• Re: Who's got the worst transit?

    From James Nicoll@21:1/5 to garym@mcgath.com on Tue Jan 16 17:14:53 2024
    In article <uo6clk$1hd7g$1@dont-email.me>,
    Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
    Keith is always bragging that the DC metro is the worst in the USA, but >Boston is giving it strong competition.

    The MBTA, or T, has four train lines that are subways in Boston; they're >called the Red, Green, Blue, and Orange Lines. (There's also a Silver
    Line, which isn't actually a line but several disjoint express bus
    routes.) As of today, only the Blue Line would get you into downtown
    Boston, and it's the shortest of the four lines, going from downtown to
    a little way up the North Shore.

    https://www.universalhub.com/2024/whats-going-dtx-t-seems-under-big-hex

    Surely, no transit is worse than bad transit, so all the cities and
    towns without are worse off than either DC or Boston?



    --
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 16 11:59:31 2024
    Keith is always bragging that the DC metro is the worst in the USA, but
    Boston is giving it strong competition.

    The MBTA, or T, has four train lines that are subways in Boston; they're
    called the Red, Green, Blue, and Orange Lines. (There's also a Silver
    Line, which isn't actually a line but several disjoint express bus
    routes.) As of today, only the Blue Line would get you into downtown
    Boston, and it's the shortest of the four lines, going from downtown to
    a little way up the North Shore.

    https://www.universalhub.com/2024/whats-going-dtx-t-seems-under-big-hex

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to James Nicoll on Tue Jan 16 17:23:50 2024
    On 1/16/24 12:14 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
    In article <uo6clk$1hd7g$1@dont-email.me>,
    Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
    Keith is always bragging that the DC metro is the worst in the USA, but
    Boston is giving it strong competition.

    The MBTA, or T, has four train lines that are subways in Boston; they're
    called the Red, Green, Blue, and Orange Lines. (There's also a Silver
    Line, which isn't actually a line but several disjoint express bus
    routes.) As of today, only the Blue Line would get you into downtown
    Boston, and it's the shortest of the four lines, going from downtown to
    a little way up the North Shore.

    https://www.universalhub.com/2024/whats-going-dtx-t-seems-under-big-hex

    Surely, no transit is worse than bad transit, so all the cities and
    towns without are worse off than either DC or Boston?

    Most towns are too small to support a rail transit system, including the
    one I live in. If there's no transit system, people know it and will
    plan their commute accordingly; if they rely on its promises and it
    fails them, they're screwed.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to garym@mcgath.com on Tue Jan 16 23:32:59 2024
    Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
    Keith is always bragging that the DC metro is the worst in the USA, but >Boston is giving it strong competition.

    The Boston system is far worse.

    DC is having a lot of problems right now because they are trying to clean
    up after years of deferred maintenance. This is difficult since the system
    is designed with lines going in and out of downtown but no ring routes.
    So if you close one section of track, you basically put half the route out
    of service completely. It's not like the NY or Paris systems where it is possible to shut down one track and just send passengers on a different
    route to the same place.

    So the repairs that DC is doing are affecting people more severely than
    they would normally. And a lot of them are repairs that should have been
    done years ago but weren't because of the impact of shutting anything down.

    DC still has plenty of problems. They still have union issues, they still haven't got their 1970s vintage automation system working properly again,
    and they still have plenty of track issues. But DC is on the upswing,
    even if it's not as sharp as one might like. People are out there doing
    track maintenance again instead of sitting by the tracks in Metro uniforms
    with crackpipes.

    But Boston... Boston doesn't seem to be doing actual repairs. And they
    have the same issues of having a system designed to get people in and out
    of the city with no rings. In Boston stuff is really just falling apart.

    Interestingly enough, the Boston light rail system, which ALSO has no rings,
    is actually doing pretty well and seems to have really good reliability statistics.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to James Nicoll on Tue Jan 16 23:35:11 2024
    James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
    Surely, no transit is worse than bad transit, so all the cities and
    towns without are worse off than either DC or Boston?

    Good public transit is used by everyone, rich and poor. It reduces the
    number of cars on the road.

    Bad public transit is used only by the people who have no choice but to
    use public transit. People who have the opportunity to drive will do so
    in preference to taking public transit. Now you have cars AND busses on
    the road.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Wed Jan 17 01:15:35 2024
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
    Keith is always bragging that the DC metro is the worst in the USA,
    but Boston is giving it strong competition.

