A very long while ago, I read Frank Herberts "Hellstroms Hive"[1]
translated to German. Probably from when my way from the bus stop
to the school passed through a park with a bench where somebody
regularly read SF paperbacks then dropped them in the neighbouring
wastebasket.

Some 10 or 20 years ago I asked about contents snippets here, and
was pointed to it, and bought and re-read it in the original.
Well, the book as published by Tor, not the magazine series.

A few weeks ago, I brought some paperbacks to the book swap booth
3 minutes[2] away, browsed what was there, and brought home "Dune"[3].

I must confess that I never read Dune before. Nearest I came to
reading was when I asked a fellow student from my dormitory whether
I could borrow his copy, but he told me I wouldn't like it.
(I wonder why. Maybe because the purely aristocratic organization
of life depicted in it is quite the opposite of what my political
activities from back then tried to accomplish...)

Anyway, while I stumbled upon two different movies made of part
of the books on TV (in the time when TV was something with a fixed
program and you switched from channel to channel to find something
you liked to watch), I never read the novel (or the followup
novels).

I read Dune now, at least the main story contained in three Books
(Dune, Muad'dib, The Prohet). I didn't finish the volume yet, I
arrived somewhere in the appendices.

But I'd like to share some observations, assuming you know both
books, or at least Dune.

First, both the books themes as well as the style has some
similarities.

Both books describe a world with a hidden society that's differently
organized than the main society on the planet.

(Dune: the Fremen living in what the main occupants of the planet
think is a desert; Hellstroms Hive: the hive of the people living
organized like ants).

While in Dune this is out of necessity, in HH this seems to have
resulted from the ecological predictions of the founders who believed
there's no other way to preserve humankind in the long term.

In both books genetic engineering of a (branch of) humankind happens;
while in Dune, it's by the religious order of the Bene Gesserit -
part of the power tetragon of official society, in HH this has
moved to the hidden society.

In Dune, at least the Atreides nobility and their officers use a
hidden to others sign language in tactical situations. In HH, this
the main language of the Hive, to the extent that a big part of
the younger Hive population doesn't speak English (or any other
"Wild Human" language) at all. Only those who do work in contact
with the "Wild Humans" are educated in their ways and language.

The Fremen in Dune, living on a very dry planet, have developed
extreme ways to recover water from their own sweat and waste, and
to harvest what little amount they still need trapping nightly
air moisture.

They have a saying: the body belongs to the dead person, but
the water belongs to the tribe (when somebody dies, specialized
watermakers extract the body's water for reuse, leaving ot dry
for burial).

In HH, in addition to the underground agriculture, the hidden people
do nightly hunting trips in the woods surrounding their camouflage
farm building to gather birds and small mammals. Their deads are
entered into the food processing chain as a supplement, and sometimes
those who feel too old to be useful and want to die - enter
voluntarily.

So, in a couple of details, Hellstroms Hive seems to me to be a
more extreme variation of the themes from Dune. I'd like to compare
to other works by Frank Herbert not related to the Dune and the
followup novels to see where that development originated of where
it went to.

Btw, both books end by the hidden society successfully blackmailing
the official societies' rulers.

[1] Frank Herbert, Hellstrom's Hive
Tor © 1972,1973 by Herbert Properties LLC
This work was riginally published under the title "Project 40" in
/Galaxy Magazine/.
ISBN-13: 978-0-765-31772-8
ISBN-10: 0-765-31772-9

[2] by foot, not by car.

[3] Frank Herbert, Dune
ACE, New York, © 1965 by Herbert Properties LLC
ISBN 978-0-441-17271-9

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On 3/05/25 07:26, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote:

But I'd like to share some observations, assuming you know both
books, or at least Dune.

First, both the books themes as well as the style has some
similarities.

Thank you for your interesting post.
Both books were 5 star reads for me but so long ago that the detail of
Hive is forgotten but my recollection is that the politics, commerce and intrigues in Dune were far more complicated than those in Hive
undermining the importance of similarities in minor aspects of their themes.

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On 2 May 2025 19:26:13 GMT, Ignatios Souvatzis <u502sou@bnhb484.de>
wrote:

<snippo mucho>

A few weeks ago, I brought some paperbacks to the book swap booth
3 minutes[2] away, browsed what was there, and brought home "Dune"[3].

I must confess that I never read Dune before. Nearest I came to
reading was when I asked a fellow student from my dormitory whether
I could borrow his copy, but he told me I wouldn't like it.
(I wonder why. Maybe because the purely aristocratic organization
of life depicted in it is quite the opposite of what my political
activities from back then tried to accomplish...)

Anyway, while I stumbled upon two different movies made of part
of the books on TV (in the time when TV was something with a fixed
program and you switched from channel to channel to find something
you liked to watch), I never read the novel (or the followup
novels).

I read Dune now, at least the main story contained in three Books
(Dune, Muad'dib, The Prohet). I didn't finish the volume yet, I
arrived somewhere in the appendices.

I believe these to be correct statements:

When I first read /Dune/, I read it in /Analog/ as two different
serials titled "Dune" and "Prophet of Dune".

These were combined (I have been told that this restored the original
planned novel, the division into two be something Campbell did) into
the book /Dune/.

The split is where Paul and Jessica, fleeing the disaster, crash in
the Deep Desert. Paul has a vision of his future, and he doesn't like
it, because it is the vision of the Jihad. This was the climax of the
first serialization. The second half is the story up to the defeat of
the Emperor. Spice, after all, is the true ruler, and Paul controls
the Spice.

/Dune Messiah/ was the next book. It takes place after the Jihad,
which was never described except in Paul's visions.

Note: In addition to the Bene Gesserit, the Spacing Guild also engaged
in genetic manipulation, allowing "travel without moving". The
Sardaukar have been adapted to the air of Salusa Secundus. This is why
they fight, on planets where oxygen-breathers dwell, in hazmat suits
with tanks of their own air attached.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

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