On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would
need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying "thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and
ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're
comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of
running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I
add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could self-
launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport, at
your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:17:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying "thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're
comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of
running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could self-

launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport, at
your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

Eric, pay close attention, I will try once more to explain why being a PURIST is the ultimate in soaring. Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring. Sure, I
could easily go out and buy one of those fancy tailwheel oriented motorgliders but us PURIST always enjoy the challenge of the last thermal getting us home instead of some propeller swinging queer looking contraption that pops up to make me look good, so
I can sit around the campfire and gloat about how much battery or fuel that I used. That is, during the process of ignoring the airplane by paying more attention to the GMHB that ends up in killing the MG pilot. Now, all you motorglider whack jobs want
to talk about is a steerable tail wheel, next you motorglider guys will be wanting AC in the cockpit of your motorglider's. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:09:33 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:17:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying "thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could self-

launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport, at
your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

Eric, pay close attention, I will try once more to explain why being a PURIST is the ultimate in soaring. Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring. Sure, I

could easily go out and buy one of those fancy tailwheel oriented motorgliders but us PURIST always enjoy the challenge of the last thermal getting us home instead of some propeller swinging queer looking contraption that pops up to make me look good, so
I can sit around the campfire and gloat about how much battery or fuel that I used. That is, during the process of ignoring the airplane by paying more attention to the GMHB that ends up in killing the MG pilot. Now, all you motorglider whack jobs want
to talk about is a steerable tail wheel, next you motorglider guys will be wanting AC in the cockpit of your motorglider's. OBTP
Cooling the pilot may be much more practical than I first thought, particularly in an electric glider that could easily run a pump. Check it out: https://www.thewarmingstore.com/compcooler.html

Cooling vests would've been VERY welcome at the Hobbs contest I flew years ago, and the last time I flew from Bishop.
Eric

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I've had my ASH 31 for a bit over a year now: 60 flts, 300hrs, 24,000km. I love it (nothing has broke yet so there's that). I started with a lot of trepidation regarding complexity, costs, safety, etc thinking the negatives might outweigh the positives
and I'd regret the decision. Instead, freedom of self-launch, much reduced retrieval anxiety, and great soaring performance have made this a wonderful step up from my DG300 (which I really enjoyed as well). I just flew on Tuesday (when my club is
normally closed), self-launched, made a mistake and had to motor up for a few miles to the next thermal, shutdown the motor and then flew a really nice 500km flight after that. In that single flight, my 31 delivered on every promise I hoped for when I
bought it.

I've mostly self-launched just because I like doing it and it guarantees my target launch time. I've had 4-5 restarts out on course and I can say this: I hate giving up on a flight - landing out or restarting on course just sucks! I work my butt off to
avoid them but my rate seems steady between my prior DG300's flights and now the 31's. But, wow, avoiding the retrieve hassle is a soothing salve to my wounded ambition. The independence to go soaring whenever the sky is calling can't be understated.
At most, I just make sure my wife and maybe a friend are tracking the flight to make sure it concludes safely.

So now I'm looking at electrics with the idea that I'm not getting any younger, lead times are an issue, and I want to enjoy it while I can. I love the concept of electric simplicity but the current offerings reveal troubling compromises.

Neither the AS33 or JS3 have steerable tailwheels. After flying with one, I just don't want to go backwards. It's hard to believe they are not an option on these gliders but the manufacturers opted for retractable performance points instead. I fly
from a gravel gliderport 99% of time - I still want the steerable tailwheel. I've been to Moriarty a few times and plan to fly from a few northern AZ and Utah airports next season. Can't imagine the hassle a fixed tailwheel taxi would be in those
places.

I pretty much would have to insist on removable batteries. My current glider's avionic and motor start batteries are a real hassle to remove and replace - about an hour at least. My field has no electrical utilities so charging them in-situ requires a
solar panel, charge controller, donor storage battery, and other off-grid charging HW. It works fine but I can't imagine scaling that to a 8kWhr solution. Lugging a gas generator on a safari trip is a no-go for me.

I heard a rumor that, for one of these electric gliders, max battery temperature to initiate self-launch is limited to 100degF (I have not confirmed this). Another issue is the motor controller/inverter temperature limits. My gliderport went the entire
summer (and even today) over 100degF at launch time.

