XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments, alt.poetry

On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 23:04:32 +0000, NancyGene wrote:

On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 5:06:55 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 3:11:13 +0000, NancyGene wrote:

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 22:34:22 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 7:36:06 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 7:11:59 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 2:38:29 +0000, WillnDockery wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 14:22:48 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:13:25 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 12:01:28 +0000, NancyGene wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 6:33:52 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:56:27 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 3:04:47 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 2:31:12 +0000, NancyGene wrote:

"The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley 1945 - 1975" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://www.imghippo.com/i/gJIH8498pOk.jpg - Title page >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.imghippo.com/i/QhcG5616is.jpg - Index of Titles and First
Lines, pp. 664-665

There is no poem listed called "The Days Pile Up," and there is no first
line of "The days pile up like unread newspapers," >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Your move, George Dance. The other book of Mr. Creeley's poems is at:
https://dokumen.pub/the-collected-poems-of-robert-creeley-19752005-9780520941670.html
No "The Days Pile Up" in there either. You are either a liar or know not
what you do.

Well, thank you for finding the volume that HarryLiar lied about giving
a link to. If it's in any /Collected Poems/ volume, that would be the
one. There's no sense in my downloading the file at this point. >>>>>>>>>>

We have had the link (and access to the book) since we started looking
for the phantom poem. The poem is not in that book (or any other book).

I was given the information on the poem by a trusted source; >>>>>>>>>> Was the trusted source your wife or your daughter? We don't think that

anyone else might read these messages. Were they trying to protect you
against us? If so, they did considerable harm.

but given
this claim of yours that it doesn't appear in [/Collected Poems of
Robert
Creeley 1945 - 1975/], and Creeley's claim (quoted on Amazon) that that
[book contains everything he published up till 1975,] I think I'll have
to wait till the
copy I ordered on Amazon is in my hands and I can see for myself if it's
actually in that book or not. I don't see any reason to make a move
until then, so you'll just l have to wait.

We posted pictures of the title page and the index. Do you think that
the physical book will show anything different?

Since it will take me longer to receive the book than it would take you,
I've asked Will to not give the group any information on it. I've read

??? Mr. Dockery has no information on it. We already have the book. >>>>>>>>>>

HarryLiar's made-up stories about why Will won't tell you the name of
the book, so I think it's best for me to tell you that much at least.

Mr. Dance, why don't you drop the silly name-calling? If anyone in this
thread is a liar, it is not Michael or us.

Well put, George.

Thanks for the kind words, Will, but on rereading I see the second >>>>>>>>>>> paragraph wasn't well-put at all, and needs a serious rewrite. Let me
add it in here so that (I hope) I'll just be able to paste it in if >>>>>>>>>>> NastyGoon can't understand what I'm saying.

We perfectly understand what you are saying. You are trying to cover
your ass.

I was given the information on the poem by a trusted source; but given
this claim of yours that it doesn't appear in /Collected Poems, >>>>>>>>>>> 1945-1975/ plus Creeley's claim (quoted on Amazon) that that book >>>>>>>>>>> contains everything he published up until 1975, I think I'll have to
wait till the copy I ordered on Amazon is in my hands and I can see for
myself if it's actually in the book I ordered or not. I don't see a >>>>>>>>>>> reason to make any "move" till then, so you'll just have to wait. >>>>>>>>>>

It's up to you, but we will expect a full apology from you and Mr. >>>>>>>>>> Dockery for calling us a "plagiarist" and "second hander." We write our
own poetry and have no need to plagiarize anyone else's.

--

Of course, I wrote a very similar opening line back in 1976 that has >>>>>>>>> been visible online for at least a decade, and I hadn't seen the Robert
Creeley poem either, "The seconds have piled up at the floor..." >>>>>>>>>
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=256444&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments#256444

***

Shattered

The seconds have piled up
at the floor
lost here in some other guy's past
lying there
with your seconds piled
there went by a life
untold
unasked
going by
never caused and never traced
the future never ever appears here.

If some morning I wake
here for you
trying to find some reason to return
if I see things denied
I once defined
a life just passed me by there
slipped through my fingers
everything here now is real
so wait.
That portion of the finish
never comes.

