US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees would
like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t
just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/24/2023 4:06 PM, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t

just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.


For example, I got the email invitation to the poll, but am not allowed
to actually respond to the poll, presumably because the last contest I participated in was in 2018. Our region's contest has not been held
since then, due to COVID.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t

just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Yes absolutely - we got that feedback and acted on it.

We are conducting multiple polls this year on Racing and Cross-Country flying with the general membership focused on why pilots do or don't choose to pursue those particular forms of glider flying. The poll mentioned above is focused on the the specific
details of the rules we use for SSA Sanctioned Regional and National contests. Those questions tend to benefit from not only pilots having read those rules, but also having flown under them so that opinions formed are somewhat informed by direct personal
experience. The other polls include general questions about the rules among other topics that might motivate or demotivate pilots to try racing or stick with it.

The SSA members site includes all rules polls and a summary of responses - under the section titled "Racing Rules and Process". Feel free to take a look at the topics covered and PM me with thoughts on those specific questions or broader topics related
to racing rules - or racing in general. Or post here if you prefer.

As many of you know the SSA in embarking on multiple programs to expand support for local cross-country and competition flying. There's also a new Condor racing night on Tuesdays and Thursdays - my gaming PC and VR goggles just showed up today so I'm
going to give it a go this winter.

All input is welcome.

Andy Blackburn - 9B
Chair, SSA Contest Rules Committee



On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 1:06:09 PM UTC-7, Robert S wrote:

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t

just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 5:55:25 PM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t

just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

A little strange that the system is smart enough to know I'm noit eligible to respond to the poll, but not smart enough to know that it's not necessary to send me an invitation. Earlier this year there was a fair amount of empahsis on inreasing contest
particiaption in Soaring magazine. Might be a good idea to collect input from anyone willing to respond to the poll if particaption in the poll and in contests is waning.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t

just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.
Robert, you just hit the nail on the head!!! OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 5:55:25 PM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t

just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’t

just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only speak
of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information about
such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.
Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is finished they
pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and altitude, yet this
repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hmmmm. Should be the exact same list. Though I am constantly amazed at the number of ways it is possible to mess up what would seem to be a simple list of names and email addresses. I took me a week this summer to help one person get registered on OGN -
his spam blocker keep eating the confirmations.

PM me and we'll follow up.

Andy


On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, 3C wrote:

A little strange that the system is smart enough to know I'm noit eligible to respond to the poll, but not smart enough to know that it's not necessary to send me an invitation. Earlier this year there was a fair amount of empahsis on inreasing contest

particiaption in Soaring magazine. Might be a good idea to collect input from anyone willing to respond to the poll if particaption in the poll and in contests is waning.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 8:38:21 PM UTC-4, 3C wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 5:55:25 PM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’

t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

A little strange that the system is smart enough to know I'm noit eligible to respond to the poll, but not smart enough to know that it's not necessary to send me an invitation. Earlier this year there was a fair amount of empahsis on inreasing contest

particiaption in Soaring magazine. Might be a good idea to collect input from anyone willing to respond to the poll if particaption in the poll and in contests is waning.

A bit of background on how the poll works.
All pilots who are on the ranking list may participate in the poll. This includes all that have flown in a contest in the last 3 years. It was extended back to 4 years due to participation lost due to Covid.
Getting the word out uses the SSA member messaging system. Some(many?) may not get this due to not choosing to get the e-mail from SSA, or due to SPAM blocking.
Additionally the RC posts on RAS as another way to get the word out.
In the past, as RC chair, I also directly messaged all pilots on the list using the data of e-mail addresses developed from on line entries. About 25% came back as non contact for various reasons, mostly SPAM blocking.
This also had the effect of getting me black listed as a spammer- ouch.
As to why not everyone is asked to vote in the poll. The logic is that counting weighted input to make rules decisions to make decisions on how contests should be run should be done by using input of those who have current knowledge and are most affected
by the resulting decisions.
Past studies have gathered input from a bigger group of pilots about issues related to participation. The rules are usually down the list, well behind time and expense as reasons why more people don't fly organized contests. The reality is the OLC better
fits for many pilots due to convenience and schedule flexibility.
These are my observations having spent almost 25 years as part of this process. UH

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 7:31:35 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’

t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only speak

of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information about
such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is finished

they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and altitude, yet
this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob, The Purist

My own home area has airspace and a few contest sites I fly (Perry SC is one) has airspace. Yes, it shows up on a Clearnav if you have the SUA file and properly load it.
I was asked to do the SSA contest survey, and yes, questions are on it regarding not submitting a log as well as dealing with overflying airspace.
I can feel your pain on visitors violating airspace and then going home.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 9:39:23 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 8:38:21 PM UTC-4, 3C wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 5:55:25 PM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldnâ

€™t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

A little strange that the system is smart enough to know I'm noit eligible to respond to the poll, but not smart enough to know that it's not necessary to send me an invitation. Earlier this year there was a fair amount of empahsis on inreasing

contest particiaption in Soaring magazine. Might be a good idea to collect input from anyone willing to respond to the poll if particaption in the poll and in contests is waning.

