In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally
Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal") >betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned >withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more
territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions.
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the >traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too
many of his predecessors have been.
Adam H. Kerman
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
Adam H. Kerman
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the >>traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but >>money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
Neither the U.S. nor Europe were going to put boots on the ground, outside
of training personnel and some special forces types but I was listening to >NPR yesterday and they had Khrushchev's granddaughter on (she's a
professor of foreign relations here in the U.S.) and she was suggesting
that maybe the bizarre scene we saw in the Oval Office on Friday, was
cooked up by Trump and Zelensky (both with experience in the
entertainment industry) as a way of forcing European powers to take
a more active/primary role in the war?
Because obviously Ukraine would never sign a deal where they're not given
ANY security guarantees, as this would mean the Russians would simply >reinvade at a future date and take over the whole country and without the >U.S. on board, Europe will leave Ukraine swinging in the wind (as was the >case in the Yugoslav civil war).
Adam H. Kerman
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the
traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
Neither the U.S. nor Europe were going to put boots on the ground, outside
of training personnel and some special forces types but I was listening to >NPR yesterday and they had Khrushchev's granddaughter on (she's a
professor of foreign relations here in the U.S.) and she was suggesting
that maybe the bizarre scene we saw in the Oval Office on Friday, was
cooked up by Trump and Zelensky (both with experience in the
entertainment industry) as a way of forcing European powers to take
a more active/primary role in the war?
Because obviously Ukraine would never sign a deal where they're not given
ANY security guarantees, as this would mean the Russians would simply >reinvade at a future date and take over the whole country and without the >U.S. on board, Europe will leave Ukraine swinging in the wind (as was the >case in the Yugoslav civil war).
On Tue, 04 Mar 2025 18:27:49 GMT, Ed Stasiak <user1263@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the >>> traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
Neither the U.S. nor Europe were going to put boots on the ground, outside >> of training personnel and some special forces types but I was listening to >> NPR yesterday and they had Khrushchev's granddaughter on (she's a
professor of foreign relations here in the U.S.) and she was suggesting
that maybe the bizarre scene we saw in the Oval Office on Friday, was
cooked up by Trump and Zelensky (both with experience in the
entertainment industry) as a way of forcing European powers to take
a more active/primary role in the war?
There's no way that Trump is that strategic. I would love it if he
were but he's never shown any sign of thinking like that.
Also his blowing up the way he did is exactly what one would expect from him when confronted.
Because obviously Ukraine would never sign a deal where they're not given
ANY security guarantees, as this would mean the Russians would simply
reinvade at a future date and take over the whole country and without the
U.S. on board, Europe will leave Ukraine swinging in the wind (as was the
case in the Yugoslav civil war).
I truly believe Trump thought he could get Ukraine to the table
without that guarantee.
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally Ukraine,
Ed Stasiak <user1263@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the
traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
Neither the U.S. nor Europe were going to put boots on the ground, outside >>of training personnel and some special forces types but I was listening to >>NPR yesterday and they had Khrushchev's granddaughter on (she's a
professor of foreign relations here in the U.S.) and she was suggesting >>that maybe the bizarre scene we saw in the Oval Office on Friday, was >>cooked up by Trump and Zelensky (both with experience in the
entertainment industry) as a way of forcing European powers to take
a more active/primary role in the war?
There's no way that Trump is that strategic. I would love it if he
were but he's never shown any sign of thinking like that.
Ed Stasiak <user1263@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the
traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
Neither the U.S. nor Europe were going to put boots on the ground, outside >> of training personnel and some special forces types but I was listening to >> NPR yesterday and they had Khrushchev's granddaughter on (she's a
professor of foreign relations here in the U.S.) and she was suggesting
that maybe the bizarre scene we saw in the Oval Office on Friday, was
cooked up by Trump and Zelensky (both with experience in the
entertainment industry) as a way of forcing European powers to take
a more active/primary role in the war?
If Trump proves to have a strategy, that would be a wonderful
development.
I'm not going to disagree that European cowardice in standing up to
Russia post-Soviet Union largely contributed to Ukraine's predicament.
Because obviously Ukraine would never sign a deal where they're not given
ANY security guarantees, as this would mean the Russians would simply
reinvade at a future date and take over the whole country and without the
U.S. on board, Europe will leave Ukraine swinging in the wind (as was the
case in the Yugoslav civil war).
