However, LEDs have the advantage over LCDs of being disposable in the landfill (ie, put in the trash as opposed to having to be dropped off
at special locations) when they stop working. Well, if that /is/ an advantage, of course. And both have the advantage over incandescents
that they work a lot longer.
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
On 2024-08-06, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
On 2024-08-06, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
However, LEDs have the advantage over LCDs of being disposable in the
landfill (ie, put in the trash as opposed to having to be dropped off
at special locations) when they stop working. Well, if that /is/ an
advantage, of course. And both have the advantage over incandescents
that they work a lot longer.
LED lights are electronics and are collected along with other
electronics for recycling. At least in Europe.
Actually, according to the signage at the local station for bulk
waste, recycling, etc., LED tubes go into the same container as
fluorescents. Which seems odd.
It sounds like things are changing here (near DC). LED bulbs were
collected for recycling for many years along with the fluorescents,
but that's not the case anymore. They may still be considered mild
hazardous waste (the website is inconsistent now) but not recyclable. Ordinary trash may be fine.
Strings of LED Christmas lights are still recycled, but I assume that's
for the wire rather than the bulbs.
On 8/7/2024 5:49 AM, Chris Buckley wrote:
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]Actual recycling turns out to be a lot more finicky than we were lead to >believe. "Just recycle your plastic!" Which kind of plastic? There
On 2024-08-06, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
On 2024-08-06, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
However, LEDs have the advantage over LCDs of being disposable in the
landfill (ie, put in the trash as opposed to having to be dropped off
at special locations) when they stop working. Well, if that /is/ an
advantage, of course. And both have the advantage over incandescents
that they work a lot longer.
LED lights are electronics and are collected along with other
electronics for recycling. At least in Europe.
Actually, according to the signage at the local station for bulk
waste, recycling, etc., LED tubes go into the same container as
fluorescents. Which seems odd.
It sounds like things are changing here (near DC). LED bulbs were
collected for recycling for many years along with the fluorescents,
but that's not the case anymore. They may still be considered mild
hazardous waste (the website is inconsistent now) but not recyclable.
Ordinary trash may be fine.
Strings of LED Christmas lights are still recycled, but I assume that's
for the wire rather than the bulbs.
are a few hundred different types and a lot of them simply CAN'T be
recycled economically, if at all. Separating metals costs and so on.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 08:28:09 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/7/2024 5:49 AM, Chris Buckley wrote:the
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
On 2024-08-06, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
On 2024-08-06, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
However, LEDs have the advantage over LCDs of being disposable in =
offlandfill (ie, put in the trash as opposed to having to be dropped =
that's=20at special locations) when they stop working. Well, if that /is/ an
advantage, of course. And both have the advantage over incandescents >>>>> that they work a lot longer.
LED lights are electronics and are collected along with other
electronics for recycling. At least in Europe.
Actually, according to the signage at the local station for bulk
waste, recycling, etc., LED tubes go into the same container as
fluorescents. Which seems odd.
It sounds like things are changing here (near DC). LED bulbs were
collected for recycling for many years along with the fluorescents,
but that's not the case anymore. They may still be considered mild
hazardous waste (the website is inconsistent now) but not recyclable.
Ordinary trash may be fine.
=20
Strings of LED Christmas lights are still recycled, but I assume =
for the wire rather than the bulbs.Actual recycling turns out to be a lot more finicky than we were lead to= >=20
=20
believe. "Just recycle your plastic!" Which kind of plastic? There=20 >>are a few hundred different types and a lot of them simply CAN'T be=20 >>recycled economically, if at all. Separating metals costs and so on.
Locally, there is an online list that can be used when doubt exists.
And recycle glyphs cannot always be relied on here.
Something that popped up some years back is recycling films (bread
wrappers, TP wrappers, bottled water plastic holding the bottles in,
certain Amazon mailers, stuff like that) based on returning them to
the grocery store or drugstore (well, some of them, anyway). They are
not allowed in the home recycle bin. And so it goes.
There is some hope: some time back, /Science News/ had an article
about a form of plastic that could be made into a bag, recycled into
its chemical constituents, and remade into a bag -- and after 100
cycles was as strong at the end as it was at the beginning.
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food
cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food
cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food
cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
On 2024-08-14, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food
cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
In addition to the inconvenience of glass, it is not nearly as
economically recyclable as most people think.
Nearby local counties have stopped recycling glass because it just
costs too much. Much cheaper for the county to just throw it away.
