XPost: aalt.war.world-war-two, soc.history.war.misc

On 5/22/23 16:38, a425couple wrote:

Tom Williams
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Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat

Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense (in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another destructive war?
It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.

contra view

Ron S. Friedman
· Fri
Appeasing dictators who had already proven to be untrastworthy is not a
good strategy.

Yes, Chamberlain bought some time to allow Britain to increase its
defence budget.

But in that bought time, (October 1938– September 1939) Germany
increased its military capacity by a lot more, especially by taking all
the weapon factories in Czechoslovakia in tact. (In a 1938 war, those
factories would have likely been destroyed.)

Moreover, any opposition to Hitler in 1938 in Germany faded away.
Including the Army's planned a coup. (Oster conspiracy) Thanks to
Munich, no serious coup attempt was possible until 1944.

—-

At the end, appeasing Hitler had eliminated the chance of a successful
coup against Hitler in 1938. And resulted in much bigger war with tens
of million of death. Far more deveststing than a 1938 war could have
looked like.

Chamberlain deserve his bad reputation.

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Ivan Traminiev
· Sat
How easy ist is to speak with hindsight. At the end of WWII in order to
give Czechowlowakia more defensible borders it was given the Sudeten
reagion a geraln ragion peopled with geramns who had not been asked if
thsy wanted to become germans and had not been asked if they wanted to
become Czcoslowak…
(more)
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Rupert Baines
Good points and it read not just him who was wary of war
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Brett Flournoy
· Fri
yeah, what a putz. We have all met bullies on the schoolyard. Except
this moron maybe.

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Tom Williams
Yeah, but you don’t confront a huge bully upfront. You pretend to defer
to him, then, when he’s not looking, sneak up behind with a bat and
knock him out.
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Rupert Baines
· Fri
Chamberlain was indeed vilified at the time but the consensus of modern historians is here did ac good job: “hope for peace, prepare for war” He invested massively in building up the army and air force it is
legitimate to say he gambled that surrendering Sudevtland to give a
change due Poland, France a…
(more)
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John Weatherby
· Sat
It wasn’t just Chamberlin though. Italy and France were major players
here. There was a belief in the league of nations and diplomacy would
prevent wars. They had the wrong assumption that all evidence pointed
against that given in and helping to create ethno states would avoid
another war. A good b…
(more)
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Rupert Baines
That’s fair. thanks.
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Brett Flournoy
· Fri
oh yeah, right. Nice job Neville.

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XPost: soc.history.war.misc

"a425couple" wrote in message news:14TaM.3797867$GNG9.3076053@fx18.iad...

On 5/22/23 16:38, a425couple wrote:

Tom Williams
Follow
Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat

Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense (in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another destructive war?
It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.

----------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinkmanship

Both sides misjudged each other, Hitler would rather have had Britain as an ally fighting Marxist Communism, which Fascism had angrily split away from. Stalin also mistakenly believed he could successfully accommodate Hitler,
but ultimately Hitler's misjudgements were the worst.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_propaganda_and_the_United_Kingdom
"British rule in India was held up as a model for how the Germans would rule Eastern Europe."

I think the record for extreme risk taking among world leaders belongs to
Teddy Roosevelt, who personally killed wild cougars with a knife. https://www.boone-crockett.org/adventures-archives-theodore-roosevelts-worlds-record-cougar

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On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:51:15 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"a425couple" wrote in message news:14TaM.3797867$GNG9.3...@fx18.iad...
On 5/22/23 16:38, a425couple wrote:

Tom Williams
Follow
Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat

Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense (in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another destructive war?
It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.

----------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinkmanship

Both sides misjudged each other, Hitler would rather have had Britain as an ally fighting Marxist Communism, which Fascism had angrily split away from. Stalin also mistakenly believed he could successfully accommodate Hitler, but ultimately Hitler's misjudgements were the worst.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_propaganda_and_the_United_Kingdom "British rule in India was held up as a model for how the Germans would rule Eastern Europe."

