I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka "HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
This also reminds me of a poem I wrote back around 1976, "Shattered,"
which starts with:
"The seconds have piled up on the floor,
Lost here in some other guy's past."
I posted this on the newsgroup a few years ago. JLA Forums does have a
search function so I might be able to locate it there.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Apparently not, as NG has Michael Pendragon here to defend and try to
explain away her second handed thoughts.
And so it goes.
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
agrees.
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 23:42:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:18:10 +0000, NancyGene wrote:
George Dance: "I did hear back from "Dr." NastyGoon; they left a
comment in this
thread. Their story, which they admit they've only assumed, is that
Creeley's poem doesn't even exist. (They didn't say whether they assumed >>> Creeley exists or not.)"
The above is a typical George Dance reply. What we said, which Mr.
Dance did not quote
NastyGoon, your post appears on this thread, which Will has probably
read. I quoted your post in my reply to you; don't expect me to quote it
every time I mention it.
Of course you're not going to quote NancyGene's statement, George.
It
would show your misquote for the bald-faced lie that it is.
You're certainly being true to you M.O., though, duplicitous George.
That's probably the nicest thing anyone can honestly say about you. One could almost say you have a sense of loyalty in light of how
unswervingly you stick to your patterns of deceit.
You never quote anyone. I can testify to this from my own experiences
with you.
You misquote.
You rephrase your so-called quotes in the form of seemingly innocent paraphrases , often in the form of questions beginning with phrases like
"So you're saying...".
I have already pointed out your lies regarding NancyGene's statement,
yet you insist upon repeating them.
was: "Thank you, Michael. We have strong doubts
that a poem titled "The Days Pile Up" by Robert Creeley exists." We did >>> not "assume," we doubted.
See? You can quote your own post. Though I notice you only quoted part
of it. You went on to "assume" that the line I quoted was not written by
Creeley. Are you now claiming it's possible that the poem I referenced
exists, but the line I quoted was not in it?
Stop playing the dunce, George. Nobody could be as stupid as make
yourself out to be (your Donkey excepted, of course).
NancyGene is explaining the difference between the words "assume" and "doubt," since your post makes it clear that you believe the two are synonymous.
EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7MgYIARBFGDsyBggCEEUYOzIHCAMQABiABDIGCAQQRRg5MgcIBRAAGIAEMgwIBhAAGEMYgAQYigUyBwgHEAAYgAQyBwgIEAAYgAQyBwgJEAAYgATSAQoxMTA2NGowajE1qAIIsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8The poem and that line does not come up in
any search for poems by Creeley or anyone else. (Our line also does not >>> come up in any search.)
Actually your line does come up in searches, as in this one:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Cluttering+my+mind+and+obstructing+my+day%22+used+in+poetry&rlz=1C1CHBD_enCA859CA859&oq=%22Cluttering&gs_lcrp=
Your problem finding it may be that you had the yesterdays "stack up in
plies". Obviously if you try a search with "piles" spelled
[in]correctly,
google won't find an exact match.
No one is claiming that NancyGene's poem doesn't exist, George. Nor are
we claiming that NancyGene's poem doesn't turn up in google searches
(Our line also does not
come up in any search.)
We are saying that Mr. Creeley's poem (at this point, one should say
"alleged poem") does not.
NG: "Mr. Dance posted one line, which was not the same as what we wrote
in our original poem. We have to assume..."
Mr. Dance took the word "assume" and disingenuously put it into another
context.
NG: "...that Mr. Dance was so jealous of our talents that he took the
first line
of our poem, changed it a bit, and claimed that we plagiarized it,
thinking that no one would challenge him."
If you're "assuming" that I wrote the line in question, then you're
"assuming" that Robert Creeley did not write it.
How many times do you need to be told that NancyGene hasn't assumed
anything?
She has expressly stated that she *doubted* the poem's existence. While
a doubt may lead to an assumption, the two are very different things.
For the past 10 years or so, I have been urging your Donkey to enroll in
free online course in basic English. I now urge you to do the same.
If you're incapable of understanding the differences between words like "doubt" and "assume," you have no business discussing anything in a
public forum -- much less one that's supposedly intended for writers.
George Dance, if you are going to accuse us of plagiarizing a poem,
posting one "line" from a poem that does not seem to have been published >>> anywhere is not sufficient proof.
Your failure to find the poem via a google search does not indicate that
it was not published. After all, Creeley is a published poet who wrote
the bulk of his poetry before the web existed.
Which is precisely why we have both asked you to provide us with either
a link to the poem, or with information regarding the book/journal in
which it appeared.
Again, if you are, in fact, quoting from a real poem, you must have had
a copy of that poem in front of you.
Perhaps you could supply the name of
the book in which the poem was published?
Yes, in fact I could.
Or perhaps you could give us
the first four lines of the poem (which would not violate copyright
laws) so that we could compare our poem with that of Mr. Creeley. Or
just give us the url where you found the poem.
Perhaps I could do that, too; but why would I give you four lines of his
poem when y'all have shared only two lines of your own?
Since you have located NancyGene's poem in a google search, you should
be able to click on the links.
If you have been blocked from them,
which well may be the case, you should be able to read her poem in full
when it appears in our online magazine next month.
Since her poem is scheduled for publication, you cannot expect her to
post it in this group.
George Dance, you are not the only person who knows the names of poets.
We understand that you are jealous and perhaps even afraid of us, and
what you write reflects that insecurity.
NastyGoon, a belief that other people are jealous and afraid of you
sounds like a sign you may be suffering from narcissistic personality
disorder. You should really seek professional help for that.
