With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that
will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in
large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of
political attention for a time.
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>There is no similarity to the USA political environment, none of our parties are as right wing as the Democrats let alone the Republicans. So any attempt at comparison is either futile or political mischief.
wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that
will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in
large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of
political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem
then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality
and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend
to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar
saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that
will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in
large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of
political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem
then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality
and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend
to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar
saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem
then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality
and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend
to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar
saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ >for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population >voices heard.
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem
then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality
and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend
to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar
saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ >>for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population >>voices heard.
With support from others as well: >https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have
read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill
it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong
with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and
the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear,
especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing.
They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles"
three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty
this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel
Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori
of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political
authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga)
provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of
Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by
recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty
settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts,
which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not
recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to
be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and
customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in
a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past
Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities.
There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine
and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the
Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a
polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers
) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right
to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a
disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with
Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold
Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation
for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,”
said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need
for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi?
Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all
over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss?
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of
"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing
ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with
the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations
and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert
the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down
on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited
pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school
principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an
"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and
I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls"
surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as
I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi
signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry
and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this
country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home
the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific
Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my
Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about
The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged
about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant
child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is
that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does
not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but
those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an
apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society
as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say -
it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women.
This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people,
rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the
disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the
vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for
250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private
detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and
protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst
us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not
one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more
injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the
Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't
know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship
with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility
but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work
and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi
was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and
kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out
onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and
everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets
on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first
reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill,
for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select
committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First
Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance
by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why?
What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are
pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and
racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets
freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your
Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1
states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values
and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all
others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us
all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >enshrined in multiple Laws.
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem
then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality
and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend
to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar
saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ >>for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population >>voices heard.
With support from others as well: >https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have
read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill
it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong
with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and
the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear,
especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing.
They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles"
three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty
this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel
Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori
of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political
authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga)
provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of
Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by
recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty
settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts,
which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not
recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to
be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and
customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in
a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past
Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities.
There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine
and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the
Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a
polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers
) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right
to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a
disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with
Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold
Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation
for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,”
said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need
for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi?
Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all
over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss?
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of
"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing
ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with
the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations
and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert
the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down
on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited
pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school
principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an
"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and
I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls"
surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as
I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi
signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry
and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this
country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home
the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific
Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my
Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about
The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged
about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant
child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is
that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does
not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but
those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an
apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society
as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say -
it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women.
This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people,
rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the
disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the
vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for
250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private
detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and
protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst
us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not
one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more
injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the
Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't
know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship
with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility
but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work
and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi
was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and
kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out
onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and
everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets
on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first
reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill,
for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select
committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First
Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance
by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why?
What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are
pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and
racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets
freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your
Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1
states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values
and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all
others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us
all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >enshrined in multiple Laws.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no >>>>>chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to >>>>>submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is >>>>>pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem >>>> then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality
and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend
to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar
saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ >>>for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population >>>voices heard.
With support from others as well: >>https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have
read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill
it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong
with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and
the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear,
especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing.
They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles"
three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty
this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >>articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel
Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >>Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori
of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political >>authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga) >>provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of
Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by >>recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty
settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts,
which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >>indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not >>recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to
be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and
customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in
a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past >>Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities.
There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine
and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the
Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a
polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers
) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right
to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a
disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with >>Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold
Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation
for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,”
said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need
for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi?
Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all
over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss?
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of >>"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing
ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with
the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations
and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert
the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down
on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited
pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school
principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an
"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and
I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls"
surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as
I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi
signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry
and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this >>country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home
the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific >>Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my
Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about
The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged
about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >>surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant
child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is
that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does
not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but
those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an
apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society
as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say -
it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women.
This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people,
rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the
disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the
vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for
250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private >>detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and >>protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst
us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not
one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >>indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more
injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >>together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the >>Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't
know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship
with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility
but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work
and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi
was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and
kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out
onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and
everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets
on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first >>reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill,
for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select >>committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First
Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance
by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why? >>What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are
pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and
racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets >>freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your
Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1
states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values
and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all
others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us
all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >>enshrined in multiple Laws.
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 01:35:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony"Of course" it is not in the least racist and you have provided no evidence that it is.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no >>>>>>chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to >>>>>>submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is >>>>>>pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem >>>>> then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality >>>>> and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend >>>>> to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar >>>>> saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ
for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population
voices heard.
With support from others as well: >>>https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have >>>read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill
it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong
with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and
the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear,
especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing.