A bit of background on how the poll works.
All pilots who are on the ranking list may participate in the poll. This includes all that have flown in a contest in the last 3 years. It was extended back to 4 years due to participation lost due to Covid.
Getting the word out uses the SSA member messaging system. Some(many?) may not get this due to not choosing to get the e-mail from SSA, or due to SPAM blocking.
Additionally the RC posts on RAS as another way to get the word out.
In the past, as RC chair, I also directly messaged all pilots on the list using the data of e-mail addresses developed from on line entries. About 25% came back as non contact for various reasons, mostly SPAM blocking.
This also had the effect of getting me black listed as a spammer- ouch.
As to why not everyone is asked to vote in the poll. The logic is that counting weighted input to make rules decisions to make decisions on how contests should be run should be done by using input of those who have current knowledge and are most

affected by the resulting decisions.

Past studies have gathered input from a bigger group of pilots about issues related to participation. The rules are usually down the list, well behind time and expense as reasons why more people don't fly organized contests. The reality is the OLC

better fits for many pilots due to convenience and schedule flexibility.

These are my observations having spent almost 25 years as part of this process.
UH

The ability of the SSA to engage members via email does not work well (both for contest pilots and others). The member database is "dirty" and the SSA has no trained staff or tools that can effectively manage a multi-segment mailing list. Without the
basic blocking and tackling, everything else is compromised.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 7:31:35 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’

t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only speak

of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information about
such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is finished

they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and altitude, yet
this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob, The Purist

I do not dispute that the airpsace violations that have occurred in FL are very problematic. However, OBTP shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about what the current rules say (and have said for a LONG time).

1. If you violate airspace OR choose to not turn in a flight log, you are disqualified for the day and get an additional penalty. (Rule 12.2.5.5 and 12.2.5.6)

2. If it happens a second time (in any combination) you are sent home (Rule 11.2.2.8.3)

While I know of instances where multiple pilots have violated airspace on a single day, I don't recall an instance of a second occurrance getting someone sent home.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 11:25:39 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldnâ

€™t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only

speak of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information
about such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is finished

they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and altitude, yet
this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob, The Purist

I believe the violations are unintended, probably because the pilots are unfamiliar with the area; after all, you are guaranteed to place poorly in the contest if you enter a restricted area, because (at minimum) you lose all the points for the day and

get penalty points, too. Airspace violation is not a contest strategy, but the Seniors contest does attract a lot of pilots from out of the area. My suggestion is education: more remarks/warning in the documents sent to entrants and task specific
warnings at each day's pilot meeting. Finally, remind the pilots that their flight tracks show up on OGN, and that track will be used to determine airspace violations if they do not turn in a flight log.

In my analysis of airspace violations I see two types: "nicks" and "brain dead." Not sure that education will help much.

On a day when multiple pilots violate the same airspace, one has to question the proficiency of the task setter. IMHO.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldn’

t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only speak

of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information about
such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is finished

they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and altitude, yet
this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob, The Purist
I believe the violations are unintended, probably because the pilots are unfamiliar with the area; after all, you are guaranteed to place poorly in the contest if you enter a restricted area, because (at minimum) you lose all the points for the day and
get penalty points, too. Airspace violation is not a contest strategy, but the Seniors contest does attract a lot of pilots from out of the area. My suggestion is education: more remarks/warning in the documents sent to entrants and task specific
warnings at each day's pilot meeting. Finally, remind the pilots that their flight tracks show up on OGN, and that track will be used to determine airspace violations if they do not turn in a flight log.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 8:47:46 AM UTC-7, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 11:25:39 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we

shouldn’t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from
contest pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only

speak of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information
about such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is

finished they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and
altitude, yet this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob,
The Purist

I believe the violations are unintended, probably because the pilots are unfamiliar with the area; after all, you are guaranteed to place poorly in the contest if you enter a restricted area, because (at minimum) you lose all the points for the day

and get penalty points, too. Airspace violation is not a contest strategy, but the Seniors contest does attract a lot of pilots from out of the area. My suggestion is education: more remarks/warning in the documents sent to entrants and task specific
warnings at each day's pilot meeting. Finally, remind the pilots that their flight tracks show up on OGN, and that track will be used to determine airspace violations if they do not turn in a flight log.

