On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three
Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh?
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with the facts, except Seymour.
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
On 2025-04-12 02:47:14 +0000, Gordon said:I agree with you about politicians, some managers do their very best to understand the needs of their people and customers.
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters >>>but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >> or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >> the facts, except Seymour.
Politicans and management never know nor do what the real people want.
It's A Me <its-a-me@mario.com> wrote:
On 2025-04-12 02:47:14 +0000, Gordon said:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour
supporters but excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) >>>> support all three Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of >>>> the principles. No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen >>>> eh? Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people
believe, eh?
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to
whether or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch
with the facts, except Seymour.
Politicans and management never know nor do what the real people want.
I agree with you about politicians, some managers do their very best to understand the needs of their people and customers.
On 2025-04-12 03:15:51 +0000, Tony said:OK, then you and I have had different experiences.
It's A Me <its-a-me@mario.com> wrote:
On 2025-04-12 02:47:14 +0000, Gordon said:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour
supporters but excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) >>>>> support all three Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of >>>>> the principles. No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen >>>>> eh? Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people
believe, eh?
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to
whether or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch >>>> with the facts, except Seymour.
Politicans and management never know nor do what the real people want.
I agree with you about politicians, some managers do their very best to
understand the needs of their people and customers.
Usually, the higher up the management tree they go (with politicians
being in the upper levels, but not the top), the more stupid, more
selfish, and more ignorant the person seems to become. :-(
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three
Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh?
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >the facts, except Seymour.
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >>or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>the facts, except Seymour.
Those of Maori descent don't want any referendum that involves the
Treaty or any other racially-oriented issue, because most of us Kiwis
are not of Maori descent so the result will never favour those of
Maori descent. They call this 'the tyranny of the majority'.
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 12:29:09 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>yes that is fair. The Waitangi Tribunal has not been able to avoid all controversy however - but where there are shared interests such as the
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:59:06 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>>the facts, except Seymour.
Those of Maori descent don't want any referendum that involves the
Treaty or any other racially-oriented issue, because most of us Kiwis
are not of Maori descent so the result will never favour those of
Maori descent. They call this 'the tyranny of the majority'.
Exactly Crash - The Treaty was effectively a Peace Agreement between >>warring parties; it gave rights to both sides; sadly Maori have seen
those rights trampled over, and the Treaty mis-represented
consistently for many years.
Up until the Waitangi Tribunal was established maybe.
Ministers have seen theIncorrect - there is no such acceptance unless you can cite otherwise.
merits of granting compensation for many legitimate grievances; they
have seen this as not only honourable on the part of government but >>consistent with the rule of law, and fairness to all New Zealanders.
See: >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Treaty_of_Waitangi_Negotiations
Of the 7 Treaty Negotiations Ministers, the most prominent and
respected are probably Doug Graham, Michael Cullen, Chris Finlayson
and Andrew Little. but until Christopher Luxon the Prime Ministers
that appointed them were all supportive of the position and of
achieving settlements that are as fair as possible.
It is widely accepted that the settlements represent only around 2% to
3% of the value of land and other rights lost to Maori through the >>mis-interpretation and deliberate unlawful actions of Pakeha in the
past, including actions by past Governments.
In his racist attitudes, and contempt for the sanctity of contract and >>equality under the law, Seymour is following Atlas Network disruptive >>policies similar to those being followed (albeit more erratically) by >>Donald Trump in the USA - unfortunately the National Party do not have
the sense to realise that Seymour is as much a threat to their
re-election as Christopher Luxon.
Completely irrelevant and off-topic. If you need to make such
outrageous assertions it is clear you have no other basis for validity
in opposing the Bill.
Significant by its absence is any quotation of the actual text in the
Bill and your assertions.
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:59:06 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >>>or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>the facts, except Seymour.
Those of Maori descent don't want any referendum that involves the
Treaty or any other racially-oriented issue, because most of us Kiwis
are not of Maori descent so the result will never favour those of
Maori descent. They call this 'the tyranny of the majority'.
Exactly Crash - The Treaty was effectively a Peace Agreement between
warring parties; it gave rights to both sides; sadly Maori have seen
those rights trampled over, and the Treaty mis-represented
consistently for many years.
