From a reliable media source:So you can't provide the source. No surprise.
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >opportunity."
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Not hard to find out, but you would mis-represent that anyway.
From a reliable media source:So you can't provide the source. No surprise.
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>program for at least the day, National has now abused its
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>opportunity."
Even if you could it is garbage.Wow - what a surprise - you start with an unsupported opinion . . .
The three TPM abusers of process should consider themselves lucky that they >were treated so leniently.Abusers of process? Really? so what abuse of process do you think
There is no public anger, just a few noisy high profile militants and a >compliant press.There is a lot of public anger about the actions of the government in
Most New Zealanders are outrgaed at the performance of TPM in parliament that >day.No, proud of it, and appalled at the three government parties for not understanding what it means to be a new Zealander
Spin it any way you like but that is fact. The rest of the world laughed at us >and that is down to those three and people like you.They were enthralled, but also appalled at the Trump-like ignorant
The move yesterday in parliamanet was a smart one and it showed up the >opposition as incompetent.It showed desperation by the government - Hipkins spoke very well, and
On Wed, 21 May 2025 03:01:09 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhy should I find out. Are you ashamed of the source? If not, why is it a secret?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Not hard to find out, but you would mis-represent that anyway.
From a reliable media source:So you can't provide the source. No surprise.
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>opportunity."
I am entitled to those, especially since you express more of them than anyone else. As in this thread.Even if you could it is garbage.Wow - what a surprise - you start with an unsupported opinion . . .
Their behaviour in parliament was threatening and abusive, if you think otherwise then you are the same.The three TPM abusers of process should consider themselves lucky that they >>were treated so leniently.Abusers of process? Really? so what abuse of process do you think
happened, Tony?
Abuse removed. You really are a nasty prick.There is no public anger, just a few noisy high profile militants and a >>compliant press.There is a lot of public anger about the actions of the government in
trying to impose a draconian punishment just because they are racist
and authoritarian and were being shown up for it. You seem to have
missed the strength of public ange
THat is laughable - you really are easily fooled.Most New Zealanders are outrgaed at the performance of TPM in parliament that >>day.No, proud of it, and appalled at the three government parties for not >understanding what it means to be a new Zealander
The rest of the worl laughed at us - fact.Spin it any way you like but that is fact. The rest of the world laughed at >>usThey were enthralled, but also appalled at the Trump-like ignorant
and that is down to those three and people like you.
reaction to a mild protest as consistent rejection of many New
Zealanders as the government demonstrated their belief that they do
not need to consult with voters . . .
Hipkins lost it. the government made him look what he is - incompetent and racist.The move yesterday in parliamanet was a smart one and it showed up the >>opposition as incompetent.It showed desperation by the government - Hipkins spoke very well, and
they knew they needed to take a break to try and distract from the
issue - but it will come back to bite them.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes I agree that there is a lot of anger from Te Pati Maori, but also
On Wed, 21 May 2025 03:01:09 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhy should I find out. Are you ashamed of the source? If not, why is it a >secret?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Not hard to find out, but you would mis-represent that anyway.
From a reliable media source:So you can't provide the source. No surprise.
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>opportunity."
I am entitled to those, especially since you express more of them than anyone >else. As in this thread.
Even if you could it is garbage.Wow - what a surprise - you start with an unsupported opinion . . .
Their behaviour in parliament was threatening and abusive, if you think >otherwise then you are the same.
The three TPM abusers of process should consider themselves lucky that they >>>were treated so leniently.Abusers of process? Really? so what abuse of process do you think
happened, Tony?
Abuse removed. You really are a nasty prick.
There is no public anger, just a few noisy high profile militants and a >>>compliant press.There is a lot of public anger about the actions of the government in >>trying to impose a draconian punishment just because they are racist
and authoritarian and were being shown up for it. You seem to have
missed the strength of public ange
No, there is verty little anger except from TPM themselves and they are racist.
THat is laughable - you really are easily fooled.
Most New Zealanders are outrgaed at the performance of TPM in parliament thatNo, proud of it, and appalled at the three government parties for not >>understanding what it means to be a New Zealander
day.
The rest of the worl laughed at us - fact.
Spin it any way you like but that is fact. The rest of the world laughed at >>>usThey were enthralled, but also appalled at the Trump-like ignorant
and that is down to those three and people like you.
reaction to a mild protest as consistent rejection of many New
Zealanders as the government demonstrated their belief that they do
not need to consult with voters . . .
Hipkins lost it. the government made him look what he is - incompetent and >racist.
The move yesterday in parliamanet was a smart one and it showed up the >>>opposition as incompetent.It showed desperation by the government - Hipkins spoke very well, and
they knew they needed to take a break to try and distract from the
issue - but it will come back to bite them.
On Wed, 21 May 2025 07:11:27 -0000 (UTC), TonyYour sarcasm is unhealthy and almost as threatening as your lies.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes I agree that there is a lot of anger from Te Pati Maori, but also
On Wed, 21 May 2025 03:01:09 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhy should I find out. Are you ashamed of the source? If not, why is it a >>secret?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Not hard to find out, but you would mis-represent that anyway.
From a reliable media source:So you can't provide the source. No surprise.
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>opportunity."
I am entitled to those, especially since you express more of them than anyone >>else. As in this thread.
Even if you could it is garbage.Wow - what a surprise - you start with an unsupported opinion . . .
Their behaviour in parliament was threatening and abusive, if you think >>otherwise then you are the same.
The three TPM abusers of process should consider themselves lucky that they >>>>were treated so leniently.Abusers of process? Really? so what abuse of process do you think >>>happened, Tony?
Abuse removed. You really are a nasty prick.
There is no public anger, just a few noisy high profile militants and a >>>>compliant press.There is a lot of public anger about the actions of the government in >>>trying to impose a draconian punishment just because they are racist
and authoritarian and were being shown up for it. You seem to have
missed the strength of public ange
No, there is verty little anger except from TPM themselves and they are >>racist.
from the other opposition parties, and more importantly for those that
value the rule of law and honesty. - nobody else sees the pointing of
a finger as threatening with a gun, most MPS are used to a haka and
generally enjoy it, they did not hold up anyone voting - they only
started after all votes had been advised. More Luxon Lies are really
starting to annoy National Party Members.
THat is laughable - you really are easily fooled.
Most New Zealanders are outrgaed at the performance of TPM in parliament >>>>thatNo, proud of it, and appalled at the three government parties for not >>>understanding what it means to be a New Zealander
day.