    I never said the DC Metro system was the worst in the US. How could I
    even know that?

    ObFandom: Indeed, I once posted here that I went to Ravencon in
    Richmond by taking Greyhound to downtown then walking to the con hotel
    at the airport. That walk took five hours. There was a city bus I
    could have taken instead of walking, but it would have taken even
    longer. Now *that's* a bad transit system.

    What I have done is debunked effusive praise of the DC Metro system,
    which invariably came from people far from DC, or at least from those
    who never used the system.

    What might be special about DC Metro is the extraordinarily low ratio
    of usable service to money spent. The system is a black hole that
    sucks in dollars from all over the US and produces nothing in return
    but faint Hawking radiation, i.e. occasionally when everything goes
    right it's actually faster to ride than to walk. Whenever that
    happens, I'm tempted to report it to the police, given that their PA
    system, when it's working, constantly announces that you should report
    anything unusual.

    I'm speaking of the Metrorail system. The Metrobus system, run by
    the same organization, WMATA, is so bad that lots of local governments
    have established their own bus systems, including Fairfax Connector,
    Arlington Transit, OmniRide, CUE, DASH, OmniLink, George, Ride On, The
    Bus, Jitney Bus, DC Circulator, and TransIT. Some of these work well,
    but of course don't typically cross county or state lines. (The DC
    area comprises DC proper, Montgomery and PG counties in Maryland,
    Arlington and Fairfax counties in Virginia, and the independent cities
    of Fairfax, Falls Church, and Alexandria in Virginia.)

    DC is having a lot of problems right now because they are trying to
    clean up after years of deferred maintenance.

    What year are you posting from? They first used that excuse more
    than 20 years ago. They then started intensive maintenance that made
    large sections of the rail system completely unusable for months at a
    time, but which never seemed to make anything better. This intensive maintenance *never* *ended*. It's still going on. Every year or two
    they pull a Groundhog Day and use the exact same excuse, i.e. that
    they are about to "start" intensive maintenance since maintenance had
    been totally neglected since the system was first built.

    There are track fires that have suffocated passengers to death. The
    new 6000 series of train cars had a problem with cars uncoupling while
    trains were in motion. The even newer 7000 series of train cars has a
    problem with wheels coming loose and sliding along the axles, causing derailments. They never even *tried* to figure out why that was
    happening. (Some things were never meant for man to know.) Instead,
    they do frequent, intensive, and expensive inspections of all 7000
    series rail cars to see whether the wheels have come loose again.

    The first part of the Silver Line opened in 2014, *decades* late.
    Just six years later they shut it down for the whole summer for
    intensive maintenance and rebuilding. The second part of the Silver
    Line opened in 2022. It turned out to have rotten concrete. Instead
    of tearing out and fixing it at the expense of those responsible, they
    decided to just coat it to keep water out, figuring that that would
    probably work well enough. Of course the coating wears off with time,
    so frequent intensive inspections will be necessary in perpetuity.

    It's not a transportation system, it's a jobs & grift program. And
    a fetish object for politicians to pose in front of while boasting of
    how green they are for giving billions of dollars of other people's
    money to the system. It can sometimes be used as a slow and
    inefficient form of transportation, but that's like defending Bitcoin
    based on at-home Bitcoin mining being a good way to heat one's house,
    or like saying that kinky boots designed specifically for porn videos
    are useful for hiking in.

    There's a myth that ridership dropped during the pandemic. Well,
    it did, but the implication that it was highest just before that is
    wrong. It peaked in 2008, even though most of the money spent on
    the system has been spent since then, and even though the system
    has more stations and track miles than ever before.

    One of the worst things about the system is all the lies. Lies often
    seemingly designed to inconvenience passengers and taxpayers as much
    as possible. For instance Metro has promised to stay open late during
    major sports events, only to close at the usual time, stranding tens
    of thousands of sports fans. Gotcha!

    "Stesseling" means for an official to tell lies so outrageous that
    nobody is expected to believe them, but they had better pretend to
    believe them if they know what's good for them. It's apparently done
    mostly as a show of power. It's named for Metro's former spokesman,
    Dan Stessel, who was notorious for this.

    I remember one line that was shut down for more than a month just for installation of cell phone service in the tunnel. They used that
    excuse twice, a couple years apart, for the same line.