Unless, of course, she's right. I have already stated that you're
jealous of her.
Am I suffering from NPD by proxy?
As to your being
afraid of her superior intellect... if you aren't, you certainly should
be.
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I >>>> was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
agrees.
After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor is
makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does
not.
If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you
now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so
on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping
to read some day when you have the time.
That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
keeps piling up and piling up.
But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already
read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need
to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people
save all the newspapers they've already read?
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 4:17:13 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 23:42:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:18:10 +0000, NancyGene wrote:
George Dance: "I did hear back from "Dr." NastyGoon; they left a
comment in this
thread. Their story, which they admit they've only assumed, is that
Creeley's poem doesn't even exist. (They didn't say whether they assumed >>>> Creeley exists or not.)"
The above is a typical George Dance reply. What we said, which Mr.
Dance did not quote
NastyGoon, your post appears on this thread, which Will has probably
read. I quoted your post in my reply to you; don't expect me to quote it >>> every time I mention it.
Of course you're not going to quote NancyGene's statement, George.
It
would show your misquote for the bald-faced lie that it is.
If either of you thought it showed a "lie" or a "misquote" then you'd
quote the whole thing yourself. Since
You're certainly being true to you M.O., though, duplicitous George.
That's probably the nicest thing anyone can honestly say about you. One
could almost say you have a sense of loyalty in light of how
unswervingly you stick to your patterns of deceit.
You never quote anyone. I can testify to this from my own experiences
with you.
I constantly quote your statements to show when you're contradicting yourself, HarryLiar. Your response is to whine that it was "out of
context", repost the entire paragraph showing that you'd said exactly
what I'd claimed you did, and then drop the subject for a few months,
when you do it all again.
You misquote.
You rephrase your so-called quotes in the form of seemingly innocent
paraphrases , often in the form of questions beginning with phrases like
"So you're saying...".
No, when I use that, I'm pointing out what your statements imply,
logically. (You do know what "imply" means, since you constantly try to
do the same thing, the only difference being that you don't check if
they're really saying that; you you just claim that's what they did say.
I have already pointed out your lies regarding NancyGene's statement,
yet you insist upon repeating them.
That's probably not true, but
was: "Thank you, Michael. We have strong doubts
that a poem titled "The Days Pile Up" by Robert Creeley exists." We did >>>> not "assume," we doubted.
See? You can quote your own post. Though I notice you only quoted part
of it. You went on to "assume" that the line I quoted was not written by >>> Creeley. Are you now claiming it's possible that the poem I referenced
exists, but the line I quoted was not in it?
Stop playing the dunce, George. Nobody could be as stupid as make
yourself out to be (your Donkey excepted, of course).
NancyGene is explaining the difference between the words "assume" and
"doubt," since your post makes it clear that you believe the two are
synonymous.
No, HarryLiar. You didn't understand either what your Goon wrote or what
I wrote. NastyGoon began by "doubting" that Creeley wrote the poem I referenced, but by the end of their post was "assuming" that Creeley
didn't write the opening line that I quoted. opening line of his poem,
then she's "assuming" that Creeley didn't write it. I know you can't
handle usenet unless you're drunk, but that doesn't excuse comp
EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7MgYIARBFGDsyBggCEEUYOzIHCAMQABiABDIGCAQQRRg5MgcIBRAAGIAEMgwIBhAAGEMYgAQYigUyBwgHEAAYgAQyBwgIEAAYgAQyBwgJEAAYgATSAQoxMTA2NGowajE1qAIIsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
The poem and that line does not come up in
any search for poems by Creeley or anyone else. (Our line also does not >>>> come up in any search.)
Actually your line does come up in searches, as in this one:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Cluttering+my+mind+and+obstructing+my+day%22+used+in+poetry&rlz=1C1CHBD_enCA859CA859&oq=%22Cluttering&gs_lcrp=
Your problem finding it may be that you had the yesterdays "stack up in
plies". Obviously if you try a search with "piles" spelled
[in]correctly,
google won't find an exact match.
No one is claiming that NancyGene's poem doesn't exist, George. Nor are
we claiming that NancyGene's poem doesn't turn up in google searches
Wrong, Lying Michael. NastyGoon just told us that their poem doesn't
turn up in any web searches:
(Our line also does not
come up in any search.)
You'll tell any lie if you think it helps you win a flamewar, won't you?
We are saying that Mr. Creeley's poem (at this point, one should say
"alleged poem") does not.
NG: "Mr. Dance posted one line, which was not the same as what we wrote >>>> in our original poem. We have to assume..."
Mr. Dance took the word "assume" and disingenuously put it into another >>>> context.
NG: "...that Mr. Dance was so jealous of our talents that he took the
first line
of our poem, changed it a bit, and claimed that we plagiarized it,
thinking that no one would challenge him."
If you're "assuming" that I wrote the line in question, then you're
"assuming" that Robert Creeley did not write it.
How many times do you need to be told that NancyGene hasn't assumed
anything?
How many times do you think you have to say that before it becomes true?
As NG just said, they had to "assume" that Creeley didn't write the
opening line of his poem. (They're "assuming that I wrote it instead.)
As I just told them, it makes no sense to "assume" that Creeley didn't
write the opening line, and deny you're not "assuming" that he didn't
write the poem.
She has expressly stated that she *doubted* the poem's existence. While
a doubt may lead to an assumption, the two are very different things.
Yes, a doubt may lead to an assumption; and in this case it took NG only
one paragraph to go from doubt to assumption. (With you it usually takes
at least one more post.)