I think the record for extreme risk taking among world leaders belongs to Teddy Roosevelt, who personally killed wild cougars with a knife. https://www.boone-crockett.org/adventures-archives-theodore-roosevelts-worlds-record-cougar

Chamberlain was wrong. It didn't matter that Britain might be unprepared for a land war. After all, France was right there too. And the Czechs would have fought if they knew the French and British were going to help. I even suspect Poland would have
helped. All Chamberlain did was betray the Czechs and give Germany time to build impressive forces. Appeasement never works.

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"Dean Markley" wrote in message news:09ebcf56-9c1d-4c10-a317-d7999f6f1236n@googlegroups.com...

Chamberlain was wrong. It didn't matter that Britain might be unprepared
for a land war. After all, France was right there too. And the Czechs
would have fought if they knew the French and British were going to help. I even suspect Poland would have helped. All Chamberlain did was betray the Czechs and give Germany time to build impressive forces. Appeasement never works.

---------------------

Most world leaders guessed wrong and blundered into the war. Hitler didn't intend to fight Britain or especially the USA, despite the aggressive Neutrality Patrols which he ignored. Mussolini invaded Greece and got his
butt kicked. Stalin believed the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact would protect
him. FDR was away at a conference with Churchill when his strong-willed subordinates imposed harsher oil embargo conditions on Japan than he (supposedly) had intended, then he chose not to unilaterally relax them,
giving Japan little choice but to capture other oil supplies. Japanese
leaders allowed ambitious junior officers in China to make escalatory
attacks that Tokyo felt obligated to validate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Patrol
"Roosevelt's initiation of the Neutrality Patrol, which in fact also
escorted British ships, as well as orders to U.S. Navy destroyers first to actively report U-boats, then "shoot on sight", meant American neutrality
was honored more in the breach than observance."

Some weren't so eager. Lindbergh's strong participation in US preparedness
plus his (spy) mission to fly the major powers' best fighters including the Bf-109 showed him that contrary to FDR's opinion we weren't yet ready to
fight, so he resigned his Reserve commission and reluctantly spoke for
America First in the hope of postponing our involvement. Hap Arnold
proof-read his first speech.

Far from being a pacifist, he helped decide how far to push the
challengingly advanced tech of the B-29 program. After getting Ford's B-24 production line running smoothly he flew 50 combat missions in the Pacific
as a "civilian consultant", and developed the high speed, high altitude bail-out system. In a Mayo Clinic altitude chamber Lindbergh took himself to the equivalent of 48,000 feet. He was qualified because before the war he
had collaborated with his neighbor Dr Alexis Carrell on the first successful heart-lung machine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6592355/
"He also, with the pioneer aviator/engineer Charles Lindbergh, in the 1930s developed a pump that could keep whole organs alive and oxygenated."

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Dean Markley wrote:

Chamberlain was wrong. It didn't matter that Britain might be unprepared for >a land war. After all, France was right there too. And the Czechs would have >fought if they knew the French and British were going to help. I even suspect >Poland would have helped. All Chamberlain did was betray the Czechs and give >Germany time to build impressive forces. Appeasement never works.

FWIW, the view of Edouard Daladier, the French premier, when he landed back in Paris and the populace feted him like a hero:
Ah les cons! s'ils savaient... (what morons! If they only knew)

He did not want to appease Hitler, but after Chamberlain decided that he will lower his pants, Daladier felt that France (and himself as a career politician) could not safely go it alone.

But he understood completely what Churchill later put so well: "you were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, you will have war."



By the way it is saddening to see the number of idiots at all level who go in the media to recommend that Ukraine gives in to Vladimir-the-dourak.

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"DAN" wrote in message news:t0c47ip7eerac9hdumrmoak2i3cd8n33rn@4ax.com...

FWIW, the view of Edouard Daladier, the French premier, when he landed back
in
Paris and the populace feted him like a hero:
Ah les cons! s'ils savaient... (what morons! If they only knew)

-----------------
https://www.frenchasyoulikeit.com/french-swear-words/

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"DAN" wrote in message news:t0c47ip7eerac9hdumrmoak2i3cd8n33rn@4ax.com...

By the way it is saddening to see the number of idiots at all level who go
in
the media to recommend that Ukraine gives in to Vladimir-the-dourak. ---------------------------

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/88459-idiots

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