This story was written in 1939 and is set in 1956. It’s about an
immortal Neanderthal - basically he stopped aging around the age of 33.
He most definitely looks the part,
and he’s intelligent, articulate,
knowledgable, knows dozens of languages, etc etc etc,
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences,
and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member
of modern society and also avoid attention?
On 2024-05-07, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
This story was written in 1939 and is set in 1956. It’s about an
immortal Neanderthal - basically he stopped aging around the age of 33.
He most definitely looks the part,
So with modern clothing and grooming he'll blend right in.
I'm sorry, were you under the impression--as a writer in 1939 might
have been--that a Neanderthal would noticeably stand out?
and he’s intelligent, articulate,
knowledgable, knows dozens of languages, etc etc etc,
That we don't know. The language ability of Neanderthals has
attracted plenty of attention, but the anatomical details mostly
hinge on soft tissue that doesn't fossilize, never mind that we
don't know their cognitive abilities. I guess the recent trend is
to _assume_ by default that they were very much like H. sapiens,
but we don't know.
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences,
Bzzt. _If_ he can articulate and cognitively handle H. sapiens
languages, he'll pass.
and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member
of modern society and also avoid attention?
Maintaining fake identities is becoming ever more difficult, I
think.
On 2024-05-07, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
This story was written in 1939 and is set in 1956. It’s about an
immortal Neanderthal - basically he stopped aging around the age of 33.
He most definitely looks the part,
So with modern clothing and grooming he'll blend right in.
I'm sorry, were you under the impression--as a writer in 1939 might
have been--that a Neanderthal would noticeably stand out?
and he’s intelligent, articulate,
knowledgable, knows dozens of languages, etc etc etc,
That we don't know.
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp, and I just (re)read “The Gnarly Man”. It made me wonder ... well, first a quick summary for context:
This story was written in 1939 and is set in 1956. It’s about an
immortal Neanderthal - basically he stopped aging around the age of 33.
and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member
of modern society and also avoid attention?
Maintaining fake identities is becoming ever more difficult, I
think.
So I?m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp, and I[...]
just (re)read ?The Gnarly Man?. It made me wonder ... well, first a
quick summary for context:
This story was written in 1939 and is set in 1956. It?s about an
immortal Neanderthal - basically he stopped aging around the age of
33. He most definitely looks the part, and he?s intelligent,
articulate, knowledgable, knows dozens of languages, etc etc etc,
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences, and with modern technology
and communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a
member of modern society and also avoid attention?
Tony, having some initial thoughts, but curious about yours
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out and
he hadn?t invented false teeth yet.
On Tue, 7 May 2024, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member >>> of modern society and also avoid attention?
Maintaining fake identities is becoming ever more difficult, I
think.
This to me is the most interesting part of the puzzle. Would an immortal
be able to hide his secret with modern technology, ID:s and all?
If the person stuck to remote, rural villages, I see no problem. But
living in a city being a part of society?
I guess, if you are immortal and you don't have to eat, it would be a lot easier perhaps. Then you could just live as a crazy guy on the street in a warm location.
Another road to victory might be the extreme opposite in case the person manages to become a billionaire. That might make hiding and changing identities a lot easier.
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp
In article <v1e01q$3dv0o$1@dont-email.me>,
Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp
Ah, I read that under unusual circumstances: it's one of the books
I had with me at my father's funeral, along with the July 1978 Analog.
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
In article <v1e01q$3dv0o$1@dont-email.me>,
Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp
Ah, I read that under unusual circumstances: it's one of the books
I had with me at my father's funeral, along with the July 1978 Analog.
Was recently reading Dozois' _The Year's Best Science Fiction, 10th edition_ >and there is rather odd De Camp story about a spanish explorer and his
native american wife in China.
I wasn't impressed.
In fact, the first dozen stories were so depressing that I
haven't picked it back up. The Stanwick was just depressing,
the Willis was a screed against menstruation, the De Camp
had odd racial overtones.
I suppose some of the ones I haven't gotten to (like Clark's
_The Hammer of God_) will probably be worth reading. Someday.
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
In article <v1e01q$3dv0o$1@dont-email.me>,
Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp
Ah, I read that under unusual circumstances: it's one of the books
I had with me at my father's funeral, along with the July 1978 Analog.
Was recently reading Dozois' _The Year's Best Science Fiction, 10th edition_ and there is rather odd De Camp story about a spanish explorer and his
native american wife in China.
On 2024-05-08, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Tue, 7 May 2024, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member >>>> of modern society and also avoid attention?
Maintaining fake identities is becoming ever more difficult, I
think.
This to me is the most interesting part of the puzzle. Would an immortal
be able to hide his secret with modern technology, ID:s and all?
