On 29 Mar 2025 02:29:20 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

In article <vs7cq3$3qcn7$3@dont-email.me>,
Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:

On 3/24/25 12:10 PM, James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance-movements/

Interesting!

I've read the Russell and the Le Guin, and I've seen Red Dawn.

The first Russell I thought of was Wasp, though perhaps that doesn't >>count?[1]

I thought of that one, but decided it doesn't. The guy isn't
a resistent member of the polity, he's a planted saboteur from the
other side.

And the first Heinlein I thought of was TMIAHM.

I believe there is a resistance subplot in _Red Planet_,
settlers vs The Corporation or something like that.

And just because I scrolled by one of the movies yesterday:
I think Harry Potter & Co organized a resistance, especially one
Umbridge took over.[2]

Yes, Harry organized "Dumbledore's Army" which was to some extent
a resistance group. And I wish we had gotten more, or anything,
on Neville & Ginny's resistance activities leading up to "The
Battle Of Hogwarts" rather than endless camping scenes while
our main trio did very little useful.

The camping stuff is even more tedious in the book. This is because
there is no background sound (news) track playing while they are
trumping about.

Of course, to /some/ extent it's needed, so Ron can leave and then
find his way back. And rescue Harry. But still ...

And there are lots of things the later movies omit. I don't miss
Hermione's ELF but I would like to have seen Neville with his parents
in the hospital or the scene (which is in the extras) in Part 1 of
/Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows/ where his aunt points out that,
while /he/ lost his mother, /she/ lost her sister. The films capture
the story, but a lot of stuff is omitted.

Hmm. John Christopher "The Tripods" as long as we're mentioned
juvies, and of course "The Hunger Games". Actually probably
pretty much any juvie dystopia is going to have a resistance
I guess.

--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ted Nolan wrote:

Tony Nance wrote:

James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance-movements/

Interesting!

I've read the Russell and the Le Guin, and I've seen Red Dawn.

The first Russell I thought of was Wasp, though perhaps that doesn't >>count?[1]

I thought of that one, but decided it doesn't. The guy isn't
a resistent member of the polity, he's a planted saboteur from the
other side.

And the first Heinlein I thought of was TMIAHM.

I believe there is a resistance subplot in _Red Planet_,
settlers vs The Corporation or something like that.

And just because I scrolled by one of the movies yesterday:
I think Harry Potter & Co organized a resistance, especially one
Umbridge took over.[2]

Yes, Harry organized "Dumbledore's Army" which was to some extent
a resistance group. And I wish we had gotten more, or anything,
on Neville & Ginny's resistance activities leading up to "The
Battle Of Hogwarts" rather than endless camping scenes while
our main trio did very little useful.

Hmm. John Christopher "The Tripods" as long as we're mentioned
juvies, and of course "The Hunger Games". Actually probably
pretty much any juvie dystopia is going to have a resistance
I guess.

It seems probable given the juvie tendency to rebel.

Off the top of my head, both the Heinlein and the Russell occurred to
me, as well as:

ALONGSIDE NIGHT by Schulman (literally underground)
ATLAS SHRUGGED by Rand (plutocratic inverted underground)
CRYPTONOMICON by Stephenson (data underground)
DUNE, THE EYES OF HEISENBERG, and HELLSTROM'S HIVE by Herbert (the
latter literally underground)
FAHRENHEIT 451 by Bradbury
LANAGUE FEDERATION series by Wilson
LOGAN'S RUN by Nolan
NEW ATLANTIS by Francis "Shakes" Bacon [1] (a scientistic underground)
PERRY RHODAN (sundry settings sometimes literally underground)
THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH by Dick
TRANSISTION by Banks

Stories released in this century:

THE GOLDEN AGE series by Wright
THE HIDDEN TRUTH series by Schantz

At this point my mind mused upon making a shorter list of stories
/lacking/ an underground element.

Note.

[1]

<https://www.spreaker.com/episode/episode-10-all-the-evidence-you-need-to-know-that-bacon-was-shakespeare--56066545>

Although Ron Unz champions Ben Johnson as Shakespeare my own candidate
remains Francis Bacon. Regardless, a recently released 8,000 word essay
by Unz dropped this data:

One very surprising fact that I’d never previously known was
that all the published plays and other literary works had
sometimes been released anonymously, sometimes under the
name "Shake-Speare" including the dash often used for
pseudonyms in that era, or sometimes under the name
"Shakespeare." Meanwhile, the man from Stratford and his
entire family, including both parents and children, almost
always spelled their names "Shakspere."