An older news report (5 years ago, all I could easily find) among other things says:
The issue is that glass comes in many colors and often breaks,
making it too difficult to separate from other materials. Plus,
there isn’t as big of a market for recycled glass, compared to
other products, such as cardboard and plastics. https://wtop.com/local/2019/05/trashed-can-the-dc-area-clean-up-its-waste-problem/
Chris
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food
cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
As noted below, I explicitly included 4liter/1gallon milk jugs.
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
Cheese was available for purchase before plastic packaging
was invented.
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Why should I pay for your clumsiness?
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
Some plastic jugs have screw on lids, others have press-on. Guess
what happens when you drop the latter?
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
The Trader Joe's produce bags are biodegradable.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Why should I pay for your clumsiness?
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
On 8/14/2024 12:12 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics.   I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food
cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
As noted below, I explicitly included 4liter/1gallon milk jugs.
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
Congratulations. Your jugs join the 9% of plastic that gets recycled
in America.
91% goes to the landfill or incinerator.
[...]
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
I'd challenge that: The primary reason is money.
Yes, lower shipping weight saves money, but I expect
much larger is the savings from not having to maintain
a recycling chain to recover, wash, and reuse bottles
strong enough to sustain multiple uses (you may remember
what old school Coke bottles were like).
I've seen one gallon glass milk jugs, but they're heavy
enough to need included handles. More often I've seen
milk delivery using pint bottles - multiple if the family
requests it.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
Single use plastic shopping bags are an interesting case of
tradeoffs. Banning them absolutely cuts down on unsightly
trash blowing around, but I've read that the 'resusable' bags
sold to replace them are so much heavier that they need to
be used hundreds of times before they pay off the extra
plastic used.
I use cloth bags....
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>>wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food >>>cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
As noted below, I explicitly included 4liter/1gallon milk jugs.
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
Cheese was available for purchase before plastic packaging
was invented.
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Why should I pay for your clumsiness?
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
Some plastic jugs have screw on lids, others have press-on. Guess
what happens when you drop the latter?
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to >>>glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Why should I pay for your clumsiness?
Returnable glass bottles with a deposit on them don't turn into litter.
And if they should turn into litter, kids will collect them to reclaim them.
And, in the modern age where gorilla glass is not expensive to make any >longer, the issue of breakage should be a non-issue. (In the past, of >course, reusable bottles were made thick enough to be very hard to break, >witness returnable coca-cola bottles as an example. But gorilla glass
can make them thinner and cheaper to transport.)
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
The biodegradable plastic bags usually are starch and an unstable
vinyl polymer. The idea is kind of cool, but don't expect to use them
for long term storage. I have kept electronic parts in grocery bags
to discover the bags were disintegrating in my cabinets.
On 2024-08-14, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>>wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food >>>cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
In addition to the inconvenience of glass, it is not nearly as
economically recyclable as most people think.
Nearby local counties have stopped recycling glass because it just
costs too much. Much cheaper for the county to just throw it away.
An older news report (5 years ago, all I could easily find) among other >things says:
The issue is that glass comes in many colors and often breaks,
making it too difficult to separate from other materials. Plus,
there isn’t as big of a market for recycled glass, compared to
other products, such as cardboard and plastics.
https://wtop.com/local/2019/05/trashed-can-the-dc-area-clean-up-its-waste-problem/
Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food
cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin)
or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks,
he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
The plastic and paper bags, of course, were merely /intended/ for
one-time use. They could be, and were by some, used again and again
and again.
I used the same plastic bag for three years, approximately 200 trips to
the grocery store. I kept it wadded up in a corner of my backpack,
where it didn't take up space needed by more valuable things, like books.
They are really quite durable, but I didn't care to run a >test-to-destruction with my groceries and replaced it.
The polyester bags take up far to much space, so I generally don't have
one with me. I still carry a plastic bag.
When I order online my food comes delivered in thirteen or fourteen
bags, so they are basically "single use polyester bags".
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 16:12:35 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some >>>cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
But they were accepted because they were clearly safer.
And, as others have pointed out, the glass ones had smaller volumes
than the larger plastic ones.
And involved paying/recovering deposits. Booze did to, back when I was
so young that picking up others' bottles, draining them and washing
the barf off them, and turning them in was a way to get pocket change.
But that was long ago.
But not milk. Those were delivered/recovered by a delivery driver on a
daily (or near-daily) basis.
