This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.How many people realise that hydroelectricity is a major producer of greenhouse gas?
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etgGr7cRW_cThanks Gordon, we are being fooled into thinking that solar is some sort of saviour and the same applies to wind generation.
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >>to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >>as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >>interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to
undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have no scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >>>to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >>>as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >>>interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
- ourWhat nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the
non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy
shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay
actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward
investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have no >>scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one. >>>>>
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a
dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts,
tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons- ourWhat nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising
prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian
Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New
Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or
New Zealand suppliers,
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally
- Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have no >scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons- ourWhat nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the
non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay
actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward
investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >>>to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >>>as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >>>interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand - our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the
non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy
shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay
actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward
investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have no >>>scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one. >>>>>>
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a
dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts,
tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons- ourWhat nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges - >>>>so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very >>>>low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising
prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy
companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian
Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New
Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or
New Zealand suppliers,
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to work. >Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. It is
a global economy.
With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market isbut the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally
- Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects.
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any
justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >>>to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >>>as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >>>interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand - our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway.
For us the biggest undermining of our energy
security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created emergencies.
I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the
non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy
shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay
actually goes to generate and deliver that power.
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward
investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so.
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have no >>>>>scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to >>>>>>>>collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one. >>>>>>>>
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 >>>>>>>>mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a
dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts,
tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>>>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>>>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges - >>>>>>so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very >>>>>>low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>>>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising
prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy
companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian
Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New
Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or
New Zealand suppliers,
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to work. >>>Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. It is >>>a global economy.
market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial
level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking
we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit .
OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>banking are harder . . .
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally
- Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects.
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any
justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Hydro generation is relatively easy - the system is fairly simple, and relatively long-lasting; maintenance is relatively minor
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand - our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy
security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created
emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the
non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy
shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay
actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward
investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
Leaving butter aside.
Any power station has a life time, during its life it will generate a
certain amount of power ant a certain cost. The cost will be lower if the >output is greater. Having a power station just sitting there not producing >power is raising the cost of the power.
If you are a power generator then your business is to generate power and get >the greatest profit out of your power station. You are in business to make a >profit.Which is the main reason why we have such high electricity prices -
If you think the power price is too high then you can place some solar
panels on your roof and a battery if you have excess power.
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so.
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have no >>>>scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to >>>>>>>collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one. >>>>>>>
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 >>>>>>>mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a
dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts,
tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges - >>>>>so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very >>>>>low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising
prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy
companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian
Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New
Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or
New Zealand suppliers,
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to work. >>Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. It is >>a global economy.
market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial
level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking
we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit .
. .That's political speak.
With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally
- Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects.
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >banking are harder . . .
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any
justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhat assertions?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have no >>scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to >>>>>collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one. >>>>>
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins >>>>>of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a
dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts,
tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
This has nothing to do with butter.There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons- ourWhat nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising
prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy >companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian
Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New
Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or
New Zealand suppliers, but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally
- Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the randomNo assertions, no ignorance (other than by you of course) and I am on topic - you are not.
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any >justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 00:55:42 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is work on supermarket alleged monopolies and you know that.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient >>>market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have >>>>>>no
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to >>>>>>>>>collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one. >>>>>>>>>
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 >>>>>>>>>mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand
scientific aptitude.
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a >>>>> dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts,
tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons >>>>> of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>>>>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>>>>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges - >>>>>>>so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very >>>>>>>low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>>>>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy
companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian
Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New
Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or >>>>> New Zealand suppliers,
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to work. >>>>Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. It is >>>>a global economy.
level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking
we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit . >>This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so.
That is good, Tony. What have they done?
That is for you to say. You raised the issue not me.OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>>banking are harder . . .
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally >>>>> - Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects.
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any >>>>> justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:No, I am only aware of a few comments from various politicians - what
On Thu, 22 May 2025 00:55:42 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is work on supermarket alleged monopolies and you know that.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient >>>>market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>>>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/ >>>>>>>>>>
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to >>>>>>>>>>collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one. >>>>>>>>>>
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 >>>>>>>>>>mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places. >>>>>>>>>>
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand >>>>>>>You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have >>>>>>>no
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a >>>>>> dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts, >>>>>> tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons >>>>>> of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising >>>>>> prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy >>>>>> companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>>>>>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>>>>>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>>>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges - >>>>>>>>so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very >>>>>>>>low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>>>>>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New
Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or >>>>>> New Zealand suppliers,
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to work. >>>>>Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. It is
a global economy.
level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking >>>>we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>>>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit . >>>This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so.
That is good, Tony. What have they done?
What part of "we should seek to go back to government controllingThat is for you to say. You raised the issue not me.OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>>>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>>>banking are harder . . .
