https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabIYes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming harder for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be.
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got the >results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were >sabotarged.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabI
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming harder >for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be.
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got the >>results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were >>sabotarged.
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 21:59:57 -0000 (UTC), TonyNew Zealand did not do very well at all. If we did better than other countries, and that is not proven, it doesn't mean we did very well. It simply means that the government of the day made it appear as though we did very well, there is once more no proof of that.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabI
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming harder >>for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be.
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got the >>>results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were >>>sabotarged.
An interesting video - the speaker was from Canada but some of the
discussion was about the USA - and nothing about the rest of the
world.
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the
most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine,
of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our
death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in
staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs
require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly
are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number
of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the
protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were
not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also
kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions,
infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current
age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix -
the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from
the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a
multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ
was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death
rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out
that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates.
As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been
affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use
bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some
other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system
did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of
funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses
were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers -
and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly
than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 01:17:08 -0000 (UTC), TonyYour assertion is the opposite and you have provided nothing to support it but base;lless opinion. You first.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 21:59:57 -0000 (UTC), TonyNew Zealand did not do very well at all.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabIAn interesting video - the speaker was from Canada but some of the >>>discussion was about the USA - and nothing about the rest of the
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming >>>>harder
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got the >>>>>results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were >>>>>sabotarged.
for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be. >>>
world.
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine,
of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our
death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number
of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were
not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also
kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions,
infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix -
the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ
was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death
rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates.
As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use
bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system
did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly
than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
That is,of course, irrelevant. Why are you such a baby?If we did better than other countries,Lets stick to facts shall we? Certainly Labour were not able to blame
and that is not proven, it doesn't mean we did very well. It simply means >>that
the government of the day made it appear as though we did very well, there is >>once more no proof of that.
the Covid pandemic on the previous government.
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that didYou have not read what I wrote, try again.
better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well - it did help not to have a large number of employers have to
close and lay employees off as happened in some countries
You answer my questions first and then i will provide you with intelligence.There are no laurels to rest on here, only lessons to be learnt.
That depends of course on what your objective was - what lessons do
you have in mind, Tony?
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 21:59:57 -0000 (UTC), TonyNew Zealand did not do very well at all.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabI
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming harder >>>for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be.
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got the >>>>results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were >>>>sabotarged.
An interesting video - the speaker was from Canada but some of the >>discussion was about the USA - and nothing about the rest of the
world.
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the
most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine,
of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our
death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in
staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly
are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number
of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were
not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also
kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions,
infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current
age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix -
the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from
the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ
was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death
rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out
that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates.
As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been
affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use
bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some
other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system
did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of
funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses
were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers -
and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly
than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
If we did better than other countries,Lets stick to facts shall we? Certainly Labour were not able to blame
and that is not proven, it doesn't mean we did very well. It simply means that >the government of the day made it appear as though we did very well, there is >once more no proof of that.
There are no laurels to rest on here, only lessons to be learnt.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 01:17:08 -0000 (UTC), TonyYour assertion is the opposite and you have provided nothing to support it but >base;lless opinion. You first.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 21:59:57 -0000 (UTC), TonyNew Zealand did not do very well at all.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabIAn interesting video - the speaker was from Canada but some of the >>>>discussion was about the USA - and nothing about the rest of the
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming >>>>>harder
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got the
results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were >>>>>>sabotarged.
for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be. >>>>
world.
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine, >>>>of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our >>>>death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number >>>>of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were >>>>not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also >>>>kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions, >>>>infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix - >>>>the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ >>>>was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death >>>>rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates. >>>>As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use >>>>bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system >>>>did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly >>>>than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
That is,of course, irrelevant. Why are you such a baby?
If we did better than other countries,Lets stick to facts shall we? Certainly Labour were not able to blame
and that is not proven, it doesn't mean we did very well. It simply means >>>that
the government of the day made it appear as though we did very well, there is
once more no proof of that.
the Covid pandemic on the previous government.
You have not read what I wrote, try again.
