On 11/24/2023 10:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
“The Best Philosophical Science Fiction Books” by Dan Livingston
https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-philosophical-science-fiction-books/
I have read 9 out of the 27:
21. “Hyperion” by Dan Simmons
20. “1984” by George Orwell
18. “Childhood's End” by Arthur C. Clarke
17. “A Canticle for Leibowitz” by Walter M. Miller, Jr.
16. “Foundation” by Isaac Asimov
15. “Dune” by Frank Herbert
14. “Stranger in a Strange Land” by Robert A. Heinlein
13. “Brave New World” by Aldous Huxley
7. “Fahrenheit 451” by Ray Bradbury
I have seen the movie versions of “Annihilation”, “The Giver”, and “Contact”.
I've read the book version of 'Annihilation' and seen the movie. The
movie was a low quality mess. The book was orders of magnitude worse
and the second and third books in the Southern Reach series were in a
full power nose dive from there.
“The Best Philosophical Science Fiction Books” by Dan Livingston
https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-philosophical-science-fiction-books/
I have read 9 out of the 27:
21. “Hyperion” by Dan Simmons
20. “1984” by George Orwell
18. “Childhood's End” by Arthur C. Clarke
17. “A Canticle for Leibowitz” by Walter M. Miller, Jr.
16. “Foundation” by Isaac Asimov
15. “Dune” by Frank Herbert
14. “Stranger in a Strange Land” by Robert A. Heinlein
13. “Brave New World” by Aldous Huxley
7. “Fahrenheit 451” by Ray Bradbury
On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 6:51:36 AM UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:and non-human? I nominate C.J.Cherryh's Chanur series, for the Hani, with the biology of intelligent lions, the more primate-like Mahendo'Sat (even more prone than humans to deal with people, rather than the organisations and authorities they represent
“The Best Philosophical Science Fiction Books” by Dan Livingston
https://best-sci-fi-books.com/the-best-philosophical-science-fiction-books/
I have read 9 out of the 27:
21. “Hyperion” by Dan Simmons
20. “1984” by George Orwell
18. “Childhood's End” by Arthur C. Clarke
17. “A Canticle for Leibowitz” by Walter M. Miller, Jr.
16. “Foundation” by Isaac Asimov
15. “Dune” by Frank Herbert
14. “Stranger in a Strange Land” by Robert A. Heinlein
13. “Brave New World” by Aldous Huxley
7. “Fahrenheit 451” by Ray Bradbury
I have seen the movie versions of “Annihilation”, “The Giver”, and “Contact”.
LynnThe article goes from Philosphical to "what it means to be human" - and I think questions about what it means to be X are usefully answered by comparing X with Y, and preferably Z and theta as well. So which Science Fiction is good at comparing human
Elsewhere, the same line is given as,
""Write me a story about a creature that thinks
as well as a man, or better than a man, but not
like a man."
There is an amount of controversy upon whether
Campbell would allow a creature to be better than
a man. Perhaps that is not the same as to /think/
better than a man.
None of these stories seem particularly philosophical to me. Beings
a short story, "Scream," is on Livingston's list allow me to share a
story of similar length, superior to all of the above in regards to >philosophical exposition - "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbius Tertius" (Borges).
A sample of story snippets are show below. Perhaps they provide
enough insight for readers familiar with some of the Livingston
list to see my point.
Don wrote:
None of these stories seem particularly philosophical to me. BeingsI would definitely disagree with you on Orwell and Huxley. If "'If you
a short story, "Scream," is on Livingston's list allow me to share a
story of similar length, superior to all of the above in regards to >>philosophical exposition - "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbius Tertius" (Borges).
A sample of story snippets are show below. Perhaps they provide
enough insight for readers familiar with some of the Livingston
list to see my point.
want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face
? for ever." is not philosophical what is? (I'd argue that's the most memorable line of Nineteen Eighty-Four though the final line "He loved
Big Brother" must surely rank)
IMHO _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is covert cultural criticism disguised
as fiction. "The floggings will continue until morale improves." Big
Brother stomps Winston until Winston learns to love Big Brother.
IMHO _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is covert cultural criticism disguisedI dunno - I thought Orwell was quite upfront about that. Nineteen
as fiction. "The floggings will continue until morale improves." Big >>Brother stomps Winston until Winston learns to love Big Brother.
EIghty-Four was very strongly in the vein of Wigan Pier, Homage to
Catallonia and Animal Farm (and was the last written of the four)
The Horny Goat wrote:
Don wrote:
IMHO _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is covert cultural criticism disguisedI dunno - I thought Orwell was quite upfront about that. Nineteen
as fiction. "The floggings will continue until morale improves." Big
Brother stomps Winston until Winston learns to love Big Brother.
EIghty-Four was very strongly in the vein of Wigan Pier, Homage to
Catallonia and Animal Farm (and was the last written of the four)
Do you remember any details as to what made you feel Orwell was upfront?
A preface, author's note, study guide, or something similar will help me understand your perspective.
"Such, Such Were The Joys" [1] is non-fictional and about as frank
and upfront as Blair (Orwell) can be. _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is
fiction and less upfront because of it.
Don wrote:
The Horny Goat wrote:Well my impression is that Orwell wasn't being covert or subtle with
Don wrote:
IMHO _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is covert cultural criticism disguisedI dunno - I thought Orwell was quite upfront about that. Nineteen
as fiction. "The floggings will continue until morale improves." Big
Brother stomps Winston until Winston learns to love Big Brother.