For the past 10 years or so, I have been urging your Donkey to enroll in
free online course in basic English. I now urge you to do the same.
If it's the course you took, Mr. Peabrain, I'll pass.
If you're incapable of understanding the differences between words like
"doubt" and "assume," you have no business discussing anything in a
public forum -- much less one that's supposedly intended for writers.
Since you like to toss the word "strawman" around so freely, let me
point out that that is exactly what you're doing here. I did not say
that the words had the same meaning. I said that NastyGoon started by "doubting" that Creeley wrote the poem, and ended by "assuming" that he didn't write its opening line - which is logically no different from
claiming that he didn't write it.
George Dance, if you are going to accuse us of plagiarizing a poem,
posting one "line" from a poem that does not seem to have been published >>>> anywhere is not sufficient proof.
Your failure to find the poem via a google search does not indicate that >>> it was not published. After all, Creeley is a published poet who wrote
the bulk of his poetry before the web existed.
Which is precisely why we have both asked you to provide us with either
a link to the poem, or with information regarding the book/journal in
which it appeared.
So you want me to do your research again; but we both know how that will
turn out. If I gave you the name of the book, you'd "doubt" that the
poem was really in it, and demand that I prove that. if I then gave you
the table of contents, showing the poem title, you'd "doubt" that it contained the line and demand that I produce the entire poem. If I then
gave you the entire poem, you'd go back to "doubting" that Creeley wrote
it and "assuming" that I did (which, once again, come to the same
thing.) You're simply trolling again, this time with your most faithful
ally.
OTOH, if you're actually interested in reading Creeley's poem, not just simply trolling for once, there's no reason you can't look for it
yourself. Get off your asses and do what we used to do before the
internet existed. NG claims to use a local library; let them start
there.
Again, if you are, in fact, quoting from a real poem, you must have had
a copy of that poem in front of you.
Perhaps you could supply the name of
the book in which the poem was published?
Yes, in fact I could.
Or perhaps you could give us
the first four lines of the poem (which would not violate copyright
laws) so that we could compare our poem with that of Mr. Creeley. Or
just give us the url where you found the poem.
Perhaps I could do that, too; but why would I give you four lines of his >>> poem when y'all have shared only two lines of your own?
Since you have located NancyGene's poem in a google search, you should
be able to click on the links.
I see you're back to playing the peabrain, HarryLiar. Of course I can
click on the link to your facebook page, but I can't read NastyGoon's
poem there because you blocked me from reading the poems there.
If you have been blocked from them,
which well may be the case, you should be able to read her poem in full
when it appears in our online magazine next month.
Since her poem is scheduled for publication, you cannot expect her to
post it in this group.
Frankly, I have no interest at all in reading their poetry. They have
posted enough of it in this group to last for a month.
George Dance, you are not the only person who knows the names of poets. >>>> We understand that you are jealous and perhaps even afraid of us, and
what you write reflects that insecurity.
NastyGoon, a belief that other people are jealous and afraid of you
sounds like a sign you may be suffering from narcissistic personality
disorder. You should really seek professional help for that.
Unless, of course, she's right. I have already stated that you're
jealous of her.
Yes, of course you have; that's probably where they got the idea in the
first place. Notice I asked her to talk to a "professional" which
excludes you.
Am I suffering from NPD by proxy?
No, I'd say you're suffering from straight NPD; you have the same
irrational belief that those who dislike you are jealous of you.
Given your M.O. of slurping your allies and attacking your supposed
enemies, it's expected that you'd convince them to believe the same
thing. I bet even your Chimp now believes that I'm jealous of him, too.
As to your being
afraid of her superior intellect... if you aren't, you certainly should
be.
There's nothing wrong with NG's intellect; unlike your Chimp, e.g., they
were capable of learning how rhyme worked. Who knows, they may even understand meter by now. Their major problem has always been their
stupidity (willful ignorance); which is something you're enabling with
your constant slurpage of them.
Query to Gemini AI: "Is there a poem by Robert Creeley called "The Days
Pile Up?"
Gemini AI: "No, there is no published poem by Robert Creeley titled
"The Days Pile Up." While the imagery of days accumulating is certainly something he might have explored, and the phrase has a Creeley-esque
feel, it's not a known work of his.
Query to Gemini AI: "Is there a poem by Robert Creeley that contains
the line 'The days pile up like unread newspapers'"
Gemini AI: "No, there's no published poem by Robert Creeley that
contains the line 'The days pile up like unread newspapers.' While it
sounds like something he might have written, it's not a line that
appears in his known body of work."
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 19:25:17 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 19:22:21 +0000, NancyGene wrote:
Query to Gemini AI: "Is there a poem by Robert Creeley called "The Days >>> Pile Up?"
Gemini AI: "No, there is no published poem by Robert Creeley titled
"The Days Pile Up." While the imagery of days accumulating is certainly >>> something he might have explored, and the phrase has a Creeley-esque
feel, it's not a known work of his.
Query to Gemini AI: "Is there a poem by Robert Creeley that contains
the line 'The days pile up like unread newspapers'"
Gemini AI: "No, there's no published poem by Robert Creeley that
contains the line 'The days pile up like unread newspapers.' While it
sounds like something he might have written, it's not a line that
appears in his known body of work."
The days may not be piling up, but the evidence that George Dance made
the whole plagiarism accusation up certainly is!
--
The poem does exist, but most of the poetry of Robert Creeley isn't
available online.