The rest of the worl laughed at us - fact.
Spin it any way you like but that is fact. The rest of the world laughed at >>>>usThey were enthralled, but also appalled at the Trump-like ignorant >>>reaction to a mild protest as consistent rejection of many New
and that is down to those three and people like you.
Zealanders as the government demonstrated their belief that they do
not need to consult with voters . . .
Hipkins lost it. the government made him look what he is - incompetent and >>racist.
The move yesterday in parliamanet was a smart one and it showed up the >>>>opposition as incompetent.It showed desperation by the government - Hipkins spoke very well, and >>>they knew they needed to take a break to try and distract from the
issue - but it will come back to bite them.
From a reliable media source:
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >opportunity."
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>program for at least the day, National has now abused itsThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this
Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for anThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>program for at least the day, National has now abused its
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairlyThe government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully thisWater Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never shown either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody else.
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>program for at least the day, National has now abused itsThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this
Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te >reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never shown
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused itsThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the
headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of
parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody >else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te >>reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>shown
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody >>else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board
members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the
original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion -
are adopted.
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyI hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity >of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their >actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the >three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us and >understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>>shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody >>>else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board
members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the
original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion -
are adopted.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is no such word as Trumpian so far as an intelligent and English competent person is involved. You won't understand why I say that because you are English incompetent and lack any sort of language sense.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyI hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity >>of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their >>actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the >>three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us >>and
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of >>>>te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>>>shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody >>>>else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board
members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the
original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion -
are adopted.
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
Clearly the rules have not previouslyThey behaved in a manner that brought the country to a laughing stock. They behaved like 3 year old.
been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish
other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they
needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >government..
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyI hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity >>of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their >>actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the >>three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us and
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>>>shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody >>>>else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board
members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the
original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion -
are adopted.
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish
other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they
needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >government..
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:I am sorry you are so linguistically restricted, Tony. Even Trump has
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is no such word as Trumpian so far as an intelligent and English >competent person is involved. You won't understand why I say that because you >are English incompetent and lack any sort of language sense.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of >>>>>te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>>>>shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us >>>and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
Really? Do you have any evidence of that?Clearly the rules have not previouslyThey behaved in a manner that brought the country to a laughing stock.
been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they
needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>government..
They behaved like 3 year old.A fairly precocious 3-year old then Tony, but what is wrong with that?
You are a disgrace.And there you go again going totally off-topic . . .
You are a sociopath and you need help.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>>>>shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they
needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their
party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates
they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those
that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori
Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have
been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be
one of them.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly
blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 08:05:38 -0000 (UTC), TonyAll dickbot has is abuse.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is no such word as Trumpian so far as an intelligent and English >>competent person is involved. You won't understand why I say that because you >>are English incompetent and lack any sort of language sense.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use >>>>>>of
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>>>>>shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend >>>>their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect >>>>the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us >>>>and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
Yes, I watched the international news as I always do. You should try it if you can learn how tyo use a search engine.Clearly the rules have not previouslyThey behaved in a manner that brought the country to a laughing stock. >Really? Do you have any evidence of that?
been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they
needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>government..
TPM think they are mature, they are not hence their 3 year old behaviour.They behaved like 3 year old.A fairly precocious 3-year old then Tony, but what is wrong with that?
- Other politicians like Seymour and Luxon are regularly accused ofIrrelevant distraction and incorrect.
being laughing stock themselves.
So what law was broken? What court heard the case?Couldn't be more on topic!
You are a disgrace.And there you go again going totally off-topic . . .
You are a sociopath and you need help.
I suspect you are now totally confused - toddlers do tend to lash outYou would know! Your sociopathy is showing.
when they get uncomfortable with not understanding what is going on .
. .
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially >>>>>>>>>this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to >>>>>>>>>focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>>own abuses.There is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which >>>>>>>>>seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which >>>>>>>>>is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have >>>>>>>>>had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never >>>>>>shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their
party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates
they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those
that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori
Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have
been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be
one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been
unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for an >>>>>>>>>>epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative >>>>>>>>>>program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. OfficiallyThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>>>own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to >>>>>>>>>them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of >>>>>>>>>the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and >>>>>>>>>their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed, >>>>>>>>>non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their
party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates
they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori
Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have
been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be
one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been
unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this
decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues
referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them
involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of
them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural
background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:That is not at all what this is about. It is about respect or in the case of >the three TPM fools, disrespect. But that is not something you care about.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for anThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week >>>>>>>>>>>>to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>>>>>own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we >>>>>>>>>>>>have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend >>>>>>>their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect
the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at >>>>>>>us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this
decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them
involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural
background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many
Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective
protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori
Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >>intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it
is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs
to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British >>parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>That is not at all what this is about. It is about respect or in the case of the three TPM fools, disrespect. But that is not something you care about.
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>government..
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use >>>>>>>>of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for anThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week >>>>>>>>>>>to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>>>>own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we >>>>>>>>>>>have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend >>>>>>their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect >>>>>>the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at >>>>>>us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have
been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been
unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this
decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them
involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of
them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural
background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many
Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a
gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective
protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori
Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for
those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a
display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it
is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs
to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British
parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social
groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Fri, 23 May 2025 00:53:31 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is no "of course" about it, you don't respect anybody in this newsgroup, you don't respect anybody who has a different opinion to you, you don't respect those people who fight every day for freedom of expression and the end of racist policies by the greens and Labour. Your history here is proof. Not evidence, not possibility - but absolute proof.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:That is not at all what this is about. It is about respect or in the case of >>the three TPM fools, disrespect. But that is not something you care about.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>use
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about >>>>>>>>>>>that,
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>anThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this >>>>>>>>>>>>>week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government >>>>>>>>>>>>>abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary >>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political >>>>>>>>>>>>>opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we >>>>>>>>>>>>>have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply >>>>>>>>>>>>to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading >>>>>>>>>>>>of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill >>>>>>>>>>>>and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes >>>>>>>>>>>Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a >>>>>>>>>>>>Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work >>>>>>>>>>>is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend >>>>>>>>their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>disrespect
the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at >>>>>>>>us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this
decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural
background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many >>>Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective >>>protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori
Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >>>intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it
is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs
to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British >>>parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>>consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
Of course I do
- but clearly you do not understand that respect shouldThe government does respect Maori and so do I (you do not, otherwise you would not support TPM, but you won't uinderstand that). The government does respect the treaty and all that it genuilely implies, you do not (once more you are incapable of understanding that).
