• cone instead of parabolic sound collector?

    From Jake T@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 16 07:51:14 2021
    I recently discussed my coyote audio capture methods with a friend of
    mine, who is an electrical engineer. He suggested using a large cone to accomplish the same task citing that it was less bulky and cumbersome
    than the dish and might even perform better. I told him that I would be concerned with how it would affect the frequency response, but, on the
    other hand, so does the parabolic system I made. Just out of curiosity,
    any idea why cones are not used?

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  • From Don Pearce@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 16 12:58:02 2021
    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 07:51:14 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:

    I recently discussed my coyote audio capture methods with a friend of
    mine, who is an electrical engineer. He suggested using a large cone to >accomplish the same task citing that it was less bulky and cumbersome
    than the dish and might even perform better. I told him that I would be >concerned with how it would affect the frequency response, but, on the
    other hand, so does the parabolic system I made. Just out of curiosity,
    any idea why cones are not used?

    Cones have a different function that makes them more suited to
    speakers. The reflector makes a sound beam - which is what you want.
    The cone works as an impedance transformer matching the air to the mic diaphragm. So while it makes things louder, it does not do a great
    deal for directivity.
    You are trying to minimize pickup off axis, which is what the
    reflector does.

    d

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  • From Don Pearce@21:1/5 to Don Pearce on Thu Dec 16 12:59:47 2021
    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 12:58:02 GMT, spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:

    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 07:51:14 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:

    I recently discussed my coyote audio capture methods with a friend of
    mine, who is an electrical engineer. He suggested using a large cone to >>accomplish the same task citing that it was less bulky and cumbersome
    than the dish and might even perform better. I told him that I would be >>concerned with how it would affect the frequency response, but, on the >>other hand, so does the parabolic system I made. Just out of curiosity, >>any idea why cones are not used?

    Cones have a different function that makes them more suited to
    speakers. The reflector makes a sound beam - which is what you want.
    The cone works as an impedance transformer matching the air to the mic >diaphragm. So while it makes things louder, it does not do a great
    deal for directivity.
    You are trying to minimize pickup off axis, which is what the
    reflector does.

    d

    Should add - when you say cone, I presume you are talking about a horn
    - like on a loudhailer.

    d

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  • From Jake T@21:1/5 to Don Pearce on Thu Dec 16 08:33:18 2021
    On 12/16/21 7:59 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 12:58:02 GMT, spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:

    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 07:51:14 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:

    I recently discussed my coyote audio capture methods with a friend of
    mine, who is an electrical engineer. He suggested using a large cone to >>> accomplish the same task citing that it was less bulky and cumbersome
    than the dish and might even perform better. I told him that I would be >>> concerned with how it would affect the frequency response, but, on the
    other hand, so does the parabolic system I made. Just out of curiosity, >>> any idea why cones are not used?

    Cones have a different function that makes them more suited to
    speakers. The reflector makes a sound beam - which is what you want.
    The cone works as an impedance transformer matching the air to the mic
    diaphragm. So while it makes things louder, it does not do a great
    deal for directivity.
    You are trying to minimize pickup off axis, which is what the
    reflector does.

    Interesting. When he was talking about the cone, I was thinking about
    shotgun mics in my mind, but also realizing that they used cylinders and
    not cones. I figured there was a reason cones weren't used, so thanks
    for the info. He did send this:

    https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/aircraft-detection-radar-1917-1940/

    I can imagine being the soldier assigned to that task and would hope and
    pray that I sure didn't misinterpret the sound only to realize an attack
    a few minutes later when it was too late!



    d

    Should add - when you say cone, I presume you are talking about a horn
    - like on a loudhailer.

    d


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  • From Don Pearce@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 16 14:04:59 2021
    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 08:33:18 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:

    Interesting. When he was talking about the cone, I was thinking about >shotgun mics in my mind, but also realizing that they used cylinders and
    not cones. I figured there was a reason cones weren't used, so thanks
    for the info. He did send this:

    https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/aircraft-detection-radar-1917-1940/

    I can imagine being the soldier assigned to that task and would hope and
    pray that I sure didn't misinterpret the sound only to realize an attack
    a few minutes later when it was too late!