    And now Metro is once again saying that they need subsidy increases
    far in excess of inflation, or they will be forced to close half the
    stations, run trains only during peak commuting hours, and run only
    one or two trains per hour on each line.

    DC still has plenty of problems. They still have union issues,

    Indeed. Driving a Metro train is so simple that any child tall enough
    to see through the windshield can do it. (I have a copy of their
    manual.) But their drivers, janitors, etc., make six-figure salaries.
    Even the ones who work only in Virginia, even though Virginia is a
    "right to work" state (i.e. no closed (union members only) shops).

    I'm not anti-union, but unions shouldn't be allowed to hold America
    hostage. Truman, a Democrat, broke the steel union. Reagan, a
    Republican, broke the air traffic controllers union. I think it's
    time to break the transit union. Fire everyone and replace them
    with the chronically unemployed. They couldn't do any worse.

    they still haven't got their 1970s vintage automation system working
    properly again, and they still have plenty of track issues.

    Indeed. After a fatal collision due to that system malfunctioning,
    they "temporarily" shut it down and went to manual control (which
    has resulted in lots of minor injuries when the train suddenly jerks
    back into motion immediately after stopping at a station, just as
    passengers are starting to stand up, as the driver discovers the train
    isn't in quite the right place.

    That malfunction was 15 years ago, and it's still shut down. It took
    less time to put a man on the moon.

    And some escalators have taken even longer than that to repair. They
    then have a major photo op around the repaired escalators, as if it
    was one of mankind's greatest achievements. Often, shortly after
    the last reporters pack up their cameras and notebooks and leave,
    it breaks down again, as defunct as the grandfather clock in the
    old poem.

    I have no college degree. I was falsely convicted of a felony.
    But what finally forced me into early retirement was the increasing unreliability of Metro. Similarly with tens of thousand of other
    people in the greater DC area.

    Even Metro employees aren't expected to ride it. The new Metro
    headquarters building, in downtown DC near all six Metrorail lines,
    has four levels of parking. How else can they be expected to get
    to work?
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

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  • From WolfFan@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Wed Jan 17 00:02:53 2024
    On Jan 16, 2024, Gary McGath wrote
    (in article <uo6clk$1hd7g$1@dont-email.me>):

    Keith is always bragging that the DC metro is the worst in the USA, but Boston is giving it strong competition.

    Neither Boston nor DC are even in the top (bottom?) five. Here in Deepest
    South Florida we have TriRail. TriRail is called that because it services
    (oh, yeah...) the tri-county area: Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach.
    TriRail runs one, and only one, line right down the coast. Dade has another rail service which links to TriRail and goes west and then south. A little.

    We also have Brightline. Brightline starts in Miami, at the TriRail station which links with Dade’s boondoggle, and heads up the coast on the same line that TriRail uses. It then turns west for Orlando. The real purpose is to
    link Orlando with Miami. Note that the cruise ship piers are close to the
    Miami TriRail station. Dusney owns some cuise ships which operate out of the cruise ship piers. Disney owns a lot of stuff in Orlando; you may have
    vaugely heard of their operation. Brightline stops at several TriRail
    stations on the way from Miami to Orlando. By sheerest co-incidence one of
    the stops is conveniently close to the Seminole Indian’s Scalp The Paleface Operation... that is to the Seminole Hard Rock Casino. Amazing how that
    works.

    Amtrak runs down the same lines as TriRail and Brightline, except Amtrak doesn’t turn west for Orlando, it just heads north to irrelevance. Amtrak stops at many of the stations that TriRail and Brightline use. The track is single, not, repeat, NOT, double tracked.

    The West Palm Beach Station, used by TriRail, Brightline, and Amtrak, is deep in the worst part of town. It’s a bad idea to park your car there, you probably won’t find it when you come back. And that’s despite the close
    and loving attention that the station gets from the West Palm Beach Police (West Palm Police HQ is about two miles east of the station) and the Palm
    Beach County Sheriff’s Office (PBSO HQ is about five miles west) and at
    least three different Federal LEOs (the Federal Building is half a mile from West Palm Police HQ; the Border cops and ICE are have an annex at Palm Beach International Airport, just north of PBSO HQ). All I have to say is that someone once stole a marked Riveria Beach Police car from the West Palm train station parking lot.