apply in both directions; the government does not appear to respect
Maori, or the commitments to Te Tiriti o Waitangi that they inherited
and for which they are responsible.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2025 00:53:31 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is no "of course" about it, you don't respect anybody in this newsgroup, >you don't respect anybody who has a different opinion to you, you don't respect
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Of course I do
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:That is not at all what this is about. It is about respect or in the case of >>>the three TPM fools, disrespect. But that is not something you care about. >>
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>use
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about >>>>>>>>>>>>that,
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political >>>>>>>>>>>>>>opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill >>>>>>>>>>>>>and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes >>>>>>>>>>>>Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work >>>>>>>>>>>>is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>disrespect
the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many >>>>Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the >>>>symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as >>>>symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>>gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective >>>>protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori >>>>Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and >>>>even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>>those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>>display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >>>>intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it >>>>is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs >>>>to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British >>>>parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>>cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>>>consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>>groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
those people who fight every day for freedom of expression and the end of >racist policies by the greens and Labour. Your history here is proof. Not >evidence, not possibility - but absolute proof.
- but clearly you do not understand that respect shouldThe government does respect Maori and so do I (you do not, otherwise you would >not support TPM, but you won't uinderstand that). The government does respect >the treaty and all that it genuilely implies, you do not (once more you are >incapable of understanding that).
apply in both directions; the government does not appear to respect
Maori, or the commitments to Te Tiriti o Waitangi that they inherited
and for which they are responsible.
You are a total disgrace. You respect nothing of value.
Freedom of expression was exactly what TMP were exercising
On Fri, 23 May 2025 02:14:08 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2025 00:53:31 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere is no "of course" about it, you don't respect anybody in this >>newsgroup,
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Of course I do
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:the three TPM fools, disrespect. But that is not something you care about. >>>
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. >>>>>>>>>>>In
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>use
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>its
own abuses.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about >>>>>>>>>>>>>that,
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we
have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first >>>>>>>>>>>>>>reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>bill
and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the >>>>>>>>>>>>>implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the >>>>>>>>>>>>racist,
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes >>>>>>>>>>>>>Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government >>>>>>>>>>>>>providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little >>>>>>>>>>>>>work
is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>>
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my
locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges >>>>>>>>>>>Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that >>>>>>>>>>defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>>disrespect
the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed >>>>>>>>>>at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many >>>>>Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the >>>>>symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as >>>>>symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament. >>>>>The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>>>gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective >>>>>protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori >>>>>Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and >>>>>even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>>>those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>>>display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >>>>>intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament >>>>>needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it >>>>>is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs >>>>>to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British >>>>>parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>>>cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>>>>consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>>>groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture. >>>>That is not at all what this is about. It is about respect or in the case >>>>of
you don't respect anybody who has a different opinion to you, you don't >>respect
those people who fight every day for freedom of expression and the end of >>racist policies by the greens and Labour. Your history here is proof. Not >>evidence, not possibility - but absolute proof.
You can take this personally if you wish Tony
, but I do disagree withWhat nonsense. I am not a racist, that is you and TPM - you and they are a disgrace to NZ. Especially you because I can understand that TPM are driven by greed, you are driven by hatred.
most things you say, you never justify your arguments; you hate
freedom of expression (that is what Te Maori Pati were exercising!),
and your racism blinds you to what a lack of such prejudice looks
like.
Freedom of expression was exactly what TMP were exercising - their jobThat is a lie they were disrespectful and not in any way representing anybody but their greedy selves.
is to represent the interests of their party and their electorate, and
they showed that clearly - that you do not agree is irrelevant - they
were representing their electorates; they have both the obligation and
the right to do that.
What a silly creature you are - that diatribe does nothing other than show your bias.- but clearly you do not understand that respect shouldThe government does respect Maori and so do I (you do not, otherwise you >>would
apply in both directions; the government does not appear to respect >>>Maori, or the commitments to Te Tiriti o Waitangi that they inherited
and for which they are responsible.
not support TPM, but you won't uinderstand that). The government does respect >>the treaty and all that it genuilely implies, you do not (once more you are >>incapable of understanding that).
You are a total disgrace. You respect nothing of value.
Since the current government has put forward one Bill that tried to
ignore their Treaty obligations, and is planning on putting forward
another that they have been told by legal experts ignores their
obligations under the Treaty to consult with Maori, your statements
above are total bullshit - but they are just your personal opinions -
no evidence, just a clear distance from reality and truth.
Yes I do agree with some of the policies of TPM, but not all of them -I didn't know you had a sense of humour - well done, a good laugh.
you and ACT1stNat have shown nothing but contempt for that party, as
well as a lack of understanding of the duties of Members of
Parliament. Sadly we have over a year more to go of the dishonesty and >incompetence of the current government . . .
On Fri, 23 May 2025 20:42:09 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Freedom of expression was exactly what TMP were exercising
They were being paid to do a job. In any workplace, there are limits
on freedom of speech. For example, you cant go bagging the company to
the clients during work time. That would be one of the quickest ways
to have the CEO's boot launched up your backside.
They were free to do their little dance any time they wanted except in >parliament where they are paid to follow the rules. No different to
any other salaried employee.
Bill.
On Sat, 24 May 2025 06:52:28 +1200, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:That is just horseshit, you are trying to defend the indefensible and you have failed, again!
On Fri, 23 May 2025 20:42:09 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
Freedom of expression was exactly what TMP were exercising
They were being paid to do a job. In any workplace, there are limits
on freedom of speech. For example, you cant go bagging the company to
the clients during work time. That would be one of the quickest ways
to have the CEO's boot launched up your backside.
They were free to do their little dance any time they wanted except in >>parliament where they are paid to follow the rules. No different to
any other salaried employee.
Bill.
They were representing their electorate, which is what they are being
paid to do. The Haka was an expression of the concerns of the people
that voted for them, and enhanced the point that they were making,
without taking any significant time. It did not delay the vote or the >business of the house significantly, but it did demonstrate more than
just words could have the deep emotion that was involved. Remember
that there have been similar demonstrations of high emotion in the
house on a number of occasions - sanctioned by the Speaker and other >political parties, when a waiata, although not as far as I am aware >sanctioned by the bland meeting rules of parliament, have been
welcomed by all parties - they have been used to honour a member of >parliament and to celebrate particular decisions, or commemorate past
events. We are a not all descended from British immigrants, and
speakers have been allowed to use other languages than the official
languages of New Zealand in speeches - particularly inaugural and
retirement speeches, but also on other occasions when speakers of
other languages have been acknowledged.
