George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
first time he's been published legally in years.
His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.
Cool... cool....
General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>> first time he's been published legally in years.
His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.
Cool... cool....
Agreed.
🙂
Will Dockery wrote:
General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>> first time he's been published legally in years.
His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.
Cool... cool....
Agreed.
Good day to ye, kind sir.....
Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Love ole Ogden Nash....!
He did have his moments.
🙂
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Will Dockery wrote:
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly >>> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....
Pendragon is still playing stupid about it, but he's obviously mistaken, as George Dance corrected him.
Will Dockery wrote:
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on >>>>> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring >>>> on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum; >>>> Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general >>>> popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism, >>>> which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly >>>> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought, >>>> to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....
Pendragon is still playing stupid about it, but he's obviously mistaken, as George Dance corrected him.
That's just the way he is.....
On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see >>>>> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last >>>>> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>>> first time he's been published legally in years.
His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept >>>>> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Again, the response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Again, lest we forget.
HTH and HAND.
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see >>>>>> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last >>>>>> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>>>> first time he's been published legally in years.
His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept >>>>>> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.
I thank you for the knowledge.....
General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see >>>>> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last >>>>> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>>> first time he's been published legally in years.
His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept >>>>> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.
Cool... cool....
Agreed.
On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
the latter, since his wife was born in March).
George J. Dance wrote:since early childhood.
On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
This is something I enjoyed reading.
I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
been around since "the beginning"
Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.
But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
of verse, from PPP:
"A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."
And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
"In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
having been referred to as stanzas."
The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
rhymed ones.)
If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
proper categorization of "poetic prose."
I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
physical books and magazines.
When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its
Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.
Nailed it, George Dance.
HTH and HAND.
George J. Dance wrote:since early childhood.
On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
This is something I enjoyed reading.
I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>> been around since "the beginning"
Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.
But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>> of verse, from PPP:
"A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."
And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
"In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
having been referred to as stanzas."
The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
rhymed ones.)
If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
physical books and magazines.
When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.
Quite rightly....
since early childhood.On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
This is something I enjoyed reading.
I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>> been around since "the beginning"
Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.
But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>> of verse, from PPP:
"A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."
And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
"In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>> having been referred to as stanzas."
The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
rhymed ones.)
If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>> physical books and magazines.
When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.
George J. Dance wrote:since early childhood.
On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
This is something I enjoyed reading.
I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its >>>>> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in >>>>> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>>> been around since "the beginning"
Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.
But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>>> of verse, from PPP:
"A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the >>>>> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."
And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
"In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>>> having been referred to as stanzas."
The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and >>>>> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them, >>>>> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme >>>>> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
rhymed ones.)
If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>>> physical books and magazines.
When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery >>>
and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying >>>
attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic >>>
gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.
Cool back story...
since early childhood.On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
This is something I enjoyed reading.
I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>> been around since "the beginning"
Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.
But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>> of verse, from PPP:
"A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."
And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
"In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>> having been referred to as stanzas."
The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
rhymed ones.)
If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>> physical books and magazines.
When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.
General-Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Cool, second read
I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>> first time he's been published legally in years.
His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.
George J. Dance wrote:since early childhood.
On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
This is something I enjoyed reading.
I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its >>>>> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in >>>>> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>>> been around since "the beginning"
Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.
But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>>> of verse, from PPP:
"A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the >>>>> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."
And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
"In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>>> having been referred to as stanzas."
The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and >>>>> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them, >>>>> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme >>>>> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
rhymed ones.)
If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>>> physical books and magazines.
When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery >>>
and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying >>>
attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic >>>
gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.
"The times they are a changing...!!" ---Bob Dylan
Will Dockery wrote:
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....
Will Dockery wrote:
Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Love ole Ogden Nash....!
He did have his moments.
🙂
i like his poetry quite a lots......
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Will Dockery wrote:
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....
Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Love ole Ogden Nash....!
He did have his moments.
🙂
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Love ole Ogden Nash....!
He did have his moments.
🙂
Will Dockery wrote:
Zod wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Love ole Ogden Nash....!
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
George Dance wrote:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Well put, George.
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...] https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
George Dance wrote:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly >>> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Well put... Seconded...
George J. Dance wrote:
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
Again.... lovely poetry....
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Will Dockery wrote:
Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
Look it up.
We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
<q>
I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.
I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.
I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>
Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.
You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ
Quite rightly
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