They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles"
three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty
this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >>>articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel
Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >>>Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori
of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political >>>authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga) >>>provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of
Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by >>>recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty
settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts, >>>which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >>>indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not >>>recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to
be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and
customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in
a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past >>>Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities. >>>There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine
and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the
Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a >>>polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers
) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right
to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a
disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with >>>Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold
Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation
for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,”
said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need >>>for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi? >>>Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all >>>over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss?
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of >>>"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing
ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with
the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations
and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert
the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down
on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited
pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school
principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an >>>"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and
I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls"
surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as
I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi
signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry
and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this >>>country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home >>>the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific >>>Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my
Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about
The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged
about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >>>surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant >>>child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is >>>that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does
not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but
those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an >>>apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society
as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say -
it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women. >>>This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people,
rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the
disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the
vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for >>>250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private >>>detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and >>>protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst
us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not
one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >>>indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more >>>injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >>>together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the >>>Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't
know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship
with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility
but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work
and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi
was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and >>>kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out
onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and >>>everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets
on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first >>>reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill,
for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select >>>committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First >>>Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance
by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why? >>>What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are
pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and
racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets >>>freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your
Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1
states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values >>>and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all >>>others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us
all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >>>enshrined in multiple Laws.
Of course it is racist - Seymour wants a smaller state, dominated by
large Corporates - so he wants government to abandon Maori - and
National are sympathetic - they are stopping some reporting on those
needing assistance as the increases are embarrassing. His aim is not
to get it through parliament, but to get the racists in our country to
see reneging on the Treaty as a pathway to greater wealth for
themselves - and get enough support to get it put to a referendum.
Would you trust a government that seeks to renege on a contracts madeThere is no such intention, you are lying.
by a previous government - in this case at the start of our Nation?
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 01:35:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no >>>>>>chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to >>>>>>submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is >>>>>>pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem >>>>> then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find
something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is
some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality >>>>> and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and
then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum
where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend >>>>> to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like
90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar >>>>> saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ
for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population
voices heard.
With support from others as well: >>>https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have >>>read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill
it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong
with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and
the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear,
especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing.
They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles"
three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty
this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >>>articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel
Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >>>Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori
of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political >>>authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga) >>>provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of
Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by >>>recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty
settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts, >>>which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >>>indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not >>>recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to
be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and
customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in
a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past >>>Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities. >>>There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine
and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the
Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a >>>polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers
) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right
to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a
disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with >>>Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold
Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation
for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,”
said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need >>>for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi? >>>Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all >>>over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss?
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of >>>"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing
ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with
the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations
and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert
the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down
on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited
pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school
principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an >>>"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and
I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls"
surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as
I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi
signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry
and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this >>>country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home >>>the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific >>>Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my
Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about
The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged
about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >>>surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant >>>child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is >>>that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does
not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but
those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an >>>apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society
as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say -
it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women. >>>This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people,
rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the
disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the
vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for >>>250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private >>>detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and >>>protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst
us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not
one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >>>indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more >>>injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >>>together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the >>>Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't
know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship
with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility
but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work
and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi
was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and >>>kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out
onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and >>>everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets
on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first >>>reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill,
for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select >>>committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First >>>Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance
by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why? >>>What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are
pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and
racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets >>>freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your
Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1
states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values >>>and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all >>>others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us
all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >>>enshrined in multiple Laws.
Of course it is racist - Seymour wants a smaller state, dominated by
large Corporates - so he wants government to abandon Maori
and
National are sympathetic - they are stopping some reporting on those
needing assistance as the increases are embarrassing. His aim is not
to get it through parliament, but to get the racists in our country to
see reneging on the Treaty as a pathway to greater wealth for
themselves - and get enough support to get it put to a referendum.
Would you trust a government that seeks to renege on a contracts made
by a previous government - in this case at the start of our Nation?
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that
will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in
large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of
political attention for a time.
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that
will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in
large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of
political attention for a time.
After the antics of the Maori Party in parliament the other day this
needs to go all the way to a vote. These TPM clowns need to be
kicked out of parliament. NZ made the laughing stock of the world.
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 22:16:31 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 01:35:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no >>>>>>>chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to >>>>>>>submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is >>>>>>>pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not
immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem >>>>>> then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find >>>>>> something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is >>>>>> some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality >>>>>> and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and >>>>>> then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum >>>>>> where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend >>>>>> to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like >>>>>> 90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar >>>>>> saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to
Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ
for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population
voices heard.
With support from others as well: >>>>https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have >>>>read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill >>>>it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong >>>>with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and
the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear, >>>>especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing.
They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles" >>>>three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty >>>>this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >>>>articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel
Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >>>>Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori >>>>of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political >>>>authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga) >>>>provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of >>>>Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by >>>>recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty
settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts, >>>>which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >>>>indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not >>>>recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to >>>>be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and
customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in
a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past >>>>Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities. >>>>There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine >>>>and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the >>>>Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a >>>>polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers
) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right
to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a >>>>disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with >>>>Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold
Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation >>>>for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,”
said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need >>>>for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi? >>>>Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all >>>>over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss?