Now that the lights are going so low
the dimming glow
falls on my ego
now that I'm falling
into my morning
here I am gazing into those
reflector eyes
morning light
is blasting my head clean too.
Morning's clearer
I've been forgetting it.

Your thoughts seem to stream
like a highway
dimming lights seem to streak
like hitch-hikers.
When does this dream end?
When do I get on up the road?
The light sped out
like a fire-fly
like gravestones
never noticed
never seen.
Like marbles
spilling from shattered minds.

-Will Dockery / August 20 1976

***
(Published March 1977 in the Carverlite, the Carver High School >>>>>>>>>> newspaper, Columbus Georgia)

From:
https://shadowville-mythos.blogspot.com/2023/09/shattered.html?m=1 >>>>>>>>>
***

I didn't accuse you of borrowing my line, but they are very similar >>>>>>>>> opening lines.

No, they really aren't. "Time piles up" is a common expression >>>>>>>> -- as are more specific variations like "seconds pile up," "minutes pile
up," "hours pile up," "days pile up," "weeks pile up," "months pile up,"
etc.

Not to mention the fact that "at the floor" is just bad English. The >>>>>>>> seconds would pile up *on* the floor, not *at* it.

We have never heard of seconds being on or at or under a floor.

It's kind of a metaphor. Yes, it would have been better if the seconds
had piled up *like* something... but at least the Donkey's making an
effort to be "poetic."

That's a joke, right?

It is and it isn't.

He's giving physical attributes to an abstraction. Due to the speaker's emotionally shattered state, the seconds take on a physical reality to
him. That's the *start* of a poetic idea. That's the first poetic
lungfish crawling out of the water onto the shore.

Of course a good poet would explain what those physical attributes are
(or are like) and would make their relationship to the speaker's
feelings clear. But Will is not a good poet. Will is an extremely bad
poet. IMHO he is the single worst poet who's ever lived. And any step
toward something resembling poetry on his part deserves to be applauded.

--

After some thought and discussion with my editor, I agree.

Although it doesn't matter at this point, the change in my poem was >>>>>>> actually made by /another/ editor nearly fifty years ago, for the first >>>>>>> publication in my high school newspaper:

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/15ndUbyxDi/

In my original typed manuscript I had written:

"The seconds have piled up on the floor, lost here in some other guy's >>>>>>> past."

But somewhere during the fancy typesetting, artwork and whatnot, my >>>>>>> friend and editor Michael Ehrhart changed "on" to "at" and his overall >>>>>>> job was so dazzling that we just ran with it back in 1976:

Ha, ha, fancy typesetting and artwork! Typed and mimeographed.

Will appears to have had a man crush on his friend.

Michael Ehrhart seems to have played a lasting joke on Dockery. Ehrhart
is probably still laughing at what he was able to do to that awful poem.

That would explain hit titling it "Shatt, RD" and illustrating it with a
color prototype of Chuck E. Cheese.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/15ndUbyxDi/

What's "dazzling" about it? It's chock full of errors.

And the problem is Will Dockery never recognized the errors, over a
period of 50 years. He is just as clueless in using the English
language now as he was in 1976. Some people never learn. Some people
are unteachable. Some people are both.

Will can't admit that he's functionally illiterate, since in doing so,
he'd have to recognize the fact that his poems are... "unspeakable
shit."

Unspeakable shit by any other title is still Will Dockery's output.

But Will's ego will not allow him to accept that fact. Therefore, he
would rather remain functionally illiterate, so long as in doing so, he maintains the illusion that his poetry is worth reading.

The idea that he would have to spend several years, taking basic English
courses only to be faced with the task of having to rewrite 50 years'
worth of poetry sounds overwhelming. And as Cujo pointed out, he's too
damn lazy to do either.

True. He says he's been "writing" poetry for 50 years, but he really
hasn't. He writes whatever comes into his head, marbles in, marbles
out.

