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  • Re: JP's current project in the news

    From Mark Mocho@21:1/5 to Dave Nadler on Sun Jul 9 14:52:00 2023
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 3:26:30 PM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:
    Nice pair of articles on electra.aero in July 3-16 Aviation Week, featuring JP.
    CL 6-7! Proof of concept machine to fly this year.

    Let me know when the range and payload approach 2% of a conventionally fuelled airplane.

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  • From Dave Nadler@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 9 14:26:27 2023
    Nice pair of articles on electra.aero in July 3-16 Aviation Week, featuring JP. CL 6-7! Proof of concept machine to fly this year.

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  • From Jp Stewart@21:1/5 to Mark Mocho on Sun Jul 9 20:14:36 2023
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 5:52:02 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 3:26:30 PM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:
    Nice pair of articles on electra.aero in July 3-16 Aviation Week, featuring JP.
    CL 6-7! Proof of concept machine to fly this year.
    Let me know when the range and payload approach 2% of a conventionally fuelled airplane.

    Thanks Dave :)
    Here's the shorter online article (no paywall): https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/emerging-technologies/electra-rolls-out-blown-lift-estol-demonstrator
    Demonstrator video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRO7CQi8u74

    Mark, this is conventionally fueled - burns Jet-A in a turbine and is fully competitive with a Caravan in payload/range. I fully agree that battery energy density isn't close to ready - we published this in Nature to explore effective energy density in
    aviation and batts have decades to go (See fig 2 - https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1842014). This is why it's turbine hybrid. Normally this would just add an additional inefficiency (conversion from chemical/fuel to mechanical to electrical in
    the turbogen/APU, back to mechanical at the motor) but this can be offset by aerodynamic gains with the blown-wing and turbine efficiency improvements from "right sizing" for cruise - it also fundamentally enables the STOL capability. This is not
    electrification for electrification's sake or greenwashing - this is about adding capability.

    Some more technical background: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/124175 and https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2021-3220

    Best,
    JP

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  • From Mark Mocho@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 9 20:19:27 2023
    JP- Thanks for the clarification. I just read the "electra.aero" and assumed you were trying to herd unicorns like everybody else. Turbine hybrids are much more feasible in my opinion.

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  • From hmfpamaps@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Mark Mocho on Mon Jul 10 11:26:30 2023
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 11:19:30 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    JP- Thanks for the clarification. I just read the "electra.aero" and assumed you were trying to herd unicorns like everybody else. Turbine hybrids are much more feasible in my opinion.

    Wow, that's a really fascinating project! A curiosity, how do the blown flaps work on landing? My understanding is the turbulent propwash keeps the flow attached to the flaps at high power levels, but during landing when the props are at lower power, is
    this effect weaker?

    Patrick Grady

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  • From Jp Stewart@21:1/5 to hmfp...@gmail.com on Mon Jul 10 16:51:00 2023
    On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 2:26:33 PM UTC-4, hmfp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 11:19:30 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    JP- Thanks for the clarification. I just read the "electra.aero" and assumed you were trying to herd unicorns like everybody else. Turbine hybrids are much more feasible in my opinion.
    Wow, that's a really fascinating project! A curiosity, how do the blown flaps work on landing? My understanding is the turbulent propwash keeps the flow attached to the flaps at high power levels, but during landing when the props are at lower power,
    is this effect weaker?

    Patrick Grady
    The short answer is that you approach/land "backside of the power curve" to keep the power up - this also lets you make very steep approaches.

    JP

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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Jp Stewart on Mon Jul 10 18:00:40 2023
    On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 6:51:03 PM UTC-5, Jp Stewart wrote:
    On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 2:26:33 PM UTC-4, hmfp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 11:19:30 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    JP- Thanks for the clarification. I just read the "electra.aero" and assumed you were trying to herd unicorns like everybody else. Turbine hybrids are much more feasible in my opinion.
    Wow, that's a really fascinating project! A curiosity, how do the blown flaps work on landing? My understanding is the turbulent propwash keeps the flow attached to the flaps at high power levels, but during landing when the props are at lower power,
    is this effect weaker?

    Patrick Grady
    The short answer is that you approach/land "backside of the power curve" to keep the power up - this also lets you make very steep approaches.

    JP

    And it will have a towhook?

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  • From Dave Nadler@21:1/5 to Tony on Tue Jul 11 05:54:38 2023
    On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:00:43 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
    And it will have a towhook?

    Hope not, way too slow for modern gliders...

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  • From Dan Marotta@21:1/5 to Jp Stewart on Tue Jul 11 09:25:12 2023
    I haven't followed the initial postings but, based on your latest, I
    would assume you have a reversing propeller to get you slowed and
    stopped after touchdown?

    Dan
    5J

    On 7/10/23 17:51, Jp Stewart wrote:
    On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 2:26:33 PM UTC-4, hmfp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 11:19:30 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    JP- Thanks for the clarification. I just read the "electra.aero" and assumed you were trying to herd unicorns like everybody else. Turbine hybrids are much more feasible in my opinion.
    Wow, that's a really fascinating project! A curiosity, how do the blown flaps work on landing? My understanding is the turbulent propwash keeps the flow attached to the flaps at high power levels, but during landing when the props are at lower power,
    is this effect weaker?

    Patrick Grady
    The short answer is that you approach/land "backside of the power curve" to keep the power up - this also lets you make very steep approaches.

    JP

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  • From Jp Stewart@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Thu Jul 13 12:34:59 2023
    On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:25:16 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
    I haven't followed the initial postings but, based on your latest, I
    would assume you have a reversing propeller to get you slowed and
    stopped after touchdown?

    Dan
    5J
    On 7/10/23 17:51, Jp Stewart wrote:
    On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 2:26:33 PM UTC-4, hmfp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 11:19:30 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    JP- Thanks for the clarification. I just read the "electra.aero" and assumed you were trying to herd unicorns like everybody else. Turbine hybrids are much more feasible in my opinion.
    Wow, that's a really fascinating project! A curiosity, how do the blown flaps work on landing? My understanding is the turbulent propwash keeps the flow attached to the flaps at high power levels, but during landing when the props are at lower power,
    is this effect weaker?

    Patrick Grady
    The short answer is that you approach/land "backside of the power curve" to keep the power up - this also lets you make very steep approaches.

    JP

    It's generally not needed as it lands at ~30 kts and there's not that much braking needed for 150' gnd roll given that. There are some failure cases where the capability to reverse adds value though.

    JP

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