Freedom of Speech is part of Freedom of Expression - this was a short
example of the exercising of that Human Right - that is did not find
favour with all members of parliament is of little concern; it was a
group of MPs letting a group of voters know that they were looking
after their interests, as it is their duty and their right to do.
One thing that the fuss about it has done is demonstrate to those
voters who feel that their interests are being represented is to
result in TMP being supported by relatively large gatherings intended
to support the message that the decisions being made by the ACT party
with support from National and NZ First are very strongly resisted. It
did not change those decisions, but it does send a message from that
part of the community that they do not appreciate the discrimination
against them and the deception inherent in the way Seymour in
particular is trying to radically change a Treaty that is important to
many New Zealanders, but particularly to Maori.
The section of House Rules under which members of parliament work are
there for maintenance of Order in the House; they are not intended to
punish members for their opinions; and the Committee of the House
which Collins currently chairs is not a court. It is not there to
replace the Court system for offences against the laws, it is to
assist the maintenance of Order in the House. Order was quickly
restored, but the offence is essentially procedural - they did not
have the approval of the Speaker to speak as a group at that time. It
was an expression of strong views, and that should not be suppressed,
but similarly the Privileges Committee is not there to create crimes.
A suspension for a short period is common - and the Speaker can for
example ask a member or members to temporarily leave the house, but to
use that to prevent a member from voting on a bill would be very
undesirable. To try to impose a fine is against the spirit of
inclusiveness that is the purpose of accepting that Opposition is an
integral part of the House of Parliament - the expression of different
views is what leads us to better legislation. The attempt to fine MPS
for brief behaviour in the house is going too far - and if an offence
against our laws had happened it should have been referred to Police
for appropriate action.
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>government..
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the use of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that, >>>>>>>>>and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for anThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing >>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>>>>own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents, >>>>>>>>>>>merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay >>>>>>>>>is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is >>>>>>>>>being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour >>>>>>>>>>Government that handed all water resource management to a co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages.
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have
been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been
unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this
decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them
involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of
them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural
background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many
Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a
gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective
protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori
Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for
those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a
display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it
is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs
to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British
parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social
groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He is in denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all they can to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the >>>>>>>>>use of te
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for >>>>>>>>>>>>anThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but >>>>>>>>>>>>Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week >>>>>>>>>>>>to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its >>>>>>>>>>>>own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech, >>>>>>>>>>>>this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of >>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we >>>>>>>>>>>>have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply >>>>>>>>>>>to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading >>>>>>>>>>>of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill >>>>>>>>>>>and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle >>>>>>>>>>>other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing >>>>>>>>>>funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend >>>>>>>their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at >>>>>>>us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this
decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them
involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural
background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many
Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the >proceedings.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a
gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective
protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori
Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for
those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a
display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or
intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it
is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs
to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British
parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different
cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be
consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social
groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He is in >denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all they can >to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>use of te
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>anThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and >>>>>>>>>>>>>anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we >>>>>>>>>>>>>have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first >>>>>>>>>>>>>opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply >>>>>>>>>>>>to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading >>>>>>>>>>>>of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill >>>>>>>>>>>>and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications >>>>>>>>>>>of the Treaty of Waitangi
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water.
Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In >>>>>>>>>contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee >>>>>>>>>recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend >>>>>>>>their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at >>>>>>>>us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this
decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural
background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many
Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the >>proceedings.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a
gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective
protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori
Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for
those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a
display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or
intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it
is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs
to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British
parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different
cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be
consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social
groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Sat, 24 May 2025 01:00:46 -0000 (UTC), TonyPerhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He is in >>denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all they can
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>use of te
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin. >>>>>>>>>>>>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill >>>>>>>>>>>>>and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e >>>>>>>>>>>That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist, >>>>>>>>>>>undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my >>>>>>>>>>locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many
Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the >>>proceedings.
to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
I agree Tony - and I entirely agree with Gordon's preceding
observations.
Parliament is not a place for Maori to disrupt proceedings with any
form of cultural performance, any more than any other group of MPs
doing the same.
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a
gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective
protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori
Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>> those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a
display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or
intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it >>>> is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs
to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British
parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>> cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be
consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>> groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Sat, 24 May 2025 13:45:46 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 01:00:46 -0000 (UTC), TonyPerhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He is in >>>denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all they can
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the >>>>>>>>>>gravity
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains >>>>>>>>>>>in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>use of te
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we
have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill
and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two >>>>>>>>>>>>>bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have >>>>>>>>>>>>never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has >>>>>>>>>>>>anybody
else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist,
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas - >>>>>>>>>>>>>with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>>
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my
locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion - >>>>>>>>>>>are adopted.
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish >>>>>>>>>other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many
Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament.
The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the >>>>proceedings.
to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
I agree Tony - and I entirely agree with Gordon's preceding
observations.
Parliament is not a place for Maori to disrupt proceedings with any
form of cultural performance, any more than any other group of MPs
doing the same.
disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as
much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and
dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.
The most obvious practitioners of cultural performance would be Peters
and Jones of the Winston First party - Winston has mastered the art of >insulting others through rhetoric and the ability to define himself
with whatever arguments he needs to try to dominate the stage; calling
on his cultural heritage with whichever mix of Maori, Scottish and
pure self-interest as best suits at the time. He can waste more of the
time of parliament than any other single politician, and is backed by
his good mate Shane in putting donors ahead of policy. He accepts that
being asked to leave for a short period is a price for staying in the
news.
Luxon is still like a fish out of water, and has not learned very
much beyond trying to give himself time to think through starting
statements with "I would say to you" or similar - somehow it never
helps. He tries to be away as often as possible. Other National Party
MPs tend to pursue slogans - they know that the policy is business
first, workers too expensive and "Tough on Crime" - they have spent
all they can afford on helping donors and are happy with the pay . . .
Labour generally address issues directly, but suffer from the ability
of the government to avoid questions and cut debate short if it is not
going their way - poor Brownlee is often happy to move on when Labour
put Ministers into trouble.