In my analysis of airspace violations I see two types: "nicks" and "brain dead." Not sure that education will help much.

On a day when multiple pilots violate the same airspace, one has to question the proficiency of the task setter. IMHO.

Like using a "steering" turnpoint to get pilots around a restricted area. instead of task with a direct path through the airspace? I do wonder how these pilots ignore the excited voice from their flight computer. Mine goes hyper if I'm on a course into
it, or even just flying close to it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 2:52:53 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 8:47:46 AM UTC-7, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 11:25:39 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we

shouldn’t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from
contest pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only

speak of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information
about such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is

finished they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and
altitude, yet this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob,
The Purist

I believe the violations are unintended, probably because the pilots are unfamiliar with the area; after all, you are guaranteed to place poorly in the contest if you enter a restricted area, because (at minimum) you lose all the points for the day

and get penalty points, too. Airspace violation is not a contest strategy, but the Seniors contest does attract a lot of pilots from out of the area. My suggestion is education: more remarks/warning in the documents sent to entrants and task specific
warnings at each day's pilot meeting. Finally, remind the pilots that their flight tracks show up on OGN, and that track will be used to determine airspace violations if they do not turn in a flight log.

In my analysis of airspace violations I see two types: "nicks" and "brain dead." Not sure that education will help much.

On a day when multiple pilots violate the same airspace, one has to question the proficiency of the task setter. IMHO.

Like using a "steering" turnpoint to get pilots around a restricted area. instead of task with a direct path through the airspace? I do wonder how these pilots ignore the excited voice from their flight computer. Mine goes hyper if I'm on a course into

it, or even just flying close to it.
In reality, none of us who act as CDs or task advisors bat 1000, but staying alert to situations were mistakes are easily made is time well spent. The Orlando Class B e.g. has a floor of 6000' MSL in an area where we fly all the time, but it drops to
4000. MSL just a little further on. It's easy to mistake an alert from your computer that you can't ignore for one you can.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

> Like using a "steering" turnpoint to get pilots around a restricted area. instead of task with a direct path through the airspace? I do wonder how these pilots ignore the excited voice from their flight computer. Mine goes hyper if I'm on a course
into it, or even just flying close to it.

1. I'm running TopHat on a Kobo e-reader: no sound. The screen alerts me but I miss the audio warning provided by my now-ancient Glide Navigator II running on a Compaq 1550 (go see it in a museum, kids).
2. Years ago at the Std. Class Nationals at Caesar Creek, I was on a long task. Spotting Columbus off my left wing, I thought, "gee, I must be pretty close to that airspace." When I zoomed out to see how far, I blanched when I realized my moving map had
NO airspace boundaries on it. That morning, I had forgotten to retrieve my CompactFlash card (see it in the same museum) from the scorer, which was the way I submitted my flight trace, and replace it in the Compaq 1550. That CF card also had the waypoint
and special use airspaces files! The waypoints were still loaded in the GPS-NAV so I didn't notice anything amiss for a while. But the SUA file had to be loaded each day--and that was missing. I avoided that incursion by a few miles but later in the
flight, as the day ran out, the last solid cus were up against the Dayton/Wright-Patterson AFB airspace. With no way to assure I could stay in the clear, I had to pass them by...ultimately landing a few miles short. I added "install memory card" to my
lengthy checklist. If I hadn't noticed the absence of the airspace borders, I might have been one of those "brain dead" incursions John mentions.
3. I've flown many contests out of the Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association's airport in Fairfield, PA--a few miles from P-40 surrounding Camp David. In the past, I've occasionally thermaled up slowly to final glide over the ridge near High Rock, with the
prevailing wind pushing me back closer and closer to P-40, to the point where I had to open up my circle upwind to stay out of it each time I came around. That was stupid. In recent years, I've given P-40 a wider berth. But if I had been careless, I
might have been one of those "nicks" John mentions.