If the person stuck to remote, rural villages, I see no problem. But
living in a city being a part of society?
I guess, if you are immortal and you don't have to eat, it would be a lot
easier perhaps. Then you could just live as a crazy guy on the street in a >> warm location.
What? How many millions of undocumented immigrants are living in the US
now?
Another road to victory might be the extreme opposite in case the person
manages to become a billionaire. That might make hiding and changing
identities a lot easier.
It makes some things easier, but others harder. Maintaining usable
access to all that money while being part of society is tough. By
now, it probably has to be illegally (on top of the identity issues)
and money transfers (changing from one form of the wealth to another)
are difficult with the methodology having to constantly change over
the decades.
Chris
So with modern clothing and grooming he'll blend right in.
I'm sorry, were you under the impression--as a writer in 1939 might
have been--that a Neanderthal would noticeably stand out?
I certainly was before a web search for images. Perhaps Neanderthals
also changed considerably in appearance over 360,000 years?
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp, and I just (re)read “The Gnarly Man”. It made me wonder ... well, first a quick
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences, and with modern technology and communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member
of modern society and also avoid attention?
On 5/7/24 12:39, Tony Nance wrote:
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp, and I just
(re)read “The Gnarly Man”. It made me wonder ... well, first a quick
[stuff deleted]
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences, and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a
member of modern society and also avoid attention?
[more stuff deleted]
When I was at UC Berkeley, I was on a varsity team so was often in the varsity locker room. Most of Cal's offensive and defensive linemen could
pass for, or maybe were, neanderthal. They were all wide and hairy and
would on occasion drag their knuckles. So, on a day to day basis, I
don't think they would have any problem passing in modern society.
Of course, a couple were so big that they more resembled Sasquatch. How
a 300 lb. man can be that quick on his feet is mind boggling.
On 5/7/24 12:39, Tony Nance wrote:
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp, and I just
(re)read “The Gnarly Man”. It made me wonder ... well, first a quick
[stuff deleted]
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences, and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a
member of modern society and also avoid attention?
[more stuff deleted]
When I was at UC Berkeley, I was on a varsity team so was often in the varsity locker room. Most of Cal's offensive and defensive linemen could
pass for, or maybe were, neanderthal. They were all wide and hairy and
would on occasion drag their knuckles. So, on a day to day basis, I
don't think they would have any problem passing in modern society.
Of course, a couple were so big that they more resembled Sasquatch. How
a 300 lb. man can be that quick on his feet is mind boggling.
On 5/8/2024 4:33 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 7 May 2024, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member >>>> of modern society and also avoid attention?
Maintaining fake identities is becoming ever more difficult, I
think.
This to me is the most interesting part of the puzzle. Would an immortal be >> able to hide his secret with modern technology, ID:s and all?
If the person stuck to remote, rural villages, I see no problem. But living >> in a city being a part of society?
I guess, if you are immortal and you don't have to eat, it would be a lot
easier perhaps. Then you could just live as a crazy guy on the street in a >> warm location.
Another road to victory might be the extreme opposite in case the person
manages to become a billionaire. That might make hiding and changing
identities a lot easier.
Heinlein addressed hiding in plain sight for very long lived people in his "Methuselah's Children", "Time Enough For Love", and "To Sail Beyond The Sunset" books.
Lynn
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp, and I just
(re)read “The Gnarly Man”. It made me wonder ... well, first a quick
[stuff deleted]
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences, and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member
of modern society and also avoid attention?
[more stuff deleted]
When I was at UC Berkeley, I was on a varsity team so was often in the >varsity locker room. Most of Cal's offensive and defensive linemen could
pass for, or maybe were, neanderthal. They were all wide and hairy and
would on occasion drag their knuckles. So, on a day to day basis, I
don't think they would have any problem passing in modern society.
Of course, a couple were so big that they more resembled Sasquatch. How
a 300 lb. man can be that quick on his feet is mind boggling.
On 2024-05-07, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
This story was written in 1939 and is set in 1956. Its about an
immortal Neanderthal - basically he stopped aging around the age of 33.
He most definitely looks the part,
So with modern clothing and grooming he'll blend right in.
I'm sorry, were you under the impression--as a writer in 1939 might
have been--that a Neanderthal would noticeably stand out?
On 08/05/2024 06.20, Mickmane wrote:
On 08.05.24, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out
and he hadn?t invented false teeth yet.
With your description of the book (which I don't know), I'm now
wondering how his teeth wore out, but not the rest of his body.
Presumably, the friction involved in chewing would do the trick.
Unlike most of the body, teeth aren't self-repairing.
