• Headline:

    From Joy Beeson@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 28 19:52:00 2023
    Headline in the financial section:

    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.

    --
    Joy Beeson
    joy beeson at centurylink dot net
    http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Joy Beeson on Sat Oct 28 21:34:14 2023
    On 10/28/23 7:52 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
    Headline in the financial section:

    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.


    Hopefully we won't reach the point of spending all our money at
    lunchtime before it gets even more inflated in the evening.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Charles Packer@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sun Oct 29 07:10:23 2023
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 21:34:14 -0400, Gary McGath wrote:

    On 10/28/23 7:52 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
    Headline in the financial section:

    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.


    Hopefully we won't reach the point of spending all our money at
    lunchtime before it gets even more inflated in the evening.

    I doubt that conscious awareness of inflation enters into
    consumer spending decisions in any significant way.

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Charles Packer on Sun Oct 29 07:23:44 2023
    On 10/29/23 3:10 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 21:34:14 -0400, Gary McGath wrote:

    On 10/28/23 7:52 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
    Headline in the financial section:

    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.


    Hopefully we won't reach the point of spending all our money at
    lunchtime before it gets even more inflated in the evening.

    I doubt that conscious awareness of inflation enters into
    consumer spending decisions in any significant way.

    During the Weimar hyperinflation, people did exactly what I said.

    I don't know whether the knowledge that money in the bank at 0.1%
    interest will be worth less in a year affects people's current spending decisions, but it certainly takes away an incentive to save.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to mailbox@cpacker.org on Sun Oct 29 13:21:44 2023
    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 21:34:14 -0400, Gary McGath wrote:
    On 10/28/23 7:52 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
    Headline in the financial section:

    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.


    Hopefully we won't reach the point of spending all our money at
    lunchtime before it gets even more inflated in the evening.

    I doubt that conscious awareness of inflation enters into
    consumer spending decisions in any significant way.

    It may for very large expenditures, but certainly not for small items.
    Back in the seventies, though, when there was far higher inflation,
    it did enter into spending decisions for small items and that made
    economic problems even worse.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid on Sun Oct 29 13:19:30 2023
    Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
    Headline in the financial section:

    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.

    Unless it's supposed to mold, of course.

    The thing is that much of what people buy is stuff that they don't
    really need at all. And in spite of modest inflation, they are still
    buying just as much of it.

    How many books does one person really need? Probably not as many as
    I have, and yet I bought another eight books this weekend.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Sun Oct 29 20:39:11 2023
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
    Headline in the financial section:
    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.

    Right. It's my understanding that the government aims at a non-zero
    inflation rate to encourage spending and discourage saving.

    The thing is that much of what people buy is stuff that they don't
    really need at all. And in spite of modest inflation, they are
    still buying just as much of it.

    True. But would we be better off if nobody bought anything they
    didn't really need? We could all live like Puritans, but our lives
    would be less full of stuff and experiences. And of course those who
    make, ship, and sell the stuff would be worse off. When England made
    that experiment, after fighting a war to abolish the monarchy, within
    about a decade they overthrew the Puritans and restored the monarchy.
    They even sewed the head back on the king they had beheaded, and
    beheaded Cromwell (who had died of natural causes years earlier).

    How many books does one person really need? Probably not as many as
    I have, and yet I bought another eight books this weekend.

    Define "need." People need food, water, warmth, and air. Most people throughout history never owned any books at all, and many of them
    lived long and interesting lives.

    You'll be pleased that I didn't buy any books this weekend. I had
    planned to buy perhaps 20 at a used book sale at a local library,
    despite most of my books being in storage. (I moved this summer, into
    a smaller space, and had to put more than a hundred boxes of books,
    each weighing around 50 pounds, into a self-storage unit for which
    I'm paying hundreds of dollars a month in perpetuity.) But the only
    reason I didn't buy any books this weekend is that rain was expected.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 29 15:44:18 2023
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 07:10:23 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 21:34:14 -0400, Gary McGath wrote:

    On 10/28/23 7:52 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
    Headline in the financial section:

    Consumers Keep Spending Brislky Despite Persistent Inflation

    What's with this "despite"? When you find that the cheese in your
    fridge is starting to mold, you don't save it for later.


    Hopefully we won't reach the point of spending all our money at
    lunchtime before it gets even more inflated in the evening.

    I doubt that conscious awareness of inflation enters into
    consumer spending decisions in any significant way.

    Mostly true, when it's less than 10% or so. They do, however, when
    it's over 100%. The inflation rate the Fed is trying to reduce, at
    the moment, is something like 4%. But it's be at less than 1% for so
    long that people are panicking over that.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Tim Merrigan on Sun Oct 29 22:50:06 2023
    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    The inflation rate the Fed is trying to reduce, at the moment, is
    something like 4%. But it's be at less than 1% for so long that
    people are panicking over that.