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally >>>>>> - Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects.
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any >>>>>> justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand - our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it
gets to the dam spillway.
This crossed my mind. Certainly there will be more vegetation in the Amazon >basin rivers. What the amounts are is the question.
Largely true, running higher risks is consistent with higher profit .For us the biggest undermining of our energy
security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created
emergencies.
Your are confused on this point. Energy security is about being able to >access that energy. The price of it is another matter. Security is is much >more about the access of the power for the country. The Spain, French >blackout as an example.
Agreed - the article I remember (but not where it was!) looked atI saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the
non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy
shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay
actually goes to generate and deliver that power.
While we need more detail (and updated figures)
https://www.mbie.govt.nz/assets/Data-Files/Energy/nz-energy-quarterly-and-energy-in-nz/qrss-december-2024.xlsx
This gives and idea of the cost of generation and also the line costs. True >the profit margins are not split out
Energy generation and other 22.6 c/kWh
Lines charge 12.7 c/kWh
Total retail 35.4 c/kWh
So the line charge is about one third of the total for the lines charge and >2/3 for the generation. cf 5%. Needs more detail I suspect.
We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward
investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 02:04:18 -0000 (UTC), TonyIf you are that separated from what is occuring I feel sorry for all of the people you associate with.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:No, I am only aware of a few comments from various politicians - what
On Thu, 22 May 2025 00:55:42 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is work on supermarket alleged monopolies and you know that.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient >>>>>market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>>>>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial >>>>>level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking >>>>>we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>>>>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit . >>>>This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so.
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote: >>>>>>>>>scientific aptitude.
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/ >>>>>>>>>>>
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to >>>>>>>>>>>collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed >>>>>>>>>>>one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 >>>>>>>>>>>mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places. >>>>>>>>>>>
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>>>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand >>>>>>>>You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have >>>>>>>>no
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a >>>>>>> dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts, >>>>>>> tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons >>>>>>> of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising >>>>>>> prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy >>>>>>> companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian >>>>>>> Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New >>>>>>> Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or >>>>>>> New Zealand suppliers,- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy >>>>>>>>>security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices, >>>>>>>>>and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>>>>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges - >>>>>>>>>so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very >>>>>>>>>low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai) >>>>>>>>>but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>>>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to work. >>>>>>Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. It >>>>>>is
a global economy.
That is good, Tony. What have they done?
has actually happened, Tony?
I understand the sentence perfectly but I did not comment on it and I do not do so now. Whether I agree with it or not is not what this thread is about.What part of "we should seek to go back to government controllingThat is for you to say. You raised the issue not me.OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>>>>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>>>>banking are harder . . .
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally >>>>>>> - Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects.
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
generation and prices for electricity" did you not understand, Tony?
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random
thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any >>>>>>> justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:So you cannot identify anything either Tony . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 02:04:18 -0000 (UTC), TonyIf you are that separated from what is occuring I feel sorry for all of the >people you associate with.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:No, I am only aware of a few comments from various politicians - what
On Thu, 22 May 2025 00:55:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There is work on supermarket alleged monopolies and you know that.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That is good, Tony. What have they done?
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient >>>>>>market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>>>>>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial >>>>>>level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking >>>>>>we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>>>>>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit . >>>>>This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so. >>>>
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>no
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/ >>>>>>>>>>>>
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to >>>>>>>>>>>>collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed >>>>>>>>>>>>one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57
mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>>>>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand >>>>>>>>>You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you have
scientific aptitude.
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a >>>>>>>> dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts, >>>>>>>> tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons >>>>>>>> of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising >>>>>>>> prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy >>>>>>>> companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian >>>>>>>> Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New >>>>>>>> Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or >>>>>>>> New Zealand suppliers,- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our energy
security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>>>>>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges -
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very >>>>>>>>>>low power costs by international standards (and we give that to Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>>>>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to work.
Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. It >>>>>>>is
a global economy.
has actually happened, Tony?
I understand the sentence perfectly but I did not comment on it and I do not do
What part of "we should seek to go back to government controlling >>generation and prices for electricity" did you not understand, Tony?That is for you to say. You raised the issue not me.OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>>>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>>>>>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>>>>>banking are harder . . .
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally >>>>>>>> - Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects. >>>>>>>
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
so now. Whether I agree with it or not is not what this thread is about.
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random >>>>>>>> thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any >>>>>>>> justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:06:12 -0000 (UTC), TonyI didn't try to. You asked a stupid question.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:So you cannot identify anything either Tony . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 02:04:18 -0000 (UTC), TonyIf you are that separated from what is occuring I feel sorry for all of the >>people you associate with.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:No, I am only aware of a few comments from various politicians - what
On Thu, 22 May 2025 00:55:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There is work on supermarket alleged monopolies and you know that.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That is good, Tony. What have they done?
