore the right to local referenda on the >>>>>>>>>>>establishment or ongoing use of Maori wards at the next Local Body >>>>>>>>>>>elections - including requiring referenda on any wards previously >>>>>>>>>>>established without referenda.
We will reverse Labour’s undemocratic changes that denied local >>>>>>>>>>>communities a say in the change that led to Maori wards, without >>>>>>>>>>>referenda, unmandated, unheralded, and not part of any Labour >>>>>>>>>>>manifesto commitment in 2020.
In short, what they did was without public consultation, and what we >>>>>>>>>>>do is with public consultation.
New Zealand First believes any decision about Maori wards is one that
should remain with communities.
The legislation that will be brought in by the coalition government >>>>>>>>>>>will ensure that local voices are heard and that the true democratic >>>>>>>>>>>process is restored."
Correct. So why so much angst about this being done?
I suspect it is the conflict inherent in the government parties saying >>>>>>>>>before they were elected that saying that local authorities should be >>>>>>>>>able to make decisions in their local areas for themselves without >>>>>>>>>interference from central government, but now the government has been >>>>>>>>>formed they have stopped using government funds for local areas to fix >>>>>>>>>their water problems without huge increases in rates; they said >>>>>>>>>nothing about the previous government funding a huge amount of roading >>>>>>>>>and housing and emergency funding to help restore the Hawkes Bay / >>>>>>>>>Gisborne areas that were badly affected by storms - but after they >>>>>>>>>were elected they have stopped most funding, telling local authorities >>>>>>>>>they need to increase rates, and where they are still funding some >>>>>>>>>roading projects, they are telling the locals that Simeon is in charge >>>>>>>>>and all decisions on the use of that money will be made in Wellington. >>>>>>>>>In the issue you raise above they are saying that local Councils that >>>>>>>>>made some decisions previously now have to make them again using a >>>>>>>>>poll of voters a their cost - presumably because National is hoping >>>>>>>>>they will change their mind.
Cripes Rich - that sentence needs a lot of unpacking.
The subject is
specifically Maori Wards for Local Bodies. Nothing more, nothing >>>>>>>>less. The Government has simply reversed a law change (and therefore >>>>>>>>restoring the status quo) on binding referenda when establishing Maori >>>>>>>>Wards. Fairly simple and as originally cite agreed to in a National's >>>>>>>>coalition agreement with NZF, based on NZF policy published just prior >>>>>>>>to the election.
Local bodies made decisions that they were entitled to make, and there >>>>>>>has been little opposition to those decisions.
There was significant opposition in my local council to their decision >>>>>>to establish a Maori ward, made worse by Labours decision to scrap >>>>>>referendum provisions. The previous Labour Government, in 2021, >>>>>>amended the Act that allowed 5% or more on a local body electoral roll >>>>>>to object to changes in Ward representation to remove all provisions >>>>>>to object.
If the local population
did not like the decisions, then the Councilors who made them could >>>>>>>expect to be punished at the next election
My District Council serves a population of 200,000. The depth of >>>>>>talent in available in candidates is limited, so we cannot afford to >>>>>>dump Councilors on the basis of a single decision. I would expect a >>>>>>similar situation applies with many other local bodies.
- but now the government isThere is no compulsion to have referenda - but the right for electors >>>>>>to force a referendum is being restored.
demanding that they revisit past decisions legitimately made and spend >>>>>>>further money having a referendum. This is retrospective legislation - >>>>>>>they are not prepared to wait voters to react to this issue at a local >>>>>>>body election.