But that is the aim of Fragmentism! The Fragmentist poet attempts to
capture the essence of thought by recording the thought fragments as
they pop into his head. He isn't trying to create a cohesive narrative
or even to convey an idea, feeling, or tone to his reader. He's
recreating his own reality by allowing his readers to see how his
individual thought fragments arise (often triggered by the preceding
thought fragment, much as in word association).

Thanks for reading and commenting.

Can you point out the errors?

For starters, he hyphenated "never" as "ne-ver." Hyphenation is
something that the rest of us had mastered by the 5th grade.

Wasn't Dockery in the 5th grade for several years?

Based on his age at the time he dropped out, he had to have been left
back at least twice (possibly three times). I know that he failed his
senior year, but which year (or years) he failed before that are
unknown.

We suppose we could look at the yearbooks, but most of those have been confiscated by the FBI for profiling.

That might help. Although I think he was left back in the 4th, 5th or
6th grade. I can't imagine that any teacher would have allowed him to
move on to junior high school with such a poor comprehension of basic
language skills.

As to pointing out your errors, see below.

Hopefully I caught them all in my later revisions.

Shattered

The seconds have piled up
at the floor

*ON* the floor. Not "at" it.

lost here in some other guy's past

"here" is superfluous. "lost in some other guy's past"

lying there

LOL! Is your speaker "here" or "there"? He can't be in both
simultaneously.

It's a Beatles song reference! "Here, There and Everywhere."

In a sense, it probably is. I've long been convinced that Will learned
how to write poetry (and I'm being extremely kind in calling it poetry)
by listening to the lyrics of rock albums.

But he didn't understand most of the words (except for they, here,
there, and it), so he made up meanings. "No thoughts go unexpressed."

Will is an autodidact (although, again I feel I'm being extremely kind
to him by using this term). Autodidacts often attempt to learn the
meanings of words through the context with which they were used when he
heard them. He figures out the probable meanings of words from
conversations, songs, comic books, tv shows, etc. Sometimes he guesses correctly. More often then not, he has picked up a meaning that's
slightly off -- a vague conception that is correct only when used in the absolute broadest sense. (The result is similar to thinking that the 70 synonyms for a given word in a Thesaurus are all interchangeable.)
Other times, his guess is entirely wrong.

The result is that the foundations of his vocabulary are built upon half-correct guesses; and the more he tries to use the words to present
a specific meaning, the greater his misuse of them becomes. Will had
gone through life associating with other functional illiterates (Brother
Dave, Stinky George, Vinyl Cat, etc.), whose vocabularies were pieced
together in a similar manner. Since none of them have any idea as to
the specific meanings of words, they use them in the broader, general
sense -- which usually suffices, since the topics of their conversations
are never really very specific anyway ("Interesting." "Excellent poem."
"Nice old school poem," "Loves me some Bukowski," etc.).

with your seconds piled

Whose seconds, Donkey? In the opening line they were "the seconds"
connoting universal measurements of time. Now the seconds belong to
someone else

Maybe he was dueling or boxing?

I like the idea of a dueling Donkey -- with his hapless seconds piling
up on the floor at his feet.

Probably at the sawmill, disguised as workplace accidents. Will
certainly would have gotten his ears cut off had he been near any
machinery. He said he just pushed buttons.

LMAO over that one!

there went by a life

You should be imprisoned for torturing language like that.

Good call!

"a life passed by" is the correct way of expressing this. However, the >>>> tense would be incorrect. "Lying there" is present tense, meaning that >>>> your speaker is in the present moment. If he's thinking about someone >>>> else's life that touched his in the past, he needs to specify this
before switching tenses.

"remembering a life that passed by"

untold
unasked
going by

You've already said that it "went by." "Going by" is just a needless
repetition.

It also changes the tense back from past "went" to "present". Random
switches between tenses are an earmark of a Will Donkey poem. You need >>>> to learn how to use tenses correctly.

He didn't learn then and can't learn now (then, there, here).

The Donkey is capable of learning. I'm certain of it. His problem
isn't so much an inability to learn as it is an inability to admit that
he's made a mistake.

He shares that flaw with North George Dance.