Cultural performances do change over time though, and parliament needs
to understand that this is at times necessary, and that both voters
and MPs have different cultural priorities. The overreach of Crusher
with the Privileges Committee was embarrassing to the Government -
they had no real argument against the speech Hipkins gave as to why
they had it wrong, so tobacco funded Chris Bishop shut it down very
quickly - to the surprise of Brownlee and nearly everyone else - a
mild over-ride of standing orders but he got away with it; National
knew they had no adequate defense.
So theatre and playing the game are a major part of parliament - they
all perform; and the performance by TPM was fully justified by the
extremism of the government parties in allowing ACT to have put
forward such a divisive bill that breaks the old National Party pride
in honouring contracts, perhaps especially because it almost certainly
goes again wise public sector advice - although any such advice will
not be released . . .
How a party represents those who voted for them is up to each party,
but they all know that they need to first gain attention and secondly
get their arguments through if they are to retain and increase votes.
there is little point in trying to make up silly rules just to suit
the governing parties - all rules are pushed to the limit by all
parties when necessary for their fundamental purpose - to represent
those that have voted for them and those they want to vote for them at
the next election. TPM have both the right and the obligation to
represent those that voted for them - and they did that effectively
recently, in a form that is more widely understood now that it was a
few years ago.
The speech by Chris Hipkins covered the issues well - if National
could accept that they were not winning the argument with the public,
perhaps he got it right, and National were left being played by the
ACT Party - again!
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>>> gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective
protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori >>>>> Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and
even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>>> those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>>> display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or
intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it >>>>> is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs >>>>> to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British
parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>>> cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be
consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>>> groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Sat, 24 May 2025 16:07:46 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 13:45:46 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 01:00:46 -0000 (UTC), TonyPerhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He is in
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the >>>>>proceedings.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>>>government..
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website.
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The two
The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government
which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition.
Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we
have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill
and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
use of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have
never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has
anybody
else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist,
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>>>
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my
locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion -
are adopted.
gravity
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously >>>>>>>>>>been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those >>>>>>>>>that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them.
Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many >>>>>> Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament. >>>>>
denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all they can
to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
I agree Tony - and I entirely agree with Gordon's preceding
observations.
Parliament is not a place for Maori to disrupt proceedings with any
form of cultural performance, any more than any other group of MPs
doing the same.
disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as
much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.
You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no
longer possible.
To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.
The most obvious practitioners of cultural performance would be Peters
and Jones of the Winston First party - Winston has mastered the art of >>insulting others through rhetoric and the ability to define himself
with whatever arguments he needs to try to dominate the stage; calling
on his cultural heritage with whichever mix of Maori, Scottish and
pure self-interest as best suits at the time. He can waste more of the
time of parliament than any other single politician, and is backed by
his good mate Shane in putting donors ahead of policy. He accepts that >>being asked to leave for a short period is a price for staying in the
news.
Luxon is still like a fish out of water, and has not learned very
much beyond trying to give himself time to think through starting >>statements with "I would say to you" or similar - somehow it never
helps. He tries to be away as often as possible. Other National Party
MPs tend to pursue slogans - they know that the policy is business
first, workers too expensive and "Tough on Crime" - they have spent
all they can afford on helping donors and are happy with the pay . . .
Labour generally address issues directly, but suffer from the ability
of the government to avoid questions and cut debate short if it is not >>going their way - poor Brownlee is often happy to move on when Labour
put Ministers into trouble.
Cultural performances do change over time though, and parliament needs
to understand that this is at times necessary, and that both voters
and MPs have different cultural priorities. The overreach of Crusher
with the Privileges Committee was embarrassing to the Government -
they had no real argument against the speech Hipkins gave as to why
they had it wrong, so tobacco funded Chris Bishop shut it down very
quickly - to the surprise of Brownlee and nearly everyone else - a
mild over-ride of standing orders but he got away with it; National
knew they had no adequate defense.
So theatre and playing the game are a major part of parliament - they
all perform; and the performance by TPM was fully justified by the >>extremism of the government parties in allowing ACT to have put
forward such a divisive bill that breaks the old National Party pride
in honouring contracts, perhaps especially because it almost certainly
goes again wise public sector advice - although any such advice will
not be released . . .
How a party represents those who voted for them is up to each party,
but they all know that they need to first gain attention and secondly
get their arguments through if they are to retain and increase votes.
there is little point in trying to make up silly rules just to suit
the governing parties - all rules are pushed to the limit by all
parties when necessary for their fundamental purpose - to represent
those that have voted for them and those they want to vote for them at
the next election. TPM have both the right and the obligation to
represent those that voted for them - and they did that effectively >>recently, in a form that is more widely understood now that it was a
few years ago.
The speech by Chris Hipkins covered the issues well - if National
could accept that they were not winning the argument with the public, >>perhaps he got it right, and National were left being played by the
ACT Party - again!
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>>>> gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective >>>>>> protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori >>>>>> Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and >>>>>> even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>>>> those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>>>> display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or
intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament
needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it >>>>>> is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs >>>>>> to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British
parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>>>> cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>>>>> consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>>>> groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 16:07:46 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 13:45:46 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 01:00:46 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He is in
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the >>>>>>proceedings.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The twoThe government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government
which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition.
Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we
have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill
and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
use of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have
never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has
anybody
else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist,
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my
locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion -
are adopted.
gravity
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously
other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those
that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them. >>>>>>>>
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many >>>>>>> Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the
symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament. >>>>>>
denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all they can
to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
I agree Tony - and I entirely agree with Gordon's preceding >>>>observations.
Parliament is not a place for Maori to disrupt proceedings with any >>>>form of cultural performance, any more than any other group of MPs >>>>doing the same.
disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.
You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no
longer possible.
To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.
In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and
those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for
them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to
come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political
party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the
other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
Do you really not understand that?
The most obvious practitioners of cultural performance would be Peters >>>and Jones of the Winston First party - Winston has mastered the art of >>>insulting others through rhetoric and the ability to define himself
with whatever arguments he needs to try to dominate the stage; calling
on his cultural heritage with whichever mix of Maori, Scottish and
pure self-interest as best suits at the time. He can waste more of the >>>time of parliament than any other single politician, and is backed by
his good mate Shane in putting donors ahead of policy. He accepts that >>>being asked to leave for a short period is a price for staying in the >>>news.