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did
better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well - it did help not to have a large number of employers have to
close and lay employees off as happened in some countries
You answer my questions first and then i will provide you with intelligence. So you have none - as I thought.
There are no laurels to rest on here, only lessons to be learnt.
That depends of course on what your objective was - what lessons do
you have in mind, Tony?
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 07:44:39 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat does not address my concern or what I wrote, please get some help and try harder.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 01:17:08 -0000 (UTC), TonyYour assertion is the opposite and you have provided nothing to support it >>but
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 21:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:New Zealand did not do very well at all.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabIAn interesting video - the speaker was from Canada but some of the >>>>>discussion was about the USA - and nothing about the rest of the >>>>>world.
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming >>>>>>harder
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got >>>>>>>the
results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were
sabotarged.
for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be. >>>>>
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid >>>>>on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine, >>>>>of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our >>>>>death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar >>>>>to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million, >>>>>and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups >>>>>close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number >>>>>of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps >>>>>spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made >>>>>it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were >>>>>not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form >>>>>of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also >>>>>kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions, >>>>>infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix - >>>>>the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not >>>>>look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past. >>>>>Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ >>>>>was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death >>>>>rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates. >>>>>As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that >>>>>took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have >>>>>quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use >>>>>bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system >>>>>did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly >>>>>than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we >>>>>did so well in international terms.
base;lless opinion. You first.
It is in the video - follow the link, compare New Zealand with any
other country you like, and see for yourself.
That is,of course, irrelevant. Why are you such a baby?If we did better than other countries,Lets stick to facts shall we? Certainly Labour were not able to blame
and that is not proven, it doesn't mean we did very well. It simply means >>>>that
the government of the day made it appear as though we did very well, there >>>>is
once more no proof of that.
the Covid pandemic on the previous government.
You have not read what I wrote, try again.
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did
better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well - it did help not to have a large number of employers have to
close and lay employees off as happened in some countries
You answer my questions first and then i will provide you with intelligence. >So you have none - as I thought.
There are no laurels to rest on here, only lessons to be learnt.
That depends of course on what your objective was - what lessons do
you have in mind, Tony?
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did
better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did
better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:Just repetitive garbage. That is not correct.
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did
better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video that was in the original post, but has
now unfortunately been deleted. It was to excess deaths - a
calculation made by an international body that looked at expected
deaths from immediately pre-Covid, to deaths during each period after
Covid hit. It does not depend on cause of death, but the onset of
Covid infection shows in most countries by an increase in deaths. For
New Zealand, it showed by a reduction in deaths - attributed to two
main reasons - first road deaths reduced during lock down as traffic
was significantly reduced; secondly retirement villages and rest homes
were fairly quickly locked down with precautions against infection.
Later results would have been affected by more infections, and also by
more people being vaccinated.
The tables are freely available - google excess covid deaths, and
create a graphical summary of results for countries you want - you
will see that New Zealand did better than Australia, similar to
Taiwan, and vastly better than the USA and UK.
Our economic recovery was notable as well - the payments to businesses
to pay employees ensured that we did not have large numbers of people
in financial difficulties; and we retained a very high credit rating
compared with other countries. Our GDP growth was affected, but much
less than most countries, and as the epidemic continued we were most
affected by transport problems - affecting both exports and imports.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:I am sorry you appear to be unable to access information from the
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 07:44:39 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat does not address my concern or what I wrote, please get some help and try >harder.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 01:17:08 -0000 (UTC), TonyYour assertion is the opposite and you have provided nothing to support it >>>but
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 21:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:New Zealand did not do very well at all.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabIAn interesting video - the speaker was from Canada but some of the >>>>>>discussion was about the USA - and nothing about the rest of the >>>>>>world.