I also worry about battery fires (mostly during charging). I'd like to see newer chemistries that alleviate this issue but that is not going to happen anytime soon.

I'd probably jump on an electric with removable batteries, broad temperature range margin, reasonable battery max power out margin, steerable tailwheel, and competitive soaring performance (all while accepting the risks of an inflight battery fire). It'
s hard to see a reason to move on from the 31 but if the right solution emerges (SH?) ... I'm not getting any younger.

JJ

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 7:05:15 AM UTC+10, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:09:33 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:17:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying "thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self
launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I
add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could self-

launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport, at
your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

Eric, pay close attention, I will try once more to explain why being a PURIST is the ultimate in soaring. Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring. Sure,

I could easily go out and buy one of those fancy tailwheel oriented motorgliders but us PURIST always enjoy the challenge of the last thermal getting us home instead of some propeller swinging queer looking contraption that pops up to make me look good,
so I can sit around the campfire and gloat about how much battery or fuel that I used. That is, during the process of ignoring the airplane by paying more attention to the GMHB that ends up in killing the MG pilot. Now, all you motorglider whack jobs
want to talk about is a steerable tail wheel, next you motorglider guys will be wanting AC in the cockpit of your motorglider's. OBTP

Cooling the pilot may be much more practical than I first thought, particularly in an electric glider that could easily run a pump. Check it out: https://www.thewarmingstore.com/compcooler.html

Cooling vests would've been VERY welcome at the Hobbs contest I flew years ago, and the last time I flew from Bishop.
Eric

I have that exact system and have used it in my glider - no good for tasks longer than 2 hours even with a 3L icebag. I do wonder if a flush 'radiator' system could be mounted to cool the pilot to at least outside air temperature with less drag/noise
than a vent though. Someone better at heat transfer calculations can tell me if that's a dumb idea.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 7:58:32 AM UTC+10, John Johnson wrote:

I've had my ASH 31 for a bit over a year now: 60 flts, 300hrs, 24,000km. I love it (nothing has broke yet so there's that). I started with a lot of trepidation regarding complexity, costs, safety, etc thinking the negatives might outweigh the positives

and I'd regret the decision. Instead, freedom of self-launch, much reduced retrieval anxiety, and great soaring performance have made this a wonderful step up from my DG300 (which I really enjoyed as well). I just flew on Tuesday (when my club is
normally closed), self-launched, made a mistake and had to motor up for a few miles to the next thermal, shutdown the motor and then flew a really nice 500km flight after that. In that single flight, my 31 delivered on every promise I hoped for when I
bought it.

I've mostly self-launched just because I like doing it and it guarantees my target launch time. I've had 4-5 restarts out on course and I can say this: I hate giving up on a flight - landing out or restarting on course just sucks! I work my butt off to

avoid them but my rate seems steady between my prior DG300's flights and now the 31's. But, wow, avoiding the retrieve hassle is a soothing salve to my wounded ambition. The independence to go soaring whenever the sky is calling can't be understated. At
most, I just make sure my wife and maybe a friend are tracking the flight to make sure it concludes safely.

So now I'm looking at electrics with the idea that I'm not getting any younger, lead times are an issue, and I want to enjoy it while I can. I love the concept of electric simplicity but the current offerings reveal troubling compromises.

Neither the AS33 or JS3 have steerable tailwheels. After flying with one, I just don't want to go backwards. It's hard to believe they are not an option on these gliders but the manufacturers opted for retractable performance points instead. I fly from

a gravel gliderport 99% of time - I still want the steerable tailwheel. I've been to Moriarty a few times and plan to fly from a few northern AZ and Utah airports next season. Can't imagine the hassle a fixed tailwheel taxi would be in those places.

I pretty much would have to insist on removable batteries. My current glider's avionic and motor start batteries are a real hassle to remove and replace - about an hour at least. My field has no electrical utilities so charging them in-situ requires a

solar panel, charge controller, donor storage battery, and other off-grid charging HW. It works fine but I can't imagine scaling that to a 8kWhr solution. Lugging a gas generator on a safari trip is a no-go for me.

