This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She
should be dismissed.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that theyAgain that article is behind a paywall.
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She
should be dismissed.
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>No it isn't.
wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
Vance hasNo it is not.
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>should be dismissed.
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
Vance has
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>should be dismissed.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some sites give so many free clicks in a particular period - I
On Mon, 12 May 2025 05:14:49 -0000 (UTC), TonyWell you are looking at a different URL than the one posted. I just checked and
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:After the first three lines the rest was covered by a notice that
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:No it isn't.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate >>>>more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a >>>>>c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>>earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
said: "Subscribe now to unlock this article and enjoy unlimited access
to The Post" - all I could see was :
it is not locked at all.
"OPINION: Three decades apart, two female ministers of finance wieldI didn't object to anything, what is your problem?
the same ideological scalpel, and again, its women who bleed.
Ruth Richardson cut benefits to the bone, told single mothers to pull
on bootstraps that were frayed thin, and called it reform."
That does appear a quite accurate and civil statement of fact -
perhaps the bit you object to was deliberately hidden.
It is not behind a paywall.
Same notice about Subscribe now as above - for this one all I couldVance hasNo it is not.
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
see was : "OPINION: Having the C-word directed at me by a journalist
in a mainstream publication wasn't on my bingo-list for Mother's Day
2025. Nor was being accused of "girl-math".
But there you have it, that's what was thrown at me and my female >>colleagues in a recent newspaper column as hopelessly devoid of facts
as it was heavy on sexist slurs."
Now Richardson may have preferred not to have her decisions referred
to as "Cuts", but that is what she became known for - and that is how
most people see Willis as doing with not increasing wages and benefits
by inflation while she gives a return on investment to wealthy donors.
. .
But of course the article may not be about that at all - it is after
all behind a paywall for a reason . . .
I can't help you, obviously you have some issue with those sites but neither >are paywalled and I do not subscribe to any paywalled site. never have.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>should be dismissed.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Your stupidity defines you, Tony:
On Mon, 12 May 2025 08:12:07 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is nonsense. You are simply incompetent
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some sites give so many free clicks in a particular period - I
On Mon, 12 May 2025 05:14:49 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Well you are looking at a different URL than the one posted. I just checked >>>and
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:After the first three lines the rest was covered by a notice that
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:No it isn't.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate >>>>>>more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a >>>>>>>c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>>>the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>>>>earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
said: "Subscribe now to unlock this article and enjoy unlimited access >>>>to The Post" - all I could see was :
it is not locked at all.
obviously read more than you do, hence come up against the limit more >>frequently.
"OPINION: Three decades apart, two female ministers of finance wield >>>>the same ideological scalpel, and again, its women who bleed.I didn't object to anything, what is your problem?
Ruth Richardson cut benefits to the bone, told single mothers to pull >>>>on bootstraps that were frayed thin, and called it reform."
That does appear a quite accurate and civil statement of fact -
perhaps the bit you object to was deliberately hidden.
It is not behind a paywall.
Same notice about Subscribe now as above - for this one all I couldVance hasNo it is not.
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>>>have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
see was : "OPINION: Having the C-word directed at me by a journalist
in a mainstream publication wasn't on my bingo-list for Mother's Day >>>>2025. Nor was being accused of "girl-math".
But there you have it, that's what was thrown at me and my female >>>>colleagues in a recent newspaper column as hopelessly devoid of facts >>>>as it was heavy on sexist slurs."
Now Richardson may have preferred not to have her decisions referred
to as "Cuts", but that is what she became known for - and that is how >>>>most people see Willis as doing with not increasing wages and benefits >>>>by inflation while she gives a return on investment to wealthy donors. >>>>. .
But of course the article may not be about that at all - it is after >>>>all behind a paywall for a reason . . .
I can't help you, obviously you have some issue with those sites but neither >>>are paywalled and I do not subscribe to any paywalled site. never have. >>>>>>
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>>>should be dismissed.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as youÂ’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She
should be dismissed.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if the >view is coming from the "Far right".