Luxon is still like a fish out of water, and has not learned very
much beyond trying to give himself time to think through starting >>>statements with "I would say to you" or similar - somehow it never
helps. He tries to be away as often as possible. Other National Party
MPs tend to pursue slogans - they know that the policy is business
first, workers too expensive and "Tough on Crime" - they have spent
all they can afford on helping donors and are happy with the pay . . .
Labour generally address issues directly, but suffer from the ability
of the government to avoid questions and cut debate short if it is not >>>going their way - poor Brownlee is often happy to move on when Labour
put Ministers into trouble.
Cultural performances do change over time though, and parliament needs
to understand that this is at times necessary, and that both voters
and MPs have different cultural priorities. The overreach of Crusher
with the Privileges Committee was embarrassing to the Government -
they had no real argument against the speech Hipkins gave as to why
they had it wrong, so tobacco funded Chris Bishop shut it down very >>>quickly - to the surprise of Brownlee and nearly everyone else - a
mild over-ride of standing orders but he got away with it; National
knew they had no adequate defense.
So theatre and playing the game are a major part of parliament - they
all perform; and the performance by TPM was fully justified by the >>>extremism of the government parties in allowing ACT to have put
forward such a divisive bill that breaks the old National Party pride
in honouring contracts, perhaps especially because it almost certainly >>>goes again wise public sector advice - although any such advice will
not be released . . .
How a party represents those who voted for them is up to each party,
but they all know that they need to first gain attention and secondly
get their arguments through if they are to retain and increase votes. >>>there is little point in trying to make up silly rules just to suit
the governing parties - all rules are pushed to the limit by all
parties when necessary for their fundamental purpose - to represent
those that have voted for them and those they want to vote for them at >>>the next election. TPM have both the right and the obligation to >>>represent those that voted for them - and they did that effectively >>>recently, in a form that is more widely understood now that it was a
few years ago.
The speech by Chris Hipkins covered the issues well - if National
could accept that they were not winning the argument with the public, >>>perhaps he got it right, and National were left being played by the
ACT Party - again!
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>>>>> gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective >>>>>>> protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori >>>>>>> Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and >>>>>>> even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>>>>> those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>>>>> display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >>>>>>> intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament >>>>>>> needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it >>>>>>> is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs >>>>>>> to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British >>>>>>> parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>>>>> cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>>>>>> consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>>>>> groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Sat, 24 May 2025 22:00:37 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>Of course there are, and many MPs regularly either slide along the
wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 16:07:46 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 13:45:46 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 01:00:46 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He is in
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote:The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the >>>>>>>proceedings.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to punish
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider the
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use remains
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce the
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared up forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments begin.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its outrageous and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow this week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" of its
own abuses.
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The twoThe government is clearly hoping that public anger over this will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a government
which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle opposition.
Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive government we
have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the bill
and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises about that,
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
use of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You have
never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither has
anybody
else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the racist,
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully this
Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local rates. e
undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this year. In
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware of my
locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my opinion -
are adopted.
gravity
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world laughed at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not previously
other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have >>>>>>>>>>>>led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so those
that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be >>>>>>>>>>>one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them. >>>>>>>>>
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many >>>>>>>> Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the >>>>>>>> symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as
symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament. >>>>>>>
denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all they can
to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
I agree Tony - and I entirely agree with Gordon's preceding >>>>>observations.
Parliament is not a place for Maori to disrupt proceedings with any >>>>>form of cultural performance, any more than any other group of MPs >>>>>doing the same.
disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.
You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>longer possible.
To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.
In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for
them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to
come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the
other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
Do you really not understand that?
Do you not understand that there are rules of conduct in Parliament
that must be adhered to and were broken by the Maori Party MPs that
have sanctions recommended against them?
No amount of cultural context is a reason to escape the consequences
of breaking the rules.
In respect of Maori representation in Parliament there are plenty ofTime was that both Labour and National would at least assert that they represented all New Zealanders, whether Maori, Pakeha, or immigrants.
Maori in Parliament representing non-Maori political parties. When the
Maori seats were created and retained, it was inconceivable that any
Maori would be elected without an exclusive electoral roll for Maori
seats. That is no longer the case.
The most obvious practitioners of cultural performance would be Peters >>>>and Jones of the Winston First party - Winston has mastered the art of >>>>insulting others through rhetoric and the ability to define himself >>>>with whatever arguments he needs to try to dominate the stage; calling >>>>on his cultural heritage with whichever mix of Maori, Scottish and
pure self-interest as best suits at the time. He can waste more of the >>>>time of parliament than any other single politician, and is backed by >>>>his good mate Shane in putting donors ahead of policy. He accepts that >>>>being asked to leave for a short period is a price for staying in the >>>>news.
Luxon is still like a fish out of water, and has not learned very
much beyond trying to give himself time to think through starting >>>>statements with "I would say to you" or similar - somehow it never >>>>helps. He tries to be away as often as possible. Other National Party >>>>MPs tend to pursue slogans - they know that the policy is business >>>>first, workers too expensive and "Tough on Crime" - they have spent
all they can afford on helping donors and are happy with the pay . . .
Labour generally address issues directly, but suffer from the ability >>>>of the government to avoid questions and cut debate short if it is not >>>>going their way - poor Brownlee is often happy to move on when Labour >>>>put Ministers into trouble.
Cultural performances do change over time though, and parliament needs >>>>to understand that this is at times necessary, and that both voters
and MPs have different cultural priorities. The overreach of Crusher >>>>with the Privileges Committee was embarrassing to the Government -
they had no real argument against the speech Hipkins gave as to why >>>>they had it wrong, so tobacco funded Chris Bishop shut it down very >>>>quickly - to the surprise of Brownlee and nearly everyone else - a
mild over-ride of standing orders but he got away with it; National >>>>knew they had no adequate defense.
So theatre and playing the game are a major part of parliament - they >>>>all perform; and the performance by TPM was fully justified by the >>>>extremism of the government parties in allowing ACT to have put
forward such a divisive bill that breaks the old National Party pride >>>>in honouring contracts, perhaps especially because it almost certainly >>>>goes again wise public sector advice - although any such advice will >>>>not be released . . .
How a party represents those who voted for them is up to each party, >>>>but they all know that they need to first gain attention and secondly >>>>get their arguments through if they are to retain and increase votes. >>>>there is little point in trying to make up silly rules just to suit
the governing parties - all rules are pushed to the limit by all >>>>parties when necessary for their fundamental purpose - to represent >>>>those that have voted for them and those they want to vote for them at >>>>the next election. TPM have both the right and the obligation to >>>>represent those that voted for them - and they did that effectively >>>>recently, in a form that is more widely understood now that it was a >>>>few years ago.