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of >>>>"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing
ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with >>>>the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations >>>>and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert
the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down
on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited
pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school
principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an >>>>"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and
I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls" >>>>surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as
I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi >>>>signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry
and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this >>>>country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home >>>>the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific >>>>Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my >>>>Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about >>>>The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged >>>>about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >>>>surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant >>>>child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is >>>>that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does >>>>not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but >>>>those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an >>>>apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society
as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say -
it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women. >>>>This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people,
rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the >>>>disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the >>>>vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for >>>>250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private >>>>detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and >>>>protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst
us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not >>>>one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >>>>indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more >>>>injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >>>>together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the >>>>Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't >>>>know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship >>>>with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility >>>>but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work >>>>and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi
was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and >>>>kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out >>>>onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and >>>>everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets
on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first >>>>reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill, >>>>for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select >>>>committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First >>>>Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance >>>>by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why? >>>>What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are
pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and >>>>racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets >>>>freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your
Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1 >>>>states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values >>>>and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all >>>>others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us >>>>all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >>>>enshrined in multiple Laws.
Of course it is racist - Seymour wants a smaller state, dominated by
large Corporates - so he wants government to abandon Maori
So what part of the Bill does this? Is the opposition to the Bill
based solely on opposition to ACT?
andThat is an outright lie. National will not support this Bill any
National are sympathetic - they are stopping some reporting on those >>needing assistance as the increases are embarrassing. His aim is not
to get it through parliament, but to get the racists in our country to
see reneging on the Treaty as a pathway to greater wealth for
themselves - and get enough support to get it put to a referendum.
further and the rest of what you have said above is simply irrelevant
(to the Bill) rhetoric.
Would you trust a government that seeks to renege on a contracts made
by a previous government - in this case at the start of our Nation?
Not at all. We have no such government.
On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 09:26:22 +1300, Mutley <mutley2000@hotmail.com>Yes
wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>political attention for a time.
After the antics of the Maori Party in parliament the other day this
needs to go all the way to a vote. These TPM clowns need to be
kicked out of parliament. NZ made the laughing stock of the world.
Did it get reported overseas?
Did anyone laugh?They clearly think we have an out of control minority party in parliament. Disrespectful, entirely without value and attempting to subvert our democracy. That is TPM. A perfect party for you to support. They will fail.
On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 10:42:20 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 13:32:24 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 22:16:31 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 01:35:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>>>>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>>>>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>>>>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no >>>>>>>>>chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>>>>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to >>>>>>>>>submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is >>>>>>>>>pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>>>>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>>>>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>>>>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>>>>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not >>>>>>>> immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem >>>>>>>> then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find >>>>>>>> something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is >>>>>>>> some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality >>>>>>>> and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and >>>>>>>> then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum >>>>>>>> where reason and rational argument are far less important than >>>>>>>> targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend >>>>>>>> to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like >>>>>>>> 90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar >>>>>>>> saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to >>>>>>>> Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ
for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population
voices heard.
With support from others as well: >>>>>>https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill. >>>>>>
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have >>>>>>read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill >>>>>>it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong >>>>>>with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and >>>>>>the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear, >>>>>>especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing. >>>>>>They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles" >>>>>>three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty >>>>>>this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >>>>>>articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel >>>>>>Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >>>>>>Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori >>>>>>of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political >>>>>>authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga) >>>>>>provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of >>>>>>Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by >>>>>>recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty >>>>>>settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts, >>>>>>which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >>>>>>indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not >>>>>>recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to >>>>>>be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and >>>>>>customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in >>>>>>a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past >>>>>>Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities. >>>>>>There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine >>>>>>and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the >>>>>>Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a >>>>>>polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers >>>>>>) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right >>>>>>to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a >>>>>>disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with >>>>>>Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold >>>>>>Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation >>>>>>for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,” >>>>>>said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need >>>>>>for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi? >>>>>>Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all >>>>>>over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss? >>>>>>
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of >>>>>>"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing >>>>>>ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with >>>>>>the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations >>>>>>and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert >>>>>>the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down >>>>>>on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited >>>>>>pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school >>>>>>principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an >>>>>>"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and >>>>>>I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls" >>>>>>surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as >>>>>>I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi >>>>>>signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry >>>>>>and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this >>>>>>country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home >>>>>>the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific >>>>>>Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my >>>>>>Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about >>>>>>The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged >>>>>>about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >>>>>>surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant >>>>>>child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is >>>>>>that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does >>>>>>not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but >>>>>>those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an >>>>>>apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society >>>>>>as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say - >>>>>>it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women. >>>>>>This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people, >>>>>>rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the >>>>>>disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the >>>>>>vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for >>>>>>250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private >>>>>>detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and >>>>>>protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst >>>>>>us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not >>>>>>one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >>>>>>indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more >>>>>>injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >>>>>>together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the >>>>>>Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't >>>>>>know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship >>>>>>with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility >>>>>>but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work >>>>>>and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi >>>>>>was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and >>>>>>kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out >>>>>>onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and >>>>>>everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets >>>>>>on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first >>>>>>reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill, >>>>>>for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select >>>>>>committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First >>>>>>Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance >>>>>>by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why? >>>>>>What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are >>>>>>pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and >>>>>>racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets >>>>>>freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your >>>>>>Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1 >>>>>>states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values >>>>>>and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all >>>>>>others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us >>>>>>all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >>>>>>enshrined in multiple Laws.
