To Turn the Tide
by S.M. Stirling
https://amzn.to/3CyPIn0

Here Stirling returns to the sort of _Lest Darkness Fall_ story he
told in his "Island In The Sea Of Time" series twenty years ago,
and though this is not a bad story, he did it a bit better there.

In a time-line which seems to have diverged from ours in 2020, a
group of five American historians, all experts on the Roman era,
are lured to Vienna under false pretenses. In fact their Austrian
physicist host has invented a working time machine, and (apparently)
wants to do a Mr. Atoz to Principate Rome to escape the (pretty
much clearly coming) nuclear holocaust. We don't know much about
him aside from his being a manipulative jerk because just as the
American team arrives, the balloon goes up, and he activates the
machine just as the fireball is knocking out the windows, killing
him and stranding our heroes (still physically in the same place)
in Provincia Pannonia Superior in June 165 A.D..

Our party, stunned unconscious, and not fully understanding what
has happened is a mixed group: An older (but not old) Army veteran
professor, and four graduate students including two men and two
women. As is necessary in this type of story (if it is not to be
short & depressing) they have incredible luck: They meet an
honest man -- A middling prosperous & ambitious Jewish trader, educated
and knowledgeable about Roman society, but enough apart from it to
not feel any special compulsion to take them to the authorities.
With his backing (abetted by the wealth & supplies provided by the
dead physicist), the group sets up shop on a Pannonian plantation
and begins to work to try and change the future they just escaped. Complicating matters no little bit is that they have arrived on
site just before the start of the Marcomannic wars and that anything significant they do is bound eventually to bring the attention of
Marcus Aurelius, who is no dummy.

I enjoyed this book, and will read the follow-on. It was nice
to have a lot of hats tipped towards Martin Padway, as the group
has all naturally read LDF, and I enjoyed the explication (and
examples) of the two types of possible technological developments:
A) The stuff the Romans could do if they thought of it (wheel-barrows, stirrups, chimneys) and B) The stuff that would take a lot more
working up to, like steam engines.

That said, as I intimated above, I believe _Island In The Sea Of Time_
is a better book, as the characters were more strongly drawn there,
or at least that's how I remember it. Here they are a bit stereotyped,
and subordinate to the bootstrapping tech. The professor has a bit
of a character arc, the others less so. There is also not a lot
of establishment as to why the group should all stay together, and
why the "change the future" project should be their common goal.
Yes, they are all fish out of water, but three of them, at least,
do find love on the local economy and could easily take their
wealth and "go native". To be fair, Stirling does make the point
several times that Rome is just the best thing going, not that
it is "good" by uptime standards, but I think some more debate
before everyone falls in line would be welcome.

Sanctuary (Roman's Chronicles Book 1)
by Ilona Andrews
https://amzn.to/4hP6Bsn

Roman is a Russian Black Volhv, part of the improbably large Atlanta
area Russian magical community in Andrews' "Kate Daniel" setting.
As you would expect, being the servant of a dark god (not the same
thing, exactly, as an evil god) is no bed of roses, and thus Roman
finds himself, unsurprisingly, alone in his remote cottage for the
holidays once more. Furthermore, said god is on the outs with his
wife and Roman finds himself (literally) roped into his efforts to
make amends, something that is making his sleep as restive as his
holidays are less than festive...

To some extent Roman is used to all that and it's his status quo.
What is *not* usual is a teenaged boy showing up on his doorstep
and asking for "Sanctuary", a Christian concept that is not exactly
part of Roman's Volhv tradition. Nearly dead when Roman takes him
in, the kid is unwilling to say more than his sister is coming
for him. Who she is, exactly, is a (another) mystery, as is the
identity of the powerful magical posse who come to take the boy.
However, if Sanctuary is not part of Roman's tradition, it is
something that, as he notes, he is very good at, and they aren't
getting the kid without a fight.

Do I need to say that an Ilona Andrews book is good? OK, this
book (or novella really) is very good. We have seen Roman before
(he officiated Kate's wedding), but this is the first really
in-depth look at him we have had, and how he stays a good person
in the complicated life he leads. And the sister? That's as
mortifying as anything we could have hoped for.

At least in the ebook there is also a very short sequel story
developing the same themes as Roman's story, and that is also
good.

Simon Magus appears in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES. He created the Gnostic >demiurge. Simon Magus' darkly evil god arguably acts as a bookend to
this story's merely dark god.

CITY OF GOD by St Augustine addresses Christian sanctuary. When
Christian barbarians sacked Hippo they gave quarter by designating
Christian churches as sanctuaries.

Don wrote:

<snippo, I'm not sure what this was actually about>

Simon Magus appears in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES. He created the Gnostic >>demiurge. Simon Magus' darkly evil god arguably acts as a bookend to
this story's merely dark god.