We searched the BOOKS "The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1945-1975"
and "The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1975-2005," with no results
for "The Days Pile Up" or "The days pile up like unread newspapers." Undeterred, we then searched the BOOKS for the words "newspapers,"
"piled," or "unread," with no results for a poem with even a tiny
resemblance to the poem Mr. Dance insists that we plagiarized. We have
also searched other collections of Robert Creeley BOOKS, with no results
for "The Days Pile Up" or "The days pile up like unread newspapers" as
the first (or any) line.
Mr. Creeley died in 2005. The above are his complete published works,
with titles and first lines of the poems. If Mr. Dance has a secret
cache of unpublished Creeley poems, he should let the Creeley estate
know about it.
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I >>>>> was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line >>>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be >>>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
agrees.
After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does
not.
If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you
now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so
on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping
to read some day when you have the time.
That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
keeps piling up and piling up.
Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley. Piled newspapers are being compared to two very different things.
Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.
NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers
don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
thrown away).
But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already
read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need
to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people
save all the newspapers they've already read?
As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
If you haven't read the
newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.
The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
oppressive with each passing day.
Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of
wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being weighed down by the past is not.
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka >>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I >>>>>> was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line >>>>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be >>>>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
agrees.
After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does
not.
If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you >>> now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so
on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping >>> to read some day when you have the time.
That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
keeps piling up and piling up.
Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
No, HarryLiar. Creeley's simile compared how "The days pile up" with how "unread newspapers" pile up (which makes sense, as unread newspapers do
pile up if one has no time to read them).
If (as I read him) he's using "The days" to represent "all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business," that is
not a simile. It's a differet literary device entirely.
NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley. Piled
newspapers are being compared to two very different things.
Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.
NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers
don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
thrown away).
But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already
read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need
to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people
save all the newspapers they've already read?
As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile
represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays
are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
If you haven't read the
newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.
So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense;
but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
oppressive with each passing day.
Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not normall stack up that way
- once they're read, they're thrown away.
If
NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not
thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a
hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.
Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of
wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being
weighed down by the past is not.
First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted
time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.
Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you
say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),
"read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025 1:30:57 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:HarryLime wrote:
Here we have yet another example of George Dance's libelous and
duplicitous nature.
For starters he claims that NancyGene "lift(ed) the line" from Robert
Creeley's poem.
This is an obvious lie.
NancyGene wrote:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
Mr. Creeley wrote: "The days pile up like unread newspapers."
The only similarity between the two is extremely superficial; i.e., that
both use the image of piled newspapers as a simile.
However, they are comparing the newspapers to two very different things.
NancyGene's poem compares them to "Yesterdays" (which, in the context of
her poem, is a metaphor for "Memories").
Mr. Creeley's poem compares them to "days" (which, from the one line
that I've read of his poem, appears to be a metaphor for "Time").
In short, we have different sets of words being applied to different
subjects.
Furthermore, NancyGene's simile for Memory compares it to a stack of
"read newspapers; whereas Mr. Creeley's poem compares Time to a pile of
"unread newspapers."
The significance between "read" and "unread" newspapers is not merely a
matter of semantics. As a simile for Memory, the newspapers have been
read because they represent the daily events that the speaker has
experienced. These experiences are what provide the content of their
memories.
Whereas in Mr. Creeley's poem, the newspapers are unread (not
experienced by the speaker). Again, I have not read Mr. Creeley's poem
(more on that later), but based on the content of the opening line, it
appears that his poem refers to the passage of time piling up on the
speaker like *wasted days*. IOW, the speaker is a recluse or shut-in of
some sort -- whether through age, infirmity, or depression.
These are vastly different subjects with only a few superficial
resemblances in their opening lines. That is hardly an act of literary
theft (a.k.a., plagiarism) -- in spite of Mr. Dance's accusation.
Secondly, Mr. Dance's accusation of literary theft entails that
NancyGene had been familiar with Mr. Creeley's poem. By leveling this
accusation at her, Mr. Dance is implying that NancyGene had knowingly
lifted a line from Mr. Creeley's poem, without crediting the line to
him. I have spoken to NancyGene regarding this, and she has never heard
of his poem. Nor, for that matter, have I.
So what, exactly is going on here?
Let's summarize the above:
George Dance noticed some superficial similarity between the line I'd
quoted from NancyGene's poem and a line in a poem by Mr. Creeley. Even
though the similes are about different topics, and even though the
"newspapers" are "read" in one poem and "unread" in the other (with
different metaphoric meanings implicit in each); and even though Mr.
Dance had no means of knowing whether NancyGene had even heard of Mr.
Creeley's poem, he falsely accused her of literary theft.
Aside: He through in one of his childish names ("NastyGoon") as well.
Nobody expected you to admit Nancy Gene is a second hander troll,
Pendragon.
And so it goes.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
I'm looking forward to finally seeing the Robert Creeley poem, so we can compare.
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka >>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here. >>>>>>> Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I >>>>>>> was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line >>>>>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be >>>>>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
agrees.
After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does >>>> not.
If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you >>>> now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so >>>> on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping >>>> to read some day when you have the time.
That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things >>>> one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
keeps piling up and piling up.
Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
No, HarryLiar. Creeley's simile compared how "The days pile up" with how
"unread newspapers" pile up (which makes sense, as unread newspapers do
pile up if one has no time to read them).
If (as I read him) he's using "The days" to represent "all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business," that is
not a simile. It's a differet literary device entirely.
Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.
NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley. Piled
newspapers are being compared to two very different things.
Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.
NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers
don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
thrown away).
But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already >>>> read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need >>>> to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people >>>> save all the newspapers they've already read?
As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile
represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays
are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
And just what literary device is that?