On 14 Aug 2024 17:35:55 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:
An older news report (5 years ago, all I could easily find) among other >>things says:
The issue is that glass comes in many colors and often breaks,
making it too difficult to separate from other materials. Plus,
there isn=92t as big of a market for recycled glass, compared to
other products, such as cardboard and plastics. >>https://wtop.com/local/2019/05/trashed-can-the-dc-area-clean-up-its-wast= >e-problem/
As others have noted, traditionally, glass bottles have been /reused/,
not recycled. The whole deposit folderol is based on reuse.
Here in Seattle, broken glass is garbage. At least some intact glass
objects are recyclable, IIRC (I don't have occasion to get rid of
intact glass objects very often, so it's been a while since I
checked).
On 8/14/2024 9:13 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 8/14/2024 9:44 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 8/14/2024 12:12 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:I use cloth bags....
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> >>>>> wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>>>>> wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics.   I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food >>>>>> cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
As noted below, I explicitly included 4liter/1gallon milk jugs.
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin) >>>>>> or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
Congratulations. Your jugs join the 9% of plastic that gets recycled
in America.
91% goes to the landfill or incinerator.
[...]
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some >>>>> cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
I'd challenge that: The primary reason is money.
Yes, lower shipping weight saves money, but I expect
much larger is the savings from not having to maintain
a recycling chain to recover, wash, and reuse bottles
strong enough to sustain multiple uses (you may remember
what old school Coke bottles were like).
I've seen one gallon glass milk jugs, but they're heavy
enough to need included handles. More often I've seen
milk delivery using pint bottles - multiple if the family
requests it.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
Single use plastic shopping bags are an interesting case of
tradeoffs. Banning them absolutely cuts down on unsightly
trash blowing around, but I've read that the 'resusable' bags
sold to replace them are so much heavier that they need to
be used hundreds of times before they pay off the extra
plastic used.
What cloth? Is it a natural fiber? Or is it polyester/dacron, etc?
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
pt
On 8/14/2024 9:13 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 8/14/2024 9:44 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 8/14/2024 12:12 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:I use cloth bags....
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> >>>>> wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>>>>> wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics.   I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food >>>>>> cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
As noted below, I explicitly included 4liter/1gallon milk jugs.
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin) >>>>>> or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
Congratulations. Your jugs join the 9% of plastic that gets recycled
in America.
91% goes to the landfill or incinerator.
[...]
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some >>>>> cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
I'd challenge that: The primary reason is money.
Yes, lower shipping weight saves money, but I expect
much larger is the savings from not having to maintain
a recycling chain to recover, wash, and reuse bottles
strong enough to sustain multiple uses (you may remember
what old school Coke bottles were like).
I've seen one gallon glass milk jugs, but they're heavy
enough to need included handles. More often I've seen
milk delivery using pint bottles - multiple if the family
requests it.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
Single use plastic shopping bags are an interesting case of
tradeoffs. Banning them absolutely cuts down on unsightly
trash blowing around, but I've read that the 'resusable' bags
sold to replace them are so much heavier that they need to
be used hundreds of times before they pay off the extra
plastic used.
What cloth? Is it a natural fiber? Or is it polyester/dacron, etc?
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
On 15 Aug 2024 00:21:40 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks, >>>> he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Why should I pay for your clumsiness?
Returnable glass bottles with a deposit on them don't turn into litter.
And if they should turn into litter, kids will collect them to reclaim them. >>
And, in the modern age where gorilla glass is not expensive to make any
longer, the issue of breakage should be a non-issue. (In the past, of
course, reusable bottles were made thick enough to be very hard to break,
witness returnable coca-cola bottles as an example. But gorilla glass
can make them thinner and cheaper to transport.)
Try it and see if the market will buy it. Or if plastic is so strongly preferred that glass is purchased only if no alternative exists.
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
The biodegradable plastic bags usually are starch and an unstable
vinyl polymer. The idea is kind of cool, but don't expect to use them
for long term storage. I have kept electronic parts in grocery bags
to discover the bags were disintegrating in my cabinets.
I was appalled to find that the biodegradable bags that I bought
(together with a small bin with lots of space in the sides to keep the
smell down) when the fad first started have long-since degraded in a
closed box sitting on a shelf which is mostly kept in the dark. When I
was told to bag my trash, I ended up buying plastic garbage bags
because I couldn't anything else locally and I don't want to buy 1000 biodegradable bags and find then unusable aftor only 20 or so have
been used. Once bitten, twice shy.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler >><dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
On 8/15/24 09:03, Paul S Person wrote:
On 15 Aug 2024 00:21:40 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks, >>>>> he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Why should I pay for your clumsiness?
