On 20/06/25 09:27, William Hyde wrote:snip
Titus G wrote:
Vengeance was the fifth of his Quirke series. Copyright 2012. As well as >>> constant cigarette references, specific English brand names were used.
Just in case I did not previously recommend Banville's "Snow", let me do
so now. It is a mystery, but not involving Quirke.
On 24/06/2025 07:16, Titus G wrote:
On 20/06/25 14:38, Titus G wrote:
On 20/06/25 09:27, William Hyde wrote:snip
Titus G wrote:
Vengeance was the fifth of his Quirke series. Copyright 2012. As well as >>>>> constant cigarette references, specific English brand names were used.
Just in case I did not previously recommend Banville's "Snow", let me do >>>> so now. It is a mystery, but not involving Quirke.
In Chapter 1, Senior Service cigarettes are smoked and later on the
Priest smoked Churchmans cigarettes which will be English or Irish
brands. In Chapter 3, the body is sent to pathologist Quirke, an in joke
as there is no further reference.
I really enjoy his prose. Thank you for the recommendation.
By the way, Churchman was a real cigarette
brand which doesn't appear to have religious
meaning, Wikipedia says that William Churchman's
pipe tobacco shop was opened in 1790.
Also from Wikipedia, Senior Service was
an expensive filterless cigarette brand
launched in 1925. "Senior Service" also
is a colloquial name of the British Navy.
I'm assuming that this name is older than
the cigarettes.
Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 09:16:17 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 24/06/2025 07:16, Titus G wrote:
On 20/06/25 14:38, Titus G wrote:
On 20/06/25 09:27, William Hyde wrote:snip
Titus G wrote:
Vengeance was the fifth of his Quirke series. Copyright 2012. As >>>>>>> well as
constant cigarette references, specific English brand names were >>>>>>> used.
Just in case I did not previously recommend Banville's "Snow", let >>>>>> me do
so now. It is a mystery, but not involving Quirke.
In Chapter 1, Senior Service cigarettes are smoked and later on the
Priest smoked Churchmans cigarettes which will be English or Irish
brands. In Chapter 3, the body is sent to pathologist Quirke, an in
joke
as there is no further reference.
I really enjoy his prose. Thank you for the recommendation.
By the way, Churchman was a real cigarette
brand which doesn't appear to have religious
meaning, Wikipedia says that William Churchman's
pipe tobacco shop was opened in 1790.
Are you sure his name did not come from an ancestor being ... a Church
man? Just like "Smith" or "Miller" (among others).
Usually the name came from people who worked for the church but were not ordained, sextons, vergers, and so on. At the time the name arose
clerics were Catholic, and thus did not acknowledge their children.
Also from Wikipedia, Senior Service was
an expensive filterless cigarette brand
launched in 1925. "Senior Service" also
is a colloquial name of the British Navy.
I'm assuming that this name is older than
the cigarettes.
Very likely. Cigs for tars, how nice.
The ads were more about officer-class types, officer class being in
those early days always upper class as well.
William Hyde
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 17:42:34 -0700, Bobbie Sellers ><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 6/26/25 12:32, William Hyde wrote:
Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo -- reference is to "Senior Service" as the British Navy and a >cigarette brand>
Very likely. Cigs for tars, how nice.
Tars for tars.
The ads were more about officer-class types, officer class being in
those early days always upper class as well.
Well of course they were upper class in most nations as why would >>entrust a peasant with an expensive ship and crew.
Education was not evenly distributed then or now.
Just a note: I rather think William Hyde's point is that they were for >/officers/, not tars (who were common seamen).
On 6/26/25 12:32, William Hyde wrote:
Paul S Person wrote:
Very likely. Cigs for tars, how nice.
Tars for tars.
The ads were more about officer-class types, officer class being in
those early days always upper class as well.
Well of course they were upper class in most nations as why would
entrust a peasant with an expensive ship and crew.
Education was not evenly distributed then or now.
Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Well of course they were upper class in most nations as why would
entrust a peasant with an expensive ship and crew.