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming >>>>>>>harder
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got >>>>>>>>the
results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials were
sabotarged.
for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be. >>>>>>
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>>>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid >>>>>>on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>>>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>>>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine, >>>>>>of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our >>>>>>death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar >>>>>>to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million, >>>>>>and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>>>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>>>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>>>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>>>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups >>>>>>close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number >>>>>>of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps >>>>>>spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>>>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made >>>>>>it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>>>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were >>>>>>not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form >>>>>>of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also >>>>>>kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions, >>>>>>infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>>>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix - >>>>>>the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>>>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not >>>>>>look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past. >>>>>>Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>>>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ >>>>>>was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death >>>>>>rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>>>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates. >>>>>>As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>>>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that >>>>>>took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have >>>>>>quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use >>>>>>bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>>>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>>>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system >>>>>>did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>>>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>>>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>>>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>>>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly >>>>>>than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>>>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we >>>>>>did so well in international terms.
base;lless opinion. You first.
It is in the video - follow the link, compare New Zealand with any
other country you like, and see for yourself.
Abuse gone, will you ever learn any manners? No, I doubt it not at your age and
in your condition.
That is,of course, irrelevant. Why are you such a baby?If we did better than other countries,Lets stick to facts shall we? Certainly Labour were not able to blame >>>>the Covid pandemic on the previous government.
and that is not proven, it doesn't mean we did very well. It simply means >>>>>that
the government of the day made it appear as though we did very well, there >>>>>is
once more no proof of that.
You have not read what I wrote, try again.
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well - it did help not to have a large number of employers have to >>>>close and lay employees off as happened in some countries
You answer my questions first and then i will provide you with intelligence. >>So you have none - as I thought.
There are no laurels to rest on here, only lessons to be learnt.
That depends of course on what your objective was - what lessons do
you have in mind, Tony?
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 19:11:23 -0000 (UTC), TonyDrunk already Rich? Or have you lost you paper bag?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:I am sorry you appear to be unable to access information from the
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 07:44:39 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat does not address my concern or what I wrote, please get some help and >>try
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 01:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Your assertion is the opposite and you have provided nothing to support it >>>>but
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 21:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:New Zealand did not do very well at all.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bFtIpbabI
Yes - more and more experts are now being listened to, it is becoming >>>>>>>>harder
Regina Watteel, a PHD is stats shows why the results from the case got >>>>>>>>>the
results that were published.
Note that it is hard to show how many lives were saved as the trials >>>>>>>>>were
sabotarged.
for those in power to suppress expert opinion - that is as it should be.
An interesting video - the speaker was from Canada but some of the >>>>>>>discussion was about the USA - and nothing about the rest of the >>>>>>>world.
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>>>>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid >>>>>>>on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>>>>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>>>>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine, >>>>>>>of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our >>>>>>>death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar >>>>>>>to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million, >>>>>>>and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>>>>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>>>>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>>>>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>>>>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups >>>>>>>close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number >>>>>>>of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps >>>>>>>spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>>>>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made >>>>>>>it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>>>>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were >>>>>>>not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form >>>>>>>of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also >>>>>>>kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions, >>>>>>>infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>>>>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix - >>>>>>>the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>>>>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not >>>>>>>look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past. >>>>>>>Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>>>>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ >>>>>>>was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death >>>>>>>rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>>>>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates. >>>>>>>As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>>>>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that >>>>>>>took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have >>>>>>>quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use >>>>>>>bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>>>>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>>>>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system >>>>>>>did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>>>>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>>>>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>>>>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>>>>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly >>>>>>>than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>>>>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we >>>>>>>did so well in international terms.
base;lless opinion. You first.
It is in the video - follow the link, compare New Zealand with any
other country you like, and see for yourself.
harder.
internet.
Abuse gone, will you ever learn any manners? No, I doubt it not at your age >>and
in your condition.
So you have none - as I thought.That is,of course, irrelevant. Why are you such a baby?If we did better than other countries,Lets stick to facts shall we? Certainly Labour were not able to blame >>>>>the Covid pandemic on the previous government.
and that is not proven, it doesn't mean we did very well. It simply means >>>>>>that
the government of the day made it appear as though we did very well, >>>>>>there
is
once more no proof of that.
You have not read what I wrote, try again.
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>well - it did help not to have a large number of employers have to >>>>>close and lay employees off as happened in some countries
You answer my questions first and then i will provide you with intelligence.
There are no laurels to rest on here, only lessons to be learnt.