Returnable glass bottles with a deposit on them don't turn into litter.
And if they should turn into litter, kids will collect them to reclaim them.
And, in the modern age where gorilla glass is not expensive to make any
longer, the issue of breakage should be a non-issue. (In the past, of
course, reusable bottles were made thick enough to be very hard to break, >>> witness returnable coca-cola bottles as an example. But gorilla glass
can make them thinner and cheaper to transport.)
Try it and see if the market will buy it. Or if plastic is so strongly
preferred that glass is purchased only if no alternative exists.
The Trader Joes produce bags are biodegradable.
The biodegradable plastic bags usually are starch and an unstable
vinyl polymer. The idea is kind of cool, but don't expect to use them
for long term storage. I have kept electronic parts in grocery bags
to discover the bags were disintegrating in my cabinets.
Such bags are not meant for storage of electronic or hard
goods I have ascertained over years of experience and I use the plastic
vial that my medications come in for small parts or the anti-static bags
I buy locally or via mail order. I also long ago when I was more active >invested in small plastic cabinet to keep screws, nails and hard parts in.
I was appalled to find that the biodegradable bags that I bought
(together with a small bin with lots of space in the sides to keep the
smell down) when the fad first started have long-since degraded in a
closed box sitting on a shelf which is mostly kept in the dark. When I
was told to bag my trash, I ended up buying plastic garbage bags
because I couldn't anything else locally and I don't want to buy 1000
biodegradable bags and find then unusable aftor only 20 or so have
been used. Once bitten, twice shy.
Well my biodegradable bags in the boxes they come in sit on
top of my refrigerators. I live alone in a Studio Apartment and take
out bags of fruit and vegetable waste several times a week to keep the >insects and odor down. In San Francisco this stuff goes to a
Compostable bin. For other trash I use non-biodegradable bags with odor >suppression and that also carries out the animal food waste produced.
Paper and other recyclable materials go into their own bins.
I buy the bags i use locally in boxes of about 25 bags.
Buying a lot of bags is asking for losses.
Now whether or not the recycling is efficient I do not know
but that is the business of the city contractors picking up and
emptying these bins.
On 8/14/2024 9:13 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
I use cloth bags....
What cloth? Is it a natural fiber? Or is it polyester/dacron, etc?
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 16:12:35 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>wrote:
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some >>>>cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
But they were accepted because they were clearly safer.
And, as others have pointed out, the glass ones had smaller volumes
than the larger plastic ones.
And involved paying/recovering deposits. Booze did to, back when I was
so young that picking up others' bottles, draining them and washing
the barf off them, and turning them in was a way to get pocket change.
But that was long ago.
But not milk. Those were delivered/recovered by a delivery driver on a >>daily (or near-daily) basis.
And milk delivery worked well for centuries. It may be somewhat less convenient
(unless delivery returns) than disposable single-use plastic
jugs, but c'est la vie.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On 14 Aug 2024 17:35:55 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:
An older news report (5 years ago, all I could easily find) among other >>>things says:
The issue is that glass comes in many colors and often breaks,
making it too difficult to separate from other materials. Plus,
there isn=92t as big of a market for recycled glass, compared to
other products, such as cardboard and plastics. >>>https://wtop.com/local/2019/05/trashed-can-the-dc-area-clean-up-its-wast= >>e-problem/
As others have noted, traditionally, glass bottles have been /reused/,
not recycled. The whole deposit folderol is based on reuse.
Here in Seattle, broken glass is garbage. At least some intact glass >>objects are recyclable, IIRC (I don't have occasion to get rid of
intact glass objects very often, so it's been a while since I
checked).
Whereas I just placed a glass juice jar in the recycling bin
this morning.
On 8/15/2024 11:14 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 16:40:32 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul S Person wrote:I've done that in the past. It can be handy when I buy something that
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:15:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 18:35:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>>>> wrote:
The only solution is to completely eliminate single-use
plastics. I'd even go so far as to include milk and
juice jugs in that ban (glass is far more recyclable
and aside shipping weight, similar in cost).
Paper milk cartons can eliminate the plastic lid.
What does "single use" mean? I understand in the context of fast food >>>>> cups but how about less common items like those 4 liter milk jugs I
get my milk in (and generally put out each week in the recycling bin) >>>>> or similar such items - for instance my cheddar comes wrapped in
plastic and once the cheese is eaten, that plastic wrapper isn't
getting used again <grin>
He is explicitly including milk and juice, suggesting we go back to
glass.