And there you identify a key problem behind this rash and >>>>>>>un-democratic move. To get a coalition together, the three party >>>>>>>leaders got together and put themselves above their own parties and >>>>>>>above parliament. Seymour has had quite a bit more political >>>>>>>experience than Luxon, and was well prepared by the Atlas >>>>>>>organisations and came with a list of demands with a consistent focus >>>>>>>- smaller government, flattening taxes. Peters had found himself >>>>>>>courting a lot of fringe nutters to get his vote up - anti-vaxx >>>>>>>nutters, racists, the fringe gun lobby, and some far right fringe >>>>>>>candidates sponsored by Atlas as well. Poor Luxon was not prepared at >>>>>>>all, and relied on Willis who was equally ill-equipped at political >>>>>>>negotiations, but who was equally incapable of understanding the >>>>>>>financial impact of the issues that were being agreed. They did not >>>>>>>discuss proposals with their new caucuses as a leak would have been >>>>>>>arranged to embarrass them, so all three "Leaders" then agreed that >>>>>>>the coalition document was more important than parliament, or expert >>>>>>>advice, or public opinion, and that issues agreed could not be >>>>>>>renegotiated our they may lose their appointments and Ministerial >>>>>>>salaries. And so we now see the real winners of the election - The >>>>>>>Atlas Network, who captured the "Right" to an extent not even seen >>>>>>>under Trump's USA election.
If the voters had not liked the decisions
they could have voted out Councilors who made those decisions, but the >>>>>>>>>government is punishing them for something that was not illegal when >>>>>>>>>they made those decisions - because they can! - but they are not >>>>>>>>>putting controversial decisions they are making to a referendum . . . >>>>>>>>>. ever heard to do as I say, not what I do? Luxon and Seymour have >>>>>>>>>not had power before, and by God they are going to use it! - and >>>>>>>>>stuff what you think Crash. With all those new Ministers, they have to >>>>>>>>>let them make decisions, don't they - and consultations takes too long >>>>>>>>>. . . especially when you have internal bloat to push a lot of new >>>>>>>>>politicians up . . . - see:. >>>>>>>>>https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/04/too-complex/
- but you will probably see that as a typical lefty attack on a >>>>>>>>>government that was elected to have power - don't get upset if they >>>>>>>>>insist on using it!
Then that was all part of the pre-election debate.
The fact is that the Government is doing exactly what it said it >>>>>>>>would. If the NZF party voters were just 30,000 less then we would >>>>>>>>have no National coalition agreement with NZF and no NZF in >>>>>>>>Parliament.
So when you say the Government is doing exactly what it said it would, >>>>>>>that is what an agreement made under pressure without expert advice by >>>>>>>three people, two of whom were influenced/dominated by the Atlas >>>>>>>Network, made before Parliament was even called.
So even Cabinet's hands are tied - a group bloated by internal >>>>>>>promises to a group that will not vote against anything in the >>>>>>>coalition agreement - that may threaten their entitlements!
Rich you can bleat about the nature of the current government as much >>>>>>as you have, introducing all manner of off-topic references, but you >>>>>>simply cannot counter this:
- The Government is made up of 3 parties that the party-voters decided >>>>>>should form it. The fact that you don't like any of those parties and >>>>>>have voice conspiracy theories on some of them is irrelevant and >>>>>>irrational.
- National negotiated 2 coalition agreements that specified exactly >>>>>>what policy directions the Government would take. All 3 parties >>>>>>agreed to both agreements.
- The re-instatement of provisions for binding referenda on local >>>>>>body wards was an NZF policy contained in their coalition agreement >>>>>>with National.
Now we have the Coalition (but amusingly National party politicians) >>>>telling Councils what they must do, and recently that is usually >>>>telling the local authority to spend money to avoid central government >>>>meeting costs.
It just emphasises that policies that parties campaigned on did not >>>>necessary make the cut when the coalition formed - the two dominant >>>>parties were clearly NZ First and ACT who led on the big policies, or >>>>as in this case the policies that were attractive to the NZ First
base - racist nutters.
For an unbiased commentary, see: >>>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/513401/maori-wards-ultimatum-for-councils-as-coalition-government-imposes-referendums
and >>>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/508400/all-wards-should-be-treated-the-same-says-local-government-new-zealand-president
Finally a reference to a bit of historic humour:
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/04/cullen_did_say_it_after_all.html
I don't know how the subject change happened - so now corrected.
That was Tony, he wanted to be first in a thread . . .
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