If you haven't read the
newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.
So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense;
but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
(which you have no intention of identifying)?
The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
oppressive with each passing day.
Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not
normally stack up that way
Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
they are stacked up by others.
But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
they stack themselves in real life?
- once they're read, they're thrown away.
Under normal circumstances, yes.
However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often
do not bother taking out their trash. As previously noted, my Great
Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.
If
NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something
else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not
thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a
hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.
Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the practices of my Great Aunt.
Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of
wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being
weighed down by the past is not.
First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted
time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make
sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.
There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been
saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his supposed poem.
Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you
say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),
"read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.
I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)
when entering her house through the yellowing stacks. Old newspapers
have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of
suffocation.
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka >>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were >>>>>>>> intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here. >>>>>>>> Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I >>>>>>>> was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line >>>>>>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be >>>>>>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene >>>>>> agrees.
After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does >>>>> not.
If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up." >>>>> You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll >>>>> have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you >>>>> now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so >>>>> on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping >>>>> to read some day when you have the time.
That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things >>>>> one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just >>>>> keeps piling up and piling up.
Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
No, HarryLiar. Creeley's simile compared how "The days pile up" with how >>> "unread newspapers" pile up (which makes sense, as unread newspapers do
pile up if one has no time to read them).
If (as I read him) he's using "The days" to represent "all the things
one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business," that is
not a simile. It's a differet literary device entirely.
Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't
fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.
Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
"the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in
a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling
up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the
difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.
NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley. Piled
newspapers are being compared to two very different things.
Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.
NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers >>>> don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
thrown away).
But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already >>>>> read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need >>>>> to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every >>>>> single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they >>>>> need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just >>>>> the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people >>>>> save all the newspapers they've already read?
As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile >>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays >>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
And just what literary device is that?
"Symbolism" sounds good to me.
If you haven't read the
newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.
So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense; >>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
(which you have no intention of identifying)?
I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar.
Now, as for their
similes, both are virtualy identical: both compare days ("The days" in
one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read"
in the other).
The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
oppressive with each passing day.
Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not
normally stack up that way
Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
they are stacked up by others.
That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by
people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've alread
read.
But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
they stack themselves in real life?
If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the says "pile
up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally
"pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not
normally "stack up" (like
"read newspapers"). That should be clear enough to anyone who isn't just trying to play the peabrain.
- once they're read, they're thrown away.
Under normal circumstances, yes.
So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.
However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often
do not bother taking out their trash. As previously noted, my Great
Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and
magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and
covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.
Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's
what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.
If
NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something >>> else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not
thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a >>> hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.
"Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets, whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than NastyGoon's.
Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the
practices of my Great Aunt.
Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from
clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you
were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from
the exact same clinical depression?
My only response has to be that most readers don't have a Great Aunt
like that; so they'd simply see it as a bad simile: trying to show how "yesterdays" stack up by comparing it to something that doesn't normall "stack up".
Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of
wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being >>>> weighed down by the past is not.
First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted
time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make >>> sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.
There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been
saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his
supposed poem.
We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely
by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got
NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection
see it as a bad simile.
Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you >>> say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),
"read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.
I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)
when entering her house through the yellowing stacks. Old newspapers
have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of
suffocation.
Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up
to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who
didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers
were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,
just as I do.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't >>> fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.
Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
"the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in
a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling
up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the
difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.
I believe that I first learned about similes in the 3rd Grade. A simile
was defined as a comparison between two seemingly different things (A is
like B).
I've never had any interest in labeling the various forms, styles, components, etc., of poetry.
I know that PJR and Horatio used to do
that quite a bit, and that you were always eager to join in -- only to
be ignored. It always struck me as an exercise in pointlessness.
Poetry isn't about the labels one can attach to it, or the categories
one can pigeonhole it into.
NancyGene's line is great regardless of whether it's a simile, metaphor,
or an example of symbolism.
As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile >>>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays >>>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not. >>>> In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
And just what literary device is that?
"Symbolism" sounds good to me.
It doesn't to me.
A symbol is the substitution of one thing for another. Using
"Yesterdays" to represent "Memories" is closer to being a symbol (it's actually a metaphor) than "Yesterdays... (are) like ... read newspapers" (which I still think is a simile).
So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense; >>>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
(which you have no intention of identifying)?
I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar.
How can you accuse me of lying it my previous post, when you just
identified it (incorrectly, IMHO) in this one?
Now, as for their
similes, both are virtually identical: both compare days ("The days" in
one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read"
in the other).
But the days are used to represent *different things* in each.
Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time.
Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific
words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic)
meanings?
The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
oppressive with each passing day.
Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not >>>> normally stack up that way.
Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
they are stacked up by others.
That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by
people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've already
read.
It is neither stupid, nor quibbling, George. I was demonstrating how one
can change the meaning of a sentence by examining it out of context (something which you do in practically every post).
According to your
sentence, the newspapers have taken on a life of their own and are
capable of movement (piling themselves in stacks).
If you don't like it, don't do it.
But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
they stack themselves in real life?
If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the [d]ays "pile
up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally
"pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not
normally "stack up" (like "read newspapers"). That should be clear
enough to anyone who isn't just
trying to play the peabrain.
See my comments below. While "unread newspapers" get stacked up because
the subscriber hasn't had time to read them, "read newspapers" get
stacked up when the subscriber is suffering from clinical depression --
which is what NancyGene's poem is about.
- once they're read, they're thrown away.
Under normal circumstances, yes.
So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.
However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often
do not bother taking out their trash. As previously noted, my Great
Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and >>> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and
covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.
Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's
speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's
what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.
I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further
into the poem. I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my
initial reading.
If
NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something >>>> else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not >>>> thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a >>>> hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.
"Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets,
whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than
NastyGoon's.
Because old clothes don't represent memories.
A daily newspaper (specifically a daily newspaper that has been *read*)
is the perfect metaphor for one's memories, which comprises the events
one experiences each day.
one experiences each day." There are plenty of events that I experience
each day that I don't remember.
Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the
practices of my Great Aunt.
Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from
clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you
were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from
the exact same clinical depression?
I wouldn't say that it was the "exact same" one. Depression varies with
the individual. I'm saying that the *symptoms* of clinical depression
often involve shutting oneself off from the world, not wanting to leave
their house or even getting out of bed, not caring about their
appearance, not taking out their trash, etc.
My only response has to be that most readers don't have a Great Aunt
like that; so they'd simply see it as a bad simile: trying to show how
"yesterdays" stack up by comparing it to something that doesn't normall
"stack up".
I can't speak for most readers anymore than you can, George.
I can say that most people have experienced feelings of depression, and
can readily understand feeling oppressed or suffocated by their
memories.
Regardless of whether they've known someone suffering from clinical depression, they should be able to understand the metaphoric
similarities between one's memories (experienced events of each day) and daily newspapers (a report of events that occurred in one's local
community and the world at large on a day by day basis).
Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of >>>>> wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being >>>>> weighed down by the past is not.
First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted
time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make >>>> sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.
There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been
saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his
supposed poem.
We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely
by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got
NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection
see it as a bad simile.
You see what you want to see, George.
Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you >>>> say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),
"read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.
I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)
when entering her house through the yellowing stacks. Old newspapers
have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of
suffocation.
Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up
to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who
didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers
were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,
just as I do.
And, again, I'm willing to venture that they immediately pick up on the similarity between stacks of *read* newspapers and memories. One
doesn't need to have had a clinically depressed Great Aunt to recognize
that.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Note that George Dance didn't make any accusations, only an observation.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 15:51:41 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't >>>> fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.
Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
"the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in >>> a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling
up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the
difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.
I believe that I first learned about similes in the 3rd Grade. A simile
was defined as a comparison between two seemingly different things (A is
like B).
I've never had any interest in labeling the various forms, styles,
components, etc., of poetry.
I know that PJR and Horatio used to do
that quite a bit, and that you were always eager to join in -- only to
be ignored. It always struck me as an exercise in pointlessness.
Poetry isn't about the labels one can attach to it, or the categories
one can pigeonhole it into.
So, unless you're just trolling again, why did you bring it up here?
NancyGene's line is great regardless of whether it's a simile, metaphor,
or an example of symbolism.
As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile >>>>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays >>>>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not. >>>>> In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
And just what literary device is that?
"Symbolism" sounds good to me.
It doesn't to me.
Well, I did offer you another option: "metonymy".
A symbol is the substitution of one thing for another. Using
"Yesterdays" to represent "Memories" is closer to being a symbol (it's
actually a metaphor) than "Yesterdays... (are) like ... read newspapers"
(which I still think is a simile).
Now this is cute; you began by denying that Creeley's use (in my interpretation) of "The Days" that are piling up to "unfinished
business" that piles up was a "metaphor" (and claimed it was a simile.
Now you're insisting that NG's use of
"Yesterdays" (in your interpretation) to represent "memories" *is* a 'metaphor. You're doing exactly the same thing you accused me of.
So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense; >>>>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
(which you have no intention of identifying)?
I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar.
How can you accuse me of lying it my previous post, when you just
identified it (incorrectly, IMHO) in this one?
I didn't accuse you of "lying it" in your previous post. "HarryLiar" is
just your new nickname (since you didn't like "Lime sock"). If I accuse
you of lying, I'll call you Lying Michael (since that's the search term
for your lies that I'm now using so those can be found.
Now, as for their
similes, both are virtually identical: both compare days ("The days" in
one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read"
in the other).
But the days are used to represent *different things* in each.
Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time.
Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific
words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic)
meanings?
HarryLIar, judging by what you think Creeley meant by "The days", you
seem to be the one incapable of recognizing that he was using it had a metaphorical meaning. (I can now call it "metaphor" even though you
continue to insist that "not a metaphor.")
The speaker in
NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more >>>>>> oppressive with each passing day.
Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not >>>>> normally stack up that way.
Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves; >>>> they are stacked up by others.
That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by
people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've already
read.
It is neither stupid, nor quibbling, George. I was demonstrating how one
can change the meaning of a sentence by examining it out of context
(something which you do in practically every post).
According to your
sentence, the newspapers have taken on a life of their own and are
capable of movement (piling themselves in stacks).
No, that's simply your interpretation of the sentence. It actually says nothing about the newspapers taking on a life of their own and moving anywhere.
If you don't like it, don't do it.
But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
they stack themselves in real life?
If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the [d]ays "pile
up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally
"pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not
normally "stack up" (like "read newspapers"). That should be clear
enough to anyone who isn't just
trying to play the peabrain.
See my comments below. While "unread newspapers" get stacked up because
the subscriber hasn't had time to read them, "read newspapers" get
stacked up when the subscriber is suffering from clinical depression --
which is what NancyGene's poem is about.
- once they're read, they're thrown away.
Under normal circumstances, yes.
So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.
However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often >>>> do not bother taking out their trash. As previously noted, my Great
Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and >>>> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and >>>> covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.
Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's
speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's
what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.
I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further
into the poem. I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my
initial reading.