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom >comes responsibility.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous Governments >time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to putting its >own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything Labour >got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; social >workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims and some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. It had >departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the same >thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay equity >is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some female-dominated >workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to sex-based >discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. This >has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill.
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why the >Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was given >some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She
should be dismissed.
On Mon, 12 May 2025 20:10:18 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs I wrote. you are incompetent.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Your stupidity defines you, Tony:
On Mon, 12 May 2025 08:12:07 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is nonsense. You are simply incompetent
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some sites give so many free clicks in a particular period - I
On Mon, 12 May 2025 05:14:49 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Well you are looking at a different URL than the one posted. I just checked >>>>and
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:After the first three lines the rest was covered by a notice that >>>>>said: "Subscribe now to unlock this article and enjoy unlimited access >>>>>to The Post" - all I could see was :
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:No it isn't.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate >>>>>>>more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a >>>>>>>>c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>>>>the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>>>>>earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
it is not locked at all.
obviously read more than you do, hence come up against the limit more >>>frequently.
https://www.thepost.co.nz/subscribe
"OPINION: Three decades apart, two female ministers of finance wield >>>>>the same ideological scalpel, and again, its women who bleed.I didn't object to anything, what is your problem?
Ruth Richardson cut benefits to the bone, told single mothers to pull >>>>>on bootstraps that were frayed thin, and called it reform."
That does appear a quite accurate and civil statement of fact - >>>>>perhaps the bit you object to was deliberately hidden.
It is not behind a paywall.
Same notice about Subscribe now as above - for this one all I could >>>>>see was : "OPINION: Having the C-word directed at me by a journalist >>>>>in a mainstream publication wasn't on my bingo-list for Mother's Day >>>>>2025. Nor was being accused of "girl-math".Vance hasNo it is not.
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>>>>have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
But there you have it, that's what was thrown at me and my female >>>>>colleagues in a recent newspaper column as hopelessly devoid of facts >>>>>as it was heavy on sexist slurs."
Now Richardson may have preferred not to have her decisions referred >>>>>to as "Cuts", but that is what she became known for - and that is how >>>>>most people see Willis as doing with not increasing wages and benefits >>>>>by inflation while she gives a return on investment to wealthy donors. >>>>>. .
But of course the article may not be about that at all - it is after >>>>>all behind a paywall for a reason . . .
I can't help you, obviously you have some issue with those sites but >>>>neither
are paywalled and I do not subscribe to any paywalled site. never have. >>>>>>>
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>>>>should be dismissed.
On 12 May 2025 23:05:54 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Except there is no far right in pur political sphere.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if the >>view is coming from the "Far right".
And vice-versa
- but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent TheOn;y by you which indicates nothing of value.
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National
than to Labour
Idiotic to write that without reading the article which is not behind a paywall.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom >>comes responsibility.
that, but from the quotes and knowledge we have about the planning for
the changes, the article does appear to be reasonable.
See for example this: >https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360682026/when-government-started-work-limit-pay-equity-claims-and-why-public-wasnt-informedNonsense.
This makes it clear that the motivation for the change in legislation
was to avoid pay increases that were otherwise justified, and to rush
it through without consultation.
ANd still is.One of the pay equity claims was settled shortly before this action of >government - I do not know which one, but apparently it took a long
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous Governments >>time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to putting its >>own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything >>Labour
got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >>unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; social >>workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being >>compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims and >>some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >>multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. It >>had
departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the same >>thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay equity >>is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some female-dominated >>workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to sex-based >>discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. This >>has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill.
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why the >>Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was given >>some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place.
time to get agreement on the facts which should be relied on and the >comparisons to be used - all parties were able to have input to those >decisions, which is as it should be.
The process that has been used for pay for members of parliament is aNo that is not correct. There is no change to equal pay.
similar system - it relied on data from overseas, but also commercial
surveys that compare role requirements between comparable position -
see >https://www.remauthority.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/review-of-mps-salaries-and-allowances-2023-24.pdf
So for teachers, nurses, hospice and care workers, which are all areas
where the government is having difficulty recruiting staff, they have
decided that problems with the budget are sufficient to recant on
their own support for Equal Pay back in 2020. See: >https://mountaintui.substack.com/p/nicola-willis-calls-pay-equity-a
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She
should be dismissed.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 12 May 2025 23:05:54 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Except there is no far right in pur political sphere.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>> earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if the >>>view is coming from the "Far right".