Per <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demiurge>, the
Demiurge was a Platonic or a Gnostic subordinate deity. Since Plotinus devotes an entire lecture to attacking the Gostics as misunderstanding Platonism, I suggest that Plato invented the concept and Simon Magus
and stole it.

Incidentally, the volume in the collection named /Great Books of the
Western World/ devoted to Ptolemy, Copernicus, and Kepler has an essay between Ptolemy and Copernicus which points out that, if you use the
figures given in Plato's /Timeus/, the ratios of the wanderer's
distances from the Central Fire are similar to those of the planets'
mean distances from the Sun. Suggesting that Plato had a heliocentric
view of the World.

As to Simon Magus, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus> notes
that the Early Fathers did attribute Gnosticism to him but modern
scholars are divided on whether he actually was a Gnostic or was
merely regarded as one by the Church Fathers. All of whom, since Simon
Magus and Peter the Apostle were contemporaries, were writing a
century or two after he died.

CITY OF GOD by St Augustine addresses Christian sanctuary. When
Christian barbarians sacked Hippo they gave quarter by designating >>Christian churches as sanctuaries.

Huh. I thought the idea was that Christians live in the Church, the
City of God, and Pagans live in the World, the City of Man.

Whig history's another thing. It posits a glorious present where
things keep getting better all the time. Tomorrow will be better than
ever.

BTW, Toynbee somewhere states that the Modern Era ended when WWI
began. So in some sense the Post-modern Era has been ongoing for over
a century. And "modernism" in (Christian) theology is not necessarily
the same as "modernism" in philosophy.=20

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

BTW, Toynbee somewhere states that the Modern Era ended when WWI
began. So in some sense the Post-modern Era has been ongoing for over
a century. And "modernism" in (Christian) theology is not necessarily
the same as "modernism" in philosophy.=20

This puts us in the post-postmodern world I believe.

On 2/23/25 1:00 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

Sanctuary (Roman's Chronicles Book 1)
by Ilona Andrews
https://amzn.to/4hP6Bsn

Roman is a Russian Black Volhv, part of the improbably large Atlanta
area Russian magical community in Andrews' "Kate Daniel" setting.
As you would expect, being the servant of a dark god (not the same
thing, exactly, as an evil god) is no bed of roses, and thus Roman
finds himself, unsurprisingly, alone in his remote cottage for the
holidays once more.  Furthermore, said god is on the outs with his
wife and Roman finds himself (literally) roped into his efforts to
make amends, something that is making his sleep as restive as his
holidays are less than festive...

To some extent Roman is used to all that and it's his status quo.
What is *not* usual is a teenaged boy showing up on his doorstep
and asking for "Sanctuary", a Christian concept that is not exactly
part of Roman's Volhv tradition.  Nearly dead when Roman takes him
in, the kid is unwilling to say more than his sister is coming
for him.  Who she is, exactly, is a (another) mystery, as is the
identity of the powerful magical posse who come to take the boy.
However, if Sanctuary is not part of Roman's tradition, it is
something that, as he notes, he is very good at, and they aren't
getting the kid without a fight.

Do I need to say that an Ilona Andrews book is good?  OK, this
book (or novella really) is very good.  We have seen Roman before
(he officiated Kate's wedding), but this is the first really
in-depth look at him we have had, and how he stays a good person
in the complicated life he leads.  And the sister?  That's as
mortifying as anything we could have hoped for.

At least in the ebook there is also a very short sequel story
developing the same themes as Roman's story, and that is also
good.

Thanks for this - I forgot it was out, and I'm very much looking forward
to reading it. On to one more...

As to Simon Magus, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus> notes
that the Early Fathers did attribute Gnosticism to him but modern
scholars are divided on whether he actually was a Gnostic or was
merely regarded as one by the Church Fathers. All of whom, since Simon
Magus and Peter the Apostle were contemporaries, were writing a
century or two after he died.

On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 08:46:47 -0800, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

As to Simon Magus, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus> notes
that the Early Fathers did attribute Gnosticism to him but modern
scholars are divided on whether he actually was a Gnostic or was
merely regarded as one by the Church Fathers. All of whom, since Simon
Magus and Peter the Apostle were contemporaries, were writing a
century or two after he died.

That's what I remembered and I was therefore mystified by how Simon
Magus could still be around in the time of Marcus Aurelius.

On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 08:46:47 -0800, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

As to Simon Magus, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus> notes
that the Early Fathers did attribute Gnosticism to him but modern
scholars are divided on whether he actually was a Gnostic or was
merely regarded as one by the Church Fathers. All of whom, since Simon
Magus and Peter the Apostle were contemporaries, were writing a
century or two after he died.

That's what I remembered and I was therefore mystified by how Simon
Magus could still be around in the time of Marcus Aurelius.