Ministers have seen the
merits of granting compensation for many legitimate grievances; they
have seen this as not only honourable on the part of government but >consistent with the rule of law, and fairness to all New Zealanders.
See: >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Treaty_of_Waitangi_Negotiations
Of the 7 Treaty Negotiations Ministers, the most prominent and
respected are probably Doug Graham, Michael Cullen, Chris Finlayson
and Andrew Little. but until Christopher Luxon the Prime Ministers
that appointed them were all supportive of the position and of
achieving settlements that are as fair as possible.
It is widely accepted that the settlements represent only around 2% to
3% of the value of land and other rights lost to Maori through the >mis-interpretation and deliberate unlawful actions of Pakeha in the
past, including actions by past Governments.
In his racist attitudes, and contempt for the sanctity of contract and >equality under the law, Seymour is following Atlas Network disruptive >policies similar to those being followed (albeit more erratically) by
Donald Trump in the USA - unfortunately the National Party do not have
the sense to realise that Seymour is as much a threat to their
re-election as Christopher Luxon.
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three
Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh?
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >the facts, except Seymour.
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 21:33:00 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>You cannot sustain that opinion, but please do try.
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 12:29:09 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:yes that is fair. The Waitangi Tribunal has not been able to avoid all >controversy however - but where there are shared interests such as the >Waikato and Wanganui Rivers, solutions have been found that met the
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:59:06 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all >>>>>>three
Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to >>>>>whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch >>>>>with
the facts, except Seymour.
Those of Maori descent don't want any referendum that involves the >>>>Treaty or any other racially-oriented issue, because most of us Kiwis >>>>are not of Maori descent so the result will never favour those of
Maori descent. They call this 'the tyranny of the majority'.
Exactly Crash - The Treaty was effectively a Peace Agreement between >>>warring parties; it gave rights to both sides; sadly Maori have seen >>>those rights trampled over, and the Treaty mis-represented
consistently for many years.
Up until the Waitangi Tribunal was established maybe.
needs of both Government and Maori, to the benefit of all. Some issues
were controversial when first raised - radio frequencies come to
mind), but with goodwill those that been handled well giving
satisfaction to those with differing views.
Ministers have seen theIncorrect - there is no such acceptance unless you can cite otherwise.
merits of granting compensation for many legitimate grievances; they
have seen this as not only honourable on the part of government but >>>consistent with the rule of law, and fairness to all New Zealanders.
See: >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Treaty_of_Waitangi_Negotiations >>>
Of the 7 Treaty Negotiations Ministers, the most prominent and
respected are probably Doug Graham, Michael Cullen, Chris Finlayson
and Andrew Little. but until Christopher Luxon the Prime Ministers
that appointed them were all supportive of the position and of
achieving settlements that are as fair as possible.
It is widely accepted that the settlements represent only around 2% to
3% of the value of land and other rights lost to Maori through the >>>mis-interpretation and deliberate unlawful actions of Pakeha in the
past, including actions by past Governments.
In his racist attitudes, and contempt for the sanctity of contract and >>>equality under the law, Seymour is following Atlas Network disruptive >>>policies similar to those being followed (albeit more erratically) by >>>Donald Trump in the USA - unfortunately the National Party do not have >>>the sense to realise that Seymour is as much a threat to their >>>re-election as Christopher Luxon.
Completely irrelevant and off-topic. If you need to make such
outrageous assertions it is clear you have no other basis for validity
in opposing the Bill.
Significant by its absence is any quotation of the actual text in the
Bill and your assertions.
Just read a few of the submissions on the bill . . . many were
published. It is fair to say that a significant majority of New
Zealanders opposed the bill put forward by Seymour.
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >>>or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned
from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a
page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >>>or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned
from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a
page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >>or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned
from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a
page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which
reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty
Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >>or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned
from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a
page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which
reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty
Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles.
No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether >>>or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned
from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a
page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
--
Crash McBash
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 11:42:08 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Nonsense - the timing is valid, only recently done.
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned >>>from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a >>>page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
Thank you for those references, Crash, and yes you are correct, this
was a genuine poll - one that was carried out at a time that few
people were familiar with the provisions of the Bill or the arguments
that were put forward to the Select Committee. It did not get wide
publicity at that time, which is a shame, as the results may have
misled ACT as to the possibility of their Bill being accepted.