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient >>>>>>>market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>>>>>>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial >>>>>>>level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking >>>>>>>we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>>>>>>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit . >>>>>>This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so. >>>>>
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>no
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course >>>>>>>>>>>>>to
collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed >>>>>>>>>>>>>one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into >>>>>>>>>>>>>57
mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to >>>>>>>>>>>>undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand >>>>>>>>>>You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you >>>>>>>>>>have
scientific aptitude.
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a >>>>>>>>> dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts, >>>>>>>>> tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons >>>>>>>>> of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising >>>>>>>>> prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy >>>>>>>>> companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian >>>>>>>>> Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New >>>>>>>>> Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or >>>>>>>>> New Zealand suppliers,- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our >>>>>>>>>>>energy
security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up >>>>>>>>>>>prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from >>>>>>>>>>>the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges >>>>>>>>>>>-
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to >>>>>>>>>>>Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>>>>>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to >>>>>>>>work.
Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. >>>>>>>>It
is
a global economy.
has actually happened, Tony?
I understand the sentence perfectly but I did not comment on it and I do not >>do
What part of "we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>generation and prices for electricity" did you not understand, Tony?That is for you to say. You raised the issue not me.OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>>>>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>>>>>>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>>>>>>banking are harder . . .
but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally >>>>>>>>> - Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects. >>>>>>>>
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
so now. Whether I agree with it or not is not what this thread is about. >>>>>
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random >>>>>>>>> thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any >>>>>>>>> justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:06:12 -0000 (UTC), TonyI didn't try to. You asked a stupid question.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:So you cannot identify anything either Tony . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 02:04:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:If you are that separated from what is occuring I feel sorry for all of the >>>people you associate with.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:No, I am only aware of a few comments from various politicians - what >>>>has actually happened, Tony?
On Thu, 22 May 2025 00:55:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There is work on supermarket alleged monopolies and you know that.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That is good, Tony. What have they done?
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient >>>>>>>>market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>>>>>>>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial >>>>>>>>level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking >>>>>>>>we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>>>>>>>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit . >>>>>>>This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so. >>>>>>
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>no
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course >>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>57
mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just to
undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand >>>>>>>>>>>You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you >>>>>>>>>>>have
scientific aptitude.
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a >>>>>>>>>> dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts, >>>>>>>>>> tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons >>>>>>>>>> of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising >>>>>>>>>> prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy >>>>>>>>>> companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian >>>>>>>>>> Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New >>>>>>>>>> Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or >>>>>>>>>> New Zealand suppliers,- our
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>>>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our >>>>>>>>>>>>energy
security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up >>>>>>>>>>>>prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>>>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>>>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>>>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity charges
-
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>>>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to >>>>>>>>>>>>Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>>>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . . >>>>>>>>>>>What nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above!
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to >>>>>>>>>work.
Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. >>>>>>>>>It
is
a global economy.
If you had asked one with the slightest bit of logic I might have felt sorry >for you and answered it - but no promises eh?
I understand the sentence perfectly but I did not comment on it and I do not >>>doWhat part of "we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>generation and prices for electricity" did you not understand, Tony?That is for you to say. You raised the issue not me.OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>>>>>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>>>>>>>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>>>>>>>banking are harder . . .but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy locally
- Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects. >>>>>>>>>
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
so now. Whether I agree with it or not is not what this thread is about.
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random >>>>>>>>>> thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any >>>>>>>>>> justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 08:07:54 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, because it is a stupid question. Duh!
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:06:12 -0000 (UTC), TonyI didn't try to. You asked a stupid question.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:So you cannot identify anything either Tony . . .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 02:04:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:If you are that separated from what is occuring I feel sorry for all of the >>>>people you associate with.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 00:55:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There is work on supermarket alleged monopolies and you know that. >>>>>No, I am only aware of a few comments from various politicians - what >>>>>has actually happened, Tony?
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That is good, Tony. What have they done?
On 21 May 2025 22:07:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
On 2025-05-21, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sounds good Gordon, but even better to have a competitive efficient >>>>>>>>>market. As it is we appear to have almost no internal competition at >>>>>>>>>supermarket / consumer level, and very limited at the commercial >>>>>>>>>level. NZ is a small country, but with Dairy, Electricity and Banking >>>>>>>>>we appear to be closer to the ideal company for a shareholder - a cosy >>>>>>>>>cartel. Not easy to fix, but we should perhaps try just a little bit . >>>>>>>>This government is trying a little bit, the first in decades to do so. >>>>>>>
On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:07:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:But you can offer no proof of your assertions . . .
On Wed, 21 May 2025 18:07:03 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>no
On 20 May 2025 23:45:47 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transistion
to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
collaspe
as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into
57
mins of
interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
Is there no level of idiocy that these frauds will stoop to just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
undermine a country's energy security?