That's nice, but don't you remember what your mentor PJ Ross used to
tell us an "esperienced reader" would do if he found a first line in a
poem by a complete unknown that didn't make sense to him? Why expect
anyone to do it for NG's poem?
(Note that I haven't refused to read the rest of the poem. You and your "colleague" have refused to post it.)
If
NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something >>>>> else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not >>>>> thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a >>>>> hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.
"Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets,
whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than
NastyGoon's.
Because old clothes don't represent memories.
All righty, then. I gave you only three better choices.
A daily newspaper (specifically a daily newspaper that has been *read*)
is the perfect metaphor for one's memories, which comprises the events
one experiences each day.
No, "memories" does not comprise "the events
one experiences each day." There are plenty of events that I experience
each day that I don't remember.
Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the
practices of my Great Aunt.
Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from
clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you
were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from
the exact same clinical depression?
I wouldn't say that it was the "exact same" one. Depression varies with
the individual. I'm saying that the *symptoms* of clinical depression
often involve shutting oneself off from the world, not wanting to leave
their house or even getting out of bed, not caring about their
appearance, not taking out their trash, etc.
My only response has to be that most readers don't have a Great Aunt
like that; so they'd simply see it as a bad simile: trying to show how
"yesterdays" stack up by comparing it to something that doesn't normall
"stack up".
I can't speak for most readers anymore than you can, George.
Yet you have no trouble telling others what "readers" think of their
poems.
I can say that most people have experienced feelings of depression, and
can readily understand feeling oppressed or suffocated by their
memories.
Regardless of whether they've known someone suffering from clinical
depression, they should be able to understand the metaphoric
similarities between one's memories (experienced events of each day) and
daily newspapers (a report of events that occurred in one's local
community and the world at large on a day by day basis).
Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of >>>>>> wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being >>>>>> weighed down by the past is not.
First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted >>>>> time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make >>>>> sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.
There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been
saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his >>>> supposed poem.
We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely
by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got
NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection
see it as a bad simile.
You see what you want to see, George.
Ho, hum.
Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you >>>>> say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),
"read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.
I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)
when entering her house through the yellowing stacks. Old newspapers
have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of
suffocation.
Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up >>> to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who
didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers
were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,
just as I do.
And, again, I'm willing to venture that they immediately pick up on the
similarity between stacks of *read* newspapers and memories. One
doesn't need to have had a clinically depressed Great Aunt to recognize
that.
Well, the only way to tell what other readers will think of NastyGoon's
line is if their poem gets any other readers. Good luck to them.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Note that George Dance didn't make any accusations, only an observation.
HTH and HAND.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 17:28:45 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Note that George Dance didn't make any accusations, only an observation.
Wrong, Donkey.
George clearly specified that his "observation" was contingent upon
whether NancyGene credited Creeley for her poem -- which he knows full
well that she did not.
He knows this because I presented the opening
lines of her poem as being an example of *her* talent as a poet. Had
the lines been cribbed from Mr. Creeley, my example would not have
applied.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 17:28:45 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I >>>> was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Note that George Dance didn't make any accusations, only an observation.
Thank you, Will, for bringing us back to the start of the flamewar and reminding me of what it's about. It's easy to forget such things in the
heat of battle, but you're right: I didn't accuse NastyGoon of anything.
I said that giving a line without crediting the source was something NastyGoon would call plagiarism. So even that, the excuse HarryLiar used
to launch this latest salvo in his little war was a lie.
I'll be sure to mention that if they repeat that story again, and credit
you unless you don't want me to.
I'm not trying to defend NastyGoon, but they're probably not in on the
lie. It looks to me like HarryLiar was getting desperate for backup, so
he went to his facebook group and told NastyGoon that I'd accuse them of plagiarism, and they believed him. They may not have even read the OP.
Of course they can be faulted for believing the biggest liar on aapc,
but, hell, they'd almost talked me into believing I'd accused NastyGoon
of plagiarism. Which is completely silly; it isn't plagiarism to take
one line, with changes or not, from another poet's poem and use it in a
poem of one's own.
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 1:46:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 17:28:45 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line >>>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be >>>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Note that George Dance didn't make any accusations, only an observation.
Thank you, Will, for bringing us back to the start of the flamewar and
reminding me of what it's about. It's easy to forget such things in the
heat of battle, but you're right: I didn't accuse NastyGoon of anything.
I said that giving a line without crediting the source was something
NastyGoon would call plagiarism. So even that, the excuse HarryLiar used
to launch this latest salvo in his little war was a lie.
I realize that your understanding of context is as bad as, if not worse
than, your Donkey's; so I'll kindly explain it to you again.
You wrote: "I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise
that would be something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism."
Your use of "otherwise" imposes conditions on your statement (If this,
then that). In this case, if NancyGene didn't credit Creeley, then
NancyGene is guilty of plagiarism.
You imposed these conditions fully knowing that NancyGene would not have credited Creeley (or anyone else) for her own, original work.
In doing so, you have accused NancyGene of plagiarism.
I'll be sure to mention that if they repeat that story again, and credit
you unless you don't want me to.
I'm not trying to defend NastyGoon, but they're probably not in on the
lie. It looks to me like HarryLiar was getting desperate for backup, so
he went to his facebook group and told NastyGoon that I'd accuse them of
plagiarism, and they believed him. They may not have even read the OP.
Of course they can be faulted for believing the biggest liar on aapc,
but, hell, they'd almost talked me into believing I'd accused NastyGoon
of plagiarism. Which is completely silly; it isn't plagiarism to take
one line, with changes or not, from another poet's poem and use it in a
poem of one's own.