    In England during WWII one of our early warning systems before radar
    was your umbrella - implemented in concrete.

    https://theromneymarsh.net/soundmirrors

    d

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  • From Ty Ford@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 16 06:09:09 2021
    Maybe this will help.

    https://tyfordaudiovideo.blogspot.com/2018/07/klover-parabolic-collector-microphone.html

    Regards,

    Ty Ford

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  • From Don Pearce@21:1/5 to tyre3ef0rd@gmail.com on Thu Dec 16 14:22:33 2021
    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 06:09:09 -0800 (PST), Ty Ford
    <tyre3ef0rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    Maybe this will help.

    https://tyfordaudiovideo.blogspot.com/2018/07/klover-parabolic-collector-microphone.html

    Regards,

    Ty Ford

    Interesting video there. As you were standing quite close to the dish
    you should have pulled the mic away from the dish to focus on you (1/v
    + 1/u = 1/f). And you were hearing the brightening I talked about
    earlier which is due to the dish having a 6dB per octave rise due to
    beam narrowing with increasing frequency.

    d

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  • From Don Pearce@21:1/5 to Don Pearce on Thu Dec 16 14:29:26 2021
    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:22:33 GMT, spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:

    On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 06:09:09 -0800 (PST), Ty Ford
    <tyre3ef0rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    Maybe this will help.
    https://tyfordaudiovideo.blogspot.com/2018/07/klover-parabolic-collector-microphone.html

    Regards,

    Ty Ford

    Interesting video there. As you were standing quite close to the dish
    you should have pulled the mic away from the dish to focus on you (1/v
    + 1/u = 1/f). And you were hearing the brightening I talked about
    earlier which is due to the dish having a 6dB per octave rise due to
    beam narrowing with increasing frequency.

    d

    The gain from a dish properly illuminated by a microphone is
    20 * log( pi * d / L)

    d is the dish diameter and L is the wavelength. The 6dB per octave
    comes from that 20 log bit.

    d

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  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Jake T on Thu Dec 16 14:41:42 2021
    Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:

    I recently discussed my coyote audio capture methods with a friend of
    mine, who is an electrical engineer. He suggested using a large cone to accomplish the same task citing that it was less bulky and cumbersome
    than the dish and might even perform better. I told him that I would be concerned with how it would affect the frequency response, but, on the
    other hand, so does the parabolic system I made. Just out of curiosity,
    any idea why cones are not used?

    Assuming you mean something like a public address loudspeaker in
    reverse:

    The horn that would cover the frequency range you need would have a
    mouth as large as a parabolic dish covering the lowest frequency, so you
    would gain nothing in size. Conical horns have a very uneven frequency response which varies according to the angle of incidence and the
    acoustic impedance of whatever is on the 'sharp' end, so they sound
    nasty and are virtually impossible to equalise. Hyperbolic horns are
    much worse.

    Exponential horns are an interesting case: there is a mismatch between
    the large end and the surrounding air which reflects sound waves when
    they are used as a 'projector' of sound. This results in a significant
    hump in the frequency response around the bass cutoff frequency which
    makes the graphs of their performance look better but actually sounds
    worse. For gramophones, this hump corrects for the bass cut during
    recording (a sort of mechanical/acoustic RIAA playback equivalent) but
    when driven by a good loudspeaker they sounded 'honky'.

    The tractrix horn is the best-sounding, although its low frequency
    response doesn't look as good on paper as an exponential of similar
    size. The mouth flare is a good match to the surrounding air and, as
    long as you don't terminate the sharp end with anything stupid, it will
    give a good flat response to sounds arriving on-axis.

    Most of the research was done on horns used as projectors, not as
    listening devices, but the foregoing remarks apply to either. A lot of
    the mathematical approaches dating from the 1920s are highly suspect and
    were based on unproven assumptions about the wavefront progression
    (there were patents on exponential horns and academics may have had a
    vested interest in writing papers 'proving' that they were the perfect
    shape, which helped sales).

    If you really must use a horn, make it a tractrix; otherwise I suggest
    you stick to a parabolic reflector.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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