EIghty-Four was very strongly in the vein of Wigan Pier, Homage to
Catallonia and Animal Farm (and was the last written of the four)
Do you remember any details as to what made you feel Orwell was upfront?
A preface, author's note, study guide, or something similar will help me
understand your perspective.
"Such, Such Were The Joys" [1] is non-fictional and about as frank
and upfront as Blair (Orwell) can be. _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is
fiction and less upfront because of it.
1984. Maybe you feel that isn't enough on its own to be "upfront" but
he certainly wasn't hiding or disguising his criticism.
On 12/9/2023 6:44 AM, Don wrote:
The Horny Goat wrote:Well my impression is that Orwell wasn't being covert or subtle with
Don wrote:
IMHO _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is covert cultural criticism disguisedI dunno - I thought Orwell was quite upfront about that. Nineteen
as fiction. "The floggings will continue until morale improves." Big
Brother stomps Winston until Winston learns to love Big Brother.
EIghty-Four was very strongly in the vein of Wigan Pier, Homage to
Catallonia and Animal Farm (and was the last written of the four)
Do you remember any details as to what made you feel Orwell was upfront?
A preface, author's note, study guide, or something similar will help me
understand your perspective.
"Such, Such Were The Joys" [1] is non-fictional and about as frank
and upfront as Blair (Orwell) can be. _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is
fiction and less upfront because of it.
1984. Maybe you feel that isn't enough on its own to be "upfront" but
he certainly wasn't hiding or disguising his criticism.
Orwell was clear signted enough and brave enough to write against his = >brothers in the CPSU and their allies, and it is not unreasonable to sugges= >t that 1984 is indeed his vision of a dystopian England under what Orwell a= >pparently viewed as merely a perversion of socialism. - again delving into = >Wikipedia there seems to be no shortage of quotes from Orwell on what he fe= >lt he was trying to say.
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
Orwell was clear signted enough and brave enough to write against his = >>brothers in the CPSU and their allies, and it is not unreasonable to sugges= >>t that 1984 is indeed his vision of a dystopian England under what Orwell a= >>pparently viewed as merely a perversion of socialism. - again delving into = >>Wikipedia there seems to be no shortage of quotes from Orwell on what he fe= >>lt he was trying to say.
Not unreasonable? You mean that "Ingsoc" might possibly be a contraction of English Socialism? Yeah, that seems more than just reasonable...
--scott
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
Orwell was clear signted enough and brave enough to write against his = >>>brothers in the CPSU and their allies, and it is not unreasonable to sugges= >>>t that 1984 is indeed his vision of a dystopian England under what Orwell a= >>>pparently viewed as merely a perversion of socialism. - again delving into = >>>Wikipedia there seems to be no shortage of quotes from Orwell on what he fe= >>>lt he was trying to say.
Not unreasonable? You mean that "Ingsoc" might possibly be a contraction of >> English Socialism? Yeah, that seems more than just reasonable...
Anthony Burgess, in his _1985_, points out that many of the dystopian features >were just everyday life in post-war 1948 austerity Britain,
IMHO _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ is covert cultural criticism disguisedI dunno - I thought Orwell was quite upfront about that. Nineteen
as fiction. "The floggings will continue until morale improves." Big >>>Brother stomps Winston until Winston learns to love Big Brother.
EIghty-Four was very strongly in the vein of Wigan Pier, Homage to
Catallonia and Animal Farm (and was the last written of the four)
Do you remember any details as to what made you feel Orwell was upfront?
A preface, author's note, study guide, or something similar will help me >understand your perspective.
Not unreasonable? You mean that "Ingsoc" might possibly be a contraction of >> English Socialism? Yeah, that seems more than just reasonable...
--scott
Anthony Burgess, in his _1985_, points out that many of the dystopian features >were just everyday life in post-war 1948 austerity Britain,
Anthony Burgess, in his _1985_, points out that many of the dystopian features
were just everyday life in post-war 1948 austerity Britain,
This is true! That's some of the point of 1984.... "We've just come through >a war.... well... what if we were stuck in a war that was eternal?"
--scott
On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 22:50:01 -0000 (UTC), davidd02@tpg.com.au (David
Duffy) wrote:
Not unreasonable? You mean that "Ingsoc" might possibly be a contraction of
English Socialism? Yeah, that seems more than just reasonable...
--scott
Even when I first read it (age 13 or 14) I had figured that part out
Anthony Burgess, in his _1985_, points out that many of the dystopian features
were just everyday life in post-war 1948 austerity Britain,
When my mother was 14 (1948) she and her parents visited the UK. A lot
of the locals figured they were fabulously wealthy because Mom had
nylon stockings - and in 1948 a lot of British women were still
putting makeup on their legs to make them look like stockings. Surely
a young teenage girl wearing stockings had to be from a wealthy family
right?
My grandfather was a commercial fisherman - he was doing all right but
was a very long way from wealthy much less fabulously wealthy. But
Canada had stopped rationing nylon pretty much from VE Day forward
whereas the UK continued rationing nylon stockings till the mid 50s.
(Bottom line is that 1948 Britain had a serious balance of payments
problem whereas the Canadian economy was much like that of the US on a >smaller scale - among other things Canada had forgiven $ 1/2 billion
in British war debt and that's in 1946 dollars)
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