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  • Oh the humanity!

    From kinsell@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 31 09:32:42 2023
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/18-children-injured-blaze-nyc-basement-daycare-rcna67604

    Sure glad nobody uses these in gliders. Oh Wait!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J6 aka Airport Bum@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 31 09:58:00 2023
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 10:32:46 AM UTC-6, kinsell wrote:

    Yes, the typical lithium ion batteries do not suffer manufacturing flaws, damage, or abuse well…..

    I use a different chemistry, lithium iron phosphate, in my ASH-26E, (two batteries, ~16-20 amp hour each). I have a third that I use as a “donor” battery in a field charging rig. All are reputable brands and have Battery Management Systems. The
    basic LiFePO4 chemistry is supposedly less prone to damage/abuse and less (or not at all?) prone to thermal runaway than the typical lithium ion types. Supposedly…..

    Source of my info:

    A wiki on LiFePO4 batteries, see the Safety section: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

    This is the website that the above wiki references, see the section on LiFePO4 chemistry: https://www.mpoweruk.com/lithiumS.htm

    Yes, I know, don’t believe everything you see on the internet, hahaha. This is why I ask: Is there anyone out there expert on battery technology that can confirm or comment on the safety of LiFePO4 vs typical lithium ion? I also would be interested
    in expert comment on the safety of LiFePO4 vs our standard sealed lead acid, gel cell, AGM etc.

    Cheers,
    Jim J6

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/18-children-injured-blaze-nyc-basement-daycare-rcna67604

    Sure glad nobody uses these in gliders. Oh Wait!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Mocho@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 31 11:31:28 2023
    This is a Dropbox link to a study by the FAA on the relative safety of various lithium chemistry batteries. The put a variety of lithium cells through some pretty rigorous tests, including physical destruction, to determine which type is "safest" for use
    in aircraft. The report is a few years old, but I assume the data are still valid.

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/zWHqyQrgOUCFxoD0

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J6 aka Airport Bum@21:1/5 to Mark Mocho on Tue Jan 31 12:30:27 2023
    Wow, Mark, great info!

    I skimmed the report, and found this: " In general, of all of the lithium-ion cells that were tested, LiFePO4 would be considered the safest cathode material because of the relatively low temperature rise and the resulting low likelihood for thermal
    runaway to propagate. "

    This makes me feel fairly good, but it appears there may still be hazards associated with LiFePO4, perhaps toxic gas release. And it appears that they still get plenty hot.... I plan on reviewing the report in more detail soon.

    I would still love to hear about safety of LiFePO4 relative to our common sealed lead acid, gel cell, AGM etc.

    Cheers,
    Jim J6

    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:31:30 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
    This is a Dropbox link to a study by the FAA on the relative safety of various lithium chemistry batteries. The put a variety of lithium cells through some pretty rigorous tests, including physical destruction, to determine which type is "safest" for
    use in aircraft. The report is a few years old, but I assume the data are still valid.

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/zWHqyQrgOUCFxoD0

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From youngblood8116@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Eric Greenwell on Tue Jan 31 16:46:05 2023
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 7:40:19 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:32:46 AM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/18-children-injured-blaze-nyc-basement-daycare-rcna67604

    Sure glad nobody uses these in gliders. Oh Wait!
    The children's health and safety were sabotaged by people that ignored the proper operation of the batteries and were using the batteries where they were not supposed to be. Blaming the batteires is like blaming the gasoline driving cars down the road
    that crash into each other for the 35,000+ deaths a year. The children are the innocent victims of ignorant or uncaring people, and their unfortunate situation is very different than a glider pilot that literally "knows what he is getting into" when he
    steps into the cockpit of a glider, regardless of what it is powered by - gasoline, batteries, or a towplane. He accepts the risk involved for the benefits he receives. It's sensible to have discussions of batteries and gliders, but let's keep it the
    glider realm.
    Eric, it must be cold up there in Washington state, history is a good does of reality. OBTP

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Marotta@21:1/5 to youngbl...@gmail.com on Tue Jan 31 17:53:49 2023
    That was a cold gas generator as used to inflate escape slides and
    before lithium batteries were so prevalent.

