1. Forum
  2. Usenet
  3. REC.ARTS.BOOKS.TOLKIEN

  • Am I missing something here

    From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 6 05:32:53 2022
    "The Council of Elrond" is one of my favorite chapters of LotR,
    because of the "lore". In that chapter, you may remember, Legolas
    reveals that Gollum escaped from his imprisonment by the Elves.

    Near the beginning of the next chapter, Bilbo says that everyone at
    the Council had an eye-opener, "Even old Gandalf. I think Legolas?s
    bit of news about Gollum caught even him on the hop, though he passed
    it off." Gandalf retorts, "You were wrong. You were inattentive. I
    had already heard of it from Gwaihir."

    Only ... this time I went back to the Council chapter and re-read
    Gandalf's account of his conversation with Gwaihir at Orthanc, and I
    sure didn't see anything in it about Gollum. Am I missing something,
    or was Gwaihir's report to Gandalf in an earlier version, and when
    Tolkien took it out he missed this back reference in the next
    chapter?

    (Hammond and Scull don't have anything to say about it in /LotR: A
    Reader's Companion/, and I don't have volume VI of HoME to look up
    drafts of the Council chapter.)

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Ikeda@21:1/5 to Stan Brown on Sun Nov 6 16:24:17 2022
    Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in news:MPG.3dd157607feb444498ffee@news.individual.net:

    "The Council of Elrond" is one of my favorite chapters of LotR,
    because of the "lore". In that chapter, you may remember,
    Legolas reveals that Gollum escaped from his imprisonment by the
    Elves.

    Near the beginning of the next chapter, Bilbo says that everyone
    at the Council had an eye-opener, "Even old Gandalf. I think
    Legolas?s bit of news about Gollum caught even him on the hop,
    though he passed it off." Gandalf retorts, "You were wrong. You
    were inattentive. I had already heard of it from Gwaihir."

    Only ... this time I went back to the Council chapter and
    re-read Gandalf's account of his conversation with Gwaihir at
    Orthanc, and I sure didn't see anything in it about Gollum. Am I
    missing something, or was Gwaihir's report to Gandalf in an
    earlier version, and when Tolkien took it out he missed this
    back reference in the next chapter?

    (Hammond and Scull don't have anything to say about it in /LotR:
    A Reader's Companion/, and I don't have volume VI of HoME to
    look up drafts of the Council chapter.)


    It's actually mentioned a couple of paragraphs before Gandalf's
    account of his conversation with Gwaihur. Gandalf says that "the
    Eagles of the Mountains went far and wide, and they saw many
    things: the gathering of wolves and the mustering of orcs; and the
    Nine Riders going hither and thither in the lands; and they heard
    news of the escape of Gollum. And they sent a messenger to bring
    these tidings to me."

    (With the implication that Gwaihur, being that messenger, would
    have told all of this to Gandalf.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Michael Ikeda on Sun Nov 6 20:21:55 2022
    On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:24:17 GMT, Michael Ikeda wrote:

    Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in news:MPG.3dd157607feb444498ffee@news.individual.net:

    "The Council of Elrond" is one of my favorite chapters of LotR,
    because of the "lore". In that chapter, you may remember,
    Legolas reveals that Gollum escaped from his imprisonment by the
    Elves.

    Near the beginning of the next chapter, Bilbo says that everyone
    at the Council had an eye-opener, "Even old Gandalf. I think
    Legolas?s bit of news about Gollum caught even him on the hop,
    though he passed it off." Gandalf retorts, "You were wrong. You
    were inattentive. I had already heard of it from Gwaihir."

    Only ... this time I went back to the Council chapter and
    re-read Gandalf's account of his conversation with Gwaihir at
    Orthanc, and I sure didn't see anything in it about Gollum. Am I
    missing something, or was Gwaihir's report to Gandalf in an
    earlier version, and when Tolkien took it out he missed this
    back reference in the next chapter?

    (Hammond and Scull don't have anything to say about it in /LotR:
    A Reader's Companion/, and I don't have volume VI of HoME to
    look up drafts of the Council chapter.)


    It's actually mentioned a couple of paragraphs before Gandalf's
    account of his conversation with Gwaihur. Gandalf says that "the
    Eagles of the Mountains went far and wide, and they saw many
    things: the gathering of wolves and the mustering of orcs; and the
    Nine Riders going hither and thither in the lands; and they heard
    news of the escape of Gollum. And they sent a messenger to bring
    these tidings to me."

    (With the implication that Gwaihur, being that messenger, would
    have told all of this to Gandalf.)

    Thanks -- that has bothered me every time I reread LotR -- I turn
    back and find Gwaihir's speech to Gandalf, and scratch my head. Now I
    know that it's implied rather than stated directly, but once it's
    pointed out it seems pretty clear. Thank you!

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)