XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 20:27:34 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:22:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:

Victor H. wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:

Michael Pendragon wrote:

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.

What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination, >>> Pendragon.

Says the

No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please

Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.

HTH and HAND.

Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?

You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.

It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age),

You're wrong about Cassady's age.

See below.

as nothing in the actual poems specifies

this.

IIRC, the poem was a sexually explicit depiction of a homosexual Dom-Sub
BDSM session, presented in a strikingly crude manner, and is not
something I have any desire to reread. I am not being prudish or
anything; I just don't find the topic interesting.

The "please, Master" exchanges between the Dom and Sub in the poem's
monologue, are (IMHO intentionally) reminiscent of an apprentice (a boy
aged 10-16) and a much older master craftsman in a given art or trade.
This recasts the narrative, at least on one level, as a depiction of
Man-Boy sex.

--

I haven't looked in a while but Neal Cassady was almost the same age as
Allen Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac.

You should fact check a little better, Harry.

I've no interest in Beat poets, and even less in who they fucked.

The implications of adult-child/master-apprentice sex in the poem remain
the same regardless of who inspired it.

--

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XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:08:51 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:22:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:

Victor H. wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:

Michael Pendragon wrote:

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.

What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination, >>> Pendragon.

Says the

No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please

Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.

HTH and HAND.

Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?

You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.

It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age), as nothing in the actual poems specifies
this.

Wrong again, Harry.

Allen Ginsberg and Neal Cassady were both born in 1926.

<Crickets continue as Harry Lime continues to ignore this correction.>

I have already addressed it, Donkey. Here is what I wrote:

I'm not talking about the history, Donkey. So there's no need to keep repeating yourself.

The poem does not mention Neal Cassady's name. It is addressed to
someone known only as "Master." The poem is therefore not about Neal
Cassady.

This doesn't mean that the poem wasn't *inspired by* Ginsberg's
relationship with Cassady.

A poem is composed of words. A proper reading of a poem must confine
itself solely to the words. If the poem doesn't mention Neal Cassady,
then you cannot say that the poem is about Ginsberg's relationship with Cassady.

The poem is about a "Master" and IIRC an unidentified speaker.

Approaching the poem on its own terms, I read it as depicting the
homosexual BDSM relationship between a Dom and a Sub. I also read it as hinting at a relationship between a Master and his Apprentice. Both
readings are justified by the poem's text, and both can easily be seen
to coexist.

Any critical reading of the poem will necessarily pick up on the Man-Boy/Master-Apprentice/Sub-Dom implications, and draw the same
conclusions as myself.

I'm glad to learn that Cassady and Ginsberg were roughly the same age.
Good for them.

The poem, otoh, is still strongly implying a Man-Boy relationship.

[END QUOTE]

This statement appears in *this* thread. Had you not been in such a
tizzy (firing off a half dozen posts in a row), you might have actually
seen it.

--

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XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 8:21:53 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:38:26 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:08:51 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:22:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:

Victor H. wrote:
Will Dockery wrote:

Michael Pendragon wrote:

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote: >>>>>>>
Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.

What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination,

Pendragon.

Says the

No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please

Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man. >>>>>>>

HTH and HAND.

Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?

You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.

It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age), as nothing in the actual poems specifies
this.

Wrong again, Harry.

Allen Ginsberg and Neal Cassady were both born in 1926.

<Crickets continue as Harry Lime continues to ignore this correction.>

The poem does not mention Neal Cassady's name. It is addressed to
someone known only as "Master." The poem is therefore not about Neal
Cassady.

This doesn't mean that the poem wasn't *inspired by* Ginsberg's
relationship with Cassady.

As if is said to be.

A poem is composed of words. A proper reading of a poem must confine
itself solely to the words. If the poem doesn't mention Neal Cassady,
then you cannot say that the poem is about Ginsberg's relationship with
Cassady.

Beat poetry experts have stated this is a fact, and Allen Ginsberg may
have possibly revealed this as well.

It's as if we're speaking two different languages. I'm speaking
English. Perhaps Dr. Schwimmer can translate for you.

The poem is about a "Master" and IIRC an unidentified speaker.

Approaching the poem on its own terms, I read it as depicting the
homosexual BDSM relationship between a Dom and a Sub. I also read it as
hinting at a relationship between a Master and his Apprentice. Both
readings are justified by the poem's text, and both can easily be seen
to coexist.

Any critical reading of the poem will necessarily pick up on the
Man-Boy/Master-Apprentice/Sub-Dom implications, and draw the same
conclusions as myself.

I'm glad to learn that Cassady and Ginsberg were roughly the same age.
Good for them.

Yes, glad to clear up your confusion.

The poem, otoh, is still strongly implying a Man-Boy relationship.

[END QUOTE]

This statement appears in *this* thread

Yes, I found it earlier.

--

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