<https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-who-wrote-shakespeares-plays/>

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Repost: footnote for Francis "Shakes" Bacon corrected.

Ted Nolan wrote:

Tony Nance wrote:

James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance-movements/

Interesting!

I've read the Russell and the Le Guin, and I've seen Red Dawn.

The first Russell I thought of was Wasp, though perhaps that doesn't >>count?[1]

I thought of that one, but decided it doesn't. The guy isn't
a resistent member of the polity, he's a planted saboteur from the
other side.

And the first Heinlein I thought of was TMIAHM.

I believe there is a resistance subplot in _Red Planet_,
settlers vs The Corporation or something like that.

And just because I scrolled by one of the movies yesterday:
I think Harry Potter & Co organized a resistance, especially one
Umbridge took over.[2]

Yes, Harry organized "Dumbledore's Army" which was to some extent
a resistance group. And I wish we had gotten more, or anything,
on Neville & Ginny's resistance activities leading up to "The
Battle Of Hogwarts" rather than endless camping scenes while
our main trio did very little useful.

Hmm. John Christopher "The Tripods" as long as we're mentioned
juvies, and of course "The Hunger Games". Actually probably
pretty much any juvie dystopia is going to have a resistance
I guess.

It seems probable given the juvie tendency to rebel.

Off the top of my head, both the Heinlein and the Russell occurred to
me, as well as:

ALONGSIDE NIGHT by Schulman (literally underground)
ATLAS SHRUGGED by Rand (plutocratic inverted underground)
CRYPTONOMICON by Stephenson (data underground)
DUNE, THE EYES OF HEISENBERG, and HELLSTROM'S HIVE by Herbert (the
latter literally underground)
FAHRENHEIT 451 by Bradbury
LANAGUE FEDERATION series by Wilson
LOGAN'S RUN by Nolan
NEW ATLANTIS by Francis "Shakes" Bacon [1] (a scientistic underground)
PERRY RHODAN (sundry settings sometimes literally underground)
THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH by Dick
TRANSISTION by Banks

Stories released in this century:

THE GOLDEN AGE series by Wright
THE HIDDEN TRUTH series by Schantz

At this point my mind mused upon making a shorter list of stories
/lacking/ an underground element.

Note.

[1]

<https://www.spreaker.com/episode/episode-10-all-the-evidence-you-need-to-know-that-bacon-was-shakespeare--56066545>

Although Ron Unz champions no one in particular as Shakespeare my own
candidate remains Francis Bacon - one of the earliest science fiction
authors known in history. Regardless, a recently released 8,000 word
essay by Unz dropped this data:

One very surprising fact that I’d never previously known was
that all the published plays and other literary works had
sometimes been released anonymously, sometimes under the
name "Shake-Speare" including the dash often used for
pseudonyms in that era, or sometimes under the name
"Shakespeare." Meanwhile, the man from Stratford and his
entire family, including both parents and children, almost
always spelled their names "Shakspere."

<https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-who-wrote-shakespeares-plays/>

Conspiracy "cranks" who credit anyone but Shakspere from Stratford-upon-
Avon as author are in good company. Big shot Shakspere skeptics include:
Walt Whitman, Henry James, Mark Twain, John Galsworthy, Sigmund Freud,
Vladimir Nabokov, David McCullough, Orson Welles, Sir John Gielgud,
Michael York, Kenneth Branagh, Derek Jacobi, Charlie Chaplin, John Paul Stevens, Sandra Day O’Connor, and Antonin Scalia.
Either Shakspere skepticism's getting to be a cottage industry or
it's been one forever. Dennis McCarthy says Ben Johnson knew who wrote Shakespeare's plays: Thomas North.

<https://dennismccarthy.substack.com/p/ben-jonson-knew-who-wrote-shakespeares>

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 12:20:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

On 3/24/2025 11:10 AM, James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance-movements/

None of the books but I have seen the infamous first "Red Dawn" movie
several times. Wolverines !

Was that the one where "Wolverines" was the high school mascot?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/19/2025 8:45 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 12:20:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

On 3/24/2025 11:10 AM, James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance-movements/

None of the books but I have seen the infamous first "Red Dawn" movie
several times. Wolverines !

Was that the one where "Wolverines" was the high school mascot?

Yes.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/03/25 05:10, James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance-movements/

The Unbroken.