Which is fine, so long as, when I drop one on the floor and it breaks, >>>> he comes over, cleans up the mess, and gives me my money back.
Plastic jugs don't break as often, although I suppose you could get
one to do so if you tried hard enough.
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
Interestingly, while, until they were banned, one-time-use plastic
shopping bags were taxed (as were and still are papter one-time-use
paper bags), smaller bags used to contain fruits and veggies were
exempt, despite clearly being one-time-use.
The plastic and paper bags, of course, were merely /intended/ for
one-time use. They could be, and were by some, used again and again
and again.
I used the same plastic bag for three years, approximately 200 trips to
the grocery store. I kept it wadded up in a corner of my backpack,
where it didn't take up space needed by more valuable things, like books. >>
won't fit in the shoulder bag, or that I want to keep out for some
reason.
They are really quite durable, but I didn't care to run a
test-to-destruction with my groceries and replaced it.
I did this for years with an old Subway plastic bag. Occasionally, it
would be confiscated and a new bag provided. Now they use paper, so it
can be recycled or composted, depending on tightly the contents are
wrapped.
The polyester bags take up far to much space, so I generally don't have
one with me. I still carry a plastic bag.
I have a small one that a Dex phone book came in a decade or two ago
that I use. That folds up small enough to fit in my shoulder bag.
When I order online my food comes delivered in thirteen or fourteen
bags, so they are basically "single use polyester bags".
Good point.
What is a "phone book" ?
Whereas I just placed a glass juice jar in the recycling bin
this morning.
Actually, thinking about it overnight, it occurred to me that my
strawberry preserves still come in a glass jar. It not very large or
very heavy, however. So I do regularly dispose of one glass object in
the recycle bin. Washed, dried, and lid attached [1].
The mustard used to do the same, but a while back (5 yrs? 10?) it went
to plastic.
[1] I tend to stress this because, until 10 or 15 or so years ago lids
could only be recycled if they were ferrous metal or larger than 3
inches (something to do with jamming the grinders). Bottle caps were
not at all. But then lids/caps still attached to the bottle/jar became recyclable regardless of size. Whether this represented any particular /desire/ to process them or whether it was just to keep them from
messing up the grinders by being attached to something larger I have
no idea.
[1] I tend to stress this because, until 10 or 15 or so years ago lidsInteresting. In our area, lids/tops can be recycled but they need to be separated from the jar or bottle, even if both are plastic. Different
could only be recycled if they were ferrous metal or larger than 3
inches (something to do with jamming the grinders). Bottle caps were
not at all. But then lids/caps still attached to the bottle/jar became
recyclable regardless of size. Whether this represented any particular
/desire/ to process them or whether it was just to keep them from
messing up the grinders by being attached to something larger I have
no idea.
sorts of plastics are recycled separately.
Chris
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted
elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
To, yes, but from is a cardiac arrest waiting to happen. Or a fall,
given the state of the sidewalks here in winter. But then, why not both?
I regret to say that I go less often, buy more, and take a taxi back. At
$10 the taxi fare doesn't increase the cost of a $250 purchase by that
much. Much less than the delivery fee.
My walk back takes me past a house where music lessons are given. There
is usually a parent in a car outside, waiting for their child. Last
time I walked by the parent offered me a lift, I declined with thanks as
my house was just around the corner. As I rounded the corner he drove
up, just to make sure. Not only offered to help, but followed up on it.
I know that there are a lot of good people out there, but it made my day
to meet one.
On 2024-08-16, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Whereas I just placed a glass juice jar in the recycling bin
this morning.
Actually, thinking about it overnight, it occurred to me that my
strawberry preserves still come in a glass jar. It not very large or
very heavy, however. So I do regularly dispose of one glass object in
the recycle bin. Washed, dried, and lid attached [1].
The mustard used to do the same, but a while back (5 yrs? 10?) it went
to plastic.
[1] I tend to stress this because, until 10 or 15 or so years ago lids
could only be recycled if they were ferrous metal or larger than 3
inches (something to do with jamming the grinders). Bottle caps were
not at all. But then lids/caps still attached to the bottle/jar became
recyclable regardless of size. Whether this represented any particular
/desire/ to process them or whether it was just to keep them from
messing up the grinders by being attached to something larger I have
no idea.
Interesting. In our area, lids/tops can be recycled but they need to be >separated from the jar or bottle, even if both are plastic. Different
sorts of plastics are recycled separately.
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted
elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
This is the truth! I try to make it a point to walk to the store and walk >back with the bags for the exercise aspect.