The speech by Chris Hipkins covered the issues well - if National
could accept that they were not winning the argument with the public, >>>>perhaps he got it right, and National were left being played by the
ACT Party - again!
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>>>>>> gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective >>>>>>>> protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori >>>>>>>> Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and >>>>>>>> even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for >>>>>>>> those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>>>>>> display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >>>>>>>> intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament >>>>>>>> needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it >>>>>>>> is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs >>>>>>>> to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British >>>>>>>> parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different >>>>>>>> cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>>>>>>> consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social >>>>>>>> groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
On Sun, 25 May 2025 11:28:11 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Totally irrelevant.
wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 22:00:37 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:Of course there are, and many MPs regularly either slide along the
On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 16:07:46 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 13:45:46 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2025 01:00:46 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2025-05-23, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Rich won't even try to understand that simple and accurate concept. He >>>>>>>is in
On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:32:12 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote:The point is that is was not the TMP place to speak. They distrupted the
On Thu, 22 May 2025 21:22:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 20:55:27 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Looking at the most recent decisions from this Committee, this >>>>>>>>>>decision is very different to all the others. All the other issues >>>>>>>>>>referred to the committee involved a single MP and none of them >>>>>>>>>>involved any issue of intimidation or cultural practice - and none of >>>>>>>>>>them involved behaviour in the House.
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:06:48 +1200, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2025 03:03:33 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:been tested by a vicious and extremist government that wants to >>>>>>>>>>>>>punish
On Thu, 22 May 2025 01:59:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I hope they are too. The penalties are moderate when you consider >>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Dead right Tony. Responsibility for water assets that I use >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remains
On Thu, 22 May 2025 13:05:21 +1200, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Neither of those statements is true. Nobody is trying to reduce >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2025 14:22:26 +1200, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>It is all quote - from the No Right Turn website. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
wrote:
From a reliable media source:
Why not cite it?
"So, that was a bit of a damp squib. Everyone having geared >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>up forThere is no telling where your quote ends and your comments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>begin.
an
epic filibuster battle which would upset the government's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>legislative
program for at least the day, National has now abused its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary majority to adjourn the debate on its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>outrageous and
anti-democratic punishment of Te Pati Maori MPs until June. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Officially
this is to allow those MPs to participate in the budget >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>debate, but
Chris Bishop said the quiet part out loud: it's to "allow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this week
to
focus on the Budget", rather than on a tyrannical government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>abusing
parliamentary processes to effectively lynch its primary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
In other words, to ensure the government gets to control the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headlines, rather than having to deal with the "distraction" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of its
own abuses.
blatant at times - Seymour and Luxon have both made noises >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>about that,The government is clearly hoping that public anger over this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>will
dissipate. I am hoping it won't. And hopefully that anger >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>will be
shown to government MPs where-ever they go. This is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government
which
seriously suggested arbitrarily imprisoning its political >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opponents,
merely for the opposing them. As Chris Hipkins noted in his >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>speech,
this regime is departing significantly from the democratic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>norms of
Aotearoa. It is acting like a tinpot dictatorship. It is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>directly
attacking our democracy. And that is not something the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people of
Aotearoa should tolerate or forgive.
National's move to ram through an adjournment caught >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone by
surprise, including Brownlee. It was yet another abuse of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parliamentary procedure to prevent debate and stifle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
Which
is the central feature of this government: urgency and abuse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
process all round. They are the worst, most abusive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government we
have
had since Muldoon. And we should kick their arses out at the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>first
opportunity."
I for one and getting a little tired of assertions that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Maori
Party is the victim of racism. In Parliament, the same rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>apply
to
them as to everyone else and their actions during the first >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>reading
of
the Treaty Principles Bill demonstrate both their fear of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bill
and
their belief that the rules don't apply to them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The attempts to reduce the use of the Maori language are fairly
and tried to minimise us of one of our Official languages. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>two
bills from ACT are however blatantly trying to deny the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>implications
of the Treaty of Waitangi
use of te
reo maori and nobody is denying anything about the treaty. You >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have
never
shown
either of those offensive allegations to be correct and neither >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has
anybody
else.
That is distraction. Nothing that has occurred justified the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>racist,
Water Resource management has stagnated under National - as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hawkes Bay
The actions of the Government on this are benign compared to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a Labour
Government that handed all water resource management to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>co-governed,
non-elected, racially biased governing bodies. Thankfully >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this
Government dismantled this as it should, but their resolve to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tackle
other issues is sorely lacking.
is finding, they would have been better off with government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>providing
funding at a lower rate than they can raise money. In most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>areas -
with the possible exception of Auckland and Wellington, little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>work is
being done as needed work cannot be afforded through local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rates. e
undemocratic actions taken by Labour with respect to water. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
in Kaikohe, overseen by those who will be elected later this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>year. In
contrast, Water Entity A staff might well be completely unaware >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of my
locality and administered by un-elected, racially-selected board >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>members.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Privileges >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Committee
recommendations in respect of the 3 Maori Party MPs. I hope the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>original recommendations - all very moderate to weak in my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opinion -
are adopted.
gravity
of their behaviour, they deserved harsher punishment. Those that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>defend
their
actions are either politically driven or in denial of the huge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>disrespect the
three exhibited of the country and our parliament. The world >>>>>>>>>>>>>>laughed at
us and
understandably so, we looked like a bunch of uneducated savages. >>>>>>>>>>>>>How very Trumpian of you, Tony. Clearly the rules have not >>>>>>>>>>>>>previously
other MPS for political reasons - perhaps Crusher knew that they >>>>>>>>>>>>>needed a distraction from some of the appalling decisions that have
led to further nasty budget decisions by an increasingly desperate >>>>>>>>>>>>>government..
It is the Maori Party that are increasingly desperate Rich. Their >>>>>>>>>>>>party vote percentage is microscopically small. In the electorates >>>>>>>>>>>>they won the party vote went overwhelmingly to other parties, so >>>>>>>>>>>>those
that voted for Maori Party candidates did not want to see the Maori >>>>>>>>>>>>Party form a Government.
As for the coalition Government - I agree that poor decisions have >>>>>>>>>>>>been made, but supporting Privileges Committee decisions will not be
one of them.