Chip Bearden
"JB"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:50:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 10:28:35 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 7:31:35 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we

shouldn’t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from
contest pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only

speak of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information
about such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is

finished they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and
altitude, yet this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob,
The Purist

I do not dispute that the airpsace violations that have occurred in FL are very problematic. However, OBTP shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about what the current rules say (and have said for a LONG time).

1. If you violate airspace OR choose to not turn in a flight log, you are disqualified for the day and get an additional penalty. (Rule 12.2.5.5 and 12.2.5.6)

2. If it happens a second time (in any combination) you are sent home (Rule 11.2.2.8.3)

While I know of instances where multiple pilots have violated airspace on a single day, I don't recall an instance of a second occurrance getting someone sent home.

John, I am fully cognizant of the penalty for the violations, you and I had a nice discussion about this problem last year when you were in Vero Beach, looks like you may have forgotten. Now we are discussing Nicks, Task Managers and laying blame on

everything except the culprit pilot. There is no reason for the violation of the Restricted areas or Class B, I fly around them all the time and I am always aware of my position in reference to any controlled airspace or Restricted Area. With the
technology that we have today there is redundancy in almost every cockpit that shows and notifies of critical airspace.

This is not like the days of past when all we had was a TCA to worry about and could only carry a folded sectional. This is a very serious issue that affects more than just contest pilots, which make up a very small overall population of the soaring

community.

The situation that we have in Florida has had increased frequency during the past few years, and if there is nothing more than a slap on the wrist it will continue and the rest of us will pay the price. Old Bob, The Purist

How many are repeat violators? If it's a small %, say less than 15%, perhaps the "slap on the wrist" is working. With OGN, the penalty (official and unofficial) goes to at least "two slaps on the wrist", as everyone can check the OGN flight traces for
pilots who must be shunned by the rest of us (or, at least an expression of disappointment).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 10:28:35 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 7:31:35 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we shouldnâ

€™t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from contest
pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will only

speak of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for information
about such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is finished

they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and altitude, yet
this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob, The Purist

I do not dispute that the airpsace violations that have occurred in FL are very problematic. However, OBTP shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about what the current rules say (and have said for a LONG time).

1. If you violate airspace OR choose to not turn in a flight log, you are disqualified for the day and get an additional penalty. (Rule 12.2.5.5 and 12.2.5.6)

2. If it happens a second time (in any combination) you are sent home (Rule 11.2.2.8.3)

While I know of instances where multiple pilots have violated airspace on a single day, I don't recall an instance of a second occurrance getting someone sent home.

John, I am fully cognizant of the penalty for the violations, you and I had a nice discussion about this problem last year when you were in Vero Beach, looks like you may have forgotten. Now we are discussing Nicks, Task Managers and laying blame on
everything except the culprit pilot. There is no reason for the violation of the Restricted areas or Class B, I fly around them all the time and I am always aware of my position in reference to any controlled airspace or Restricted Area. With the
technology that we have today there is redundancy in almost every cockpit that shows and notifies of critical airspace.
This is not like the days of past when all we had was a TCA to worry about and could only carry a folded sectional. This is a very serious issue that affects more than just contest pilots, which make up a very small overall population of the soaring
community.
The situation that we have in Florida has had increased frequency during the past few years, and if there is nothing more than a slap on the wrist it will continue and the rest of us will pay the price. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 1:58:21 PM UTC-7, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 2:52:53 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 8:47:46 AM UTC-7, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 11:25:39 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we

shouldn’t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from
contest pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will

only speak of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for
information about such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is

finished they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and
altitude, yet this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob,
The Purist

I believe the violations are unintended, probably because the pilots are unfamiliar with the area; after all, you are guaranteed to place poorly in the contest if you enter a restricted area, because (at minimum) you lose all the points for the

day and get penalty points, too. Airspace violation is not a contest strategy, but the Seniors contest does attract a lot of pilots from out of the area. My suggestion is education: more remarks/warning in the documents sent to entrants and task specific
warnings at each day's pilot meeting. Finally, remind the pilots that their flight tracks show up on OGN, and that track will be used to determine airspace violations if they do not turn in a flight log.

In my analysis of airspace violations I see two types: "nicks" and "brain dead." Not sure that education will help much.

On a day when multiple pilots violate the same airspace, one has to question the proficiency of the task setter. IMHO.

Like using a "steering" turnpoint to get pilots around a restricted area. instead of task with a direct path through the airspace? I do wonder how these pilots ignore the excited voice from their flight computer. Mine goes hyper if I'm on a course

into it, or even just flying close to it.