You're right.
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally
Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal") betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more
territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions.
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too
many of his predecessors have been.
On 2025-03-04 12:02 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally
Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal")
betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned
withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more
territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions.
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the
traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too
many of his predecessors have been.
I'm really disappointed too. One of my friends seems to think that this
is all part of some brilliant plan to make Europe take care of itself militarily and maybe even put the Russians and Chinese at odds with one another but I'm not seeing that as a likely outcome yet. Independent
analysts seem all over the map in trying to make this make sense. The
MSM and its Democratic masters despise Trump so their reactions are
entirely expected.
I was really hoping Trump was going to squeeze Putin and aid Ukraine,
which is clearly the victim of Putin's unprovoked aggression and has
fought valiantly to push the Russians out.
I'm reminded of Finland's defense of its borders in 1939-40 when Stalin invaded. They fought valiantly for 3 months but got very little aid from
the West so had to give up when the Red Army proved too powerful. (They fought two further wars concurrent with WW2 and had to give up some land
but Stalin didn't conquer the whole country and wipe it out of
existence, one of the few times Stalin was less evil than usual.)
Back to the present, Zelenskyy has expressed his regret for the
kerfuffle in the Oval Office - which seemed like a two-way street to me
- and says he's ready to co-operate with Trump and sign the minerals
deal. I wonder if that will mollify Trump?
On 3/4/2025 4:59 PM, Rhino wrote:
On 2025-03-04 12:02 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally
Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal")
betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned
withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more
territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions. >>>
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the >>> traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too
many of his predecessors have been.
I'm really disappointed too. One of my friends seems to think that this
is all part of some brilliant plan to make Europe take care of itself
militarily and maybe even put the Russians and Chinese at odds with one
another but I'm not seeing that as a likely outcome yet. Independent
analysts seem all over the map in trying to make this make sense. The
MSM and its Democratic masters despise Trump so their reactions are
entirely expected.
I was really hoping Trump was going to squeeze Putin and aid Ukraine,
which is clearly the victim of Putin's unprovoked aggression and has
fought valiantly to push the Russians out.
I'm reminded of Finland's defense of its borders in 1939-40 when Stalin
invaded. They fought valiantly for 3 months but got very little aid from
the West so had to give up when the Red Army proved too powerful. (They
fought two further wars concurrent with WW2 and had to give up some land
but Stalin didn't conquer the whole country and wipe it out of
existence, one of the few times Stalin was less evil than usual.)
Back to the present, Zelenskyy has expressed his regret for the
kerfuffle in the Oval Office - which seemed like a two-way street to me
- and says he's ready to co-operate with Trump and sign the minerals
deal. I wonder if that will mollify Trump?
Who was the last U.S. President who might've needed "mollifying"? LBJ?
Note, though, that Trump seems to respond well to penitent ring-kissers.
Hell, he even made one V.P. Maybe Zelenskyy's just in Phase 1...
On Mar 4, 2025 at 2:23:10 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 3/4/2025 4:59 PM, Rhino wrote:
On 2025-03-04 12:02 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally
Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal") >>>> betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned
withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more
territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions. >>>>
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the >>>> traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being >>>> held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but >>>> money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too >>>> many of his predecessors have been.
I'm really disappointed too. One of my friends seems to think that this >>> is all part of some brilliant plan to make Europe take care of itself
militarily and maybe even put the Russians and Chinese at odds with one >>> another but I'm not seeing that as a likely outcome yet. Independent
analysts seem all over the map in trying to make this make sense. The
MSM and its Democratic masters despise Trump so their reactions are
entirely expected.
I was really hoping Trump was going to squeeze Putin and aid Ukraine,
which is clearly the victim of Putin's unprovoked aggression and has
fought valiantly to push the Russians out.
I'm reminded of Finland's defense of its borders in 1939-40 when Stalin >>> invaded. They fought valiantly for 3 months but got very little aid from >>> the West so had to give up when the Red Army proved too powerful. (They >>> fought two further wars concurrent with WW2 and had to give up some land >>> but Stalin didn't conquer the whole country and wipe it out of
existence, one of the few times Stalin was less evil than usual.)
