Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered.What a surprise eh?
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here
and now situation.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered.
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here
and now situation.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >> asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >> to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered. >>
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here
and now situation.
What a surprise eh?
Those of us who have questioned the headlonmg rush into electric vehicles have
been ridiculed, abused using sarcasm and worse.
It takes a while for humanity to catch up with reality. A source of "clean" energy is needed and hopefully only a few decades away, some researchers say sooner than that - nuclear fusion is one such safe and efficient possibility but there are others.
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered. >>
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here >>and now situation.
The article gives a world-wide perspective, but in NZ the access to >hydro-generated electricity changes the situation substantially. I am
not at all surprised that on a world-wide basis use of EVs is not
resulting in CO2 emission reductions and this is entirely what was
forecast given that in many countries electricity generation is
sourced almost entirely from fossil-fuels or nuclear.
EVs in NZ are completely practical - they are ideal for short-run
transport such as commuting to work in the same city where you live, >supermarket runs and every other time you need transport for a trip
less than around 20km or so. ICEs require oil lubrication which takes
time to start working when the engine is started - for some engines a
trip of 5km or so will result in the engine running unlubricated for
the entire trip because the oil pump cannot get oil circulating
effectively during the trip. However when oil does start circulating,
the wear-and-tear on unlubricated running can be mitigated.
These are the reasons I own and run my EV. CO2 emissions was
incidental and I recharge weekly, not daily, using a standard
household power outlet.
ICE-powered cars are also needed and I have one predominantly as a 2nd
car but also for use on intercity trips.
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered.
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:The cost of replacing the worn out system was too much for the Council
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered.
Little mentioned is that EV's need to haul their batteries around,
those batteries comprising half the weight of the car. Very
inefficient! Trolleybuses with electric cables overhead was the best
model, although Wellington inexplicably discontinued those in 2017 --
after Labour had campaigned on keeping them, then when elected, did
nothing to keep them.
For cars, need a method to feed electricity to them so that large
batteries are not needed. Electric slotcars? Someone figure this
out.
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered.
Little mentioned is that EV's need to haul their batteries around,
those batteries comprising half the weight of the car. Very
inefficient!
Trolleybuses with electric cables overhead was the best
model, although Wellington inexplicably discontinued those in 2017 --
after Labour had campaigned on keeping them, then when elected, did
nothing to keep them.
For cars, need a method to feed electricity to them so that large
batteries are not needed. Electric slotcars? Someone figure this
out.
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered. >>
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here >>and now situation.
The article gives a world-wide perspective, but in NZ the access to >hydro-generated electricity changes the situation substantially. I am
not at all surprised that on a world-wide basis use of EVs is not
resulting in CO2 emission reductions and this is entirely what was
forecast given that in many countries electricity generation is
sourced almost entirely from fossil-fuels or nuclear.
EVs in NZ are completely practical - they are ideal for short-run
transport such as commuting to work in the same city where you live, >supermarket runs and every other time you need transport for a trip
less than around 20km or so. ICEs require oil lubrication which takes
time to start working when the engine is started - for some engines a
trip of 5km or so will result in the engine running unlubricated for
the entire trip because the oil pump cannot get oil circulating
effectively during the trip. However when oil does start circulating,
the wear-and-tear on unlubricated running can be mitigated.
These are the reasons I own and run my EV. CO2 emissions was
incidental and I recharge weekly, not daily, using a standard
household power outlet.
ICE-powered cars are also needed and I have one predominantly as a 2nd
car but also for use on intercity trips.
On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 09:24:50 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Absolute nonsense. Just more of the rhetoric you cannot avoid using.
wrote:
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>>to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered. >>>
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here >>>and now situation.
The article gives a world-wide perspective, but in NZ the access to >>hydro-generated electricity changes the situation substantially. I am
not at all surprised that on a world-wide basis use of EVs is not
resulting in CO2 emission reductions and this is entirely what was
forecast given that in many countries electricity generation is
sourced almost entirely from fossil-fuels or nuclear.
EVs in NZ are completely practical - they are ideal for short-run
transport such as commuting to work in the same city where you live, >>supermarket runs and every other time you need transport for a trip
less than around 20km or so. ICEs require oil lubrication which takes
time to start working when the engine is started - for some engines a
trip of 5km or so will result in the engine running unlubricated for
the entire trip because the oil pump cannot get oil circulating
effectively during the trip. However when oil does start circulating,
the wear-and-tear on unlubricated running can be mitigated.