In reality, none of us who act as CDs or task advisors bat 1000, but staying alert to situations were mistakes are easily made is time well spent. The Orlando Class B e.g. has a floor of 6000' MSL in an area where we fly all the time, but it drops to

4000. MSL just a little further on. It's easy to mistake an alert from your computer that you can't ignore for one you can.
I don't know what would work; possibly, encourage every contestant to fly some tasks near that airspace on a Condor simulator, so they can interact with the airspace before they do it in the air. A simulator could be made available at SLGP for that
purpose for those that don't have access to Condor elsewhere. It wouldn't have to tasks, just "flying" around the airspace might be enough experience, it'd eliminate most of the violations.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 1:58:21 PM UTC-7, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 2:52:53 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 8:47:46 AM UTC-7, John Godfrey wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 11:25:39 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:55:25 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-4, Robert S wrote:

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition

Committees would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

Shouldn’t the SSA be collecting feedback from the entire membership instead of just recent contest pilots? If one of the goals is to look for opportunities to improve the rules to make contests more attractive and grow participation, we

shouldn’t just be polling the same few pilots each year. If you want to capture new ideas you need reach out to new respondents. Maybe all members should be allowed to respond and have a qualifying poll question such that you can compare responses from
contest pilots vs non-contest pilots. I suspect that would generate some interesting data for the team to analyze.

This might be a good forum to provide some of your insights about contest soaring. I know that members of the Rules Subcommittee read this site.
They are also open to comments from anyone.
UH - Former RC member and chair

UH thanks for opening the door, I choose not to do the contest thing but for those that do that is a good thing for them. The effect of contest soaring on other than the contest site is something that needs to be examined and changed. I will

only speak of how this has impacted our soaring site and others in Florida. SLGP which host the Seniors , AKA, Geritol Classic, has had pilot's violate airspace that has created alarm within the FAA FSDO that has prompted phone calls asking for
information about such violators. Violation of Class B is a serious violation and with all that is going on with NMAC's even as recent as last Saturday, 10-21-23, which is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.

Over the years there have been repeated violations of class B in Orlando and Tampa airspace, in some instances pilots have omitted turning in their required trace just to take the penalty and continue to participate, and when the contest is

finished they pack up their gliders and go home , not to worry about it again. So why does the contest committee not take a more serious approach to such a violation. The gliders in question are fitted with instrumentation that notes airspace and
altitude, yet this repeatedly happens almost each year. If the rules committee were governed more seriously these violations would be and should be handled differently, yet when inmates are running the asylum it becomes just a slap on the wrist. Old Bob,
The Purist

I believe the violations are unintended, probably because the pilots are unfamiliar with the area; after all, you are guaranteed to place poorly in the contest if you enter a restricted area, because (at minimum) you lose all the points for the

day and get penalty points, too. Airspace violation is not a contest strategy, but the Seniors contest does attract a lot of pilots from out of the area. My suggestion is education: more remarks/warning in the documents sent to entrants and task specific
warnings at each day's pilot meeting. Finally, remind the pilots that their flight tracks show up on OGN, and that track will be used to determine airspace violations if they do not turn in a flight log.

In my analysis of airspace violations I see two types: "nicks" and "brain dead." Not sure that education will help much.

On a day when multiple pilots violate the same airspace, one has to question the proficiency of the task setter. IMHO.

Like using a "steering" turnpoint to get pilots around a restricted area. instead of task with a direct path through the airspace? I do wonder how these pilots ignore the excited voice from their flight computer. Mine goes hyper if I'm on a course

into it, or even just flying close to it.

In reality, none of us who act as CDs or task advisors bat 1000, but staying alert to situations were mistakes are easily made is time well spent. The Orlando Class B e.g. has a floor of 6000' MSL in an area where we fly all the time, but it drops to

4000. MSL just a little further on. It's easy to mistake an alert from your computer that you can't ignore for one you can.
How about a 2nm horizontal buffer zone and a 500' vertical buffer zone for all the restricted airspaces? At least, the
"nicks" would not be violations, and maybe it would help with the "brain dead" violations.

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Another way nicks can occur is by having a small waring buffer. I have almost been caught by this, because where I fly at home, the down wind leg to the airport is very close to airspace, but then once away there is very little to worry about. I have
warnings very tight, but if I don't remember to adjust this before a contest, then you can find yourself working a weak low thermal save while drifting closer towards airspace than you like.