And vice-versa
- but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent TheOn;y by you which indicates nothing of value.
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National
than to Labour
Idiotic to write that without reading the article which is not behind a paywall.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom >>>comes responsibility.
that, but from the quotes and knowledge we have about the planning for
the changes, the article does appear to be reasonable.
See for example this: >>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360682026/when-government-started-work-limit-pay-equity-claims-and-why-public-wasnt-informedNonsense.
This makes it clear that the motivation for the change in legislation
was to avoid pay increases that were otherwise justified, and to rush
it through without consultation.
ANd still is.One of the pay equity claims was settled shortly before this action of >>government - I do not know which one, but apparently it took a long
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous Governments >>>time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to putting its >>>own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything >>>Labour
got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >>>unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; social >>>workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being >>>compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims and >>>some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >>>multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. It >>>had
departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the same >>>thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay equity
is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some female-dominated >>>workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to sex-based >>>discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. This >>>has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill.
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why the >>>Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was given >>>some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place.
time to get agreement on the facts which should be relied on and the >>comparisons to be used - all parties were able to have input to those >>decisions, which is as it should be.
No that is not correct. There is no change to equal pay.
The process that has been used for pay for members of parliament is a >>similar system - it relied on data from overseas, but also commercial >>surveys that compare role requirements between comparable position -
see >>https://www.remauthority.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/review-of-mps-salaries-and-allowances-2023-24.pdf
So for teachers, nurses, hospice and care workers, which are all areas >>where the government is having difficulty recruiting staff, they have >>decided that problems with the budget are sufficient to recant on
their own support for Equal Pay back in 2020. See: >>https://mountaintui.substack.com/p/nicola-willis-calls-pay-equity-a
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She
should be dismissed.
On Tue, 13 May 2025 02:26:28 -0000 (UTC), TonyI referred to equal pay, do try to keep on topic.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 12 May 2025 23:05:54 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Except there is no far right in pur political sphere.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>> the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>> earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if the >>>>view is coming from the "Far right".
And vice-versa
- but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent TheOn;y by you which indicates nothing of value.
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National
than to Labour
Idiotic to write that without reading the article which is not behind a >>paywall.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom >>>>comes responsibility.
that, but from the quotes and knowledge we have about the planning for >>>the changes, the article does appear to be reasonable.
See for example this: >>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360682026/when-government-started-work-limit-pay-equity-claims-and-why-public-wasnt-informedNonsense.
This makes it clear that the motivation for the change in legislation
was to avoid pay increases that were otherwise justified, and to rush
it through without consultation.
ANd still is.One of the pay equity claims was settled shortly before this action of >>>government - I do not know which one, but apparently it took a long
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous Governments >>>>time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to putting >>>>its
own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything >>>>Labour
got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >>>>unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; >>>>social
workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being >>>>compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims and >>>>some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >>>>multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. It >>>>had
departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the same >>>>thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay >>>>equity
is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some female-dominated >>>>workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to >>>>sex-based
discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. This >>>>has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill.
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why the >>>>Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was given
some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place.
time to get agreement on the facts which should be relied on and the >>>comparisons to be used - all parties were able to have input to those >>>decisions, which is as it should be.
No that is not correct. There is no change to equal pay.
The process that has been used for pay for members of parliament is a >>>similar system - it relied on data from overseas, but also commercial >>>surveys that compare role requirements between comparable position -
see >>>https://www.remauthority.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/review-of-mps-salaries-and-allowances-2023-24.pdf
So for teachers, nurses, hospice and care workers, which are all areas >>>where the government is having difficulty recruiting staff, they have >>>decided that problems with the budget are sufficient to recant on
their own support for Equal Pay back in 2020. See: >>>https://mountaintui.substack.com/p/nicola-willis-calls-pay-equity-a
There is a change in law that has gone through which stopped pay talks
- Van Velden claims it will save the government billions of dollars in
the next 2 or three years, and Seymour claims that it has saved this
years budget - are you saying they are wrong, Tony?