On 5/8/24 10:21 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 5/7/2024 3:39 PM, Tony Nance wrote:
So I’m making my way through The Best of L Sprague de Camp, and I just >>> (re)read “The Gnarly Man”. It made me wonder ... well, first a quick >>> summary for context:
This story was written in 1939 and is set in 1956. It’s about an
immortal Neanderthal - basically he stopped aging around the age of
33. He most definitely looks the part, and he’s intelligent,
articulate, knowledgable, knows dozens of languages, etc etc etc, A
fundamental part of his long-term survival has been to avoid attention
- nothing high profile or noteworthy, move on to a new place every
10-15 years (sooner if necessary), etc.[1]
That said, throughout his 52,000 years, he has pretty consistently
been part of society, not some sort of loner hiding out in the wilds.
Here, we initially find him performing as an ape-man in a carnival
show. During the story he mentions he has also been a blacksmith, a
maker of false teeth (he says he invented them [2]), a wagon driver
(transporting goods), a professional wrestler, an archer in a Briton
army (vs the Romans), a cabbie, and he ran a sawmill. (I may have
missed some.)
And this made me wonder:
Given his obvious physical differences, and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a
member of modern society and also avoid attention?
Tony, having some initial thoughts, but curious about yours
[1] Poul Anderson revisits this mode of survival for immortals in The
Boat of A Million Years. Of course, in Poul’s book, the immortals are
modern-type humans who don’t look any different.
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out and
he hadn’t invented false teeth yet.
PJ Plauger also explored this in 'Child of all Ages'.
There, the protagonist also has the problem of appearing to be an 10
year old girl. Thus she both lacked much agency, and couldn't go too
long before her lack of aging was noticed.
An adult immortal could become quite rich through the effects of
compound interest. However, staying under the government's radar
becomes increasingly difficult.
Agreed - both parts. As it turns out, de Camp did not mention banking or >compound interest in this story, so we don't know what he would have
thought about it.
I feel like throwing in that modern humans have some Neanderthal DNA.
23andMe tells me that I have more markers than 99% of their customer
base, which probably puts me around 2% caveman.
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
I feel like throwing in that modern humans have some Neanderthal DNA. 23andMe tells me that I have more markers than 99% of their customer
base, which probably puts me around 2% caveman.
YADATROT:
That always reminds of The Seeking Sword, a crude weapon somehow
imbued with discrimination between a racial/species distinction that
has become completely lost and merged in the modern genetic pool. But
not for the sword or the entity/power that inhabits it and is,
millennia later, still bent on vengeance.
On 5/9/2024 2:45 PM, Mickmane wrote:
On 09.05.24, Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2024 06.20, Mickmane wrote:
On 08.05.24, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out
and he hadn?t invented false teeth yet.
With your description of the book (which I don't know), I'm now
wondering how his teeth wore out, but not the rest of his body.
Presumably, the friction involved in chewing would do the trick.
Unlike most of the body, teeth aren't self-repairing.
Hrmpf. Either it all repairs itself so he can live forever, or nothing
does and it's some magic keeping him alive, including the teeth. :P
I feel like throwing in that modern humans have some Neanderthal DNA.
23andMe tells me that I have more markers than 99% of their customer
base, which probably puts me around 2% caveman.
On 5/8/24 5:33 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 7 May 2024, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
and with modern technology and
communication being what it is, are there ways he could he stay a member >>>> of modern society and also avoid attention?
Maintaining fake identities is becoming ever more difficult, I
think.
This to me is the most interesting part of the puzzle. Would an immortal be >> able to hide his secret with modern technology, ID:s and all?
If the person stuck to remote, rural villages, I see no problem. But living >> in a city being a part of society?
I guess, if you are immortal and you don't have to eat, it would be a lot
easier perhaps.
It's not explicit in de Camp's story, but from other parts of the story, one could reasonably infer that he needs to eat, could die in a car wreck, etc. That is, he's immortal in the sense that he's not aging, but he's susceptible to the other stuff we die from. Nothing was said about diseases at all, so that's undetermined.
Then you could just live as a crazy guy on the street in a warm location.
Another road to victory might be the extreme opposite in case the person
manages to become a billionaire. That might make hiding and changing
identities a lot easier.
de Camp also never brought up compound interest or banking in general. Then again, it is a short story - 25 pages in my MMPB.
- Tony
On 08/05/2024 16.07, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 5/8/2024 8:08 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
On 08/05/2024 06.20, Mickmane wrote:
On 08.05.24, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out and >>>>> he hadn?t invented false teeth yet.
With your description of the book (which I don't know), I'm now
wondering how his teeth wore out, but not the rest of his body.
Presumably, the friction involved in chewing would do the trick. Unlike
most of the body, teeth aren't self-repairing.
We need to adapt shark technology to humans. Three rows of teeth with new teeth being constantly generated as the old teeth fall out.
Where would we put our tongues?