That depends of course on what your objective was - what lessons do >>>>>you have in mind, Tony?
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did
better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as
well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Bill.
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or
perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to
delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the
thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of
Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or
perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of
Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
I'm not interested in your links. Anyone can post numerous links to
support every conceivable argument. Even flat Earthers can post links.
You said: "The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains
one of the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect
of Covid on each nation."
Again, what measure did YOU use to decide that conclusion? Why is it
one of the most useful international comparisons?
Bill.
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 21:29:01 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:I have done no such thing and have deleted nothing in this thread. You need to stop drinkg meths, it will eventually blind you.
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Oh Dear - and there you have the reason why the far-right nutter loves
to delete posts . . .
My first post to this thread said:
__________________________
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the
most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine,
of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our
death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in
staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs
require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly
are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number
of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the
protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were
not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also
kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions,
infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current
age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix -
the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from
the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a
multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ
was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death
rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out
that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates.
As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been
affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use
bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some
other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system
did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of
funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses
were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers -
and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly
than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
________________________________
Now those references were not enough for the nutter, he could not find
them, but when you asked I thought it reasonable to post them - and
now you have deleted the links I gave for the data comparisons that
confirm what I have said in many posts - and then asked me for them
again! So just for you, here it all is again:
"Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or
perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to
delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the
thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of
Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?time=earliest..2023-01-02&facet=none&country=NZL~CAN~AUS
Now that one misses out the USA - to the right of the chart is a list
of countries, go down that list and click on United States - they are
a bit of an outlier for losing a lot of people through Covid . . .
There have been estimates that if New Zealand had experienced the same
level of excess deaths as the USA we would have had 22,000 more deaths
. . .
That chart adds excess deaths to give cumulative results - also ofYou really don't understand English so why don't you stop trying.
interest are the results for each period - see: >https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-average-baseline?time=earliest..2021-12-19&country=USA~NZL~AUS
You will notice that Australia and New Zealand, with smaller
populations than the USA, have results that change more from month to
month - an extra say 5 deaths in a month for New Zealand will move the
graph more than an extra 5 in the USA
See also:
https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000282eoc
which has this note at the top:
"The integrity team and editors are investigating issues raised
regarding the quality and messaging of this work. The Princess Máxima
Centre, which is listed as the affiliation of three of the four
authors, is also investigating the scientific quality of this study.1
The integrity team has contacted the institution regarding their >investigation.
Readers should also be alerted to misreporting and misunderstanding of
the work. It has been claimed that the work implies a direct causal
link between COVID-19 vaccination and mortality. This study does not >establish any such link. The researchers looked only at trends in
excess mortality over time, not its causes. The research does not
support the claim that vaccines are a major contributory factor to
excess deaths since the start of the pandemic. Vaccines have, in fact,
been instrumental in reducing the severe illness and death associated
with COVID-19 infection.""
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or
perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of
Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
I'm not interested in your links. Anyone can post numerous links to
support every conceivable argument. Even flat Earthers can post links.
You said: "The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains
one of the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect
of Covid on each nation."
Again, what measure did YOU use to decide that conclusion? Why is it
one of the most useful international comparisons?
Bill.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 21:29:01 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:I have done no such thing and have deleted nothing in this thread. You need to >stop drinkg meths, it will eventually blind you.
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Oh Dear - and there you have the reason why the far-right nutter loves
to delete posts . . .
My first post to this thread said:
__________________________
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the
most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine,
of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our
death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in
staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly
are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number
of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were
not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also
kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions,
infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current
age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix -
the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from
the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ
was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death
rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out
that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates.
As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been
affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use
bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some
other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system
did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of
funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses
were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers -
and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly
than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
________________________________
Now those references were not enough for the nutter, he could not find >>them, but when you asked I thought it reasonable to post them - and
now you have deleted the links I gave for the data comparisons that
confirm what I have said in many posts - and then asked me for them
again! So just for you, here it all is again:
"Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or
perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one ofYou really don't understand English so why don't you stop trying.