Back to the present, Zelenskyy has expressed his regret for the
kerfuffle in the Oval Office - which seemed like a two-way street to me >>> - and says he's ready to co-operate with Trump and sign the minerals
deal. I wonder if that will mollify Trump?
Who was the last U.S. President who might've needed "mollifying"? LBJ?
Note, though, that Trump seems to respond well to penitent ring-kissers.
Hell, he even made one V.P. Maybe Zelenskyy's just in Phase 1...
Reagan
On 3/4/2025 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Mar 4, 2025 at 2:23:10 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 3/4/2025 4:59 PM, Rhino wrote:
On 2025-03-04 12:02 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally >>>>> Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal") >>>>> betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned >>>>> withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more >>>>> territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions.
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the
traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being >>>>> held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but >>>>> money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too >>>>> many of his predecessors have been.
I'm really disappointed too. One of my friends seems to think that this >>>> is all part of some brilliant plan to make Europe take care of itself >>>> militarily and maybe even put the Russians and Chinese at odds with one >>>> another but I'm not seeing that as a likely outcome yet. Independent >>>> analysts seem all over the map in trying to make this make sense. The >>>> MSM and its Democratic masters despise Trump so their reactions are >>>> entirely expected.
I was really hoping Trump was going to squeeze Putin and aid Ukraine, >>>> which is clearly the victim of Putin's unprovoked aggression and has >>>> fought valiantly to push the Russians out.
I'm reminded of Finland's defense of its borders in 1939-40 when Stalin >>>> invaded. They fought valiantly for 3 months but got very little aid from
the West so had to give up when the Red Army proved too powerful. (They >>>> fought two further wars concurrent with WW2 and had to give up some land
but Stalin didn't conquer the whole country and wipe it out of
existence, one of the few times Stalin was less evil than usual.)
Back to the present, Zelenskyy has expressed his regret for the
kerfuffle in the Oval Office - which seemed like a two-way street to me >>>> - and says he's ready to co-operate with Trump and sign the minerals >>>> deal. I wonder if that will mollify Trump?
Who was the last U.S. President who might've needed "mollifying"? LBJ? >>>
Note, though, that Trump seems to respond well to penitent ring-kissers. >>> Hell, he even made one V.P. Maybe Zelenskyy's just in Phase 1...
Reagan
Your memory of Reagan may be more detailed than mine, as I don't recall
even speculation about his "hurt feelings".
LBJ, otoh, provokes this
from PBS:
"Johnson was a man possessed by inner demons. From early in his
childhood he manifested character traits that shaped his behavior
throughout his life. As a boy and a man he suffered from a sense of emptiness: he couldn't stand to be alone; he needed constant
companionship, attention, affection, and approval."
On 3/4/2025 4:59 PM, Rhino wrote:
On 2025-03-04 12:02 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally
Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal")
betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned
withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more
territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions.
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the
traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but
money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too
many of his predecessors have been.
I'm really disappointed too. One of my friends seems to think that
this is all part of some brilliant plan to make Europe take care of
itself militarily and maybe even put the Russians and Chinese at odds
with one another but I'm not seeing that as a likely outcome yet.
Independent analysts seem all over the map in trying to make this make
sense. The MSM and its Democratic masters despise Trump so their
reactions are entirely expected.
I was really hoping Trump was going to squeeze Putin and aid Ukraine,
which is clearly the victim of Putin's unprovoked aggression and has
fought valiantly to push the Russians out.
I'm reminded of Finland's defense of its borders in 1939-40 when
Stalin invaded. They fought valiantly for 3 months but got very little
aid from the West so had to give up when the Red Army proved too
powerful. (They fought two further wars concurrent with WW2 and had to
give up some land but Stalin didn't conquer the whole country and wipe
it out of existence, one of the few times Stalin was less evil than
usual.)
Back to the present, Zelenskyy has expressed his regret for the
kerfuffle in the Oval Office - which seemed like a two-way street to
me - and says he's ready to co-operate with Trump and sign the
minerals deal. I wonder if that will mollify Trump?
Who was the last U.S. President who might've needed "mollifying"? LBJ?
Note, though, that Trump seems to respond well to penitent ring-kissers.