These are the reasons I own and run my EV. CO2 emissions was
incidental and I recharge weekly, not daily, using a standard
household power outlet.
ICE-powered cars are also needed and I have one predominantly as a 2nd
car but also for use on intercity trips.
Well said Crash. The article was inadequately (or perhaps selectively)
quoted - it does include:
" "EVs are only as green as the grid they plug into, and government
policies should aim to increase the adoption and integration of
renewable energy like solar and hydro. This can be achieved by setting >ambitious renewable energy targets and providing adequate subsidies
such as tax credits to producers and consumers of renewable energy.”
Investments in smart grids and transmission networks can boost the
efficiency and reliability of renewable energy supply.
“Policies should support community-based renewable energy projects,
which can increase public acceptance of renewable energy
installations."
Further, the researchers say eliminating subsidies for fossil fuels
and implementing carbon pricing mechanisms could also incentivise
renewable energy development."
The reality for New Zealand is that we have a bizarre structure for >electricity generation and distribution, which puts on obligation on
the generating and distribution companies to maximise profit, rather
than minimising costs to consumers. This is done through limiting new >distribution which avoids competition; dividends are based on a return
on capital that reflects an inflated value of assets - with existing >generation structures being valued as high as possible - probably
replacement value. The generating companies also take a large discount
from any generation fed back into the grid - there is little point in
solar panels without a battery to use that power overnight - the
generating companies don't want random generation at off peak even if
that could in theory enable water retention in hydro dams - that may
reduce the need for emergency generation using Huntly.
China is one of the countries that is heavily into manufacture of EV's
- and yes they do rely on fossil fuel for a lot of their energy needs
- but the are also covering a lot of area with new solar cells - they
know that fossil fuels are not the path to future success.
On Thu, 10 Apr 2025 23:38:45 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:In which country is that, clearly no here.
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:The cost of replacing the worn out system was too much for the Council
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>>to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered. >>Little mentioned is that EV's need to haul their batteries around,
those batteries comprising half the weight of the car. Very
inefficient! Trolleybuses with electric cables overhead was the best >>model, although Wellington inexplicably discontinued those in 2017 --
after Labour had campaigned on keeping them, then when elected, did
nothing to keep them.
to afford. I agree that it was a shame - those were the days of
Councils being elected on keeping rates low for businesses . . .
For cars, need a method to feed electricity to them so that large
batteries are not needed. Electric slotcars? Someone figure this
out.
The weight of electric batteries is a drawback of these vehicles -
road user charges should be based on both emissions and weight to make
them fair - but subsidising transport at the expense of everything
else is what the populist right does . . .
On 2025-04-10 20:51:26 +0000, Tony said:That's true. It is relative however.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>> asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>> to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered. >>>
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here >>> and now situation.
What a surprise eh?
Those of us who have questioned the headlonmg rush into electric vehicles >>have
been ridiculed, abused using sarcasm and worse.
It takes a while for humanity to catch up with reality. A source of "clean" >> energy is needed and hopefully only a few decades away, some researchers say >> sooner than that - nuclear fusion is one such safe and efficient possibility >> but there are others.
Even *if* a miraculous truly "clean energy" generation source was
actually invented, the fact remains that electric cars (as well as
every other portable device) require batteries to store that energy,
and batteries themselves are highly polluting to make and dispose of,
as well as being not particularly efficient. They are basically
replacing one form of pollution with another, so it still won't be
"green" nor "clean".
On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 03:12:19 -0000 (UTC), TonyI meant what I wrote. You wrote a nonsense sentence, do you want to try again? >- the emphasis on Mo-ar (sic) roads
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2025 23:38:45 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:In which country is that, clearly no here.
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:The cost of replacing the worn out system was too much for the Council
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>>>>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need
to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered.
Little mentioned is that EV's need to haul their batteries around, >>>>those batteries comprising half the weight of the car. Very >>>>inefficient! Trolleybuses with electric cables overhead was the best >>>>model, although Wellington inexplicably discontinued those in 2017 -- >>>>after Labour had campaigned on keeping them, then when elected, did >>>>nothing to keep them.
to afford. I agree that it was a shame - those were the days of
Councils being elected on keeping rates low for businesses . . .