Of course it is racist - Seymour wants a smaller state, dominated by >>>>large Corporates - so he wants government to abandon Maori
So what part of the Bill does this? Is the opposition to the Bill
based solely on opposition to ACT?
andThat is an outright lie. National will not support this Bill any
National are sympathetic - they are stopping some reporting on those >>>>needing assistance as the increases are embarrassing. His aim is not
to get it through parliament, but to get the racists in our country to >>>>see reneging on the Treaty as a pathway to greater wealth for >>>>themselves - and get enough support to get it put to a referendum.
further and the rest of what you have said above is simply irrelevant
(to the Bill) rhetoric.
Of course National is supporting the Bill - as plenty of people have >>pointed out, it is in the coalition agreement!
That is not correct. National have agreed to the bill being given a
first reading and then referred to a Select Committee. That is where
it is now and that is where it will stay. If National actually
supported the bill they would not vote against it at a second reading
(if it ever gets that far).
Simple really - except for the likes of you who don't seem to
understand the difference between 'agree' and ';support'.
So it is worth lookingAs usual you have wandered way off-topic with political rhetoric.
at just what that agreement said.
A quick search took me to: >>https://www.national.org.nz/press/national-act-and-new-zealand-first-to-deliver-for-all-new-zealanders
and there are link at the bottom of the page. Click on the agreement
with ACT, and - what a surprise - the link appears to be (temporarily
I am sure!) currently inactive.
Never fear; there is another link: >>https://www.act.org.nz/coalition_agreement_means_lower_cost_of_life_safer_streets_stronger_democracy
and from that link, only the fifth bullet point down, we see:
"Introduce a Treaty Principles Bill based on ACT’s policy and support
it to a select committee."
Now we know that when National wanted one bill to go through quickly
and without a lot of publicity, they imposed a 5 day deadline on >>submissions to a Select Committee, and legislation was rushed through
very quickly after that. We also know that Seymour has abhorred waste,
and that he has insisted that some issues be given a rigorous
cost/benefit analysis before being allowed to proceed. Presumably that
has been done, since a decision has been announced that the select >>Committee will meet for six months!
So it is quite reasonable to ask just what those "benefits" are . . .
.
And no I am not able to give an answer to that question - just as it
seems David Seymour and Chris Luxon are not able to.
So we saw the legislation introduced, conveniently moved forward to a
day when Christopher Luxon was out of the country, and some other
National Ministers also found themselves busy with other commitments.
So yes, clearly National are supporting the Bill being open for
discussion for a very extended period - that is taking the public
discourse further, purportedly to allow Seymour to convince the
public, and even possibly the National Party, to support the bill
further.
You could well ask, just who is in charge, and what does Seymour hope
to achieve? Or of more interest, what does Luxon and the National
caucus hope to achieve? Who is really leading this Government?
Would you trust a government that seeks to renege on a contracts made >>>>by a previous government - in this case at the start of our Nation?
Not at all. We have no such government.
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 13:32:24 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 22:16:31 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 01:35:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to >>>>>>>>me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>>>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>>>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no >>>>>>>>chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>>>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to >>>>>>>>submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is >>>>>>>>pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>>>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>>>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>>>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>>>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not >>>>>>> immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem >>>>>>> then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find >>>>>>> something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is >>>>>>> some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality >>>>>>> and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and >>>>>>> then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum >>>>>>> where reason and rational argument are far less important than
targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend >>>>>>> to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like >>>>>>> 90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the
Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar >>>>>>> saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to >>>>>>> Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ
for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population
voices heard.
With support from others as well: >>>>>https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill.
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have >>>>>read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill >>>>>it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong >>>>>with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and >>>>>the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear, >>>>>especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history.
They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing.