I do stand by my view that the website appears to be an amateurNonsense.
concoction - to not have disclosed the date of the poll is a clear
mistake.
So yes a poll that puts forward one side of an issue without the clear >objections that ACT would have been aware of is a legitimate poll, butWaffle - the original link is still completely valid and your imitation of a 3 year-old spitting the dummy shows just how credible you are.
not one that should have been relied on by anyone with common sense
and a knowledge of those issues. It could be seen as a push poll that
was designed to produce the answers that the client wanted - but even
if that was what the client wanted, I believe a reputable polling >organisation would have refused to draw conclusions from the poll
without at least one balancing question.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:12:09 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:Clearly you regard only those that agree with you as "Open-minded"
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:Thanks for this Crash, I had planned to do more research when I had time. >>The majority of New Zealander's supported the bill and that was obvious to open
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three
Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with
the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned >>>>from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a >>>>page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>>>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to >>>>be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>>>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
minded folk.
There is no damage to anybody in the bill.None that you accept, but the Waitangi Tribunal would disagree - they
have the legal knowledge that you clearly do not have.
All opposition to the bill was greed or politics based, pity that National andOn this issue, National and NZF were part of the majority. A biased
NZF could not support the majority.
poll that only asks about one view of the issue is not reliable -
hence my comments about ACT having been misled.
This issue will be raised again and it must be.
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:Clearly you regard only those that agree with you as "Open-minded"
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:Thanks for this Crash, I had planned to do more research when I had time.
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned >>>from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a >>>page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
The majority of New Zealander's supported the bill and that was obvious to open
minded folk.
There is no damage to anybody in the bill.None that you accept, but the Waitangi Tribunal would disagree - they
All opposition to the bill was greed or politics based, pity that National and >NZF could not support the majority.On this issue, National and NZF were part of the majority. A biased
This issue will be raised again and it must be.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 15:20:55 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>Willy Jackson, that racist hero of yours.
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:12:09 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:Clearly you regard only those that agree with you as "Open-minded"
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:Thanks for this Crash, I had planned to do more research when I had time. >>>The majority of New Zealander's supported the bill and that was obvious to >>>open
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all >>>>>>>three
Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh?
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to >>>>>>whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch >>>>>>with
the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned >>>>>from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a >>>>>page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>>>>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to >>>>>be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>>>>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found >>>>here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia, >>>>the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs >>>>the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
minded folk.
There is no damage to anybody in the bill.None that you accept, but the Waitangi Tribunal would disagree - they
have the legal knowledge that you clearly do not have.
All opposition to the bill was greed or politics based, pity that National >>>andOn this issue, National and NZF were part of the majority. A biased
NZF could not support the majority.
poll that only asks about one view of the issue is not reliable -
hence my comments about ACT having been misled.
This issue will be raised again and it must be.
Worth checking social media sometimes - this from Facebook - Willy
Jackson.
_________________________________________
"After getting thrashed in Parliament with a crushing vote against his
Treaty Principles Bill, Seymour's still whinging!
I am sick of David Seymour saying people never give a reason about why
they were against his race baiting political stunt, well here's 10
David!
1 - It was a race baiting political stunt!
2 - It was a bad faith debate where you had zero interest in learning
the truth nor reflect upon the vast opposition to your very narrow >redefinition of fairness and equality!
3 - It was going to radically alter the way the Government interprets
the Treaty!
4 - You can't radically alter the way the Government interprets the
Treaty without agreement
5 -This was NEVER about special privilege’s or racial preference it
was always about LEGAL rights, legal rights Maori have with the Crown
because they signed a contract with the Crown, a contract you have
taken upon yourself to redefine for everyone!
6 - Maori never ceded sovereignty, so why are you rewriting our agency
and independence without our agreement?
7 - This referendum is not like the End of Life Referendum, that was
an individual right, what you are proposing with the Treaty Principles >Referendum are group rights you don't have the right to dictate to via
a referendum!
8 - The Tyranny of the Majority is no way to decide the rights of the >indigenous people!
9 - There are two versions of the Treaty, most Maori signed the Maori >version, your Referendum doesn't acknowledge this.
10 - We are signed to UN declarations that state the Treaty in the
indigenous language takes precedence.