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of
Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?time=earliest..2023-01-02&facet=none&country=NZL~CAN~AUS
Now that one misses out the USA - to the right of the chart is a list
of countries, go down that list and click on United States - they are
a bit of an outlier for losing a lot of people through Covid . . .
There have been estimates that if New Zealand had experienced the same >>level of excess deaths as the USA we would have had 22,000 more deaths
. . .
That chart adds excess deaths to give cumulative results - also of
interest are the results for each period - see: >>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-average-baseline?time=earliest..2021-12-19&country=USA~NZL~AUS
You will notice that Australia and New Zealand, with smaller
populations than the USA, have results that change more from month to
month - an extra say 5 deaths in a month for New Zealand will move the >>graph more than an extra 5 in the USA
See also:
https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000282eoc
which has this note at the top:
"The integrity team and editors are investigating issues raised
regarding the quality and messaging of this work. The Princess Máxima >>Centre, which is listed as the affiliation of three of the four
authors, is also investigating the scientific quality of this study.1
The integrity team has contacted the institution regarding their >>investigation.
Readers should also be alerted to misreporting and misunderstanding of
the work. It has been claimed that the work implies a direct causal
link between COVID-19 vaccination and mortality. This study does not >>establish any such link. The researchers looked only at trends in
excess mortality over time, not its causes. The research does not
support the claim that vaccines are a major contributory factor to
excess deaths since the start of the pandemic. Vaccines have, in fact,
been instrumental in reducing the severe illness and death associated
with COVID-19 infection.""
Bill, I may not have covered your final request above. First, the data
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or >>>>perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>>thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of >>>>Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
I'm not interested in your links. Anyone can post numerous links to >>>support every conceivable argument. Even flat Earthers can post links.
You said: "The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains >>>one of the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect
of Covid on each nation."
Again, what measure did YOU use to decide that conclusion? Why is it
one of the most useful international comparisons?
Bill.
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 21:29:01 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Oh Dear - and there you have the reason why the far-right nutter loves
to delete posts . . .
My first post to this thread said:
__________________________
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the
most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 02:40:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou are a baby. It is you that does not comprehend or speak English. Do grow up.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 21:29:01 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:I have done no such thing and have deleted nothing in this thread. You need >>to
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Oh Dear - and there you have the reason why the far-right nutter loves
to delete posts . . .
My first post to this thread said:
__________________________
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine,
of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our
death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number
of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were
not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also
kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions,
infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix -
the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ
was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death
rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates.
As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use
bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system
did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly
than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
________________________________
Now those references were not enough for the nutter, he could not find >>>them, but when you asked I thought it reasonable to post them - and
now you have deleted the links I gave for the data comparisons that >>>confirm what I have said in many posts - and then asked me for them >>>again! So just for you, here it all is again:
"Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or
perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>thread I said:
stop drinkg meths, it will eventually blind you.
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one ofYou really don't understand English so why don't you stop trying.
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of
Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?time=earliest..2023-01-02&facet=none&country=NZL~CAN~AUS
Now that one misses out the USA - to the right of the chart is a list
of countries, go down that list and click on United States - they are
a bit of an outlier for losing a lot of people through Covid . . .
There have been estimates that if New Zealand had experienced the same >>>level of excess deaths as the USA we would have had 22,000 more deaths
. . .
That chart adds excess deaths to give cumulative results - also of >>>interest are the results for each period - see: >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-average-baseline?time=earliest..2021-12-19&country=USA~NZL~AUS
You will notice that Australia and New Zealand, with smaller
populations than the USA, have results that change more from month to >>>month - an extra say 5 deaths in a month for New Zealand will move the >>>graph more than an extra 5 in the USA
See also:
https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000282eoc
which has this note at the top:
"The integrity team and editors are investigating issues raised
regarding the quality and messaging of this work. The Princess Máxima >>>Centre, which is listed as the affiliation of three of the four
authors, is also investigating the scientific quality of this study.1
The integrity team has contacted the institution regarding their >>>investigation.