They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles" >>>>>three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty >>>>>this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >>>>>articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel >>>>>Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >>>>>Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori >>>>>of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political >>>>>authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga) >>>>>provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of >>>>>Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by >>>>>recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty >>>>>settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts, >>>>>which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >>>>>indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not >>>>>recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to >>>>>be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and >>>>>customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in >>>>>a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past >>>>>Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities. >>>>>There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine >>>>>and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the >>>>>Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a >>>>>polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers >>>>>) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right >>>>>to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a >>>>>disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with >>>>>Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold >>>>>Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation >>>>>for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,” >>>>>said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need >>>>>for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi? >>>>>Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all >>>>>over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss?
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of >>>>>"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing >>>>>ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with >>>>>the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations >>>>>and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert >>>>>the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down >>>>>on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited >>>>>pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school >>>>>principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an >>>>>"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and >>>>>I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls" >>>>>surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as >>>>>I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi >>>>>signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry >>>>>and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this >>>>>country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home >>>>>the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific >>>>>Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my >>>>>Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about >>>>>The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged >>>>>about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >>>>>surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant >>>>>child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is >>>>>that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does >>>>>not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but >>>>>those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an >>>>>apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society >>>>>as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say - >>>>>it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women. >>>>>This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people, >>>>>rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the >>>>>disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the >>>>>vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for >>>>>250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private >>>>>detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and >>>>>protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst >>>>>us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not >>>>>one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >>>>>indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more >>>>>injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >>>>>together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the >>>>>Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't >>>>>know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship >>>>>with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility >>>>>but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work >>>>>and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi >>>>>was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and >>>>>kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out >>>>>onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and >>>>>everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets >>>>>on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first >>>>>reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill, >>>>>for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select >>>>>committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First >>>>>Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance >>>>>by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why? >>>>>What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are >>>>>pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and >>>>>racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour
Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets >>>>>freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your >>>>>Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1 >>>>>states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values >>>>>and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all >>>>>others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us >>>>>all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >>>>>enshrined in multiple Laws.
Of course it is racist - Seymour wants a smaller state, dominated by >>>large Corporates - so he wants government to abandon Maori
So what part of the Bill does this? Is the opposition to the Bill
based solely on opposition to ACT?
andThat is an outright lie. National will not support this Bill any
National are sympathetic - they are stopping some reporting on those >>>needing assistance as the increases are embarrassing. His aim is not
to get it through parliament, but to get the racists in our country to >>>see reneging on the Treaty as a pathway to greater wealth for
themselves - and get enough support to get it put to a referendum.
further and the rest of what you have said above is simply irrelevant
(to the Bill) rhetoric.
Of course National is supporting the Bill - as plenty of people have
pointed out, it is in the coalition agreement!
So it is worth looking
at just what that agreement said.
A quick search took me to: >https://www.national.org.nz/press/national-act-and-new-zealand-first-to-deliver-for-all-new-zealanders
and there are link at the bottom of the page. Click on the agreement
with ACT, and - what a surprise - the link appears to be (temporarily
I am sure!) currently inactive.
Never fear; there is another link: >https://www.act.org.nz/coalition_agreement_means_lower_cost_of_life_safer_streets_stronger_democracy
and from that link, only the fifth bullet point down, we see:
"Introduce a Treaty Principles Bill based on ACT’s policy and support
it to a select committee."
Now we know that when National wanted one bill to go through quickly
and without a lot of publicity, they imposed a 5 day deadline on
submissions to a Select Committee, and legislation was rushed through
very quickly after that. We also know that Seymour has abhorred waste,
and that he has insisted that some issues be given a rigorous
cost/benefit analysis before being allowed to proceed. Presumably that
has been done, since a decision has been announced that the select
Committee will meet for six months!
So it is quite reasonable to ask just what those "benefits" are . . .
.
And no I am not able to give an answer to that question - just as it
seems David Seymour and Chris Luxon are not able to.
So we saw the legislation introduced, conveniently moved forward to a
day when Christopher Luxon was out of the country, and some other
National Ministers also found themselves busy with other commitments.
So yes, clearly National are supporting the Bill being open for
discussion for a very extended period - that is taking the public
discourse further, purportedly to allow Seymour to convince the
public, and even possibly the National Party, to support the bill
further.
You could well ask, just who is in charge, and what does Seymour hope
to achieve? Or of more interest, what does Luxon and the National
caucus hope to achieve? Who is really leading this Government?
Would you trust a government that seeks to renege on a contracts made
by a previous government - in this case at the start of our Nation?
Not at all. We have no such government.
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that
will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no
chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let
alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to
submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is
pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in
large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill
for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition
negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of
political attention for a time.
After the antics of the Maori Party in parliament the other day this
needs to go all the way to a vote. These TPM clowns need to be
kicked out of parliament. NZ made the laughing stock of the world.
On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 11:31:48 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 10:42:20 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 13:32:24 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 22:16:31 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 01:35:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2024 23:29:19 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:All of thatb is in fact racist, not the bill which is the opposite.