Over 300 000 participated in this submission process, the largest ever
in NZ history, it saw the largest Hikoi in history and 90% of those
who did submit were against it, and yet still David claims he has no
idea why anyone is against it.
In fact Seymour has claimed the Maori Chiefs who signed the Treaty
would support him, Nelson Mandela would support him and even Jesus
Christ would support him.
His arrogance is beyond belief and finally on top of the 10 reasons
that I have provided the main reason why David Seymour is a liar over
his Treaty Principles Bill is because he says he does not want to
change anything about the treaty but the truth is he wants to change
the Treaty , constitution , history and future of this country it’s as
simple as that, that surely makes him a liar doesn’t it?" >_____________________________________________________
I would perhaps have used slightly different words, but there is
nothing there that I disagree with.
So there you are Tony - do you have any rational argument (or even
better facts) to refute any of the points Willy Jackson makes?
The bottom line is that ACT (and by implication Tony) do not believe
that a contract needs to be complied with . . . nobody should trust
anyone who has that attitude . . .
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:12:09 -0000 (UTC), TonyOff tpic abuse gone.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:Thanks for this Crash, I had planned to do more research when I had time. >>The majority of New Zealander's supported the bill and that was obvious to >>open
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour >>>>>>supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all >>>>>>three
Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to >>>>>whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch >>>>>with
the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned >>>>from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a >>>>page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>>>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to >>>>be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>>>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
minded folk.
Off topic.There is no damage to anybody in the bill.
Absolute nonsense - just your fantasy. The poll was not biased and you cannot show otherwise.All opposition to the bill was greed or politics based, pity that National >>andOn this issue, National and NZF were part of the majority. A biased
NZF could not support the majority.
poll that only asks about one view of the issue is not reliable -
hence my comments about ACT having been misled.
This issue will be raised again and it must be.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 11:42:08 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 22:17:39 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On 12 Apr 2025 02:47:14 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-04-11, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
The majority of supporters of all major parties including Labour supporters but
excluding the greens (no chance of integrity from them) support all three >>>>> Treaty Principles. But even the greens support one of the principles. >>>>> No real surprise but maybe the politicians will listen eh?
Even less likely, maybe the MSM will report what the people believe, eh? >>>>> https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
This polling shows that New Zealand needs to have a referendum as to whether
or not they agree with the principles.
It is an interesting situation when the media and MPs are out of touch with >>>>the facts, except Seymour.
Look at
https://www.curia.co.nz/
and you will see that there has been no such recent poll commissioned >>>from Curia.
I believe it is total bullshit, made up by idiots probably drafting a >>>page just to demonstrate a possible format that could be used, which >>>reflects a wish list for the website owners that was never intended to
be posted as true.
It probably demonstrates the shallow talent pool of the current Dirty >>>Tricks crop of right wing wannabees
You are wrong Rich. The Poll reported by thefacts.nz can be found
here:
https://thefacts.nz/treaty-principles-poll-3/
and that lists this data source:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/actnz/mailings/14478/attachments/original/Treaty_Poll_ACT_Dec24.pdf?1734061223
and that is referenced by Curia here:
https://www.curia.co.nz/2024/12/curia-poll-on-treaty-principles-bill/
So this is a genuine, acknowledged Curia poll data..
While the graphic produced on thefacts.nz website is not from Curia,
the raw data is. Feel free to attack the accuracy of the graphic vs
the data if you can, but based your previous efforts in this thread
you are not likely to be able to do so.
Thank you for those references, Crash, and yes you are correct, this
was a genuine poll - one that was carried out at a time that few
people were familiar with the provisions of the Bill or the arguments
that were put forward to the Select Committee. It did not get wide
publicity at that time, which is a shame, as the results may have
misled ACT as to the possibility of their Bill being accepted.
I do stand by my view that the website appears to be an amateur
concoction - to not have disclosed the date of the poll is a clear
mistake.
So yes a poll that puts forward one side of an issue without the clear >objections that ACT would have been aware of is a legitimate poll, but
not one that should have been relied on by anyone with common sense
and a knowledge of those issues. It could be seen as a push poll that
was designed to produce the answers that the client wanted - but even
if that was what the client wanted, I believe a reputable polling >organisation would have refused to draw conclusions from the poll
without at least one balancing question.
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