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>> should be dismissed.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There were equal pay settlements close to being agreed that would have
On Tue, 13 May 2025 02:26:28 -0000 (UTC), TonyI referred to equal pay, do try to keep on topic.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 12 May 2025 23:05:54 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Except there is no far right in pur political sphere.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a >>>>>> c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>> the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>>> earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if the
view is coming from the "Far right".
And vice-versa
- but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent TheOn;y by you which indicates nothing of value.
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National
than to Labour
Idiotic to write that without reading the article which is not behind a >>>paywall.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom >>>>>comes responsibility.
that, but from the quotes and knowledge we have about the planning for >>>>the changes, the article does appear to be reasonable.
See for example this: >>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360682026/when-government-started-work-limit-pay-equity-claims-and-why-public-wasnt-informedNonsense.
This makes it clear that the motivation for the change in legislation >>>>was to avoid pay increases that were otherwise justified, and to rush >>>>it through without consultation.
ANd still is.One of the pay equity claims was settled shortly before this action of >>>>government - I do not know which one, but apparently it took a long >>>>time to get agreement on the facts which should be relied on and the >>>>comparisons to be used - all parties were able to have input to those >>>>decisions, which is as it should be.
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>> have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous Governments >>>>>time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to putting >>>>>its
own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything >>>>>Labour
got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >>>>>unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; >>>>>social
workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being >>>>>compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims and
some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >>>>>multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. It >>>>>had
departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the same >>>>>thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay >>>>>equity
is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some female-dominated
workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to >>>>>sex-based
discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. This
has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill.
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why the >>>>>Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was given
some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place.
No that is not correct. There is no change to equal pay.
The process that has been used for pay for members of parliament is a >>>>similar system - it relied on data from overseas, but also commercial >>>>surveys that compare role requirements between comparable position - >>>>see >>>>https://www.remauthority.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/review-of-mps-salaries-and-allowances-2023-24.pdf
So for teachers, nurses, hospice and care workers, which are all areas >>>>where the government is having difficulty recruiting staff, they have >>>>decided that problems with the budget are sufficient to recant on
their own support for Equal Pay back in 2020. See: >>>>https://mountaintui.substack.com/p/nicola-willis-calls-pay-equity-a
There is a change in law that has gone through which stopped pay talks
- Van Velden claims it will save the government billions of dollars in
the next 2 or three years, and Seymour claims that it has saved this
years budget - are you saying they are wrong, Tony?
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>> should be dismissed.
And vice-versa - but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent The
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National
than to Labour
On Tue, 13 May 2025 04:27:27 -0000 (UTC), TonyThey can still be claimed, are you denying that fact?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There were equal pay settlements close to being agreed that would have
On Tue, 13 May 2025 02:26:28 -0000 (UTC), TonyI referred to equal pay, do try to keep on topic.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 12 May 2025 23:05:54 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Except there is no far right in pur political sphere.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a >>>>>>> c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>>> the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>>>> earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if >>>>>>the
view is coming from the "Far right".
And vice-versa
- but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent TheOn;y by you which indicates nothing of value.
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National >>>>>than to Labour
Idiotic to write that without reading the article which is not behind a >>>>paywall.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess >>>>>that, but from the quotes and knowledge we have about the planning for >>>>>the changes, the article does appear to be reasonable.
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom >>>>>>comes responsibility.
See for example this: >>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360682026/when-government-started-work-limit-pay-equity-claims-and-why-public-wasnt-informedNonsense.
This makes it clear that the motivation for the change in legislation >>>>>was to avoid pay increases that were otherwise justified, and to rush >>>>>it through without consultation.
ANd still is.One of the pay equity claims was settled shortly before this action of >>>>>government - I do not know which one, but apparently it took a long >>>>>time to get agreement on the facts which should be relied on and the >>>>>comparisons to be used - all parties were able to have input to those >>>>>decisions, which is as it should be.