Readers should also be alerted to misreporting and misunderstanding of >>>the work. It has been claimed that the work implies a direct causal
link between COVID-19 vaccination and mortality. This study does not >>>establish any such link. The researchers looked only at trends in
excess mortality over time, not its causes. The research does not
support the claim that vaccines are a major contributory factor to
excess deaths since the start of the pandemic. Vaccines have, in fact, >>>been instrumental in reducing the severe illness and death associated >>>with COVID-19 infection.""
So you don't think the British Medical Association (which owns the BMJ >Group), speaks English? I have quoted directly from the website -
link above. What are you on about now, Tony?
Off topic drivel goneBill, I may not have covered your final request
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or >>>>>perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>>>thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of >>>>>the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of >>>>>Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just >>>>>for you BR, here are a few links again:
I'm not interested in your links. Anyone can post numerous links to >>>>support every conceivable argument. Even flat Earthers can post links.
You said: "The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains >>>>one of the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect >>>>of Covid on each nation."
Again, what measure did YOU use to decide that conclusion? Why is it >>>>one of the most useful international comparisons?
Bill.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 11:26:08 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>Knowledge of the statistics involved, common sense, and intelligence.
wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 21:29:01 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Oh Dear - and there you have the reason why the far-right nutter loves
to delete posts . . .
My first post to this thread said:
__________________________
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the
most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation.
Exactly. That's what you said.
My question is: What measure did YOU use to decide that conclusion,
and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 02:40:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou are a baby. It is you that does not comprehend or speak English. Do grow up.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 21:29:01 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:I have done no such thing and have deleted nothing in this thread. You need >>>to
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Oh Dear - and there you have the reason why the far-right nutter loves >>>>to delete posts . . .
My first post to this thread said:
__________________________
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid
on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine, >>>>of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our >>>>death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar
to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million,
and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups
close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number >>>>of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps
spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made
it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were >>>>not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form
of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also >>>>kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions, >>>>infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix - >>>>the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not
look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past.
Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ >>>>was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death >>>>rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates. >>>>As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that
took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have
quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use >>>>bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system >>>>did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly >>>>than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we
did so well in international terms.
________________________________
Now those references were not enough for the nutter, he could not find >>>>them, but when you asked I thought it reasonable to post them - and
now you have deleted the links I gave for the data comparisons that >>>>confirm what I have said in many posts - and then asked me for them >>>>again! So just for you, here it all is again:
"Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or >>>>perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>>thread I said:
stop drinkg meths, it will eventually blind you.
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one ofYou really don't understand English so why don't you stop trying.
the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of >>>>Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just
for you BR, here are a few links again:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?time=earliest..2023-01-02&facet=none&country=NZL~CAN~AUS
Now that one misses out the USA - to the right of the chart is a list >>>>of countries, go down that list and click on United States - they are
a bit of an outlier for losing a lot of people through Covid . . .
There have been estimates that if New Zealand had experienced the same >>>>level of excess deaths as the USA we would have had 22,000 more deaths >>>>. . .
That chart adds excess deaths to give cumulative results - also of >>>>interest are the results for each period - see: >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-average-baseline?time=earliest..2021-12-19&country=USA~NZL~AUS
You will notice that Australia and New Zealand, with smaller >>>>populations than the USA, have results that change more from month to >>>>month - an extra say 5 deaths in a month for New Zealand will move the >>>>graph more than an extra 5 in the USA
See also:
https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000282eoc
which has this note at the top:
"The integrity team and editors are investigating issues raised >>>>regarding the quality and messaging of this work. The Princess Máxima >>>>Centre, which is listed as the affiliation of three of the four >>>>authors, is also investigating the scientific quality of this study.1 >>>>The integrity team has contacted the institution regarding their >>>>investigation.
Readers should also be alerted to misreporting and misunderstanding of >>>>the work. It has been claimed that the work implies a direct causal >>>>link between COVID-19 vaccination and mortality. This study does not >>>>establish any such link. The researchers looked only at trends in >>>>excess mortality over time, not its causes. The research does not >>>>support the claim that vaccines are a major contributory factor to >>>>excess deaths since the start of the pandemic. Vaccines have, in fact, >>>>been instrumental in reducing the severe illness and death associated >>>>with COVID-19 infection.""
