xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
  https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
On 6/7/2025 5:46 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat PumpPer the "title" text (which I don't can't seem to get to display on a computer, just on a mobile device),
   https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-
Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
On 08/06/2025 00:51, Ted Goldblatt wrote:
On 6/7/2025 5:46 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat PumpPer the "title" text (which I don't can't seem to get to display on a
https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-
Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
computer, just on a mobile device), the pipes are installed inside of
the insulation (which it says can be challenging since the neighbor
could come home at any time).
I use the third-party "Explain xkcd" site, ><https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>
A day after the expected publication dates -
this time, I'd forgotten.
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 14:25:47 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/06/2025 00:51, Ted Goldblatt wrote:
On 6/7/2025 5:46 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat PumpPer the "title" text (which I don't can't seem to get to display on a=20 >>> computer, just on a mobile device), the pipes are installed inside of=20 >>> the insulation (which it says can be challenging since the neighbor=20
=A0=A0=A0 https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it !=A0 However, if their=20
insulation is real good then it won=92t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-=20
Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
could come home at any time).
I use the third-party "Explain xkcd" site, >><https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>
A day after the expected publication dates -
this time, I'd forgotten.
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they
claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:--
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they
claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor. That's the 'free' part.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Yes, we have #2 Fuel Oil, which is like a poor quality diesel. It's not >filtered very well and it has a lot more varnish-making stuff in it. But >overall composition is similar but it's not as well-refined.
It burns way cleaner than maritime HFO, but it's still very dirty compared >with burning natural gas or propane.
Some people will use #1 Fuel Oil which is thicker and burns less cleanly, >especially in rural areas. It has more sulfur in it than diesel or #2.
Occasionally you will see apartment buildings and other places with big >boilers that burn #6 fuel oil which is the cheapest and stinkiest alternative. >It's thick enough that they don't use it in really cold climates though.
And it's still less nasty than HFO.
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Yes, we have #2 Fuel Oil, which is like a poor quality diesel. It's not filtered very well and it has a lot more varnish-making stuff in it. But overall composition is similar but it's not as well-refined.
It burns way cleaner than maritime HFO, but it's still very dirty compared with burning natural gas or propane.
Some people will use #1 Fuel Oil which is thicker and burns less cleanly, especially in rural areas. It has more sulfur in it than diesel or #2.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 14:25:47 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they >>claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor. That's the 'free' part.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
Lynn McGuire wrote:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I
presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with
the change.
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
https://store.astm.org/d0396-21.html
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:56:23 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
<snippo>
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.=A0 Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I=20 >>presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with=20 >>the change.
My parents converted from coal to oil in the early 1950s. I can still >remember my Da digging the hole for the tank. With a shovel.
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
I refer you to this informative article:
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-poverty= >.html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with
natural gas.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:56:23 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
<snippo>
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.=A0 Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I=20
presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with=20 >>> the change.
My parents converted from coal to oil in the early 1950s. I can still
remember my Da digging the hole for the tank. With a shovel.
My Uncle (central Wis.) converted from wood to propane in the 70's.
One very large convection furnace (called an octopus) in the basement replaced with a simple propane furnace with integrated air handler.
No need to stockpile (fell, buck, cut and split) 10 cords of
oak firewood every year (plenty of trees on the farm). No need
move wood from the woodpile to the basement every couple of
days. No need to go down the rickety narrow steep stairs to feed
the fire a few times a day.
No more frigid winter nights hoping the warm air would reach
the second floor.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
I refer you to this informative article:
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-poverty= >>.html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with >>natural gas.
I think a study of a handful of 60-year-old homes in one corner of
a northern state is not particularly indicative of a general trend.
The actual study (although it is really a partially a meta-analysis
of other papers) is here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344924002933?via%3Dihub
The find the median payback is 24 years, including weatherization of the 60 >year-old homes. Unattractive to low-income homeowners, thus they
recommend government incentives to aid such homeowners.
However, the vast majority of homes, even in Michigan, likely
are either much newer (built after 1975) with better weatherization
or have been weatherized already and would likely benefit from
a heat pump system.