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>>> have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous Governments
time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to putting >>>>>>its
own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything >>>>>>Labour
got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >>>>>>unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; >>>>>>social
workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being >>>>>>compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims >>>>>>and
some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >>>>>>multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. >>>>>>It
had
departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the same >>>>>>thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay >>>>>>equity
is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some >>>>>>female-dominated
workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to >>>>>>sex-based
discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. >>>>>>This
has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill.
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why the >>>>>>Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was >>>>>>given
some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place. >>>>>>
No that is not correct. There is no change to equal pay.
The process that has been used for pay for members of parliament is a >>>>>similar system - it relied on data from overseas, but also commercial >>>>>surveys that compare role requirements between comparable position - >>>>>see >>>>>https://www.remauthority.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/review-of-mps-salaries-and-allowances-2023-24.pdf
So for teachers, nurses, hospice and care workers, which are all areas >>>>>where the government is having difficulty recruiting staff, they have >>>>>decided that problems with the budget are sufficient to recant on >>>>>their own support for Equal Pay back in 2020. See: >>>>>https://mountaintui.substack.com/p/nicola-willis-calls-pay-equity-a
There is a change in law that has gone through which stopped pay talks
- Van Velden claims it will save the government billions of dollars in >>>the next 2 or three years, and Seymour claims that it has saved this >>>years budget - are you saying they are wrong, Tony?
given pay rises - the legislation put through with no notice has
stopped that happening. Are you denying those facts, Tony?
The ACT party claim that is worth a couple of billion dollars inI said nothing about Seymour, what is your problem, booze, drugs or something permanent?
government savings - are you saying that Seymour is lying?
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>>> should be dismissed.
On Mon, 12 May 2025 08:12:07 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some sites give so many free clicks in a particular period - I
On Mon, 12 May 2025 05:14:49 -0000 (UTC), TonyWell you are looking at a different URL than the one posted. I just checked >>and
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:After the first three lines the rest was covered by a notice that
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:No it isn't.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate >>>>>more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a >>>>>>c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>>the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>>>earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
said: "Subscribe now to unlock this article and enjoy unlimited access
to The Post" - all I could see was :
it is not locked at all.
obviously read more than you do, hence come up against the limit more >frequently.
"OPINION: Three decades apart, two female ministers of finance wieldI didn't object to anything, what is your problem?
the same ideological scalpel, and again, its women who bleed.
Ruth Richardson cut benefits to the bone, told single mothers to pull
on bootstraps that were frayed thin, and called it reform."
That does appear a quite accurate and civil statement of fact -
perhaps the bit you object to was deliberately hidden.
It is not behind a paywall.
Same notice about Subscribe now as above - for this one all I couldVance hasNo it is not.
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>>have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
see was : "OPINION: Having the C-word directed at me by a journalist
in a mainstream publication wasn't on my bingo-list for Mother's Day >>>2025. Nor was being accused of "girl-math".
But there you have it, that's what was thrown at me and my female >>>colleagues in a recent newspaper column as hopelessly devoid of facts
as it was heavy on sexist slurs."
Now Richardson may have preferred not to have her decisions referred
to as "Cuts", but that is what she became known for - and that is how >>>most people see Willis as doing with not increasing wages and benefits
by inflation while she gives a return on investment to wealthy donors.
. .
But of course the article may not be about that at all - it is after
all behind a paywall for a reason . . .
I can't help you, obviously you have some issue with those sites but neither >>are paywalled and I do not subscribe to any paywalled site. never have.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>>should be dismissed.
On Mon, 12 May 2025 05:14:49 -0000 (UTC), TonyWell you are looking at a different URL than the one posted. I just checked and it is not locked at all.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:After the first three lines the rest was covered by a notice that
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:No it isn't.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
said: "Subscribe now to unlock this article and enjoy unlimited access
to The Post" - all I could see was :
"OPINION: Three decades apart, two female ministers of finance wieldI didn't object to anything, what is your problem?
the same ideological scalpel, and again, its women who bleed.