On 5/9/2024 2:45 PM, Mickmane wrote:
On 09.05.24, Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2024 06.20, Mickmane wrote:
On 08.05.24, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out
and he hadn?t invented false teeth yet.
With your description of the book (which I don't know), I'm now
wondering how his teeth wore out, but not the rest of his body.
Presumably, the friction involved in chewing would do the trick.
Unlike most of the body, teeth aren't self-repairing.
Hrmpf. Either it all repairs itself so he can live forever, or
nothing does and it's some magic keeping him alive, including the
teeth. :P
I feel like throwing in that modern humans have some Neanderthal DNA.
23andMe tells me that I have more markers than 99% of their customer
base,
which probably puts me around 2% caveman.
On 5/9/2024 2:45 PM, Mickmane wrote:
On 09.05.24, Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2024 06.20, Mickmane wrote:
On 08.05.24, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out
and he hadn?t invented false teeth yet.
With your description of the book (which I don't know), I'm now
wondering how his teeth wore out, but not the rest of his body.
Presumably, the friction involved in chewing would do the trick.
Unlike most of the body, teeth aren't self-repairing.
Hrmpf. Either it all repairs itself so he can live forever, or nothing
does and it's some magic keeping him alive, including the teeth. :P
I feel like throwing in that modern humans have some Neanderthal DNA.
23andMe tells me that I have more markers than 99% of their customer
base, which probably puts me around 2% caveman.
In article <v1j03n$pagf$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2024 16.07, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 5/8/2024 8:08 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
On 08/05/2024 06.20, Mickmane wrote:
On 08.05.24, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
[2] He also invented soup, by necessity, since his teeth wore out and >>>>>> he hadn?t invented false teeth yet.
With your description of the book (which I don't know), I'm now
wondering how his teeth wore out, but not the rest of his body.
Presumably, the friction involved in chewing would do the trick. Unlike >>>> most of the body, teeth aren't self-repairing.
We need to adapt shark technology to humans. Three rows of teeth with new teeth being constantly generated as the old teeth fall out.
Where would we put our tongues?
NOW! This is a family newsgroup.
--scott
Note the distinction between the total percent survivng in modern
humans as a whole and the amounts in a given individual. One might
regard this as a Neanderthal DNA survival strategy.
Ironically, it is Northern Europeans who tend to have more. So much
for White people even existing in the "not one drop" sense. And that's ignoring Ghenghis Khan!
On 2024-05-10, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Note the distinction between the total percent survivng in modern
humans as a whole and the amounts in a given individual. One might
regard this as a Neanderthal DNA survival strategy.
Ironically, it is Northern Europeans who tend to have more. So much
for White people even existing in the "not one drop" sense. And that's
ignoring Ghenghis Khan!
Oh, it gets better. Mesolithic European hunter gatherers were dark
skinned. Light skin came with agriculture, both the immigration
of farmers from the Middle East and, presumably, the practice as
such also providing selection pressure. And for a decade or so
we've finally had genetic confirmation of the common sense assumption
that the spread of the Indo-European languages into Europe was
accompanied by a significant migration from the Eurasian steppe.
ObSF:
The temporally transplanted stone age humans in the Norwegian TV
show _Beforeigners_ should not be pasty white. I don't know if the
makers of the show were aware, but presumably the pool of available
actors sets practical limits there.
On 10/05/2024 00:45, Tony Nance wrote:
On 5/8/24 5:33 AM, D wrote:
Then you could just live as a crazy guy on the street in a warm location. >>>
Another road to victory might be the extreme opposite in case the
person manages to become a billionaire. That might make hiding and
changing identities a lot easier.
de Camp also never brought up compound interest or banking in general.
Then again, it is a short story - 25 pages in my MMPB.
- Tony
This probably is covered in... yup: ><https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompoundInterestTimeTravelGambit>
Ironically "The Time Eater" Web site!
I Don't remember it, but there's a cite
of _The Time Machine_ - where apparently
the idea is shot down. The book has had
various editions, so they may vary.
"In one _Red Dwarf_ episode, it is revealed
that Dave left GBP 17.50 in his bank account
on Earth. Three million years have passed,
and he now owns 98% of the world's wealth.
He also left a sausage out on his table
which went mouldy; now the mould covers
seven-eights of the surface of the Earth.
Furthermore, he left the lightbulb on in
his bathroom, racking up a gigantic debt to
the local utility company, which has now
become the ruling faction on Earth and whose
battle fleet is rapidly approaching in an
_Attempt To Collect._". (This is wrapped up
with a cunning plot twist.)
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 546 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 11:58:23 |
| Calls: | 10,387 |
| Calls today: | 2 |
| Files: | 14,061 |
| Messages: | 6,416,703 |