Bill.
I don't think the methane issue really applies in New Zealand >>>>>>>>>>>>You have no idea - you should avoid any science based comment, you >>>>>>>>>>>>have
scientific aptitude.
So what percentage of income from electricity users does end up as a
dividend to the gentailers shareholders? If you have all the facts, >>>>>>>>>>> tony, do tell us . . . . waiting . . . .
of butter each month - it was getting difficult to cope with rising >>>>>>>>>>> prices (10 tons a month was not enough to get discounts from dairy >>>>>>>>>>> companies), so they are now getting butter through an Australian >>>>>>>>>>> Broker who was able to get prices from Australia, the USA and New >>>>>>>>>>> Zealand, they are currently buying from the cheaper of Australian or- ourWhat nonsense - no basis in fact or science - see above! >>>>>>>>>>> There was an item on Radio about a bakery in Oamaru who uses 10 tons
hydro generation does not travel through much vegetation before it >>>>>>>>>>>>>gets to the dam spillway. For us the biggest undermining of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>energy
security is the benefit to generators from shortages to put up >>>>>>>>>>>>>prices,
and the use of polluting coal burning to meet artificially created >>>>>>>>>>>>>emergencies. I saw an article recently that said that dividends >>>>>>>>>>>>>from
the gen companies (which see a fairly high proportion of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>non-government part going overseas, or in any event to wealthy >>>>>>>>>>>>>shareholders) represent a high percentage of all electricity >>>>>>>>>>>>>charges
-
so that less than 10% (and possibly less that 5%) of what you pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>actually goes to generate and deliver that power. We should have >>>>>>>>>>>>>very
low power costs by international standards (and we give that to >>>>>>>>>>>>>Tiwai)
but instead we charge ourselves higher amounts so it can reward >>>>>>>>>>>>>investors. Apparently we are doing that with butter as well . . .
New Zealand suppliers,
Excellent, on a commerical basis this is how things are supposed to >>>>>>>>>>work.
Buyer tells the seller he will not pay the price and goes elsewhwere. >>>>>>>>>>It
is
a global economy.
I asked what had happened regarding supermarket monopolies - you seem
to think that is a stupid question - is that because nothing has
happened?
Then go away.....please!If you had asked one with the slightest bit of logic I might have felt sorry >>for you and answered it - but no promises eh?
No promises, no answers - you really are not worth talking to , Tony.
Wow you are such a baby.I understand the sentence perfectly but I did not comment on it and I do >>>>notWhat part of "we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>>generation and prices for electricity" did you not understand, Tony?That is for you to say. You raised the issue not me.OK, so what do you think should be done?That's political speak.With electricity, we should seek to go back to government controlling >>>>>>>>>generation and prices for electricity - the privatised market is >>>>>>>>>effectively a cartel with the incentive to maximise profit. Dairy and >>>>>>>>>banking are harder . . .but the concern was that our system must be
wrong to be able to more cheaply ship from Australia than buy >>>>>>>>>>>locally
- Oamaru is close to large dairy production . . .
You might think so but the market governs. Crazy in some aspects. >>>>>>>>>>
Question? If it is wrong how would you fix it?
do
so now. Whether I agree with it or not is not what this thread is about.
Of course - you are embarrassed at its relevance to the Subject . . .
Yet again your empty assertions show that you value the random >>>>>>>>>>> thoughts from your deranged little mind rather than ever provide any
justification of your ignorant assertions, Tony . . .
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
Yes excellent.
The section on hybrids is particularly good - many countries penalise them as >the article says because they use fuel but arguably that is an error.
Maybe haybrids should be treated differently.
How many people realise that hydroelectricity is a major producer of greenhouse
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >>to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >>as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >>interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
gas?
Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Ah thanks.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
Yes excellent.
The section on hybrids is particularly good - many countries penalise them as >>the article says because they use fuel but arguably that is an error.
Maybe haybrids should be treated differently.
How many people realise that hydroelectricity is a major producer of >>greenhouse
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >>>to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >>>as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >>>interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
gas?
It was put into the ETS some years ago cause a small rise in power
bills.
Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>https://quillette.com/2025/03/04/the-green-energy-delusion/
Yes excellent.
The section on hybrids is particularly good - many countries penalise them as >>the article says because they use fuel but arguably that is an error.
Maybe haybrids should be treated differently.
How many people realise that hydroelectricity is a major producer of greenhouse
This is another view point about how and what is the best way to transistion >>>to green energy. The issues and how we are on a collision course to collaspe >>>as energy is totally necessary to society, espically a developed one.
The link below is for those of you who like or wish to, dive into 57 mins of >>>interview. The Scottish accent is hard to follow in places.
Then we have
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions?ref=quillette.com
gas?
It was put into the ETS some years ago cause a small rise in power
bills.
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