I didn't get very far with this, about 40%, because there was nothing
original and the prose was mediocre. It was good, but I read better on
all of the scenes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 19 Apr 2025 08:45:08 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 12:20:40 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

On 3/24/2025 11:10 AM, James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance-movements/

None of the books but I have seen the infamous first "Red Dawn" movie >>several times. Wolverines !

Was that the one where "Wolverines" was the high school mascot?

Yup. I actually saw that one in the theater.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 2 Apr 2025 13:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

Off the top of my head, both the Heinlein and the Russell occurred to
me, as well as:

ALONGSIDE NIGHT by Schulman (literally underground)
ATLAS SHRUGGED by Rand (plutocratic inverted underground)
CRYPTONOMICON by Stephenson (data underground)
DUNE, THE EYES OF HEISENBERG, and HELLSTROM'S HIVE by Herbert (the
latter literally underground)
FAHRENHEIT 451 by Bradbury
LANAGUE FEDERATION series by Wilson
LOGAN'S RUN by Nolan
NEW ATLANTIS by Francis "Shakes" Bacon [1] (a scientistic underground)
PERRY RHODAN (sundry settings sometimes literally underground)
THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH by Dick
TRANSISTION by Banks

If those are the criteria you are using then you should also include
William Gibson's Burning Chrome and Neuromancer.

And much as I like Philip Dick, I'm not at all sure The Man in the
High Castle belongs in this sub-genre since unlike the others which
are mostly about the overthrow of a totalitarian regime, TMitHC is
primarily about overthrowing a foreign power that had conquered the
United States by a conventional invasion.

(And like many such stories the scenario that led to this whopping
good story is complete handwavium to get to where the author wants to
be. For what it's worth I feel the same about Marching Through Georgia
and the rest of the Domination of the Draka series. And given my 25+
year participation in soc.history.what-if and alt.history.what-if you
can safely assume I know my way around counter-factuals)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <20250401c@crcomp.net>, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

Ted Nolan wrote:

Tony Nance wrote:

James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

Off the top of my head, both the Heinlein and the Russell occurred to
me, as well as:

I ignored this when James first posted it, but since it's been
revived, I thought of a few:

- the "Lowlifes" in Julian May's THE MANY-COLORED LAND and THE GOLDEN
TORC
- the viewpoint characters in the second of Mercedes Lackey's four-book crypto-Egypt fantasy series, ALTA
- also from Lackey and much more recent, BEYOND

I had a couple more in mind but I think they're more on the side of a
revolt, at least as far as the plot goes, rather than a resistance
movement. BEYOND is maybe borderline, as the "resistance movement" is
mostly background and not exactly proletarian either.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The Horny Goat wrote:

Don wrote:

Off the top of my head, both the Heinlein and the Russell occurred to
me, as well as:

ALONGSIDE NIGHT by Schulman (literally underground)
ATLAS SHRUGGED by Rand (plutocratic inverted underground)
CRYPTONOMICON by Stephenson (data underground)
DUNE, THE EYES OF HEISENBERG, and HELLSTROM'S HIVE by Herbert (the
latter literally underground)
FAHRENHEIT 451 by Bradbury
LANAGUE FEDERATION series by Wilson
LOGAN'S RUN by Nolan
NEW ATLANTIS by Francis "Shakes" Bacon [1] (a scientistic underground) >>PERRY RHODAN (sundry settings sometimes literally underground)
THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH by Dick
TRANSISTION by Banks

If those are the criteria you are using then you should also include
William Gibson's Burning Chrome and Neuromancer.

And much as I like Philip Dick, I'm not at all sure The Man in the
High Castle belongs in this sub-genre since unlike the others which
are mostly about the overthrow of a totalitarian regime, TMitHC is
primarily about overthrowing a foreign power that had conquered the
United States by a conventional invasion.

(And like many such stories the scenario that led to this whopping
good story is complete handwavium to get to where the author wants to
be. For what it's worth I feel the same about Marching Through Georgia
and the rest of the Domination of the Draka series. And given my 25+
year participation in soc.history.what-if and alt.history.what-if you
can safely assume I know my way around counter-factuals)

Most of the resistance in HIGH CASTLE is covert, categorically
idiosyncratic rather than organized. Instead of Prof goading Loonies
into open rebellion, HIGH CASTLE's quietly rebellious.
Frank Frink foxily fabricates Americana to showoff superior
indigenous craftsmanship. Abendsen's banned meta-novel, THE GRASSHOPPER
LIES HEAVY, subverts fascist narratives. It inculcates taboo thoughts
that contradict official history.
The story's Operation Dandelion internecine intrigue is different.
It contains classical cells organized into an underground, or at least
occult, movement.