So you don't think the British Medical Association (which owns the BMJ >>Group), speaks English? I have quoted directly from the website -
link above. What are you on about now, Tony?
Off topic drivel gone
Bill, I may not have covered your final request
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or >>>>>>perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>>>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>>>>thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of >>>>>>the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of >>>>>>Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just >>>>>>for you BR, here are a few links again:
I'm not interested in your links. Anyone can post numerous links to >>>>>support every conceivable argument. Even flat Earthers can post links. >>>>>
You said: "The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains >>>>>one of the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect >>>>>of Covid on each nation."
Again, what measure did YOU use to decide that conclusion? Why is it >>>>>one of the most useful international comparisons?
Bill.
If you want to converse with Bill, THen answer him not me.
Off topic drivel gone.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 06:30:11 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is bullshit, you are just being your usual, nasty, intellectually lazy, politically driven, sociopathic self. You know it and we know it!
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 02:40:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou are a baby. It is you that does not comprehend or speak English. Do grow >>up.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 21:29:01 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:I have done no such thing and have deleted nothing in this thread. You need >>>>to
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 09:53:55 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2025 04:47:37 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 15:34:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jan 2025 07:33:32 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
On Tue, 07 Jan 2025 20:33:03 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:
The reality is that I believe you cannot find any country that did >>>>>>>>>>>better in saving lives; and our economic recovery was very good as >>>>>>>>>>>well
Well that is your assertion - what measure did you use to decide that >>>>>>>>>>conclusion, and do you have any evidence that supports it?
Bill.
The reference was in the video blah blah blah...
The question was: "What measure did YOU use?"
Oh Dear - and there you have the reason why the far-right nutter loves >>>>>to delete posts . . .
My first post to this thread said:
__________________________
The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of the >>>>>most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of Covid >>>>>on each nation. Our Covid response was a combination of border closure >>>>>(easier for NZ than for most countries!), isolation, masks, and when >>>>>available (which was later than in some other countries), the vaccine, >>>>>of which there were a number of different brands and versions. Our >>>>>death rate from the injections themselves seems to have been similar >>>>>to other mass vaccination programmes - between 1 and 2 per million, >>>>>and while masks were encouraged, there was no clear answer as to how >>>>>effective they were - although those that have a vested interest in >>>>>staying safe - medical experts, tend to still use them, and many GPs >>>>>require them to be used in waiting rooms . . .
So where did infections and deaths come from? We know that the elderly >>>>>are particularly susceptible - and we also know that large groups >>>>>close together, like some church groups, can result in a large number >>>>>of cases from a small number of infected - perhaps singing helps >>>>>spread the infection . . . Rest homes / retirement villages were >>>>>particularly susceptible to an infected visitor - many of those made >>>>>it difficult for visitors to enter, and definitely saved lives.
Anecdotally, Wellington Hospital was very busy during the time of the >>>>>protest at Parliament - there were a large number of idiots that were >>>>>not vaccinated and took no precautions such as wearing masks. A form >>>>>of Darwinism - the idiots kill themselves - but sadly they may also >>>>>kill a few others.
So we know from experience that as we discarded restrictions, >>>>>infections grew, but the complexity of method of infection and current >>>>>age / health and vaccination status make a very complicated matrix - >>>>>the most reliable statistics we have for deaths are those derived from >>>>>the comparisons with mortality immediately pre-Covid - they do not >>>>>look at cause of death, but they are at least impartial.
I have posted links to those graphs plenty of times in the past. >>>>>Unlike the chart for the USA and the UK, which climbed quickly to a >>>>>multiple of pre-covid deaths, the rates for New Zealand reduced - NZ >>>>>was among a very small number of nations to experience lower death >>>>>rates than before Covid. One obvious reason was lower road deaths, out >>>>>that only accounted for a small part of the reduction in death rates. >>>>>As we moved back to more open movement, death rates will have been >>>>>affected by an unknown amount by increasing Covid deaths, but that >>>>>took quite some time.