    Let’s just say that despite the tricounty's population (Dade is about 2.7 million, Broward 1.9 million, Palm Beac 1.7 million) ridership is not high. Each county has a bus service. The buses are not numerous, and some stop near the train stations. As there is no track network, just a single TriRail line, if you use pub;ilic transport you will be using the bus or taxi/iber/lyft/whatever.

    The track runs close to I-95 for a good bit of its run through Palm Beach County. It is possible, when not at rush hour, to drive faster than a TriRail train runs; guess how I know. (TriRail is much faster during rush hour, of course)

    It’s more efficient to use your car. It really is. Especially if you’re going somewhere more than a few miles from the coast.


    The MBTA, or T, has four train lines that are subways in Boston; they're called the Red, Green, Blue, and Orange Lines. (There's also a Silver
    Line, which isn't actually a line but several disjoint express bus
    routes.) As of today, only the Blue Line would get you into downtown
    Boston, and it's the shortest of the four lines, going from downtown to
    a little way up the North Shore.

    https://www.universalhub.com/2024/whats-going-dtx-t-seems-under-big-hex

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Wed Jan 17 09:54:33 2024
    On 1/16/24 8:15 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    I'm speaking of the Metrorail system. The Metrobus system, run by
    the same organization, WMATA, is so bad that lots of local governments
    have established their own bus systems, including Fairfax Connector, Arlington Transit, OmniRide, CUE, DASH, OmniLink, George, Ride On, The
    Bus, Jitney Bus, DC Circulator, and TransIT. Some of these work well,
    but of course don't typically cross county or state lines.

    Oddly, the bus service in the town where I live does cross state lines.
    It's based in the neighboring city of Haverhill, Mass., and riding is
    free. However, the nearest bus stop is over a mile away, so I haven't
    found a reason to use it yet. It could be useful if my car is ever in an extended stay for repairs, since walking one mile to the bus stop is
    better than four miles to downtown Haverhill.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Jeff Jonas@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 21 01:17:06 2024
    ... Here in Deepest South Florida we have TriRail.

    I used TriRail to & from
    FLL (Ft Lauderdale airport) and Boca Raton (Yamato Road)
    for only $5. Then a $15 Uber to my parents' place.
    Vs. $100+ for an airport car service.
    The trains were on time and just fine.
    Yes, I had to use a connecting bus to the airport (free)
    but things really did connect.

    We also have Brightline.

    Sadly, those grade level crossings are in the news often
    for the gruesome collisions with Darwin Award winners
    who drive around the gates.

    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to Jeff Jonas on Wed Feb 21 15:18:38 2024
    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, Jeff Jonas wrote:

    ... Here in Deepest South Florida we have TriRail.

    I used TriRail to & from
    FLL (Ft Lauderdale airport) and Boca Raton (Yamato Road)
    for only $5. Then a $15 Uber to my parents' place.
    Vs. $100+ for an airport car service.
    The trains were on time and just fine.
    Yes, I had to use a connecting bus to the airport (free)
    but things really did connect.

    We also have Brightline.

    Sadly, those grade level crossings are in the news often
    for the gruesome collisions with Darwin Award winners
    who drive around the gates.

    In sweden I saw in the news that the mid- and long-range trains where on
    time only 82% of the time last year.

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Wed Feb 21 14:50:07 2024
    In article <e87dac41-2924-0fb5-346d-1a9fca1114d7@example.net>,
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, Jeff Jonas wrote:

    ... Here in Deepest South Florida we have TriRail.

    I used TriRail to & from
    FLL (Ft Lauderdale airport) and Boca Raton (Yamato Road)
    for only $5. Then a $15 Uber to my parents' place.
    Vs. $100+ for an airport car service.
    The trains were on time and just fine.
    Yes, I had to use a connecting bus to the airport (free)
    but things really did connect.

    We also have Brightline.

    Sadly, those grade level crossings are in the news often
    for the gruesome collisions with Darwin Award winners
    who drive around the gates.

    In sweden I saw in the news that the mid- and long-range trains where on
    time only 82% of the time last year.

    That's better than Amtrak. And I bet that the ones that were late were only late by minutes rather than days.