For cars, need a method to feed electricity to them so that large >>>>batteries are not needed. Electric slotcars? Someone figure this
out.
The weight of electric batteries is a drawback of these vehicles -
road user charges should be based on both emissions and weight to make >>>them fair - but subsidising transport at the expense of everything
else is what the populist right does . . .
I suspect you meant no hearing, Tony
from the Nats is shameful - it took Winston to make sure that railIncorrect, a lie in fact.
carriages will still be able to get across Cook Strait; National is
committed to subsidising the trucking industry at the expense of rail
and coastal shipping.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2025 23:38:45 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:In which country is that, clearly no here.
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:The cost of replacing the worn out system was too much for the Council
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >>>>asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >>>>to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered. >>>Little mentioned is that EV's need to haul their batteries around,
those batteries comprising half the weight of the car. Very
inefficient! Trolleybuses with electric cables overhead was the best >>>model, although Wellington inexplicably discontinued those in 2017 -- >>>after Labour had campaigned on keeping them, then when elected, did >>>nothing to keep them.
to afford. I agree that it was a shame - those were the days of
Councils being elected on keeping rates low for businesses . . .
For cars, need a method to feed electricity to them so that large >>>batteries are not needed. Electric slotcars? Someone figure this
out.
The weight of electric batteries is a drawback of these vehicles -
road user charges should be based on both emissions and weight to make
them fair - but subsidising transport at the expense of everything
else is what the populist right does . . .
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was being >> asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it will need >> to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be coal powered.
Little mentioned is that EV's need to haul their batteries around,
those batteries comprising half the weight of the car. Very
inefficient! Trolleybuses with electric cables overhead was the best
model, although Wellington inexplicably discontinued those in 2017 --
after Labour had campaigned on keeping them, then when elected, did
nothing to keep them.
For cars, need a method to feed electricity to them so that large
batteries are not needed. Electric slotcars? Someone figure this
out.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 09:24:50 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was
being asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it >>>> will need to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be >>>> coal powered.
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here >>>> and now situation.
The article gives a world-wide perspective, but in NZ the access to
hydro-generated electricity changes the situation substantially. I am
not at all surprised that on a world-wide basis use of EVs is not
resulting in CO2 emission reductions and this is entirely what was
forecast given that in many countries electricity generation is
sourced almost entirely from fossil-fuels or nuclear.
EVs in NZ are completely practical - they are ideal for short-run
transport such as commuting to work in the same city where you live,
supermarket runs and every other time you need transport for a trip
less than around 20km or so. ICEs require oil lubrication which takes
time to start working when the engine is started - for some engines a
trip of 5km or so will result in the engine running unlubricated for
the entire trip because the oil pump cannot get oil circulating
effectively during the trip. However when oil does start circulating,
the wear-and-tear on unlubricated running can be mitigated.
These are the reasons I own and run my EV. CO2 emissions was
incidental and I recharge weekly, not daily, using a standard
household power outlet.
ICE-powered cars are also needed and I have one predominantly as a 2nd
car but also for use on intercity trips.
Well said Crash. The article was inadequately (or perhaps selectively)
quoted - it does include:
" "EVs are only as green as the grid they plug into, and government
policies should aim to increase the adoption and integration of
renewable energy like solar and hydro. This can be achieved by setting
ambitious renewable energy targets and providing adequate subsidies
such as tax credits to producers and consumers of renewable energy.”
Investments in smart grids and transmission networks can boost the
efficiency and reliability of renewable energy supply.
“Policies should support community-based renewable energy projects,
which can increase public acceptance of renewable energy
installations."
Further, the researchers say eliminating subsidies for fossil fuels
and implementing carbon pricing mechanisms could also incentivise
renewable energy development."
The reality for New Zealand is that we have a bizarre structure for
electricity generation and distribution, which puts on obligation on
the generating and distribution companies to maximise profit, rather
than minimising costs to consumers. This is done through limiting new
distribution which avoids competition; dividends are based on a return
on capital that reflects an inflated value of assets - with existing
generation structures being valued as high as possible - probably
replacement value. The generating companies also take a large discount
from any generation fed back into the grid - there is little point in
solar panels without a battery to use that power overnight - the
generating companies don't want random generation at off peak even if
that could in theory enable water retention in hydro dams - that may
reduce the need for emergency generation using Huntly.