Ruth Richardson cut benefits to the bone, told single mothers to pull
on bootstraps that were frayed thin, and called it reform."
That does appear a quite accurate and civil statement of fact -
perhaps the bit you object to was deliberately hidden.
It is not behind a paywall.Same notice about Subscribe now as above - for this one all I couldVance hasNo it is not.
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
see was : "OPINION: Having the C-word directed at me by a journalist
in a mainstream publication wasn't on my bingo-list for Mother's Day
2025. Nor was being accused of "girl-math".
But there you have it, that's what was thrown at me and my female
colleagues in a recent newspaper column as hopelessly devoid of facts
as it was heavy on sexist slurs."
Now Richardson may have preferred not to have her decisions referred
to as "Cuts", but that is what she became known for - and that is how
most people see Willis as doing with not increasing wages and benefits
by inflation while she gives a return on investment to wealthy donors.
. .
But of course the article may not be about that at all - it is after
all behind a paywall for a reason . . .
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>should be dismissed.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:After the first three lines the rest was covered by a notice that
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:No it isn't.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):Not clear how those comments relate to Willis - they seem to relate
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
more to a male; but the article was behind a paywall.
Same notice about Subscribe now as above - for this one all I couldVance hasNo it is not.
previously been fairly consistently a National Party supporter.
Again that article is behind a paywall.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>should be dismissed.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Of course they can, but it is now clear that there will be no parity
On Tue, 13 May 2025 04:27:27 -0000 (UTC), TonyThey can still be claimed, are you denying that fact?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There were equal pay settlements close to being agreed that would have >>given pay rises - the legislation put through with no notice has
On Tue, 13 May 2025 02:26:28 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I referred to equal pay, do try to keep on topic.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 12 May 2025 23:05:54 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Except there is no far right in pur political sphere.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a >>>>>>>> c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>>>> the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>>>>>> earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if >>>>>>>the
view is coming from the "Far right".
And vice-versa
- but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent TheOn;y by you which indicates nothing of value.
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National >>>>>>than to Labour
Idiotic to write that without reading the article which is not behind a >>>>>paywall.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess >>>>>>that, but from the quotes and knowledge we have about the planning for >>>>>>the changes, the article does appear to be reasonable.
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom >>>>>>>comes responsibility.
See for example this: >>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360682026/when-government-started-work-limit-pay-equity-claims-and-why-public-wasnt-informedNonsense.
This makes it clear that the motivation for the change in legislation >>>>>>was to avoid pay increases that were otherwise justified, and to rush >>>>>>it through without consultation.
ANd still is.One of the pay equity claims was settled shortly before this action of >>>>>>government - I do not know which one, but apparently it took a long >>>>>>time to get agreement on the facts which should be relied on and the >>>>>>comparisons to be used - all parties were able to have input to those >>>>>>decisions, which is as it should be.
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>>>> have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous Governments
time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to putting >>>>>>>its
own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything >>>>>>>Labour
got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >>>>>>>unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; >>>>>>>social
workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being >>>>>>>compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims >>>>>>>and
some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >>>>>>>multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. >>>>>>>It
had
departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the same
thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay >>>>>>>equity
is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some >>>>>>>female-dominated
workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to >>>>>>>sex-based
discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. >>>>>>>This
has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill.
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why the
Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was >>>>>>>given
some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place. >>>>>>>
The process that has been used for pay for members of parliament is a >>>>>>similar system - it relied on data from overseas, but also commercial >>>>>>surveys that compare role requirements between comparable position - >>>>>>see >>>>>>https://www.remauthority.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/review-of-mps-salaries-and-allowances-2023-24.pdf
So for teachers, nurses, hospice and care workers, which are all areas >>>>>>where the government is having difficulty recruiting staff, they have >>>>>>decided that problems with the budget are sufficient to recant on >>>>>>their own support for Equal Pay back in 2020. See: >>>>>>https://mountaintui.substack.com/p/nicola-willis-calls-pay-equity-a >>>>>No that is not correct. There is no change to equal pay.
