I have been away for a few days dealing with health issues brought on by possibly reading RAS and trying to figure out the Standard Deviation of the Mean, between the East Coast tows and the West Coast tows. If the variance is somewhere in between do the
West Coast MG guys tale 4500 AGL tows. Just something for Terrible Tommy to think about. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

We need to make sure to use the correct semantics when talking about tow altitude.
When referring to tow (or motoring) altitude, it is neither MSL or AGL, but above takeoff altitude.
So for example a 6000 feet tow from Hollister, is 6250 MSL, and the release maybe only couple thousand feet AGL, depend where exactly you release over the mountains.
Also the long tows are more common mostly near the coastal ranges of California which are influenced by stable marin air, vs the Sierras and Great Basin which only require couple thousand feet tows (except in wave conditions which normally require higher
tows).

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 2:42:15 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

I have been away for a few days dealing with health issues brought on by possibly reading RAS and trying to figure out the Standard Deviation of the Mean, between the East Coast tows and the West Coast tows. If the variance is somewhere in between do

the West Coast MG guys tale 4500 AGL tows. Just something for Terrible Tommy to think about. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 8:12:56 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

We need to make sure to use the correct semantics when talking about tow altitude.
When referring to tow (or motoring) altitude, it is neither MSL or AGL, but above takeoff altitude.
So for example a 6000 feet tow from Hollister, is 6250 MSL, and the release maybe only couple thousand feet AGL, depend where exactly you release over the mountains.
Also the long tows are more common mostly near the coastal ranges of California which are influenced by stable marin air, vs the Sierras and Great Basin which only require couple thousand feet tows (except in wave conditions which normally require

higher tows).

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 2:42:15 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

I have been away for a few days dealing with health issues brought on by possibly reading RAS and trying to figure out the Standard Deviation of the Mean, between the East Coast tows and the West Coast tows. If the variance is somewhere in between do

the West Coast MG guys tale 4500 AGL tows. Just something for Terrible Tommy to think about. OBTP
Ramy, my references are always AGL, here in the great conservative state of Florida we have not much choice but to address flights in AGL. Yes, I have been to Williams and am cognizant of the tow height requirement to get to the mountains. When I examine
some of yours and others great flights out West I do not ever look at MSL altitudes, I always look at AGL altitudes.
At the end of most all flights in my part of the country myself and others evaluate flights based on AGL attitudes. There is a huge difference in doing a 300 to 500K flight when you are max 3k AGL vs 6K AGL. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 5:12:56 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

We need to make sure to use the correct semantics when talking about tow altitude.
When referring to tow (or motoring) altitude, it is neither MSL or AGL, but above takeoff altitude.
So for example a 6000 feet tow from Hollister, is 6250 MSL, and the release maybe only couple thousand feet AGL, depend where exactly you release over the mountains.
Also the long tows are more common mostly near the coastal ranges of California which are influenced by stable marin air, vs the Sierras and Great Basin which only require couple thousand feet tows (except in wave conditions which normally require

higher tows).

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 2:42:15 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

I have been away for a few days dealing with health issues brought on by possibly reading RAS and trying to figure out the Standard Deviation of the Mean, between the East Coast tows and the West Coast tows. If the variance is somewhere in between do

the West Coast MG guys tale 4500 AGL tows. Just something for Terrible Tommy to think about. OBTP

Why would anyone, including me, care about your tow statistics? You are just consuming the few brain cells you have left. I am more interested in your fuel bill.

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 11:14:47 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 8:12:56 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

We need to make sure to use the correct semantics when talking about tow altitude.
When referring to tow (or motoring) altitude, it is neither MSL or AGL, but above takeoff altitude.
So for example a 6000 feet tow from Hollister, is 6250 MSL, and the release maybe only couple thousand feet AGL, depend where exactly you release over the mountains.
Also the long tows are more common mostly near the coastal ranges of California which are influenced by stable marin air, vs the Sierras and Great Basin which only require couple thousand feet tows (except in wave conditions which normally require

higher tows).

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 2:42:15 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

I have been away for a few days dealing with health issues brought on by possibly reading RAS and trying to figure out the Standard Deviation of the Mean, between the East Coast tows and the West Coast tows. If the variance is somewhere in between

do the West Coast MG guys tale 4500 AGL tows. Just something for Terrible Tommy to think about. OBTP

Ramy, my references are always AGL, here in the great conservative state of Florida we have not much choice but to address flights in AGL. Yes, I have been to Williams and am cognizant of the tow height requirement to get to the mountains. When I

examine some of yours and others great flights out West I do not ever look at MSL altitudes, I always look at AGL altitudes.

At the end of most all flights in my part of the country myself and others evaluate flights based on AGL attitudes. There is a huge difference in doing a 300 to 500K flight when you are max 3k AGL vs 6K AGL. OBTP

AGL may be useful way to look at things in Florida, or other areas with small variations in elevation. In mountainous regions, not so useful, I think. Flying from Parowan, UT, for example, the elevation can vary 4000MSL near Page, to 13,000MSL in the
Unita mountains. Your 3000'AGL is 16,000MSL there, but only 7000'MSL by Page. Even over a 20 mile distance, you can have 5000' variations in AGL while the glider is cruising at a (relatively) steady altitude, and AGL isn't much help in understanding
things when you have mountains: you get over them with MSL, not AGL.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 2:42:15 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

I have been away for a few days dealing with health issues brought on by possibly reading RAS and trying to figure out the Standard Deviation of the Mean, between the East Coast tows and the West Coast tows. If the variance is somewhere in between do

the West Coast MG guys tale 4500 AGL tows. Just something for Terrible Tommy to think about. OBTP
The high tows you see at Hollister and Williams are to get to soarable terrain. Not just to start higher. On a typical day at either, if you tow to 1500 AGL at the airport you will have a 15 minute flight, even if you are the current national champion.
At Truckee, 1500 or even 1000' AGL tows were commonly enough, until the control tower mandated 2000' tows. You cannot compare tows at different sites, without considering the widely varying conditions at those sites. Doing so is meaningless. Every place
I've been, the motorgliders shut off at about the same altitude as the towed gliders release.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

A couple of comments:

The first time I flew at Durango Soaring, I was told to stay on tow to
the top of the canyon but I released in good lift below the top. I
literally beat the tow plane back to the runway.

I can't shut down at the same altitude as the towed gliders due to the requirement to cool down the turbocharged engine first. Sure, it's at
idle, but it shows up in the IGC file as engine on. Good thing I just
fly for fun and leave the money and hot chicks to the more serious pilots...

Dan
5J

On 5/29/23 22:42, jfitch wrote:

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 2:42:15 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

I have been away for a few days dealing with health issues brought on by possibly reading RAS and trying to figure out the Standard Deviation of the Mean, between the East Coast tows and the West Coast tows. If the variance is somewhere in between do

the West Coast MG guys tale 4500 AGL tows. Just something for Terrible Tommy to think about. OBTP

The high tows you see at Hollister and Williams are to get to soarable terrain. Not just to start higher. On a typical day at either, if you tow to 1500 AGL at the airport you will have a 15 minute flight, even if you are the current national champion.

At Truckee, 1500 or even 1000' AGL tows were commonly enough, until the control tower mandated 2000' tows. You cannot compare tows at different sites, without considering the widely varying conditions at those sites. Doing so is meaningless. Every place
I've been, the motorgliders shut off at about the same altitude as the towed gliders release.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)