China is one of the countries that is heavily into manufacture of EV's
- and yes they do rely on fossil fuel for a lot of their energy needs
- but the are also covering a lot of area with new solar cells - they
know that fossil fuels are not the path to future success.
Absolute nonsense. Just more of the rhetoric you cannot avoid using.
As an example olar cells are polluting (do some research for once.)
On 2025-04-11 03:09:52 +0000, Tony said:And even then they kill birds by the thousands. You are absolutely correct.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 09:24:50 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 10 Apr 2025 08:43:46 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360647525/new-study-finds-global-ev-adoption-has-failed-cut-co2
Right from the start of the EV flavour of the month the question was >>>>> being asked by many of us, Where are we going to get the power from, it >>>>> will need to be Green power which is not 24/7 so in fact the EV will be >>>>> coal powered.
To to see Stuff reporting this study. EV's are not practical for the here >>>>> and now situation.
The article gives a world-wide perspective, but in NZ the access to
hydro-generated electricity changes the situation substantially. I am >>>> not at all surprised that on a world-wide basis use of EVs is not
resulting in CO2 emission reductions and this is entirely what was
forecast given that in many countries electricity generation is
sourced almost entirely from fossil-fuels or nuclear.
EVs in NZ are completely practical - they are ideal for short-run
transport such as commuting to work in the same city where you live,
supermarket runs and every other time you need transport for a trip
less than around 20km or so. ICEs require oil lubrication which takes >>>> time to start working when the engine is started - for some engines a
trip of 5km or so will result in the engine running unlubricated for
the entire trip because the oil pump cannot get oil circulating
effectively during the trip. However when oil does start circulating, >>>> the wear-and-tear on unlubricated running can be mitigated.
These are the reasons I own and run my EV. CO2 emissions was
incidental and I recharge weekly, not daily, using a standard
household power outlet.
ICE-powered cars are also needed and I have one predominantly as a 2nd >>>> car but also for use on intercity trips.
Well said Crash. The article was inadequately (or perhaps selectively)
quoted - it does include:
" "EVs are only as green as the grid they plug into, and government
policies should aim to increase the adoption and integration of
renewable energy like solar and hydro. This can be achieved by setting
ambitious renewable energy targets and providing adequate subsidies
such as tax credits to producers and consumers of renewable energy.”
Investments in smart grids and transmission networks can boost the
efficiency and reliability of renewable energy supply.
“Policies should support community-based renewable energy projects,
which can increase public acceptance of renewable energy
installations."
Further, the researchers say eliminating subsidies for fossil fuels
and implementing carbon pricing mechanisms could also incentivise
renewable energy development."
The reality for New Zealand is that we have a bizarre structure for
electricity generation and distribution, which puts on obligation on
the generating and distribution companies to maximise profit, rather
than minimising costs to consumers. This is done through limiting new
distribution which avoids competition; dividends are based on a return
on capital that reflects an inflated value of assets - with existing
generation structures being valued as high as possible - probably
replacement value. The generating companies also take a large discount
from any generation fed back into the grid - there is little point in
solar panels without a battery to use that power overnight - the
generating companies don't want random generation at off peak even if
that could in theory enable water retention in hydro dams - that may
reduce the need for emergency generation using Huntly.
China is one of the countries that is heavily into manufacture of EV's
- and yes they do rely on fossil fuel for a lot of their energy needs
- but the are also covering a lot of area with new solar cells - they
know that fossil fuels are not the path to future success.
Absolute nonsense. Just more of the rhetoric you cannot avoid using.
As an example olar cells are polluting (do some research for once.)
Yep. Solar panels, wind turbines, and wave turbines are all highly
polluting to manufacture and dispose of, but they are also very
inefficient, so you need a massive amount of them to get relatively
little power generated, so they create a huge mess of visual pollution
as well and destroy the environment of that area (unless put on top of >existing buidlings).
On Thu, 10 Apr 2025 23:38:45 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
Little mentioned is that EV's need to haul their batteries around,
those batteries comprising half the weight of the car. Very
inefficient!
Inefficient how? What matters to me is that my EV handles well and
costs much less to run (battery weight included) than my ICE car. The
weight composition is irrelevant.
Those Trolley busses were at end-of-life, as was the power supply >infrastructure after 60 years.
It is beginning to look like hydrogen may well be the fuel of the future.
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