So the link posted by Gordon at the top of this thread would have >>>>>quite a different summary for New Zealand. We never had to use >>>>>bulldozers for mass graves as did one state in the USA - and in some >>>>>other countries, and our management was fortunate to enable specialist >>>>>negative pressure rooms available for acute cases; our health system >>>>>did not deteriorate as it has in this last year - through lack of >>>>>funding. Our population retained confidence and while many businesses >>>>>were affected, government subsidies enabled people to get through with >>>>>minimum disruptions, and without income stopping from most employers - >>>>>and as a result New Zealand recovered in economic terms more quickly >>>>>than most other countries.
In summary, New Zealand did very well - the Subject of the thread of >>>>>"Incredible" is perhaps an appropriate term for the reality that we >>>>>did so well in international terms.
________________________________
Now those references were not enough for the nutter, he could not find >>>>>them, but when you asked I thought it reasonable to post them - and >>>>>now you have deleted the links I gave for the data comparisons that >>>>>confirm what I have said in many posts - and then asked me for them >>>>>again! So just for you, here it all is again:
"Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or >>>>>perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>>>thread I said:
stop drinkg meths, it will eventually blind you.
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of >>>>>the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of >>>>>Covid on each nation."You really don't understand English so why don't you stop trying.
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just >>>>>for you BR, here are a few links again:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?time=earliest..2023-01-02&facet=none&country=NZL~CAN~AUS
Now that one misses out the USA - to the right of the chart is a list >>>>>of countries, go down that list and click on United States - they are >>>>>a bit of an outlier for losing a lot of people through Covid . . .
There have been estimates that if New Zealand had experienced the same >>>>>level of excess deaths as the USA we would have had 22,000 more deaths >>>>>. . .
That chart adds excess deaths to give cumulative results - also of >>>>>interest are the results for each period - see: >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-average-baseline?time=earliest..2021-12-19&country=USA~NZL~AUS
You will notice that Australia and New Zealand, with smaller >>>>>populations than the USA, have results that change more from month to >>>>>month - an extra say 5 deaths in a month for New Zealand will move the >>>>>graph more than an extra 5 in the USA
See also:
https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000282eoc
which has this note at the top:
"The integrity team and editors are investigating issues raised >>>>>regarding the quality and messaging of this work. The Princess Máxima >>>>>Centre, which is listed as the affiliation of three of the four >>>>>authors, is also investigating the scientific quality of this study.1 >>>>>The integrity team has contacted the institution regarding their >>>>>investigation.
Readers should also be alerted to misreporting and misunderstanding of >>>>>the work. It has been claimed that the work implies a direct causal >>>>>link between COVID-19 vaccination and mortality. This study does not >>>>>establish any such link. The researchers looked only at trends in >>>>>excess mortality over time, not its causes. The research does not >>>>>support the claim that vaccines are a major contributory factor to >>>>>excess deaths since the start of the pandemic. Vaccines have, in fact, >>>>>been instrumental in reducing the severe illness and death associated >>>>>with COVID-19 infection.""
So you don't think the British Medical Association (which owns the BMJ >>>Group), speaks English? I have quoted directly from the website -
link above. What are you on about now, Tony?
Off topic drivel gone
Bill, I may not have covered your final request
Not what measure did somebody else use.
Anyone can google fudged figures.
And what about the evidence that supports it?
More googling?
Snipping of parts of a thread that a poster cannot understand or >>>>>>>perhaps understands too well can be a bitch, but poor Tony prefers to >>>>>>>delete scientific information that he does not understand. Back in the >>>>>>>thread I said:
"The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains one of >>>>>>>the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect of >>>>>>>Covid on each nation."
I have posted links to those comparisons quite a few times but just >>>>>>>for you BR, here are a few links again:
I'm not interested in your links. Anyone can post numerous links to >>>>>>support every conceivable argument. Even flat Earthers can post links. >>>>>>
You said: "The measurement of "excess mortality" she refers to remains >>>>>>one of the most useful international comparisons of the overall effect >>>>>>of Covid on each nation."
Again, what measure did YOU use to decide that conclusion? Why is it >>>>>>one of the most useful international comparisons?
Bill.
If you want to converse with Bill, THen answer him not me.
Off topic drivel gone.
Every post to nz.general is received by anyone that follows the group
- I was clear as to which post I was responding to.
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