On 2024-11-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:10:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
With the Hikoi and all the other protests about this Bill, it seems to
me that the Bill's opponents have lost the plot. This is a bill that >>>>>>>>>>will suffer the same fate as the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi >>>>>>>>>>Deletion Bill:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
So why all the fuss? It is supported only by ACT so there is no >>>>>>>>>>chance that the current Bill will even get to a third reading, let >>>>>>>>>>alone be passed into law. The protestors have the same right to >>>>>>>>>>submit to a Select Committee as everyone else but doing so is >>>>>>>>>>pointless for a Bill that will not proceed.
The Bill has succeeded in giving ACT and its leader free publicity in >>>>>>>>>>large quantities. While I don't doubt that ACT stand behind the Bill >>>>>>>>>>for genuine reasons, making it a sticking point in coalition >>>>>>>>>>negotiations is over-reach unless ACT wanted to be the centre of >>>>>>>>>>political attention for a time.
Publicity is always good, but power is better, even if it is not >>>>>>>>> immediate. Think of Brexit, and more recently Trump - create a problem
then present the right as the only possible saviours . . . So find >>>>>>>>> something that can be exploited, stir it up by pretending there is >>>>>>>>> some huge injustice in favour of a minority, use words like equality >>>>>>>>> and fairness and ignore concepts such as sanctity of contract, and >>>>>>>>> then when a bill fails to be supported, put it through a referendum >>>>>>>>> where reason and rational argument are far less important than >>>>>>>>> targeted propaganda - when an issue is 'dividing the nation' we tend >>>>>>>>> to think of something more like 50/50 than the reality of more like >>>>>>>>> 90% supporting our current laws. If Trump can take over the >>>>>>>>> Republican Party in the USA, why could David Seymour not be a similar >>>>>>>>> saviour of a deeply divided New Zealand and a worthy successor to >>>>>>>>> Christopher Luxon?
Different situations. Labour and National will be the two main parties in NZ
for many years to come.
The minor parties are in affect a way of getting a section of the population
voices heard.
With support from others as well: >>>>>>>https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/pharmac-to-disestablish-its-maori-advisory-group/DXQQMPMKRNAS7PRLU3RAOL74ZE/
See also:
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
Article and comments below:
"Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour >>>>>>>Today is the day of the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill. >>>>>>>
Its four pages long, has nine clauses and is simplistic and yes I have >>>>>>>read it.
Clearly 42 King’s Counsel Lawyers have read the bill and they say kill >>>>>>>it now while Sean Plunket racks his tiny brain asking "what's wrong >>>>>>>with it?", Don Brash says it gives Maori too much in article 2, and >>>>>>>the Dunning Kruger racists say "it makes a lot of common sense".
"That Seymour he sounds sensible" to the ignorant pakeha ear, >>>>>>>especially the older male pakeha who never learned NZ history. >>>>>>>They are already sold and he has their vote.
I mean what's not to like? Seymour herded them into his framing. >>>>>>>They don't even know Act have now changed their "treaty principles" >>>>>>>three times in the past two years...which shows how cheap and nasty >>>>>>>this shite-show really is.
Seymour reckons people out protesting in the hikoi don't know how to >>>>>>>articulate what they are protesting about but 42 King’s Counsel >>>>>>>Lawyers most certainly do.
42 King’s Counsel Lawyers wrote to Luxon seeking he abandon the Treaty >>>>>>>Principles Bill cos it erases the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Maori >>>>>>>of tino rangatiratanga (chieftainship/self-determination/political >>>>>>>authority in relation to their communities, lands, and other taonga) >>>>>>>provided in exchange for agreement by Maori to the establishment of >>>>>>>Crown kawanatanga/governance.
The 42 KCs also reckon Seymour and Luxon have messed up things by >>>>>>>recognising Maori rights only when incorporated into Treaty >>>>>>>settlements with the Crown, this also attempts to exclude the courts, >>>>>>>which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting >>>>>>>indigenous and minority rights.
Worse “The proposed ‘Principle 3’, the right to equality, does not >>>>>>>recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Maori of the right to >>>>>>>be Maori and to have their tikanga Maori (customs, values and >>>>>>>customary law) recognised and protected in our law.
Stuff reported that the Waitangi Tribunal has pointed out, ‘people in >>>>>>>a liberal democracy can and do have different rights’.
Nor does Seymour's bill recognise the impact of colonisation and past >>>>>>>Treaty breaches on Maori, which have created profound inequalities. >>>>>>>There's so much wrong with Seymour's attempt to unilaterally redefine >>>>>>>and rewrite the constitutional relationship between Maori with the >>>>>>>Crown that only the dumbest most ignorant racists would ever tell a >>>>>>>polling company they agree with it.
Strong words? Not really. Just accurate.
It's about racism among other things.
Stuff ran an unscientific online poll ( easily gamed by savvy hackers >>>>>>>) yesterday which suggested 42% of New Zealand are against the right >>>>>>>to protest in the form of a Hikoi.