    I don't think it has ever been less than 1% in our lifetime, at least
    not for more than a year or two at a time.

    For instance 50 years ago a copy of the Washington Post cost 10 cents.
    Today it costs $3. That's an average inflation rate of about 7%.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 29 17:09:34 2023
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 16:55:06 -0700, Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 22:50:06 -0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch" ><kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    The inflation rate the Fed is trying to reduce, at the moment, is
    something like 4%. But it's be at less than 1% for so long that
    people are panicking over that.

    I don't think it has ever been less than 1% in our lifetime, at least
    not for more than a year or two at a time.

    For instance 50 years ago a copy of the Washington Post cost 10 cents. >>Today it costs $3. That's an average inflation rate of about 7%.

    The last 50 years includes the late '70s double digit inflation. Also,
    50 years ago the Washington Post, like most newspapers, made most of
    their money from advertising, and sold the paper at a loss, some
    smaller papers even giving them away.

    Note: 50 years ago was 1973, the year I graduated High School.

    BTW according to >https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/

    Annual inflation rates over the last ten years were:

    2013: 1.5%
    2014: 0.8%
    2015: 0.7%
    2016: 2.1%
    2017: 2.1%
    2018: 1.9%
    2019: 2.3%
    2020: 1.4%
    2021: 7.0%
    2022: 6.5%
    2023 to date: 3.7%

    For a 10 year mean of 3%, mode of 7%, and median of 2% (if I
    calculated the median correctly).

    So, yeah, it only went below 1% for 2 years, but for 7 years it was
    below 3%. I think 2% is the Fed's goal.

    Sorry, I misunderstood what the mode is. It should be corrected to
    2.1%, if I now understand it correctly.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
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    www.avg.com

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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to kfl@KeithLynch.net on Sun Oct 29 16:55:06 2023
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 22:50:06 -0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
    <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    The inflation rate the Fed is trying to reduce, at the moment, is
    something like 4%. But it's be at less than 1% for so long that
    people are panicking over that.

    I don't think it has ever been less than 1% in our lifetime, at least
    not for more than a year or two at a time.

    For instance 50 years ago a copy of the Washington Post cost 10 cents.
    Today it costs $3. That's an average inflation rate of about 7%.

    The last 50 years includes the late '70s double digit inflation. Also,
    50 years ago the Washington Post, like most newspapers, made most of
    their money from advertising, and sold the paper at a loss, some
    smaller papers even giving them away.

    Note: 50 years ago was 1973, the year I graduated High School.

    BTW according to https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/

    Annual inflation rates over the last ten years were:

    2013: 1.5%
    2014: 0.8%
    2015: 0.7%
    2016: 2.1%
    2017: 2.1%
    2018: 1.9%
    2019: 2.3%
    2020: 1.4%
    2021: 7.0%
    2022: 6.5%
    2023 to date: 3.7%

    For a 10 year mean of 3%, mode of 7%, and median of 2% (if I
    calculated the median correctly).

    So, yeah, it only went below 1% for 2 years, but for 7 years it was
    below 3%. I think 2% is the Fed's goal.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 29 17:25:09 2023
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 17:09:34 -0700, Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 16:55:06 -0700, Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 22:50:06 -0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch" >><kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    The inflation rate the Fed is trying to reduce, at the moment, is
    something like 4%. But it's be at less than 1% for so long that
    people are panicking over that.

    I don't think it has ever been less than 1% in our lifetime, at least
    not for more than a year or two at a time.

    For instance 50 years ago a copy of the Washington Post cost 10 cents. >>>Today it costs $3. That's an average inflation rate of about 7%.

    The last 50 years includes the late '70s double digit inflation. Also,
    50 years ago the Washington Post, like most newspapers, made most of
    their money from advertising, and sold the paper at a loss, some
    smaller papers even giving them away.

    Note: 50 years ago was 1973, the year I graduated High School.

    BTW according to >>https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/

    Annual inflation rates over the last ten years were:

    2013: 1.5%
    2014: 0.8%
    2015: 0.7%
    2016: 2.1%
    2017: 2.1%
    2018: 1.9%
    2019: 2.3%
    2020: 1.4%
    2021: 7.0%
    2022: 6.5%
    2023 to date: 3.7%

    For a 10 year mean of 3%, mode of 7%, and median of 2% (if I
    calculated the median correctly).

    So, yeah, it only went below 1% for 2 years, but for 7 years it was
    below 3%. I think 2% is the Fed's goal.

    Sorry, I misunderstood what the mode is. It should be corrected to
    2.1%, if I now understand it correctly.