In your particular case, the price of heating oil can be rather
volatile, peaking at $4.26 in 2022 (currently less than $2.00);
as a fundamentally limited resource, it won't remain that cheap
forever.
https://www.macrotrends.net/2479/heating-oil-prices-historical-chart-data
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:56:23 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> >>wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
<snippo>
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.=A0 Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I=20 >>>presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with=20 >>>the change.
My parents converted from coal to oil in the early 1950s. I can still >>remember my Da digging the hole for the tank. With a shovel.
My Uncle (central Wis.) converted from wood to propane in the 70's.
One very large convection furnace (called an octopus) in the basement >replaced with a simple propane furnace with integrated air handler.
No need to stockpile (fell, buck, cut and split) 10 cords of
oak firewood every year (plenty of trees on the farm). No need
move wood from the woodpile to the basement every couple of
days. No need to go down the rickety narrow steep stairs to feed
the fire a few times a day.
No more frigid winter nights hoping the warm air would reach
the second floor.
Over the years, some owners/renters have had cords of wood delivered.
Most used an axe, but one used a chainsaw.
It was after that started that strange bumps began appearing in our
back yard and then moved to our front yard ... although, like the fall >mushrooms, I don't seem to have seen them in recent years.
On 6/11/2025 11:13 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 21:29:08 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
I refer you to this informative article:
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-poverty= >>>> .html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with
natural gas.
I think a study of a handful of 60-year-old homes in one corner of
a northern state is not particularly indicative of a general trend.
Of course you don't. It opposes your preferred narrative.
The actual study (although it is really a partially a meta-analysis
of other papers) is here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344924002933?via%3Dihub
The find the median payback is 24 years, including weatherization of the 60 >>> year-old homes. Unattractive to low-income homeowners, thus they
recommend government incentives to aid such homeowners.
However, the vast majority of homes, even in Michigan, likely
are either much newer (built after 1975) with better weatherization
or have been weatherized already and would likely benefit from
a heat pump system.
Just keep denying the demonstrated reality.
Alternately, find a similar study of the vast majority of homes.
<snippo stuff>
In your particular case, the price of heating oil can be ratherI'm not sure what that is showing: is it just the price in New York
volatile, peaking at $4.26 in 2022 (currently less than $2.00);
as a fundamentally limited resource, it won't remain that cheap
forever.
https://www.macrotrends.net/2479/heating-oil-prices-historical-chart-data >>
Harbor? Is that supposed to control prices throughout the country?
Examining my records shows prices actually paid 2020-2025:
01/21/20 3.489
11/23/20 3.079
05/04/21 3.639
02/12/22 4.589
12/01/22 5.639
05/08/23 5.079
03/01/24 5.079
01/02/25 4.939
Keep in mind that the Pacific NW is a bit ... isolated ... oil-wise.
Basically, we have our own refineries and our costs (including
gasoline for cars) are always a bit higher than elsewhere. Still, the
peak in Dec 22 is consistent with the general trend your link shows.
A few years back, /all/ the refineries were planning to close (for
various reasons) at the same time. One of our Senators suggested they
rethink this, as it would boost gas prices and might be viewed as a
form of illegal collusion.
The irony here, of course, is that, to avoid being charged with
collusion, they had to collude to decide on a staggered schedule of
closures. Such is the gap between theory and reality.
In my lifetime, we have dropped from 250+ refineries in the USA in 1980
to the present 90. Of course, I am talking about real refineries with
30 to 100 unit operations, not the little tea kettles.
The production of crude oil in the USA is probably going to drop in 2026
due to reduced capital investment in oil wells (we are in a oil bust
again since 2009).
The USA natural gas production will meet of all the USA's needs easily
for the next 100 to 200 years as we are flaring about 1/3rd of our
natural gas right now due to lack of customers and/or storage. Most of
the 100% natural gas wells are closed in at this time.
My Uncle (central Wis.) converted from wood to propane in the 70's.
One very large convection furnace (called an octopus) in the basement >replaced with a simple propane furnace with integrated air handler.
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