The brown skinned, democratic traffic disruption is for many a >>>>>>>disruption they cannot abide by, like they may otherwise be okay with >>>>>>>Traffic disruption involving white farmers with tractors or a Cold >>>>>>>Play concert at Eden Park.
"“One morning of disruption for some will be a morning of liberation >>>>>>>for others and cannot possibly compare to 180 years of injustice,” >>>>>>>said Hikoi organisers.
For others it is a recourse to apathy - something like there's no need >>>>>>>for protest cos we know people are annoyed so why bother with a Hikoi? >>>>>>>Why bother speaking up. Sit back, relax and let the majority walk all >>>>>>>over you and your rights, cos it's not effecting me so why the fuss? >>>>>>>
To make this point more strongly we have just endured several days of >>>>>>>"white fright" stirred up by "the same old group" of Maori bashing >>>>>>>ugly white know it alls who really know bugger all.
They have stirred up segments of ignorant society into grievance with >>>>>>>the Hikoi - belittling the people on it, making crass generalisations >>>>>>>and telling themselves they are not racists but ...then they insert >>>>>>>the racism that follows.
The ignorance and the pity.
Mark Mitchell has warned on all channels that police will crack down >>>>>>>on any crime around the Hikoi, while Davey Boy and discredited >>>>>>>pollster David Farrah have lashed out viciously at any school >>>>>>>principal who dares to let a child go on the Hikoi without an >>>>>>>"unjustified absence" to punish that decision.
This is special treatment we have not seen for any other protests and >>>>>>>I think Taika Waititi was correct about New Zealand.
You see it in the 'democratisation" and "unscientific polls" >>>>>>>surrounding anything to do with these sorts of issues.
Yesterday I got out of bed way too late to catch the 6am ferry but as >>>>>>>I made my way onto the wharf I saw two women decked out with Hikoi >>>>>>>signs and I asked them about their plans.
Next minute I am seated with them on the 6.45am Island Direct Ferry >>>>>>>and we are embroiled in a conversation about discrimination in this >>>>>>>country.
I mentioned to them how back in the 1970s a family member brought home >>>>>>>the word "coconuts" from school - to describe people from the Pacific >>>>>>>Islands - and that was installed into my child brain.
Such terms were used on 1ZB rather frequently back then.
I was already disconnected from NZ history and thank goodness for my >>>>>>>Dad speaking up and talking about injustice and bringing a book about >>>>>>>The Treaty home - one I stole from his bedside to read up on - aged >>>>>>>about 12.
The quiet racist discrimination was part of the culture our family was >>>>>>>surrounded by - and it was taking a toll on me - a vanilla, ignorant >>>>>>>child, and despite my parents objecting to such language - my point is >>>>>>>that school and friends and others - say these things - and who does >>>>>>>not have that racist uncle who always says - he was only joking but >>>>>>>those "bloody mawries" and "mark my words New Zealand will be an >>>>>>>apartheid state soon"
Yeah that's what I feel was out there and around me in white society >>>>>>>as I grew up and now I was listening to the women on the ferry say - >>>>>>>it is the same discrimination - that has also been directed at women. >>>>>>>This week we heard all about discrimination against gay people, >>>>>>>rainbow community folk, minorities, even the disabled - even the >>>>>>>disabled - from this ugly culture that is fond of mocking the >>>>>>>vulnerable and othering the different.
That culture was guilty of abuse in State Care and Church Care for >>>>>>>250,000 children in new Zealand and - the State even hired private >>>>>>>detectives to find dirt on the victims so they could close ranks and >>>>>>>protect their reputations while letting these monsters walk amongst >>>>>>>us.
Monsters grown in this culture.
Right so I think it's fair to say that this sort of society - is not >>>>>>>one who should be deciding constitutional matters for a disadvantaged >>>>>>>indigenous minority using it's majority to perpetuate even more >>>>>>>injustice.
That's Australia not this place.
It's Atlas and Seymour is one of them...
Churches - as bad as they may be in some areas - at least have rallied >>>>>>>together to oppose this injustice from Seymour, and the far right, the >>>>>>>Atlas Network and all the brutally racist people out there who don't >>>>>>>know their arse from their ear about the history of our relationship >>>>>>>with Maori.
Overwhelmingly I felt the aroha on the Hikoi yesterday, and humility >>>>>>>but also belonging. Hundreds of thousands stayed away because of work >>>>>>>and health and logistics - but they were there in spirit.
We've been making progress and it was obvious to me that this Hikoi >>>>>>>was very well planned and it rolled with changes as they occurred and >>>>>>>kept everyone safe.
"Keep the tamariki in the middle" was the instruction as we went out >>>>>>>onto the bridge and I filmed amongst warm singing and chanting and >>>>>>>everyone was like a great big whanau.
Today the Hikoi travels to Hamilton as the gutless coward Luxon gets >>>>>>>on a plane out of Dodge while his MPs support the Bill at its first >>>>>>>reading.