I heard a rumor that, for one of these electric gliders, max battery temperature to initiate self-launch is limited to 100degF (I have not confirmed this). Another issue is the motor controller/inverter temperature limits. My gliderport went the entire

summer (and even today) over 100degF at launch time.

I also worry about battery fires (mostly during charging). I'd like to see newer chemistries that alleviate this issue but that is not going to happen anytime soon.

I'd probably jump on an electric with removable batteries, broad temperature range margin, reasonable battery max power out margin, steerable tailwheel, and competitive soaring performance (all while accepting the risks of an inflight battery fire). It'

s hard to see a reason to move on from the 31 but if the right solution emerges (SH?) ... I'm not getting any younger.

JJ

What - every time you need to make a turn you shut down get out and pick up the tailboom? Those MG tailbooms are heavy.

I'm not an aircraft designer but I think they're heavy *because* they're steerable, or rather being heavy is a desirable characteristic of a steerable tailwheel. On fixed wheel gliders it's quite manageable, at least on the Diana I can pick it up with
one hand (or even one finger via the tail dolly handle)

I heard a rumor that, for one of these electric gliders, max battery temperature to initiate self-launch is limited to 100degF (I have not confirmed this). Another issue is the motor controller/inverter temperature limits. My gliderport went the entire

summer (and even today) over 100degF at launch time.
I can tell you neither a Diana 2 in Australia nor a JS3RES in Europe has problems with battery temperatures. Never seen a warning on either with plenty of launches on both.
With OAT in the high 30c's the JS3RES usually goes overtemp on the controller around 400ft and automatically throttles back from 40kW (very strong climb, 800fpm dry) to 25kW (adequate climb ~300-400fpm). After a few thousand feet it goes overtemp on the
motor too requiring a sawtooth profile. I have heard talk of further revisions to improve both of those. I think it'll be suitable for anything except the most hostile Western US/Australian summer days.
Only self-launching while ballasted in 48c have I ever seen temperature warnings on the FES motor, and only the first stage of warning.

Battery removals of both the FES and RES systems are annoyingly fiddly, but I concur with the above that unless you're not planning to ever leave your own airfield, batteries in the wings will be a major pain in the arse. Only one out of three events I
went to in Europe this year had any strategy for charging outside. I don't think you'll make yourself popular leaving a generator running on a fine European summer afternoon.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:58:32 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:

I've had my ASH 31 for a bit over a year now: 60 flts, 300hrs, 24,000km. I love it (nothing has broke yet so there's that). I started with a lot of trepidation regarding complexity, costs, safety, etc thinking the negatives might outweigh the positives

and I'd regret the decision. Instead, freedom of self-launch, much reduced retrieval anxiety, and great soaring performance have made this a wonderful step up from my DG300 (which I really enjoyed as well). I just flew on Tuesday (when my club is
normally closed), self-launched, made a mistake and had to motor up for a few miles to the next thermal, shutdown the motor and then flew a really nice 500km flight after that. In that single flight, my 31 delivered on every promise I hoped for when I
bought it.

I've mostly self-launched just because I like doing it and it guarantees my target launch time. I've had 4-5 restarts out on course and I can say this: I hate giving up on a flight - landing out or restarting on course just sucks! I work my butt off to

avoid them but my rate seems steady between my prior DG300's flights and now the 31's. But, wow, avoiding the retrieve hassle is a soothing salve to my wounded ambition. The independence to go soaring whenever the sky is calling can't be understated. At
most, I just make sure my wife and maybe a friend are tracking the flight to make sure it concludes safely.

So now I'm looking at electrics with the idea that I'm not getting any younger, lead times are an issue, and I want to enjoy it while I can. I love the concept of electric simplicity but the current offerings reveal troubling compromises.

Neither the AS33 or JS3 have steerable tailwheels. After flying with one, I just don't want to go backwards. It's hard to believe they are not an option on these gliders but the manufacturers opted for retractable performance points instead. I fly from

a gravel gliderport 99% of time - I still want the steerable tailwheel. I've been to Moriarty a few times and plan to fly from a few northern AZ and Utah airports next season. Can't imagine the hassle a fixed tailwheel taxi would be in those places.