Yes, but for different reasons. The Donkey refuses to admit that he's
wrong, because deep down he knows that he is functionally illiterate.
Admitting that he's functionally illiterate would destroy the persona of
Will Donkey the poet that he has spent his entire lifetime convincing
himself of. To realize that his creative work of 50 years has amounted
to nothing more than a literary joke, would be unbearable to him. He
probably would spill his marbles on the floor as a last defense against
seeing the truth for what it is.

George Dance, otoh, cannot admit that he's wrong because he has
convinced himself that he is MENSA George, super genius. George isn't
trying to protect this delusion, because unlike his Donkey he fully
believes it. George's ego inflated early on as an emotional protection
against his unloving parents. They thought that Boy George was
worthless and should be seen doing chores and not heard. As a result,
George's self-esteem should have been almost nonexistent. But Boy
George subconsciously compensated for these feelings of worthlessness by allowing his ego to inflate to such gargantuan proportions that nothing
could ever harm it (or him).

What he needs is for someone he trusts to point out his errors to him.
Since George Dance has promised to edit his poem, one can hope that he
just might take the time to explain to him the importance of consistency
in tense.

George Dance only edits spelling and spankings.

I know that George never has bothered to explain his grammatical
shortcomings to the Donkey in the past... but one has to hold onto the
hope that he might.

George Dance is afraid that he might lose one of the last friends he
has, so he doesn't dare correct Dockery.

I don't think so. George has said to Cujo that he has little interest
in anything at AAPC except for his own poetry. George couldn't care
less about his Donkey or his Donkey's poetry. He's only here to talk
about himself.

never caused and never traced
the future never ever appears here.

What are you trying to say here? That this unidentified person's life >>>> was never caused? One should think their parents had been the source. >>>> And how is a life traced? Generally this would mean
recalled/recollected/remembered, but you wouldn't just use "traced" to >>>> signify that. Your sentence appears to be bemoaning the fact that no
one ever traced their image on a piece of transparent paper.

And what's with the "never ever"? People stop saying "never ever" at
the age of 5 or 6.

That was Mr. Dockery's mental age at 22 in the 11th grade. He was doing >>> the best he could with what he had.

Well, Will is to be congratulated. He's since progressed to the mental
age of a 10-year old.

What is a 10-year-old capable of learning? Supposedly logic, but we
don't see that. Coming into puberty at the age of five hindered Will Dockery. (They do things differently in the deep South).

That varies from 10-year old to 10-year old. Will is the 10-year old
who took the short bus to school.

If some morning I wake
here for you

Again, this is torturous prose. It should be "If I awake some morning." >>>> In your line, the speaker is pondering the consequences of his waking >>>> up a morning.

"Here," again, is superfluous -- where else would you be expected to
wake? "There"?

Maybe "on" or "at?"

I've got it! Will woke up lying here at the floor over there!

All things for all people.

trying to find some reason to return

At this point, your speaker is babbling incoherently. One doesn't wake >>>> up in the middle of attempting to find a reason for doing something.
One wakes up from sleeping.

Maybe he was trying to return something at Walmart without a receipt?

You know, if he had a credit card, he wouldn't have any difficulty
making returns. Walmart's always been very good about that sort of
thing.

Of course to get a credit card, he'd have to get a job...

He could probably get a job at Walmart, checking receipts.

He'd have to own a clean pair of clothes and bathe regularly.

And, you have yet to identify who this person being addressed is.

Probably the principal, after Mr. Dockery got kicked out of school.

I've been thinking about Will's poem, and I've come to a similar
conclusion.

We think that the principal also killed himself.

Massacre at Carver High.

The speaker is lying "shattered" on the floor, with his life having
passed him by, because he'd just received notice that he would have to
be repeating his senior year again.

And he heard the voice of "GED" in the sky, telling him that he was
special, that he "don't need no education."

It's tattooed on his chest.

This is another earmark of a Will Donkey poem -- addressing various
pronouns (you, he, she, it, they) without identifying them to the
reader.

It was all a dream, and he had forgotten their names, although they had
told him twice. "Hole in one"

In this particular poem, it turns out that he has simply lost his
marbles.

Such a lack of awareness in a 22-year-old llth grader.