What a day of shame for Luxon. Shame on him for not killing the bill, >>>>>>>for his gutless leadership, for the inability to shorten the Select >>>>>>>committee time and for agreeing to bring the date of today's First >>>>>>>Reading forward - knowing he would escape scrutiny and create distance >>>>>>>by doing so.
Have you read the Bill? Yeah.
42 Kings Counsel Lawyers have and they say kill it.
Yet to the far right and the racists - they will go on asking but why? >>>>>>>What's wrong with it - no matter how many times the reasons are >>>>>>>pointed out and now - here come the polls to confirm how dumb and >>>>>>>racist large portions of our society still are.
Seymour and Luxon have gone about this in a disgraceful way.
Voters should punish this at the 2026 election.
How ridiculous that we are even doing this.
Luxon's Day of Shame as Dunning Kruger Racists join Seymour >>>>>>>Morena
G
Tee Whitecloud
Speaking of Rights, Seymour might need to take a look at the pamphlets >>>>>>>freely available in Drs' surgeries up and down the motu. ' Your >>>>>>>Rights' when using a health or disability service etc. Right No.1 >>>>>>>states that 'your cultural, religious, social and ethnic needs, values >>>>>>>and beliefs should be taken into account'. This Right along with all >>>>>>>others is protected under Law. For Seymour to keep trying to turn us >>>>>>>all into one homogenous blob just will not work. Rights for Maori are >>>>>>>enshrined in multiple Laws.
Of course it is racist - Seymour wants a smaller state, dominated by >>>>>large Corporates - so he wants government to abandon Maori
So what part of the Bill does this? Is the opposition to the Bill >>>>based solely on opposition to ACT?
andThat is an outright lie. National will not support this Bill any >>>>further and the rest of what you have said above is simply irrelevant >>>>(to the Bill) rhetoric.
National are sympathetic - they are stopping some reporting on those >>>>>needing assistance as the increases are embarrassing. His aim is not >>>>>to get it through parliament, but to get the racists in our country to >>>>>see reneging on the Treaty as a pathway to greater wealth for >>>>>themselves - and get enough support to get it put to a referendum.
Of course National is supporting the Bill - as plenty of people have >>>pointed out, it is in the coalition agreement!
That is not correct. National have agreed to the bill being given a
first reading and then referred to a Select Committee. That is where
it is now and that is where it will stay. If National actually
supported the bill they would not vote against it at a second reading
(if it ever gets that far).
Simple really - except for the likes of you who don't seem to
understand the difference between 'agree' and ';support'.
So it is worth lookingAs usual you have wandered way off-topic with political rhetoric.
at just what that agreement said.
A quick search took me to: >>>https://www.national.org.nz/press/national-act-and-new-zealand-first-to-deliver-for-all-new-zealanders
and there are link at the bottom of the page. Click on the agreement
with ACT, and - what a surprise - the link appears to be (temporarily
I am sure!) currently inactive.
Never fear; there is another link: >>>https://www.act.org.nz/coalition_agreement_means_lower_cost_of_life_safer_streets_stronger_democracy
and from that link, only the fifth bullet point down, we see:
"Introduce a Treaty Principles Bill based on ACT’s policy and support
it to a select committee."
Now we know that when National wanted one bill to go through quickly
and without a lot of publicity, they imposed a 5 day deadline on >>>submissions to a Select Committee, and legislation was rushed through >>>very quickly after that. We also know that Seymour has abhorred waste, >>>and that he has insisted that some issues be given a rigorous >>>cost/benefit analysis before being allowed to proceed. Presumably that >>>has been done, since a decision has been announced that the select >>>Committee will meet for six months!
So it is quite reasonable to ask just what those "benefits" are . . .
.
And no I am not able to give an answer to that question - just as it >>>seems David Seymour and Chris Luxon are not able to.
So we saw the legislation introduced, conveniently moved forward to a
day when Christopher Luxon was out of the country, and some other >>>National Ministers also found themselves busy with other commitments.
So yes, clearly National are supporting the Bill being open for >>>discussion for a very extended period - that is taking the public >>>discourse further, purportedly to allow Seymour to convince the
public, and even possibly the National Party, to support the bill >>>further.
You could well ask, just who is in charge, and what does Seymour hope
to achieve? Or of more interest, what does Luxon and the National
caucus hope to achieve? Who is really leading this Government?
"The Treaty Principles Bill - objective achieved?"
So what was the objective? And has it been achieved?
Would you trust a government that seeks to renege on a contracts made >>>>>by a previous government - in this case at the start of our Nation?
Not at all. We have no such government.
Did it get reported overseas?
Did anyone laugh?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 10:46:25 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hard to enjoy something which very accurately points out how pathetic the TPM party is. They are incapable of debate so they disrupt and they become aggressive. Then they justify this in some obscure reference to "culture".Did it get reported overseas?
Did anyone laugh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl1iZbqlN7c
Enjoy.
Bill.
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