There is a change in law that has gone through which stopped pay talks >>>>- Van Velden claims it will save the government billions of dollars in >>>>the next 2 or three years, and Seymour claims that it has saved this >>>>years budget - are you saying they are wrong, Tony?
stopped that happening. Are you denying those facts, Tony?
Labour was always keen on no-notice legislation eh?
I did say something about Seymour that is relevant to the discussion.I said nothing about Seymour, what is your problem, booze, drugs or something >permanent?
The ACT party claim that is worth a couple of billion dollars in
government savings - are you saying that Seymour is lying?
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>>>> should be dismissed.
On Tue, 13 May 2025 07:06:04 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, the previous regime allowed claims that were ludicrous. Comparing train drivers with flight attendants or similar. It was wasting money and paying people money they did not deserve. It had to go and has.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Of course they can, but it is now clear that there will be no parity
On Tue, 13 May 2025 04:27:27 -0000 (UTC), TonyThey can still be claimed, are you denying that fact?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There were equal pay settlements close to being agreed that would have >>>given pay rises - the legislation put through with no notice has
On Tue, 13 May 2025 02:26:28 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I referred to equal pay, do try to keep on topic.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 12 May 2025 23:05:54 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Except there is no far right in pur political sphere.
On 2025-05-12, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you?re prepared to be a >>>>>>>>> c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe >>>>>>>>> the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
That is unfortunately a sign of the times. The Left go on the attack if >>>>>>>>the
view is coming from the "Far right".
And vice-versa
- but in this case Andrea Vance (and to an extent TheOn;y by you which indicates nothing of value.
Post) are generally regarded as being more sympathetic to National >>>>>>>than to Labour
Idiotic to write that without reading the article which is not behind a >>>>>>paywall.The article is behind a paywall so I have not been able to assess >>>>>>>that, but from the quotes and knowledge we have about the planning for >>>>>>>the changes, the article does appear to be reasonable.
I guess it is also a case of free speech, and an example of with freedom
comes responsibility.
See for example this: >>>>>>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360682026/when-government-started-work-limit-pay-equity-claims-and-why-public-wasnt-informedNonsense.
This makes it clear that the motivation for the change in legislation >>>>>>>was to avoid pay increases that were otherwise justified, and to rush >>>>>>>it through without consultation.
ANd still is.One of the pay equity claims was settled shortly before this action of >>>>>>>government - I do not know which one, but apparently it took a long >>>>>>>time to get agreement on the facts which should be relied on and the >>>>>>>comparisons to be used - all parties were able to have input to those >>>>>>>decisions, which is as it should be.
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they >>>>>>>>> have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
It also explained what this was about. Correcting the previous >>>>>>>>Governments
time bomb
"In 2020, a full three years later, Labour finally got around to >>>>>>>>putting
its
own, very loose, regime into law. Unfortunately, like almost everything >>>>>>>>Labour
got its hands on, the system got way out of whack and became completely >>>>>>>>unaffordable; admin workers were being compared with civil engineers; >>>>>>>>social
workers were being compared with detectives; and librarians were being >>>>>>>>compared
with fisheries officers. Multiple employers were being joined to claims >>>>>>>>and
some
had dozens of very different jobs in scope."
"What started as a pay equity regime had become a Trojan Horse for a >>>>>>>>multi-billion dollar grievance industry driven by public sector unions. >>>>>>>>It
had
departed a very long way from issues of sex-discrimination."
Now there are the words, equal pay, and pay equity. They are not the >>>>>>>>same
thing
"Unlike equal pay which compares men and women doing the same job, pay >>>>>>>>equity
is about recognising and correcting for the fact that some >>>>>>>>female-dominated
workforces have been historically underpaid and undervalued due to >>>>>>>>sex-based
discrimination. Our Government supports that principle."