    Yeah, I worked in the engineering of a major airline after getting
    furloughed from the cockpit.

    Dan
    5J

    On 1/31/23 17:30, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
    Maybe Value Jet will give you a recall. Old Bob, The Purist

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Eric Greenwell@21:1/5 to kinsell on Tue Jan 31 16:40:16 2023
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:32:46 AM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/18-children-injured-blaze-nyc-basement-daycare-rcna67604

    Sure glad nobody uses these in gliders. Oh Wait!
    The children's health and safety were sabotaged by people that ignored the proper operation of the batteries and were using the batteries where they were not supposed to be. Blaming the batteires is like blaming the gasoline driving cars down the road
    that crash into each other for the 35,000+ deaths a year. The children are the innocent victims of ignorant or uncaring people, and their unfortunate situation is very different than a glider pilot that literally "knows what he is getting into" when he
    steps into the cockpit of a glider, regardless of what it is powered by - gasoline, batteries, or a towplane. He accepts the risk involved for the benefits he receives. It's sensible to have discussions of batteries and gliders, but let's keep it the
    glider realm.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From youngblood8116@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 31 16:30:05 2023
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:30:30 PM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
    Wow, Mark, great info!

    I skimmed the report, and found this: " In general, of all of the lithium-ion cells that were tested, LiFePO4 would be considered the safest cathode material because of the relatively low temperature rise and the resulting low likelihood for thermal
    runaway to propagate. "

    This makes me feel fairly good, but it appears there may still be hazards associated with LiFePO4, perhaps toxic gas release. And it appears that they still get plenty hot.... I plan on reviewing the report in more detail soon.

    I would still love to hear about safety of LiFePO4 relative to our common sealed lead acid, gel cell, AGM etc.

    Cheers,
    Jim J6
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:31:30 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
    This is a Dropbox link to a study by the FAA on the relative safety of various lithium chemistry batteries. The put a variety of lithium cells through some pretty rigorous tests, including physical destruction, to determine which type is "safest" for
    use in aircraft. The report is a few years old, but I assume the data are still valid.

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/zWHqyQrgOUCFxoD0
    What really impresses me is that you guys are somewhat rocket scientist, oh, so they use it in a motorglider so it must be ok. I guess that is why if you ship something they request the information on the lithium batteries regardless of type, oh, I guess
    FedX, USPS, DHL, and every other carrier in the world should ignore the hazard son lithium batteries. Maybe Value Jet will give you a recall. Old Bob, The Purist

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Eric Greenwell@21:1/5 to youngbl...@gmail.com on Tue Jan 31 20:22:05 2023
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 4:46:07 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 7:40:19 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:32:46 AM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/18-children-injured-blaze-nyc-basement-daycare-rcna67604

    Sure glad nobody uses these in gliders. Oh Wait!
    The children's health and safety were sabotaged by people that ignored the proper operation of the batteries and were using the batteries where they were not supposed to be. Blaming the batteires is like blaming the gasoline driving cars down the
    road that crash into each other for the 35,000+ deaths a year. The children are the innocent victims of ignorant or uncaring people, and their unfortunate situation is very different than a glider pilot that literally "knows what he is getting into" when
    he steps into the cockpit of a glider, regardless of what it is powered by - gasoline, batteries, or a towplane. He accepts the risk involved for the benefits he receives. It's sensible to have discussions of batteries and gliders, but let's keep it the
    glider realm.
    Eric, it must be cold up there in Washington state, history is a good does of reality. OBTP
    Maybe we aren't on the same page: Dave and I are talking about large batteries with 100s of cells used at high output to power electric sailplanes; Jim is talking about small batteries (12v, 10-20 AH) with four cells used at low output to power radios
    and flight computers. And the LiFePO4 chemistry of these batteries Jim and so many other pilots are using on their instruments is NOT used to power electric sailplanes. It's a very safe chemistry, great for instrument power, but the kg/watt is too high
    for powering electric sailplanes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)