I beg to differ. He was actually showing some perceptiveness. He was
aware that he'd lost his marbles at a relatively early age.

if I see things denied

It's impossible to tell if this line relates to that preceding or
following it. It doesn't make sense either way.

Not surprising.

That's one of the problems with Fragmentist poetry -- the individual
thought fragments aren't required to correspond to any of the other
thought fragments.

Therefore, any thought fragment can be pulled out of the can of thought fragments and be used at random without affecting the logic or flow of
the poem?

Detractors of the Fragmentist school have argued along those lines.
However, the Fragments' goal is to capture their thought fragments *as
they arise* in their conscious mind. Therefore, a successful
Fragmentist thought fragment should follow from, and lead to, the
thought fragments that precede and follow it, respectively.

Is he seeing things he once defined denied? What did he define? For a >>>> person to "define" something would mean that he was the perfect symbol >>>> of that particularly quality or characteristic (Joe was the definition >>>> of courage).

Or is his waking contemplation of the possibility of returning to...
some unidentified thing (a relationship?) being denied by the
unidentified someone's actions?

All of those things.

No... I'm convinced that he's lying on the floor (excuse me, at the
floor) having gotten drunk and stoned out of his mind, upon learning
that he'd been left back yet again.

Where was he getting the money to buy the drugs? (or was Barfly
supplying them?)

From working at the mill and the lumber yard, and from Kathy's
waitressing jobs.

It all makes perfect sense.

Well, maybe not perfect sense.. and maybe not all of it... but at least
it's got some semblance of a plot.

Not an interesting or publishable plot, though.

Which is why in the 49 years since he wrote it, it's only been published
in his high school newspaper.

You need to learn how to convey information to your readers. Language >>>> is about communication. It is the means by which we pass on
*information* to others. When your poetry hints at vague relationships >>>> with unidentified pronouns, it is failing to express anything.

That's a theme in Mr. Dockery's attempts at writing.

That's unexpressionism?

That's an excellent term for it!

It's also indicative of his laziness. Why bother to think up a word for
something when you can just use a handy-dandy pronoun?

Or use the same words over and over and over, like "tizzy," "troll," and "obsessed?"

Yes, but that's in his conversations and posts -- not in his poetry.

"I told you it was good
But you said it was bad
What was it that we had?
I've never understood."

I've just written a Donkey style stanza in 3 seconds flat!

But it rhymes! Dockery poems don't rhyme, or if they do, it is in
random lines.

:(

Vaguery can be used to a poem's advantage -- but the *entire poem*
should never be incoherent.

At least he is consistent.

True. Let's give him credit for that.

But no credit cards. He couldn't even get a pre-paid one.

I once defined
a life just passed me by there

Where's "there"? If the life "just" passed you by, it would have done >>>> so just a few seconds ago, so "there" should be "here."

That was Sydne's wrong left turn with Stinky G.

So Sydne turned here when she should have been there, and now only a
broken Stinky G is left.

And where is Stinky G, since he's neither here nor there?

The Donkey said (somewhere, but not here, and probably not there) that
he was in Florida.

But earlier in the poem, you'd said that someone else's life had just
passed by.

Sydne's ghost.

No, it couldn't have been Sydne's ghost. Will wrote the poem in 1976
when he was a high school senior. Perhaps the ghost was that of his
future upon learning that he'd been left back another time?

Time travel is fluid.

Which life was it? The speaker's life? Or the unidentified "you" he is >>>> addressing?

The ghost of Dan Barfly.

Dan was still alive then, too. I believe he'd been thrown out of school
for sleeping with underage students, but he was still hanging around the
local bars.

Because that's where the underage girls and boys were.

Yes. He and Will also took a drug-fueled road trip to Florida at that
time (as incoherently recalled in one of Donkey's poems).

slipped through my fingers

This is just another way of saying "passed me by." If a line doesn't
add anything to the poem, you should cut it.

Perhaps the whole poem should be cut? Not just perhaps.

Perhaps the collected works of Will Donkey should be cut. With the
exception of "When the Mill Shut Down" (or whatever it was called).

So one poem is passable in 50 years of writing?