    Sweden, though, is starting to get some competition to the SJ, though.
    I wound up riding MTRX from Stockholm out to Gothenburg last year and
    then FlixTrain back and I was vaguely amused by the SJ staff's attitude
    toward the new outfits muscling in on their territory. I do think that competition is the key to getting better service.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Wed Feb 21 12:33:57 2024
    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 15:18:38 +0100, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:



    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, Jeff Jonas wrote:

    ... Here in Deepest South Florida we have TriRail.

    I used TriRail to & from
    FLL (Ft Lauderdale airport) and Boca Raton (Yamato Road)
    for only $5. Then a $15 Uber to my parents' place.
    Vs. $100+ for an airport car service.
    The trains were on time and just fine.
    Yes, I had to use a connecting bus to the airport (free)
    but things really did connect.

    We also have Brightline.

    Sadly, those grade level crossings are in the news often
    for the gruesome collisions with Darwin Award winners
    who drive around the gates.

    In sweden I saw in the news that the mid- and long-range trains where on
    time only 82% of the time last year.

    Isn't it something like that for Amtrak?
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Wed Feb 21 22:55:14 2024
    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    In article <e87dac41-2924-0fb5-346d-1a9fca1114d7@example.net>,
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, Jeff Jonas wrote:

    ... Here in Deepest South Florida we have TriRail.

    I used TriRail to & from
    FLL (Ft Lauderdale airport) and Boca Raton (Yamato Road)
    for only $5. Then a $15 Uber to my parents' place.
    Vs. $100+ for an airport car service.
    The trains were on time and just fine.
    Yes, I had to use a connecting bus to the airport (free)
    but things really did connect.

    We also have Brightline.

    Sadly, those grade level crossings are in the news often
    for the gruesome collisions with Darwin Award winners
    who drive around the gates.

    In sweden I saw in the news that the mid- and long-range trains where on
    time only 82% of the time last year.

    That's better than Amtrak. And I bet that the ones that were late were only late by minutes rather than days.

    Sweden, though, is starting to get some competition to the SJ, though.
    I wound up riding MTRX from Stockholm out to Gothenburg last year and
    then FlixTrain back and I was vaguely amused by the SJ staff's attitude toward the new outfits muscling in on their territory. I do think that competition is the key to getting better service.
    --scott

    True. I'm not a train aficionado so how does it work with all these
    companies? After all, they all use the same track so how do they benefit
    the consumer?

    When it comes to how delayed I don't have any statistics. This winter
    though had some -40 C days in northern sweden that killed all traffic due
    to safety concerns. You don't want to have a broken car or train anywhere
    when it's -40 C.

    As for me, the best train service I ever had in sweden, was when I by
    mistake ended up in the same train wagon as the ministers in the
    government a decade ago. Everything was free, everyone was polite,
    lightning quick service. I had no idea until I saw almost all government ministers sitting around me.

    I have no idea how I made it in there and why no one said anything, but
    such is life!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Wed Feb 21 23:56:07 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    True. I'm not a train aficionado so how does it work with all these >companies? After all, they all use the same track so how do they benefit
    the consumer?

    If one is to believe Adam Smith, people will in the end pick the service
    which best suits them, whether that is the cheapest ticket, the train
    with the best alcoholic beverages, or the train that is most often on
    time. In the end this results in the service that most pleases the most people, as other competitors begin to provide whatever it is that people
    want in order to match them.

    Unfortunately what I want is not always what other people want, so I do
    not always find competition as effective as I might like.

    When it comes to how delayed I don't have any statistics. This winter
    though had some -40 C days in northern sweden that killed all traffic due
    to safety concerns. You don't want to have a broken car or train anywhere >when it's -40 C.

    The only train I want to be on when it is -40 C is the train out of there, possibly the one going to the Riviera.

    As for me, the best train service I ever had in sweden, was when I by
    mistake ended up in the same train wagon as the ministers in the
    government a decade ago. Everything was free, everyone was polite,
    lightning quick service. I had no idea until I saw almost all government >ministers sitting around me.

    I have no idea how I made it in there and why no one said anything, but
    such is life!

    I am impressed that your ministers would take the train in the first place. This is a sign of a government that eats its own dog food and I wish more
    did that.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 21 19:08:38 2024
    On 2/21/24 4:55 PM, D wrote:

    As for me, the best train service I ever had in sweden, was when I by
    mistake ended up in the same train wagon as the ministers in the
    government a decade ago. Everything was free, everyone was polite,
    lightning quick service. I had no idea until I saw almost all government ministers sitting around me.