I call it "micro-exercise" by which I mean all the small physical things
in life, that adds to our calory burn such as:
1. Walking to the store.
2. Carrying groceries.
3. Walking back.
4. Taking the stairs.
5. Walking to business meetings (if they are a maximum of 20-25 minutes >away).
It is my firm belief that this has a positive effect on my health. It is >also my firm belief, that calling home food, using electric
bikes/scooters, taking the elevator, in the aggregate detracts from ones >health.
On 8/16/2024 11:56 AM, Chris Buckley wrote:
[1] I tend to stress this because, until 10 or 15 or so years ago lidsInteresting. In our area, lids/tops can be recycled but they need to be
could only be recycled if they were ferrous metal or larger than 3
inches (something to do with jamming the grinders). Bottle caps were
not at all. But then lids/caps still attached to the bottle/jar became
recyclable regardless of size. Whether this represented any particular
/desire/ to process them or whether it was just to keep them from
messing up the grinders by being attached to something larger I have
no idea.
separated from the jar or bottle, even if both are plastic. Different
sorts of plastics are recycled separately.
Chris
I moved from one place where they had to be separated to a location
where they don't. Thing is that the move wasn't that far and I'm pretty >sure the two waste management companies use the same recycling facility.
What gets me is that many bottles of spray cleaners come with a wrap
over the bottle. The wrap has all the printing, the actual bottle is
just a clear bottle. The wrap is NOT recyclable and must be removed
before putting the bottle in the recycling.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:21:27 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted
elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
This is the truth! I try to make it a point to walk to the store and walk
back with the bags for the exercise aspect.
I call it "micro-exercise" by which I mean all the small physical things
in life, that adds to our calory burn such as:
1. Walking to the store.
2. Carrying groceries.
3. Walking back.
4. Taking the stairs.
5. Walking to business meetings (if they are a maximum of 20-25 minutes
away).
It is my firm belief that this has a positive effect on my health. It is
also my firm belief, that calling home food, using electric
bikes/scooters, taking the elevator, in the aggregate detracts from ones
health.
News articles on exercise go in cycles (no pun intended).
For a while, you /must/ have a special time (and special clothes) and
spend at least X hours a week for it to count.
Then, when it becomes apparent that that message merely discourages
people, we get minimum daily step counts, with no special stuff
needed.
Finally, the number of steps required to count decreases and we reach
the attitude we appear to share: everyday activity works. Or at least
helps.
Interestingly, I rarely see diet mentioned in those articles. Have the
Gurus of Health given up on getting people to eat sensibly and so
become fully focused on exercise? At least they tend to stress
cardiovascular exercise rather than calisthenics.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:21:27 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted
elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
This is the truth! I try to make it a point to walk to the store and walk
back with the bags for the exercise aspect.
I call it "micro-exercise" by which I mean all the small physical things
in life, that adds to our calory burn such as:
1. Walking to the store.
2. Carrying groceries.
3. Walking back.
4. Taking the stairs.
5. Walking to business meetings (if they are a maximum of 20-25 minutes
away).
It is my firm belief that this has a positive effect on my health. It is
also my firm belief, that calling home food, using electric
bikes/scooters, taking the elevator, in the aggregate detracts from ones
health.
News articles on exercise go in cycles (no pun intended).
For a while, you /must/ have a special time (and special clothes) and
spend at least X hours a week for it to count.
Then, when it becomes apparent that that message merely discourages
people, we get minimum daily step counts, with no special stuff
needed.
Finally, the number of steps required to count decreases and we reach
the attitude we appear to share: everyday activity works. Or at least
helps.
Interestingly, I rarely see diet mentioned in those articles. Have the
Gurus of Health given up on getting people to eat sensibly and so
become fully focused on exercise? At least they tend to stress
cardiovascular exercise rather than calisthenics.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:21:27 +0200, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted
elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
This is the truth! I try to make it a point to walk to the store and walk >>> back with the bags for the exercise aspect.
I call it "micro-exercise" by which I mean all the small physical things >>> in life, that adds to our calory burn such as:
1. Walking to the store.
2. Carrying groceries.
3. Walking back.
4. Taking the stairs.
5. Walking to business meetings (if they are a maximum of 20-25 minutes
away).
It is my firm belief that this has a positive effect on my health. It is >>> also my firm belief, that calling home food, using electric
bikes/scooters, taking the elevator, in the aggregate detracts from ones >>> health.
News articles on exercise go in cycles (no pun intended).