It was not so much upper class as having aristocratic connections. You
could be wealthy and still have no chance without a recommendation from
an aristocratic sponsor, or you could be middle class and get in with
such a connection.
Middle class people with a slight whiff of a connection could become >midshipmen (much as C. S. Forster's Hornblower) but promotion beyond >Lieutenant required influence from above. Aristocratic connections gave >that influence, otherwise you had to rely on your superior officers, who >would be deluged with claims from various of their relatives for
promotion, which would often win out over promotion of a skilled
Lieutenant or Commander.
Nelson was the son of a vicar, and not a rich one. But his mother was a >relation of two aristocratic families and an uncle was already a
Captain. His uncle, the Captain, wasn't keen on the idea but in the end
he sponsored him ("Let Horatio enter the navy and perhaps a cannonball
will take off his head, thus providing for him.").
It is perhaps significant that among Nelson's closest friends were >Collingwood and Louis, both of whom also barely met the social >qualifications for officer. Though Louis was said to be a
great-grandson of Louis XIV, his father was a schoolmaster.
Newton, for example, despite being born rich, would not have been
accepted into the Navy as an officer unless a high ranking officer >recommended him. His ancestors were sheep farmers, none of them even
being on the tax rolls until about a century before his birth.
If you were very, very, lucky you could work your way into the officer
class from the lower decks. Generally you would have to do something >spectacularly brave where an officer could see it, as well as be highly >competent. I seem to recall reading that two of Nelsons 30+ captains at >Trafalgar had worked their way up, which was considered to be a high >proportion at the time.
By 1925 this system was long gone, but the culture remained.
It wasn't only England, though. Napoleon's family had to dig through >ancient records in Italy to prove noble ancestry before he could be
accepted for officer training in the French Army.
Education was not evenly distributed then or now.
In those days aristocrats could get university degrees merely by showing
up No exams for them! Why, they might finish worse than a commoner!
In article <g4ft5kpndi9rrk05jpppfamss0ret3cbeu@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 17:42:34 -0700, Bobbie Sellers >><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 6/26/25 12:32, William Hyde wrote:
Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo -- reference is to "Senior Service" as the British Navy and a >>cigarette brand>
Very likely. Cigs for tars, how nice.
Tars for tars.
The ads were more about officer-class types, officer class being in
those early days always upper class as well.
Well of course they were upper class in most nations as why would >>>entrust a peasant with an expensive ship and crew.
Education was not evenly distributed then or now.
Just a note: I rather think William Hyde's point is that they were for >>/officers/, not tars (who were common seamen).
Don't call them common, a British Tar is a soaring soul!
After WW2, this pretty much died (royal sons [and maybe daughters now]
may still spend some time in a military service, but that is generally >temporary). Militaries became both professionalized and very technical
-- just having a title and and income and a winning smile/pleasant >personality was no longer enough. Actual knowledge of how to use the
various types of units (often determined by their equipment) became >necessary.
Education was not evenly distributed then or now.
In those days aristocrats could get university degrees merely by showing= >>up No exams for them! Why, they might finish worse than a commoner!
Paul S Person wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2025 17:09:42 -0400, William Hyde
[...]
It wasn't only England, though. Napoleon's family had to dig through
ancient records in Italy to prove noble ancestry before he could be
accepted for officer training in the French Army.
Nor was it restricted to the Navy.
Another consideration is that the pay was (in the higher ranks)
insufficient to meet the social obligations. A private income was
necessary.
It's a point often made by C. S. Forester that Hornblower didn't have
the money needed to support his position socially, until he got some
decent prize money.
Nelson, on half pay between the US revolution and the French, was also
short of money, living cheaply in the countryside on a Captain's half
pay. Prize money began to come his way when he was appointed to a ship
of the line in the Med, but IIRC money problems continued.
When there was some talk of his being made a baronet after Cape St
Vincent he demurred, saying that he didn't have sufficient money to
support hereditary honours. After the Nile, things were different and
he accepted a barony.
In William's "The Praxis", a non-noble warrant officer is promoted to commissioned status and has the same problems.
Nor was it restricted to England. Germany drew its officers mostly
from the aristocracy through WW2. The Waffen-SS, OTOH, did not.