Kevin
92

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On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 5:25:06 PM UTC-4, John Godfrey wrote:

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 1:21:06 PM UTC-4, kevin anderson wrote:

Another way nicks can occur is by having a small waring buffer. I have almost been caught by this, because where I fly at home, the down wind leg to the airport is very close to airspace, but then once away there is very little to worry about. I have

warnings very tight, but if I don't remember to adjust this before a contest, then you can find yourself working a weak low thermal save while drifting closer towards airspace than you like.

Kevin
92

The question I neglected to pose to OBTP is: "What do you advocate the rule to be?"

On the phone Bob advocated ejection on the first offense.
Harsh- But-------
Maybe it could have an effect.
UH

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On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 1:21:06 PM UTC-4, kevin anderson wrote:

Another way nicks can occur is by having a small waring buffer. I have almost been caught by this, because where I fly at home, the down wind leg to the airport is very close to airspace, but then once away there is very little to worry about. I have

warnings very tight, but if I don't remember to adjust this before a contest, then you can find yourself working a weak low thermal save while drifting closer towards airspace than you like.

Kevin
92

The question I neglected to pose to OBTP is: "What do you advocate the rule to be?"

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On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 5:25:06 PM UTC-4, John Godfrey wrote:

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 1:21:06 PM UTC-4, kevin anderson wrote:

Another way nicks can occur is by having a small waring buffer. I have almost been caught by this, because where I fly at home, the down wind leg to the airport is very close to airspace, but then once away there is very little to worry about. I have

warnings very tight, but if I don't remember to adjust this before a contest, then you can find yourself working a weak low thermal save while drifting closer towards airspace than you like.

Kevin
92

The question I neglected to pose to OBTP is: "What do you advocate the rule to be?"

John, We have a bigger problem than many realize, recent events are adding to the airspace and safety issue here in Florida and have national implications, not bad but good. Things happening behind the scenes can benefit soaring as a whole, I will leave
it at that.
The advocation of the rule, doing nothing, is nothing, I might pose the question to others, what have you done to correct this problem? Many people are certainly cognizant of the problem of airspace violations, not only in Florida, but other venue's as
well, there is much to come in the near future, just stay tuned.
As far as the RULE, I do not race, at this stage of life it does not interest me, I do visit racing contest and enjoy my visits and friends from the past. The present rule that provides a loss of the daily score and an extra point deduction does not
solve the problem, so work toward solving the problem. There is no reason to violate Class B, none what so ever! Being brain dead is no excuse for a violation or so called nick. If I can thread the needle multiple times, which is restricted from ground
to 14k, stay out of Class B at the top end where I have only a 3k floor, then why is there a problem elsewhere?
I sat at a pilot meeting last year and the year prior and I never heard one word about airspace, I did hear more about a hard deck for thermaling, but no mention of airspace violations. So I will play devils advocate and answer your question. There is no
excuse for violating Restricted or Class B, if a contestant refuses to submit a trace, then you pack up and call it quits, if a violation is indicated on a trace, well, get in line and pack up the motorhome and enjoy your ride home. It is amazing to me
that our club handles airspace violations more serious than contest. Being tough benefits everyone, doing nothing , benefits the offenders, the paradigm needs to change. Bob Youngblood, OBTP

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On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 2:43:26 PM UTC-7, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 5:25:06 PM UTC-4, John Godfrey wrote:

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 1:21:06 PM UTC-4, kevin anderson wrote:

Another way nicks can occur is by having a small waring buffer. I have almost been caught by this, because where I fly at home, the down wind leg to the airport is very close to airspace, but then once away there is very little to worry about. I

have warnings very tight, but if I don't remember to adjust this before a contest, then you can find yourself working a weak low thermal save while drifting closer towards airspace than you like.

Kevin
92

The question I neglected to pose to OBTP is: "What do you advocate the rule to be?"

On the phone Bob advocated ejection on the first offense.
Harsh- But-------
Maybe it could have an effect.
UH

Has anyone asked the violators what would have kept them from entering restricted airspace? If we don't know the answer to that question, we may spend years fixing the problem.

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On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 12:46:44 PM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:

US Racing Pilots.

Due to a low initial response rate the US Racing Pilot Poll has been extended to October 31, 2023. If you are an active racing pilot who has participated in a sanctioned contest in the US in the past four years the Rules and Competition Committees

would like to hear from you before Halloween.

The poll can be found online at:

https://bit.ly/ssarules

For the Rules Committee,

Andy Blackburn
Chair

I didn't see results posted for the poll, did I miss them?

Oh, and bump something meaningful to the top.

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