I pretty much would have to insist on removable batteries. My current glider's avionic and motor start batteries are a real hassle to remove and replace - about an hour at least. My field has no electrical utilities so charging them in-situ requires a

solar panel, charge controller, donor storage battery, and other off-grid charging HW. It works fine but I can't imagine scaling that to a 8kWhr solution. Lugging a gas generator on a safari trip is a no-go for me.

I heard a rumor that, for one of these electric gliders, max battery temperature to initiate self-launch is limited to 100degF (I have not confirmed this). Another issue is the motor controller/inverter temperature limits. My gliderport went the entire

summer (and even today) over 100degF at launch time.

I also worry about battery fires (mostly during charging). I'd like to see newer chemistries that alleviate this issue but that is not going to happen anytime soon.

I'd probably jump on an electric with removable batteries, broad temperature range margin, reasonable battery max power out margin, steerable tailwheel, and competitive soaring performance (all while accepting the risks of an inflight battery fire). It'

s hard to see a reason to move on from the 31 but if the right solution emerges (SH?) ... I'm not getting any younger.

JJ

Hi John,

You have done an excellent job of summarizing the pros and cons of ICE vs electric. The only thing I will add is that the ICE technology has been around for some 60+ years and the issues are well understood. That cannot be said for electrics, and every
iteration of their technology (NiMH vs every lithium chemistry) pretty much resets the clock.

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:09:33 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:17:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying "thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could self-

launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport, at
your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

Eric, pay close attention, I will try once more to explain why being a PURIST is the ultimate in soaring. Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring. Sure, I

could easily go out and buy one of those fancy tailwheel oriented motorgliders but us PURIST always enjoy the challenge of the last thermal getting us home instead of some propeller swinging queer looking contraption that pops up to make me look good, so
I can sit around the campfire and gloat about how much battery or fuel that I used. That is, during the process of ignoring the airplane by paying more attention to the GMHB that ends up in killing the MG pilot. Now, all you motorglider whack jobs want
to talk about is a steerable tail wheel, next you motorglider guys will be wanting AC in the cockpit of your motorglider's. OBTP

"Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring." Bob, Bob: you continue to conflate YOUR values with everyone else's values. Your sentence does not describe AT
ALL why I go soaring. Or most pilots I know. Your constant yammering on about your perceived evils of motorgliders suggests that you feel threatened by them and in fact you have suggested that more directly in the past. Maybe you need some therapy? Take
some deep breaths, get in your towed glider, head out on a triangle over hazardous terrain and think about what fun you are having. The rest of us are having fun too except for this constant, interminable bitching from Florida. We like you best flying
over hazardous terrain looking for the next thermal to keep you away from the crocs, and away from the keyboard.

I do like your suggestion about AC in the cockpit though.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 11:32:08 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:09:33 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:17:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying "thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self
launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I
add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could self-

launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport, at
your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

Eric, pay close attention, I will try once more to explain why being a PURIST is the ultimate in soaring. Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring. Sure,

I could easily go out and buy one of those fancy tailwheel oriented motorgliders but us PURIST always enjoy the challenge of the last thermal getting us home instead of some propeller swinging queer looking contraption that pops up to make me look good,
so I can sit around the campfire and gloat about how much battery or fuel that I used. That is, during the process of ignoring the airplane by paying more attention to the GMHB that ends up in killing the MG pilot. Now, all you motorglider whack jobs
want to talk about is a steerable tail wheel, next you motorglider guys will be wanting AC in the cockpit of your motorglider's. OBTP

"Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring." Bob, Bob: you continue to conflate YOUR values with everyone else's values. Your sentence does not describe AT

ALL why I go soaring. Or most pilots I know. Your constant yammering on about your perceived evils of motorgliders suggests that you feel threatened by them and in fact you have suggested that more directly in the past. Maybe you need some therapy? Take
some deep breaths, get in your towed glider, head out on a triangle over hazardous terrain and think about what fun you are having. The rest of us are having fun too except for this constant, interminable bitching from Florida. We like you best flying
over hazardous terrain looking for the next thermal to keep you away from the crocs, and away from the keyboard.

I do like your suggestion about AC in the cockpit though.