Decisions by previous Privileges Committees have generally been >>>>>>>>>>>unanimous - it was clear that Brownlee did not agree with them. >>>>>>>>>>
This decision relates to MPs who believe that their cultural >>>>>>>>>>background exempts them from the normal rules of the house.
I doubt that there are many New Zealanders, and certainly not many >>>>>>>>> Members of Parliament, who are not familiar with a haka and the >>>>>>>>> symbolism of it; the use by TMP would have been understood as >>>>>>>>> symbolising the views of that small group of Members of Parliament. >>>>>>>>
proceedings.
denial of the truth that TMP are opposed to democracy and will do all >>>>>>>they can
to not fulfil their obligations as MPs. They are simply greedy.
I agree Tony - and I entirely agree with Gordon's preceding >>>>>>observations.
Parliament is not a place for Maori to disrupt proceedings with any >>>>>>form of cultural performance, any more than any other group of MPs >>>>>>doing the same.
You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>longer possible.
To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.
In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
Do you really not understand that?
Do you not understand that there are rules of conduct in Parliament
that must be adhered to and were broken by the Maori Party MPs that
have sanctions recommended against them?
edges of those rules, or deliberately break them to make a point -
Winston withdraws from the Chamber with pride - he has made the point
he wishes to make. The rules are also not immutable - they have
changed over time, and probably need to change further. As I have
pointed out, cultural differences can be very important, and to deny
freedom of expression / Freedom of Speech is now resisted by most
political parties, although they may not express it in those terms. If
it is acceptable to have a Maori ceremonial of a waiata on some
occasions, why is that not regarded as being against the rules - it is
not mentioned, therefore is under the control of the Speaker, or
ultimately a vote of the house, who also appoint a Privileges
Committee, which in this case appears to have gone a little beyond
their brief . . .
Now you start to be abusive - just the usual Rich rudeness starting when he is shown to be wrong.
No amount of cultural context is a reason to escape the consequences
of breaking the rules.
So you do not believe in Freedom of Expression or Free Speech - that
appears to be more your problem than that of parliament . . .
Just another lie. Repeating it does not make it true.Time was that both Labour and National would at least assert that they >represented all New Zealanders, whether Maori, Pakeha, or immigrants.
In respect of Maori representation in Parliament there are plenty of
Maori in Parliament representing non-Maori political parties. When the >>Maori seats were created and retained, it was inconceivable that any
Maori would be elected without an exclusive electoral roll for Maori
seats. That is no longer the case.
Sadly the National Party seem to have withdrawn from that view as they
have allowed themselves to be pressured to draw back from complying
with the Treaty of Waitangi.
The most obvious practitioners of cultural performance would be Peters >>>>>and Jones of the Winston First party - Winston has mastered the art of >>>>>insulting others through rhetoric and the ability to define himself >>>>>with whatever arguments he needs to try to dominate the stage; calling >>>>>on his cultural heritage with whichever mix of Maori, Scottish and >>>>>pure self-interest as best suits at the time. He can waste more of the >>>>>time of parliament than any other single politician, and is backed by >>>>>his good mate Shane in putting donors ahead of policy. He accepts that >>>>>being asked to leave for a short period is a price for staying in the >>>>>news.
Luxon is still like a fish out of water, and has not learned very >>>>>much beyond trying to give himself time to think through starting >>>>>statements with "I would say to you" or similar - somehow it never >>>>>helps. He tries to be away as often as possible. Other National Party >>>>>MPs tend to pursue slogans - they know that the policy is business >>>>>first, workers too expensive and "Tough on Crime" - they have spent >>>>>all they can afford on helping donors and are happy with the pay . . . >>>>>
Labour generally address issues directly, but suffer from the ability >>>>>of the government to avoid questions and cut debate short if it is not >>>>>going their way - poor Brownlee is often happy to move on when Labour >>>>>put Ministers into trouble.
Cultural performances do change over time though, and parliament needs >>>>>to understand that this is at times necessary, and that both voters >>>>>and MPs have different cultural priorities. The overreach of Crusher >>>>>with the Privileges Committee was embarrassing to the Government - >>>>>they had no real argument against the speech Hipkins gave as to why >>>>>they had it wrong, so tobacco funded Chris Bishop shut it down very >>>>>quickly - to the surprise of Brownlee and nearly everyone else - a >>>>>mild over-ride of standing orders but he got away with it; National >>>>>knew they had no adequate defense.
So theatre and playing the game are a major part of parliament - they >>>>>all perform; and the performance by TPM was fully justified by the >>>>>extremism of the government parties in allowing ACT to have put >>>>>forward such a divisive bill that breaks the old National Party pride >>>>>in honouring contracts, perhaps especially because it almost certainly >>>>>goes again wise public sector advice - although any such advice will >>>>>not be released . . .
How a party represents those who voted for them is up to each party, >>>>>but they all know that they need to first gain attention and secondly >>>>>get their arguments through if they are to retain and increase votes. >>>>>there is little point in trying to make up silly rules just to suit >>>>>the governing parties - all rules are pushed to the limit by all >>>>>parties when necessary for their fundamental purpose - to represent >>>>>those that have voted for them and those they want to vote for them at >>>>>the next election. TPM have both the right and the obligation to >>>>>represent those that voted for them - and they did that effectively >>>>>recently, in a form that is more widely understood now that it was a >>>>>few years ago.
The speech by Chris Hipkins covered the issues well - if National >>>>>could accept that they were not winning the argument with the public, >>>>>perhaps he got it right, and National were left being played by the >>>>>ACT Party - again!
The lies that it prevented voting and that it included a threat of a >>>>>>>>> gunshot are laughable, as video evidence shows. It was an effective >>>>>>>>> protest which will have been welcomed by those that support Te Maori >>>>>>>>> Pati - the reaction to it will have alienated the National, ACT and >>>>>>>>> even NZ First from many who may otherwise have had some sympathies for
those parties - it was a ceremonial dance that sent a challenge and a >>>>>>>>> display of cultural pride, and certainly not a physical threat or >>>>>>>>> intimidation. Most karakea in parliament are welcomed; parliament >>>>>>>>> needs to be prepared to accept differences in cultural expression - it
is part of free speech. Clearly a bit of time is needed for some MPs >>>>>>>>> to recognise that we are a New Zealand Parliament, not a British >>>>>>>>> parliament, and that our parliament needs to accept that our different
cultural mix does need to be recognised - certainly for Maori to be >>>>>>>>> consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but also other racial and social
groups that now form a significant part of our New Zealand culture.
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