    I have no idea how I made it in there and why no one said anything, but
    such is life!

    I can guess. The conductors didn't dare question anyone's presence in
    the car, since they might be challenging a VIP who'd forgotten their
    ticket and could cause lots of trouble if annoyed. The ministers assumed
    you must be someone's secret guest and didn't ask questions for the same reason. Ironically, that made it easy for anyone to sneak aboard.

    Just a guess, though.
    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Thu Feb 22 09:49:58 2024
    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, Gary McGath wrote:

    On 2/21/24 4:55 PM, D wrote:

    As for me, the best train service I ever had in sweden, was when I by
    mistake ended up in the same train wagon as the ministers in the government >> a decade ago. Everything was free, everyone was polite, lightning quick
    service. I had no idea until I saw almost all government ministers sitting >> around me.

    I have no idea how I made it in there and why no one said anything, but
    such is life!

    I can guess. The conductors didn't dare question anyone's presence in the car, since they might be challenging a VIP who'd forgotten their ticket and could cause lots of trouble if annoyed. The ministers assumed you must be someone's secret guest and didn't ask questions for the same reason. Ironically, that made it easy for anyone to sneak aboard.

    Just a guess, though.

    You are probably right. Fun experience though! =)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Thu Feb 22 09:48:31 2024
    On Thu, 21 Feb 2024, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    True. I'm not a train aficionado so how does it work with all these
    companies? After all, they all use the same track so how do they benefit
    the consumer?

    If one is to believe Adam Smith, people will in the end pick the service which best suits them, whether that is the cheapest ticket, the train
    with the best alcoholic beverages, or the train that is most often on
    time. In the end this results in the service that most pleases the most people, as other competitors begin to provide whatever it is that people
    want in order to match them.


    Sounds to me like, as you say, they can only compete on "extras" or price. Since they are all using the same track, I would expect punctuality to be
    about the same for most of them unless on company bought crappy trains
    from the start.

    Unfortunately what I want is not always what other people want, so I do
    not always find competition as effective as I might like.

    This happens to me with TV-shows and small coffee shops run and owned by individuals. I enjoy when the coffee shop owner sees me entering and asks
    me "the usual". Sadly that shop closed. =(

    When it comes to how delayed I don't have any statistics. This winter
    though had some -40 C days in northern sweden that killed all traffic due
    to safety concerns. You don't want to have a broken car or train anywhere
    when it's -40 C.

    The only train I want to be on when it is -40 C is the train out of there, possibly the one going to the Riviera.

    Agreed!

    As for me, the best train service I ever had in sweden, was when I by
    mistake ended up in the same train wagon as the ministers in the
    government a decade ago. Everything was free, everyone was polite,
    lightning quick service. I had no idea until I saw almost all government
    ministers sitting around me.

    I have no idea how I made it in there and why no one said anything, but
    such is life!

    I am impressed that your ministers would take the train in the first place. This is a sign of a government that eats its own dog food and I wish more
    did that.
    --scott

    Well, I wouldn't be so quick to draw any conclusions from one trip. There
    have been plenty of joy-riding in the government jet as well, but
    _generally_ I've seen politicians from time to time ride on regular trains
    and regular planes. Come to think of it, I sat behind a member of the parliament once and she was talking with an old woman about democracy and
    it was interesting to hear some insider stories. A colleague of mine once
    sat next to the ex-minister of state (a socialist) and took great delight
    in telling him how much he disagreed with him and how bad he thought he
    did his job. The result was two grumpy men sitting in ice cold silence the
    rest of the trip.

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  • From rkshullat@rosettacondot.com@21:1/5 to Tim Merrigan on Sat Feb 24 13:46:37 2024
    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 15:18:38 +0100, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:



    On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, Jeff Jonas wrote:

    ... Here in Deepest South Florida we have TriRail.

    I used TriRail to & from
    FLL (Ft Lauderdale airport) and Boca Raton (Yamato Road)
    for only $5. Then a $15 Uber to my parents' place.
    Vs. $100+ for an airport car service.
    The trains were on time and just fine.
    Yes, I had to use a connecting bus to the airport (free)
    but things really did connect.

    We also have Brightline.