Here again is what you wrote: "I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism"."
As you can see, you are the one who brought the word "plagiarism" into
this discussion.
I am glad to hear you admit that your charges of plagiarism were
"completely silly."
Perhaps it is best to leave it go at that.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poet
ry.comments On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey
Peabrain (MPP) aka "HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And
I was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening
line of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would
be something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
I'm looking forward to finding out more details on the Robert Creeley
poem.
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025 23:59:37 +0000, NancyGene wrote:
Thank you, Michael. We have strong doubts that a poem titled "The Days
Pile Up" by Robert Creeley exists. Mr. Dance posted one line, which was
not the same as what we wrote in our original poem. We have to assume
that Mr. Dance was so jealous of our talents that he took the first line
of our poem, changed it a bit, and claimed that we plagiarized it,
thinking that no one would challenge him.
--
Robert Creeley definitely existed, he wrote 60 poetry books:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/robert-creeley
HTH and HAND.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 18:51:48 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 15:51:41 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't >>>>> fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.
Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
"the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in >>>> a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling >>>> up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the
difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]
Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.
I believe that I first learned about similes in the 3rd Grade. A simile >>> was defined as a comparison between two seemingly different things (A is >>> like B).
I've never had any interest in labeling the various forms, styles,
components, etc., of poetry.
I know that PJR and Horatio used to do
that quite a bit, and that you were always eager to join in -- only to
be ignored. It always struck me as an exercise in pointlessness.
Poetry isn't about the labels one can attach to it, or the categories
one can pigeonhole it into.
So, unless you're just trolling again, why did you bring it up here?
NancyGene's line is great regardless of whether it's a simile, metaphor, >>> or an example of symbolism.
As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile >>>>>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays >>>>>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not. >>>>>> In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
And just what literary device is that?
"Symbolism" sounds good to me.
It doesn't to me.
Well, I did offer you another option: "metonymy".
A symbol is the substitution of one thing for another. Using
"Yesterdays" to represent "Memories" is closer to being a symbol (it's
actually a metaphor) than "Yesterdays... (are) like ... read newspapers" >>> (which I still think is a simile).
Now this is cute; you began by denying that Creeley's use (in my
interpretation) of "The Days" that are piling up to "unfinished
business" that piles up was a "metaphor" (and claimed it was a simile.
Now you're insisting that NG's use of
"Yesterdays" (in your interpretation) to represent "memories" *is* a
'metaphor. You're doing exactly the same thing you accused me of.
Either Harry Lime is confused or he's trying to confuse you and the
audience.
So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense; >>>>>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
(which you have no intention of identifying)?
I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar.
How can you accuse me of lying it my previous post, when you just
identified it (incorrectly, IMHO) in this one?
I didn't accuse you of "lying it" in your previous post. "HarryLiar" is
just your new nickname (since you didn't like "Lime sock"). If I accuse
you of lying, I'll call you Lying Michael (since that's the search term
for your lies that I'm now using so those can be found.
Where's the best place to search Usenet newsgroup archives now, in your opinion, George?
I assume the Google Groups archives are now longer up to date.
Now, as for their
similes, both are virtually identical: both compare days ("The days" in >>>> one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read" >>>> in the other).
But the days are used to represent *different things* in each.
Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time.
Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific
words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic)
meanings?
HarryLIar, judging by what you think Creeley meant by "The days", you
seem to be the one incapable of recognizing that he was using it had a
metaphorical meaning. (I can now call it "metaphor" even though you
continue to insist that "not a metaphor.")
Harry Lime, as always, just makes it up as he goes along.
aka lies and misrepresentations.
We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely >>>> by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got
NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection
see it as a bad simile.
You see what you want to see, George.
Ho, hum.
That's pretty funny coming from Michael Pendragon aka Harry Lime, who regularly makes things up as he goes along and of course then posts them
in with his usual lies and misrepresentations.
Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you >>>>>> say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense
either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles), >>>>>> "read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.
I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation) >>>>> when entering her house through the yellowing stacks. Old newspapers >>>>> have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of
suffocation.
Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up >>>> to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who
didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers
were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,
just as I do.
And, again, I'm willing to venture that they immediately pick up on the
similarity between stacks of *read* newspapers and memories. One
doesn't need to have had a clinically depressed Great Aunt to recognize
that.
Well, the only way to tell what other readers will think of NastyGoon's
line is if their poem gets any other readers. Good luck to them.
Is the poem even available for reading and commenting on Usenet?
I haven't seen it anywhere here that I know of.
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Again, George Dance was pouting out the similarities in the two lines of poetry.
He was making an observation not an accusation.
George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Again, George Dance was pouting out the similarities in the two lines of poetry.
He was making an observation not an accusation.
HTH and HAND.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
"HarryLime" wrote:
I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler." And I
was right in doing so.
Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
"Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
That's poetry of the highest quality.
The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
"The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
Another revisit, clearly showing George Dance made no accusations, just
an observation.
NancyGene isn't talking about Time.
She's comparing memories (images/events or... stories) of each passing
day to daily newspapers. Since the memories pile up on her speaker,
weighing them down, they compare them to old, *read* newspapers.
That's an original idea --
I'm sure that someone, someplace, sometime, must have compared memories
to yellowing newspapers that can pile up on one and bury them alive. I
can't recall ever having read it before -- but pretty much every thought
has been expressed by someone -- but I can't think of any examples.
Will you be apologizing to me for your false accusations about the Jack Kerouac line, NancyGene?
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