No. Will's written at least two poems that were passable, and one that
is actually good (When the Mill Shut Down). You're familiar with the
saying about a broken clock.

everything here now is real

WFT?

Was everything not real a moment ago?

More importantly, *what* has become real?

"The Real Housewives of Atlanta?"

The real housewives of Will Donkey's Atlanta don't really have houses.
They squat in abandoned "mansions" and do their doody in the back yard.

More hole references.

Well, "in a hole" is part of the refrain from "The Donkey Song."

so wait.
That portion of the finish
never comes.

I'm guessing that you were stoned out of your senses when you wrote
this, and that it all made perfect sense to you at the time?

He did the best drugs he could score on the playgrounds.

He was seeing a lot of "pretty lights" back in those days.

That's good because he couldn't pay the utility bills.

Lol. I hadn't that of that!

Are you telling the unidentified "you" (whose life had passed --
implying that they had died) to wait?

"Wait for Me" - Hall and Oates

I'm not familiar with that one (but please don't post a link).

Good song. You must have missed the 80s altogether.

Mostly. I listened to The Stray Cats, Crystal Gayle, Billy Joel and
Total Eclipse of the Heart.

Are you telling yourself to wait -- as your train of thought jumps
tracks?

"Then I'm willing to wait for it.
I'm willing to wait for it." - "Hamilton"

I had to google that one.

Another dueling reference.

Really? It's apparently I line from the Broadway show "Hamilton."
(Although spoken by Aaron Burr.)

Or are you telling the reader, who you haven't been addressing, to wait? >>>

"Wait Mister Postman"

Now that one I know!

Girl groups are fun to listen to!

Agreed.

And why use "portion" rather than "part"? It just sounds false (like a >>>> child attempting to use "big words").

Dockery was merely a 22-year-old, just entering the 5th grade. He knew
few words.

And now at 65 (give or take), he's increased is vocabulary to
approximately 100 words. Go Donkey!

Didn't Koko the Gorilla know more words than that?

I believe so... but gorillas are more intelligent than Donkeys.

And just what part of what finish are you referring to?

He meant Finnish.

So he and his friends and family were carving up a Finnish exchange
student?

That was Antii.

I'm glad someone was able to make good use of him.

Everything has suddenly become real (even though you had given no
previous indication that it was false, and even though you've failed to >>>> even hint at what "real" and "everything" relate to), is meant to be a >>>> false finish that never comes (and is, therefore, not a finish)?

Yes.

That would sound vaguely profound if it actually had any intelligible
meaning.

You have words and music. Do you need meaning too?

Meaning can be overrated.

Words mean whatever you want them to.

Spoken like a true Fragmentist!

Now that the lights are going so low
the dimming glow
falls on my ego

We have now arrived at the point in a Will Donkey poem, when I'm
inwardly screaming out "SHOOT ME NOW!!!"

That's when his teachers committed mass suicide.

No. They committed mass suicide when they learned they'd be stuck
teaching him for another year.

Thus "GED" appeared in the sky, saying "Go forth since you don't know
how to multiply." But Dockery fooled Him.

The "GED" should be ashamed of itself.

How does the dimming glow of some lights affect your speaker's ego?
Does he feel inconsequential at dusk?

He is rhyming three consecutive lines. It is vaguely reminiscent of
"Leggo my Eggo." The "so low" also refers to George Dance.

Will has often credited waffles as his poetic inspiration.

Random rhymes enliven even the most inane poems.

It's Will's nod to one of his biggest sources of inspiration: "Popeye
the Sailor Man." (Yes, Will has actually cited him as one of his
biggest influences.)

now that I'm falling
into my morning

So your speaker is still lying "here" (or, perhaps, "there") waking up >>>> from contemplating returning to someone or something, and the lights
have suddenly dimmed? Was there a brown out?

He's also falling up or down. Maybe into?

Up, down, falling around, looping the loop and defying the ground!

Is Dockery actually a hot air balloon?

That or a flying elephant.

here I am gazing into those
reflector eyes

Is the (supposedly deceased) "you" he's been addressing actually lying >>>> on the floor with him (not having "passed by" him at all)?

[continued in next message]

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