I would argue that this has caused some confusion in the publics mind. >>>>>>>>This
has been helped a great deal by the urgency passing of the Bill. >>>>>>>>
The Government earnt a total fail in not explaining to the people why >>>>>>>>the
Bill, including the urgency, was required. If Nicola's explanation was >>>>>>>>given
some time ago the public discussion/reaction could have taken place. >>>>>>>>
The process that has been used for pay for members of parliament is a >>>>>>>similar system - it relied on data from overseas, but also commercial >>>>>>>surveys that compare role requirements between comparable position - >>>>>>>see >>>>>>>https://www.remauthority.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/review-of-mps-salaries-and-allowances-2023-24.pdf
So for teachers, nurses, hospice and care workers, which are all areas >>>>>>>where the government is having difficulty recruiting staff, they have >>>>>>>decided that problems with the budget are sufficient to recant on >>>>>>>their own support for Equal Pay back in 2020. See: >>>>>>>https://mountaintui.substack.com/p/nicola-willis-calls-pay-equity-a >>>>>>No that is not correct. There is no change to equal pay.
There is a change in law that has gone through which stopped pay talks >>>>>- Van Velden claims it will save the government billions of dollars in >>>>>the next 2 or three years, and Seymour claims that it has saved this >>>>>years budget - are you saying they are wrong, Tony?
stopped that happening. Are you denying those facts, Tony?
Labour was always keen on no-notice legislation eh?
claims settled before the next election - Act1stNat have successfully
stopped fair increases for some of our relatively low paid workers to
be delays for about two years, and possibly longer.
Except that I did not say that therefore you are the stupid one here - as usual.I did say something about Seymour that is relevant to the discussion.I said nothing about Seymour, what is your problem, booze, drugs or something >>permanent?
The ACT party claim that is worth a couple of billion dollars in >>>government savings - are you saying that Seymour is lying?
I cannot help your getting confused by people pointing out different
aspects of an issue, and for you to pretend that putting off increases
in earnings will not be felt by those workers affected is typical
unthinking stupidity
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>>>>>>> should be dismissed.
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She
should be dismissed.
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>What a load of rubbish - here we have the "defenders of Free Speech"
wrote:
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to
earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>should be dismissed.
There has since my OP been considerable re-action that is appropriate
to the seriousness of events.
Andrea Vance, and Stuff as publisher, have suffered the reputation
loss they deserve. I believe this incident will serve as an example
of political discourse that has gone to far into viciousness and
offense.
The way forward remains for both Vance and Stuff to retract and
apologise but it looks like this will not happen. Accordingly I will
rarely bother to read Vance's articles and everything from Stuff is of
low trustworthiness.
On Wed, 14 May 2025 20:53:47 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:What a load of rubbish - here we have the "defenders of Free Speech"
This is a new low for the MSM and Stuff (not pay walled):
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360681822/girl-math-budget-will-cut-deep-especially-women
"Turns out you can have it all. So long as you’re prepared to be a
c... to the women who birth your kids, school your offspring and wipe
the arse of your elderly parents while you stand on their shoulders to >>>earn your six-figure, taxpayer-funded pay packet."
What followed was a picture of Nicola Willis.
Vance's comments are way beyond appalling as is the fact that they
have been published. No wonder Willis has reacted:
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/360685338/pay-equity-enough-slurs-now-some-facts
Unlike Vance, Willis' response is at least civil.
I for one will never consider reading an article by Vance again. She >>>should be dismissed.
There has since my OP been considerable re-action that is appropriate
to the seriousness of events.
Andrea Vance, and Stuff as publisher, have suffered the reputation
loss they deserve. I believe this incident will serve as an example
of political discourse that has gone to far into viciousness and
offense.
The way forward remains for both Vance and Stuff to retract and
apologise but it looks like this will not happen. Accordingly I will >>rarely bother to read Vance's articles and everything from Stuff is of
low trustworthiness.
using themselves a word that they are claiming is offensive - and
attacking a journalist for her Free Speech - all to distract from the >appalling Trumpian authoritarian abandonment of democracy by ramming a
bill through parliament without notice, and without normal
opportunities for consideration by MPs or the Public. They are
rightfully copping a lot of stick for their sexist attacks on fair
wages in favour of lower tax for Landlords, and are just trying to
distract from their attack on women.
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