    And recalculating the median, after rearranging the data points into
    ascending order, it should be 2.1%, the fifth and sixth values both
    being 2.1%, as opposed to taking the 2 middle values as presented,
    making the fifth and sixth values 2.1 and 1.9, respectively.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Tim Merrigan on Tue Oct 31 01:36:05 2023
    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    BTW according to https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/

    Annual inflation rates over the last ten years were:

    2013: 1.5%
    2014: 0.8%
    2015: 0.7%
    2016: 2.1%
    2017: 2.1%
    2018: 1.9%
    2019: 2.3%
    2020: 1.4%
    2021: 7.0%
    2022: 6.5%
    2023 to date: 3.7%

    For a 10 year mean of 3%, mode of 7%, and median of 2% (if I
    calculated the median correctly).

    If I assume 2023 -- which is about 5/6 over -- will remain at 3.7%,
    then at the end of 2023, the mean will be 2.7%, the mode will be 2.1%,
    and the median will be 2.1%.

    The mode isn't really meaningful in this context; it's 2.1% only
    because that's the only number that appears more than once.

    But there are lots of different means. There's a different power mean
    for each real number. You raise every element to the Nth power, take
    the average, and take the Nth root of the result. Where N=1 you have
    the usual average, called the arithmetic mean. N=2 is called the
    quadratic mean, or Root-Mean- Square (RMS). The RMS is useful for
    measuring AC voltage, as X volts RMS AC has much the same effect
    as X volts DC. N=0 (or rather the limit as N approaches 0) is the
    geometric mean, so called because the geometric mean of the sides
    of a rectangle gives the same area as a square whose sides are the
    geometric mean. It's useful for finding the average of an exponential distribution. For instance one minute is the geometric mean of one
    second and one hour. N=-1 is the harmonic mean, useful when averaging
    speeds. The harmonic mean of your speeds is the constant speed that
    would give you the same trip duration. It's also useful in finding
    equivalent resistances when you have resistors in parallel.

    Then there's the arithmetic-geometric mean (AGM), in which you take
    both of those two kinds of means of a pair of numbers, then repeat the
    process with the resulting pair of means, ad infinitum. The two means
    converge very rapidly. This is useful, not for actually averaging
    data, but for rewriting formulas in terms of an AGM to get rapid
    convergence. That's how it's possible to calculate trillions of
    digits of pi, for instance. If you tried to use one of the simpler
    formulas for pi, such as 4/1 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 - 4/11 + ...
    you'd be lucky to get a dozen digits after weeks on a supercomputer.

    "Mode" is the most common value. For some distributions, there are
    two or more modes. Or every value is different, so you have to decide
    on bin sizes, i.e. make an arbitrary choice of how close values have
    to be to be considered equal.

    "Median" is the value in the middle once the list is sorted in
    numerical order. It's useful if there are outliers. For instance if
    Elon Musk were to move to your small town, the average net worth of
    its inhabitants would increase enormously.

    ObFandom: Someone once humorously suggested that the fairest way to
    weigh votes on future Worldcon locations is to average all of the
    locations voted for. But it was pointed out that if just one joker
    votes for another solar system, even if it's the closest one, and even
    if 20,000 people voted for somewhere on Earth, the average would be
    well outside our solar system. The median would make more sense here.
    Or rather the epicenter of the median, since the median would probably
    be deep underground. If the epicenter is in an ocean or other body of
    water, the closest point of dry land would be used.

    So which kind of mean is best for averaging inflation rates? Assuming
    that by "average" you want the constant inflation rate that would have
    resulted in the same price increase, then none that I've mentioned
    will do. You want to turn them into price ratios by dividing them by
    100 and adding 1, i.e. 1.015, 1.008, 1.007, 1.021, 1.021, 1.019, 1.023
    1.014, 1.070, 1.065, 1.037, then taking the geometric mean by multiplying
    them together to get about 1.34, then taking the 11th root of the result.
    Or, equivalently, take the log of 1.34, divide it by 11, then take the
    antilog of the result. You'll get 1.027, or 2.7%. That happens to be
    close to the arithmetic mean, but it didn't have to be.

    A separate issue is that I don't trust any of these official
    statistics. I know how my spending has varied, and it has gone up
    much more than that (ignoring rent, since I've moved twice since
    2013), even though I live increasingly frugally. As for rent, I just
    looked up the apartment complex where I lived in 2013, and the lowest
    rent for any unit in that complex is 72% more than what I was paying
    in 2013. That's more than *twice* the official 34%.

    Many of my favorite foods have more than doubled in price since 2013,
    even though I'm still living in the same general area and still
    shopping in the same stores. Metrorail fares have also more than
    doubled, even as Metrorail service has become much worse.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

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