    Sadly, those grade level crossings are in the news often
    for the gruesome collisions with Darwin Award winners
    who drive around the gates.

    In sweden I saw in the news that the mid- and long-range trains where on >>time only 82% of the time last year.

    Isn't it something like that for Amtrak?

    For 2022, 79% for the northeast corridor, 44% for their long distance trains. My wife is getting ready to take the California Zephyr...that one was 25%. Delay is predominantly due to the freight lines that own the track and take priority.

    Robert
    --
    Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to rkshullat@rosettacondot.com on Sat Feb 24 16:13:27 2024
    <rkshullat@rosettacondot.com> wrote:
    Delay is predominantly due to the freight lines that own the track and take >priority.

    Yes, I regularly ride what used to be the Tidewater Flyer that goes between Newport News and Boston. Washington DC is the point at which you go from Norfolk Southern to Amtrak tracks, and if you make it up there in time you
    will be on time getting into points north. This is, however, very unlikely
    and once you're late into DC you may have to wait behind other Amtrak trains
    as well.

    I occasionally meet Europeans on the train who are angry and frustrated at
    the train being late and want to know if they can get their money back. I
    tell them that it is a remarkable event worth celebrating when the train is actually on time.

    A friend of mine used to try and ride the train up to BWI in order to catch airline flights. She missed more than she caught.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Dorsey on Sat Feb 24 16:23:00 2024
    In article <urd4j7$jnh$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:


    I occasionally meet Europeans on the train who are angry and
    frustrated at
    the train being late and want to know if they can get their money
    back. I
    tell them that it is a remarkable event worth celebrating when the
    train is
    actually on time.

    Used to be German trains were known for their punctuality but last year I
    took the train from London to Vienna. The return trip from Vienna to Frankfurt, the train was very late. One of the DB staff on board
    actually gave me a form to fill in for compensation. It didn't seem
    worth the effort for me, as all I had to do in Frankfurt was walk a
    couple of hundred metres to my hotel, and it wasn't that late in the
    evening when I arrived.

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Sat Feb 24 16:42:32 2024
    Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
    Used to be German trains were known for their punctuality but last year I >took the train from London to Vienna. The return trip from Vienna to >Frankfurt, the train was very late. One of the DB staff on board
    actually gave me a form to fill in for compensation. It didn't seem
    worth the effort for me, as all I had to do in Frankfurt was walk a
    couple of hundred metres to my hotel, and it wasn't that late in the
    evening when I arrived.

    Did they blame it on those lazy Austrians?
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Sat Feb 24 13:16:15 2024
    On 2/24/24 11:23 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
    Used to be German trains were known for their punctuality but last year I took the train from London to Vienna. The return trip from Vienna to Frankfurt, the train was very late. One of the DB staff on board
    actually gave me a form to fill in for compensation. It didn't seem
    worth the effort for me, as all I had to do in Frankfurt was walk a
    couple of hundred metres to my hotel, and it wasn't that late in the
    evening when I arrived.

    My experience is similar. When I made my first trips to Germany, around
    the turn of the century, service was excellent. Last year, trying to get
    from Buchholz (a suburb about 25 km out) to Hamburg, the train was
    seriously delayed, I had to switch tracks, and the train unexpectedly terminated one stop short of Hamburg because too many trains were queued
    up trying to get to the Hauptbahnhof, so I had to change trains again.
    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Sat Feb 24 21:00:07 2024
    On Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    <rkshullat@rosettacondot.com> wrote:
    Delay is predominantly due to the freight lines that own the track and take >> priority.

    Yes, I regularly ride what used to be the Tidewater Flyer that goes between Newport News and Boston. Washington DC is the point at which you go from Norfolk Southern to Amtrak tracks, and if you make it up there in time you will be on time getting into points north. This is, however, very unlikely and once you're late into DC you may have to wait behind other Amtrak trains as well.

    I occasionally meet Europeans on the train who are angry and frustrated at the train being late and want to know if they can get their money back. I tell them that it is a remarkable event worth celebrating when the train is actually on time.