Hell, he even made one V.P. Maybe Zelenskyy's just in Phase 1...
On 2025-03-04 5:23 PM, moviePig wrote:
On 3/4/2025 4:59 PM, Rhino wrote:So your theory is that Trump is the only president ever that insisted on people deferring to him? If so, you really are a maroon.
On 2025-03-04 12:02 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
In the grand American tradition, Trump has betrayed our major ally
Ukraine, similar to the way Biden (implementing Trump's phony "deal")
betrayed our allies -- hell, our own civilians -- in that unplanned
withdrawal from Afghanistan. This would be the withdrawal Trump
criticized Biden for over the last four years.
Putin is now emboldened to threaten more of Europe and to grab more
territory as he knows the United States will not contain his ambitions. >>>>
Regardless of whether the United States had an interest in Ukraine, the >>>> traditional enemy for the last century and a decade Russia was being
held at bay in a terrible war of attrition, We were spending money but >>>> money is cheaper than putting our own soldiers' lives at risk.
I keep waiting for Trump not to be the same terrible president all too >>>> many of his predecessors have been.
I'm really disappointed too. One of my friends seems to think that
this is all part of some brilliant plan to make Europe take care of
itself militarily and maybe even put the Russians and Chinese at odds
with one another but I'm not seeing that as a likely outcome yet.
Independent analysts seem all over the map in trying to make this
make sense. The MSM and its Democratic masters despise Trump so their
reactions are entirely expected.
I was really hoping Trump was going to squeeze Putin and aid Ukraine,
which is clearly the victim of Putin's unprovoked aggression and has
fought valiantly to push the Russians out.
I'm reminded of Finland's defense of its borders in 1939-40 when
Stalin invaded. They fought valiantly for 3 months but got very
little aid from the West so had to give up when the Red Army proved
too powerful. (They fought two further wars concurrent with WW2 and
had to give up some land but Stalin didn't conquer the whole country
and wipe it out of existence, one of the few times Stalin was less
evil than usual.)
Back to the present, Zelenskyy has expressed his regret for the
kerfuffle in the Oval Office - which seemed like a two-way street to
me - and says he's ready to co-operate with Trump and sign the
minerals deal. I wonder if that will mollify Trump?
Who was the last U.S. President who might've needed "mollifying"? LBJ?
Note, though, that Trump seems to respond well to penitent ring-
kissers. Hell, he even made one V.P. Maybe Zelenskyy's just in
Phase 1...
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
as a way of forcing European powers to take a more active/primary
role in the war?
If Trump proves to have a strategy, that would be a wonderful development.
One of Trump's issues with Europe is that they aren't carrying their
weight militarily and have relied on the U.S. throughout the entire Cold
War to protect them and the fact is that all the "nice stuff" Europe
has that the Left-Dems are always praising such as socialized medicine, >efficient public transportation, 30+ paid vacation days, etc. is because
the U.S. carried the ball for 50 years.
Trump may be (pretty much is) a jackass but one thing he's not is a
war monger.
He got us out of Afghanistan after 20 years and bazillions of dollars pissed >away for zero return and despite the arm twisting by Israel, he refused to go >to war with Iran on their behalf (and it probably cost him his reelection).
The Biden administration (and Kamala would have done the same) and Europe
had _no fucking plan_ for the Ukraine-Russia war;
just keep dumping money
and guns in there while Ukrainians died trying to retake some irrelevant >shithole
village (that had already been destroyed several times over) in a WWI style >stalemate war with no end in sight.
That shit had to stop.
Ukraine won't have a country once they stop fighting. Let's not kid >ourselves. There will be no peace with Putin because Europe refuses to >contain him.
I'm reminded of Finland's defense of its borders in 1939-40 when Stalin >invaded. They fought valiantly for 3 months but got very little aid from
the West so had to give up when the Red Army proved too powerful. (They >fought two further wars concurrent with WW2 and had to give up some land
but Stalin didn't conquer the whole country and wipe it out of
existence, one of the few times Stalin was less evil than usual.)
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 546 |
| Nodes: | 16 (0 / 16) |
| Uptime: | 170:49:51 |
| Calls: | 10,385 |
| Calls today: | 2 |
| Files: | 14,057 |
| Messages: | 6,416,559 |