For a while, you /must/ have a special time (and special clothes) and
spend at least X hours a week for it to count.
Then, when it becomes apparent that that message merely discourages
people, we get minimum daily step counts, with no special stuff
needed.
Finally, the number of steps required to count decreases and we reach
the attitude we appear to share: everyday activity works. Or at least
helps.
Interestingly, I rarely see diet mentioned in those articles. Have the
Gurus of Health given up on getting people to eat sensibly and so
become fully focused on exercise? At least they tend to stress
cardiovascular exercise rather than calisthenics.
I have never followed any of this, and generally don't read health
articles. It seems to me, as you say, that one month X is bad for you,
and then a month later X is good for you, and then no one knows.
So I'll just do what I enjoy and try to keep moderately active, and so
far, basing it on the comments of my doctor, it seems as if it is
working! ;)
When I was younger I did train boxing, which is probably the single
best exercise I have ever encountered. And no, one does not have to
spar in boxing, and if one does, one can choose to do so softly or
without head shots.
I don't know if I will make it or not and frankly I do not much
care after 41 years of Systemic Exertional Intolerance Disease aka Post-Virual Fatigue Syndrome which is like being about a Zombie without
any appetite for brains.
On 18 Aug 2024 at 01:16:46 BST, "Bobbie Sellers" ><blissInSanFrancisco@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
I don't know if I will make it or not and frankly I do not much
care after 41 years of Systemic Exertional Intolerance Disease aka
Post-Virual Fatigue Syndrome which is like being about a Zombie without
any appetite for brains.
I get that whenever I'm on blood pressure meds, can barely sit upright
on a sofa. But when I'm off them I have other obvious issues. Sucks all
the balls. Good luck!
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:06:58 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
Despite being washed in hot water with bleach, my reusable bags were
well over thirty years old when I set them next to a leaking battery
and they all got large holes in the bottom.
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:06:58 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
Despite being washed in hot water with bleach, my reusable bags were
well over thirty years old when I set them next to a leaking battery
and they all got large holes in the bottom.
On 8/20/2024 4:34 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:06:58 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
Despite being washed in hot water with bleach, my reusable bags were
well over thirty years old when I set them next to a leaking battery
and they all got large holes in the bottom.
Note that it is not the age, but how many times you reuse them. I think
common knowledge is that you must use one of those reusables about 10 000
times in order for it to come out favourably against single use plastic
bags.
Needless to say, many hip and woke teenagers, probably throw them away
after a month or two when they become dirty or when a new shiny one is
received at the next convention.
https://sites.psu.edu/marabelleolivia/2021/02/25/are-reusable-bags-worth-it/
This site, which is mainly concerned with greenhouse gases, points
out that all the reusables use more resources per bag than the
single use ones, but works out the break-even points:
Paper: 4 uses
Polypropylene: 14
Cotton: 173
So, it looks like the plastic reusables are a lot better than I
thought.
pt
On 8/20/2024 4:34 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:06:58 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
Despite being washed in hot water with bleach, my reusable bags were
well over thirty years old when I set them next to a leaking battery
and they all got large holes in the bottom.
Note that it is not the age, but how many times you reuse them. I
think common knowledge is that you must use one of those reusables
about 10 000 times in order for it to come out favourably against
single use plastic bags.
Needless to say, many hip and woke teenagers, probably throw them away
after a month or two when they become dirty or when a new shiny one is
received at the next convention.
https://sites.psu.edu/marabelleolivia/2021/02/25/are-reusable-bags-worth-it/
This site, which is mainly concerned with greenhouse gases, points
out that all the reusables use more resources per bag than the
single use ones, but works out the break-even points:
Paper: 4 uses
Polypropylene: 14
Cotton: 173
So, it looks like the plastic reusables are a lot better than I
thought.
pt
On 8/20/2024 4:45 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/20/24 09:23, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 8/20/2024 4:34 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:06:58 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
If its a plastic fiber, you've done little or nothing to reduce
plastic waste. How many single-use bags are required to equal the
weight of your reusable?
Despite being washed in hot water with bleach, my reusable bags were >>>>> well over thirty years old when I set them next to a leaking battery >>>>> and they all got large holes in the bottom.
Note that it is not the age, but how many times you reuse them. I
think common knowledge is that you must use one of those reusables
about 10 000 times in order for it to come out favourably against
single use plastic bags.