    A friend of mine used to try and ride the train up to BWI in order to catch airline flights. She missed more than she caught.
    --scott

    That reminds me of when I was in japan last october. We missed a train due
    to a late bus, and I went to the ticket office and asked if we could
    rebook to the next train. I expected a flat "no" since we were the ones
    who were late, but apparently it was not a problem at all, so we were
    giving new tickets on the next available train. I wonder if that is the
    default policy or if they just wanted to get rid of the tourists? ;)

    Best regards,
    Daniel

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sat Feb 24 21:02:21 2024
    On Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Gary McGath wrote:

    On 2/24/24 11:23 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
    Used to be German trains were known for their punctuality but last year I
    took the train from London to Vienna. The return trip from Vienna to
    Frankfurt, the train was very late. One of the DB staff on board
    actually gave me a form to fill in for compensation. It didn't seem
    worth the effort for me, as all I had to do in Frankfurt was walk a
    couple of hundred metres to my hotel, and it wasn't that late in the
    evening when I arrived.

    My experience is similar. When I made my first trips to Germany, around the turn of the century, service was excellent. Last year, trying to get from Buchholz (a suburb about 25 km out) to Hamburg, the train was seriously delayed, I had to switch tracks, and the train unexpectedly terminated one stop short of Hamburg because too many trains were queued up trying to get to the Hauptbahnhof, so I had to change trains again.


    Based on witness statements from germans I work with, the trains in
    germany have gotten a lot worse the last couple of years.

    The same is also true for sweden. Trains have gotten much worse the past decade.

    My nr 1 prize goes to japan. Amazing train experience!

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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 25 15:27:00 2024
    In article <urdbpf$1aolq$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:

    and the train unexpectedly
    terminated one stop short of Hamburg because too many trains were
    queued up trying to get to the Hauptbahnhof,

    Reminds me of my trip to Helsinki in 2017 for the Worldcon. I was
    planning to spend the night in Hamburg and when I heard the announcement
    that we were at Hamburg, I got off the train. However, I had been to
    Hamburg before and knew that the Hauptbahnhof was a large, enclosed
    building and I was in the open air. It was a suburban station on the
    outskirts and I had just enough time to get back on board to complete my journey.

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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sun Feb 25 15:27:00 2024
    In article <5cfb2b4c-4a77-f9f8-55ef-a8e41eca0557@example.net>, nospam@example.net (D) wrote:

    I wonder if that is the
    default policy or if they just wanted to get rid of the tourists? ;)

    That has been my experience with European trains too, in general.
    Travelling to and from Helsinki both going and returning, I missed my connections at Copenhagen and had no problem getting a later train. Mind
    you, the return journey involved a five-hour wait in Copenhagen on a
    Friday night. It was Gay Pride week and lots of colourful people were
    going clubbing. Ended up getting into Hamburg at five in the morning.
    My hotel had even kept my room for me.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Sun Feb 25 18:27:05 2024
    On Sun, 25 Feb 2024, Paul Dormer wrote:

    In article <5cfb2b4c-4a77-f9f8-55ef-a8e41eca0557@example.net>, nospam@example.net (D) wrote:

    I wonder if that is the
    default policy or if they just wanted to get rid of the tourists? ;)

    That has been my experience with European trains too, in general.
    Travelling to and from Helsinki both going and returning, I missed my connections at Copenhagen and had no problem getting a later train. Mind you, the return journey involved a five-hour wait in Copenhagen on a
    Friday night. It was Gay Pride week and lots of colourful people were
    going clubbing. Ended up getting into Hamburg at five in the morning.
    My hotel had even kept my room for me.


    Ahh, so maybe that is the default behaviour! A point in favour of the
    train instead of the plane!

    I do wish europe had international high speed trains though, of the same caliber and reliability as the japanese! =(

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Sun Feb 25 17:12:01 2024
    On 2/25/24 10:27 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <urdbpf$1aolq$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:

    and the train unexpectedly
    terminated one stop short of Hamburg because too many trains were
    queued up trying to get to the Hauptbahnhof,

    Reminds me of my trip to Helsinki in 2017 for the Worldcon. I was
    planning to spend the night in Hamburg and when I heard the announcement
    that we were at Hamburg, I got off the train. However, I had been to
    Hamburg before and knew that the Hauptbahnhof was a large, enclosed
    building and I was in the open air. It was a suburban station on the outskirts and I had just enough time to get back on board to complete my journey.

    I bet it was Hamburg-Harburg. That can be confusing.
    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 26 11:54:00 2024
    In article <urgdvh$23t3j$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:

    I bet it was Hamburg-Harburg. That can be confusing.

    Sounds plausible.

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