After WW2, this pretty much died (royal sons [and maybe daughters now]
may still spend some time in a military service, but that is generally
temporary). Militaries became both professionalized and very technical
-- just having a title and and income and a winning smile/pleasant
personality was no longer enough. Actual knowledge of how to use the
various types of units (often determined by their equipment) became
necessary.
Most of the aristocratic types in Nelson's navy were actually quite
competent technically and usually inured to battle. Those who were not
were weeded out in the early years of war - admittedly at some cost.
A century earlier, at the start of a new war, for example, a couple of admiral Benbow's officers declined to fight -Â as the song says:
"Brave Benbow he set sail, for to fight
For to fight
Brave Benbow he set sail, for to fight.
Brave Benbow he set sail,
With a fine and pleasant gale
But his captains they turn'd tail
In a fright, in a fright.
Says Kirby unto Wade, "We will run,
We will run."
Says Kirby unto Wade, "We will run.
For I value no disgrace
Or the losing of my place
But the enemy I won't face
Nor his guns, nor his guns.""
It is perhaps no coincidence that Benbow was not particularly
aristocratic in ancestry, that he served for some time in the merchant
navy, and that he attained Lieutenant's rank rather late, having served
as Master, a rank which was something of a dead end as far as naval
commands went. Kirby and Wade may not have thought him to be a real Admiral. Not one of their crowd.
Not to mention that the shear size of the militaries (as a proportion
of population) pretty much forced some relaxation of the normal rules.
A good point.
Especially when, in WWI, many upper class British men declined to serve
as officers, preferring the ranks. To be fair, they probably didn't
know early in the war how much safer that was.
     Education was not evenly distributed then or now.
In those days aristocrats could get university degrees merely by showing >>> up No exams for them! Why, they might finish worse than a commoner!
Besides, it's not as if they would ever have to work for a living.
I still remember the Monty Python "Upper Class Twit of the Year"
episode I'm sure each of the contestants had a univeristy degree.
I think Bertie Wooster managed to avoid a degree.
William Hyde
any of that but was originally spelled differently
anyway. Such as, arbitrarily, someone who sells
oranges. I don't know how you'd get "Churchman"
from that, but I'm confident that it's feasible.
In fact let me try: oranges are Spanish, therefore
Roman Catholic, so let's suppose that they were
called, hmm, church-apples in England - that'll do.
Even though I just made it up.
On 26/06/2025 20:32, William Hyde wrote:<snippo mucho>
Paul S Person wrote:
Are you sure his name did not come from an ancestor being ... a Church
man? Just like "Smith" or "Miller" (among others).
Usually the name came from people who worked for the church but were not
ordained, sextons, vergers, and so on. At the time the name arose
clerics were Catholic, and thus did not acknowledge their children.
Without direct knowledge, I was about to suggest
that it has a meaning that is nothing to do with
any of that but was originally spelled differently
anyway. Such as, arbitrarily, someone who sells
oranges. I don't know how you'd get "Churchman"
from that, but I'm confident that it's feasible.
In fact let me try: oranges are Spanish, therefore
Roman Catholic, so let's suppose that they were
called, hmm, church-apples in England - that'll do.
Even though I just made it up.
Also from Wikipedia, Senior Service was
an expensive filterless cigarette brand
launched in 1925. "Senior Service" also
is a colloquial name of the British Navy.
I'm assuming that this name is older than
the cigarettes.
Just a note: I rather think William Hyde's point is that they were for >/officers/, not tars (who were common seamen).
Coincidences do happen. Some names have no connection with their
apparent meaning. A name that circa 1200 sounded like "churchman",
might have come to be pronounced that way in time. Dorothy or Erilar
could perhaps have given us a name for this process.
After WW2, this pretty much died (royal sons [and maybe daughters now]
may still spend some time in a military service, but that is generally >temporary). Militaries became both professionalized and very technical
-- just having a title and and income and a winning smile/pleasant >personality was no longer enough. Actual knowledge of how to use the
various types of units (often determined by their equipment) became >necessary.=20
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