Needless to say, many hip and woke teenagers, probably throw them
away after a month or two when they become dirty or when a new shiny
one is received at the next convention.
https://sites.psu.edu/marabelleolivia/2021/02/25/are-reusable-bags-
worth-it/
This site, which is mainly concerned with greenhouse gases, points
out that all the reusables use more resources per bag than the
single use ones, but works out the break-even points:
Paper: 4 uses
Polypropylene: 14
Cotton: 173
So, it looks like the plastic reusables are a lot better than I
thought.
pt
     But they do not beat the natural fibre bags at all.
Huh?
The numbers say that you'll produce less pollution using a
cotton bag than single use plastic ones only if you use the
cotton one 173 times.
Now, that *is* in line with reality - people can use them that
many times. But I was very surprised to see that the polypropylene
bags needed only 14 uses to do so.
I fully expected to see cotton producing less pollution than the polypropylene, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Wash them? Oh, you're putting things that can leak into them.
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 08:11:46 -0700, Paul S Person ><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Wash them? Oh, you're putting things that can leak into them.
They did get leaked on now and again, but mostly it's just that dirt >accumulates during a few dozen uses.
And one washes food containers more often than garments.
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 22:12:26 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 08:11:46 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Wash them? Oh, you're putting things that can leak into them.
They did get leaked on now and again, but mostly it's just that dirt
accumulates during a few dozen uses.
Dave Berry once articulated the theory that women can see dirt that
men can not.
Which is to say that I don't see any dirt accumulating on mine.
And one washes food containers more often than garments.
Yes indeed; the two I use get washed every day.
But then, fruits/veggies /do/ tend to leave bits behind.
On 8/21/24 08:25, Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 22:12:26 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 08:11:46 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Wash them? Oh, you're putting things that can leak into them.
They did get leaked on now and again, but mostly it's just that dirt
accumulates during a few dozen uses.
Dave Berry once articulated the theory that women can see dirt that
men can not.
Men can see it too with practice and attention to details.
Which is to say that I don't see any dirt accumulating on mine.
And one washes food containers more often than garments.
Yes indeed; the two I use get washed every day.
But then, fruits/veggies /do/ tend to leave bits behind.
Everything that touches anything tends to leave bits
behind which with DNA sequencing is why so many criminals
are being apprended later.
~40 years ago my mother was murdered and this year
they found the micreant. He was in prison for attempted
murder, I believe. Trial should start next month.
On 8/14/2024 12:12 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
There is a /reason/ we replaced glass with plastic, at least in some
cases.
The primary reason is shipping weight.
I'd challenge that: The primary reason is money.
Yes, lower shipping weight saves money, but I expect
much larger is the savings from not having to maintain
a recycling chain to recover, wash, and reuse bottles
strong enough to sustain multiple uses (you may remember
what old school Coke bottles were like).
Paul S Person wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:31:43 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul S Person wrote:Walking is aerobic. It strengthens the cardiovascular system.
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted
elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
To, yes, but from is a cardiac arrest waiting to happen. Or a fall,
given the state of the sidewalks here in winter. But then, why not both? >>
I am aware of this, but in current circumstances I must be careful.
OTOH, the "freezing rain" we had a while back defeated me. I'd never
encountered it before. I'll be paying attention to it in the future.
After one particularly gentle freezing rain event I was standing on a sidewalk and slowly sliding down a hill I had never known was there.
Seemed flat to the eye, but not to gravity.
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:22:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:13:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
<snippo mucho, response is to plastic reusable shopping bags>
I use cloth bags....
I have a box with handles (e.g. a document storage box) that
I keep in the car. Tell the checker to leave everything in
the cart and transfer from cart to box at car.
No bags necessary.
I'm non-motorized, so I not only need bags (currently boxes, as noted
elsewhere) but need exactly two of them (having exactly two arms to
tote them with), which affects how much I can buy at one time.
But walking to and (especially) from the store is great exercise!
This is the truth! I try to make it a point to walk to the store and
walk back with the bags for the exercise aspect.
I call it "micro-exercise" by which I mean all the small physical things
in life, that adds to our calory burn such as:
1. Walking to the store.
2. Carrying groceries.
3. Walking back.
4. Taking the stairs.
5. Walking to business meetings (if they are a maximum of 20-25 minutes away).
It is my firm belief that this has a positive effect on my health. It is
also my firm belief, that calling home food, using electric bikes/
scooters, taking the elevator, in the aggregate detracts from ones health.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 546 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 36:11:38 |
| Calls: | 10,392 |
| Calls today: | 3 |
| Files: | 14,064 |
| Messages: | 6,417,152 |