Regardless, in the end, you are correct. Although HIGH CASTLE hints at underground elements around its edges, it's primarily explores the
nature of reality. It seeks truth from a cornucopia of fake.
A counterintuitive take on Tagomi theorizes he transits to reality
while meditating on the park bench. While the world where the USA lost
is shared delusion...

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. veritas liberabit vos
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 29 Mar 2025 02:29:20 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote in <m4p480F1nc0U2@mid.individual.net>:

In article <vs7cq3$3qcn7$3@dont-email.me>,
Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:

On 3/24/25 12:10 PM, James Nicoll wrote:

Five SFF Stories About Underground Resistance Movements

Taking a stand, while facing overwhelming odds.

https://reactormag.com/five-sff-stories-about-underground-resistance- movements/

Interesting!

I've read the Russell and the Le Guin, and I've seen Red Dawn.

The first Russell I thought of was Wasp, though perhaps that doesn't >>count?[1]

I thought of that one, but decided it doesn't. The guy isn't a
resistent member of the polity, he's a planted saboteur from the other
side.

And the first Heinlein I thought of was TMIAHM.

I believe there is a resistance subplot in _Red Planet_,
settlers vs The Corporation or something like that.

Also Heinlein's _Revolt in 2100_, one of my favs.

I remember references to "Hawaii Free State" (?) in the narrative,
I guess they were spared becoming part of Nehemiah Scudder's theocracy.

--
-v

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <vvsnju$11i8g$2@dont-email.me>, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:

Also Heinlein's _Revolt in 2100_, one of my favs.

I remember references to "Hawaii Free State" (?) in the narrative,
I guess they were spared becoming part of Nehemiah Scudder's theocracy.

I always found that interesting, since Hawaii was a theocracy of sorts for
a while in the 19th century. There is certainly some reaction to that today
in both directions.... would be interesting to hear how Heinlein would
have thought it would come out in the 22nd century but he neevr elaborated. --scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 12 May 2025 11:55:43 -0000 (UTC), vallor <vallor@cultnix.org>
wrote:

Also Heinlein's _Revolt in 2100_, one of my favs.

I remember references to "Hawaii Free State" (?) in the narrative,
I guess they were spared becoming part of Nehemiah Scudder's theocracy.

Wonder if somebody will ever write 'The Sound of Their Wings" (I think
that was Heinlein's title) and if so how close it will come to
Heinlein's idea.

Similarly, I've heard some people say the villain in Bradbury's "A
Sound of Thunder" (that's the story that created the term "butterfly
effect") was a reference to Trump which is ludicrous since Trump was
six years old when Bradbury wrote it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 12 May 2025 08:40:01 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

In article <vvsnju$11i8g$2@dont-email.me>, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote: >>

Also Heinlein's _Revolt in 2100_, one of my favs.

I remember references to "Hawaii Free State" (?) in the narrative,
I guess they were spared becoming part of Nehemiah Scudder's theocracy.

I always found that interesting, since Hawaii was a theocracy of sorts for
a while in the 19th century. There is certainly some reaction to that today >in both directions.... would be interesting to hear how Heinlein would
have thought it would come out in the 22nd century but he neevr elaborated. >--scott

The only elaboration Heinlein made was to say he would never write
that story since he hated Scudder too much. That was long before Trump
of course even in his collusion with Vince McMahon.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 18 May 2025 20:58:02 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

On Mon, 12 May 2025 11:55:43 -0000 (UTC), vallor <vallor@cultnix.org>
wrote:

Also Heinlein's _Revolt in 2100_, one of my favs.

I remember references to "Hawaii Free State" (?) in the narrative,
I guess they were spared becoming part of Nehemiah Scudder's theocracy.

Wonder if somebody will ever write 'The Sound of Their Wings" (I think
that was Heinlein's title) and if so how close it will come to
Heinlein's idea.

Similarly, I've heard some people say the villain in Bradbury's "A
Sound of Thunder" (that's the story that created the term "butterfly
effect") was a reference to Trump which is ludicrous since Trump was
six years old when Bradbury wrote it.

Greg Stillson in "The Dead Zone" would be a candidate if only Stephen
King had written it 35 years later.

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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