Fitch, you motorglider guys are mostly all alike, looking for the next gimmick to replace experience and ability. All you guys can talk about are things like batteries, fuel for your gliders, steerable tail wheels, battery chargers, the location of the
GMH button, and a bunch of other non important factors that influence soaring. I have never felt threatened by some worthless motorglider, I fly with several guys that have motorgliders and they will be the first to say that Old Bob, can hold his on, in
fact the sustainer guys prefer to have Old Bob at the controls of the Pawnee. At the end of the day you motorglider guys could never have as much fun as OBTP. Recently one of our members went up for a wave camp, while in flight he heard one of the motorglider guys come over the radio and announce that he was going to motor on up
to the altitude of the rest of the pack, now do you think that this guy was having as much fun as those guys that did it pride and character like a purist does?
I do enjoy flying out over the swamps, no guts, no glory! At the end of the day when I have accomplished my goal to fly my triangle, and I don't do those T-Bone triangles or what I call imaginary triangles I stick to the real deal.
Now about that AC, there is a better solution that will provide comfort for a few hours, can be removed and tucked away. Staying cool like a PURIST is easily done, I will clue you in one of these days, until then keep flying that motorglider, it might
just make you look good. I will be getting back in my Lowly 27 this weekend, it has been a while, and I do need the purist therapy of soaring over those alligator and python infested swamps, and I will be looking for that last thermal home, and calling
over the radio for those motorglider guys flying out of Seminole Lake. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 1:33:56 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 11:32:08 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:09:33 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:17:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would
need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying
"thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self
launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I
add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could

self-launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport,
at your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

Eric, pay close attention, I will try once more to explain why being a PURIST is the ultimate in soaring. Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring.

Sure, I could easily go out and buy one of those fancy tailwheel oriented motorgliders but us PURIST always enjoy the challenge of the last thermal getting us home instead of some propeller swinging queer looking contraption that pops up to make me look
good, so I can sit around the campfire and gloat about how much battery or fuel that I used. That is, during the process of ignoring the airplane by paying more attention to the GMHB that ends up in killing the MG pilot. Now, all you motorglider whack
jobs want to talk about is a steerable tail wheel, next you motorglider guys will be wanting AC in the cockpit of your motorglider's. OBTP

"Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring." Bob, Bob: you continue to conflate YOUR values with everyone else's values. Your sentence does not describe

AT ALL why I go soaring. Or most pilots I know. Your constant yammering on about your perceived evils of motorgliders suggests that you feel threatened by them and in fact you have suggested that more directly in the past. Maybe you need some therapy?
Take some deep breaths, get in your towed glider, head out on a triangle over hazardous terrain and think about what fun you are having. The rest of us are having fun too except for this constant, interminable bitching from Florida. We like you best
flying over hazardous terrain looking for the next thermal to keep you away from the crocs, and away from the keyboard.

I do like your suggestion about AC in the cockpit though.

Fitch, you motorglider guys are mostly all alike, looking for the next gimmick to replace experience and ability. All you guys can talk about are things like batteries, fuel for your gliders, steerable tail wheels, battery chargers, the location of the

GMH button, and a bunch of other non important factors that influence soaring. I have never felt threatened by some worthless motorglider, I fly with several guys that have motorgliders and they will be the first to say that Old Bob, can hold his on, in
fact the sustainer guys prefer to have Old Bob at the controls of the Pawnee.

At the end of the day you motorglider guys could never have as much fun as OBTP. Recently one of our members went up for a wave camp, while in flight he heard one of the motorglider guys come over the radio and announce that he was going to motor on up

to the altitude of the rest of the pack, now do you think that this guy was having as much fun as those guys that did it pride and character like a purist does?

I do enjoy flying out over the swamps, no guts, no glory! At the end of the day when I have accomplished my goal to fly my triangle, and I don't do those T-Bone triangles or what I call imaginary triangles I stick to the real deal.
Now about that AC, there is a better solution that will provide comfort for a few hours, can be removed and tucked away. Staying cool like a PURIST is easily done, I will clue you in one of these days, until then keep flying that motorglider, it might

just make you look good. I will be getting back in my Lowly 27 this weekend, it has been a while, and I do need the purist therapy of soaring over those alligator and python infested swamps, and I will be looking for that last thermal home, and calling
over the radio for those motorglider guys flying out of Seminole Lake. Old Bob, The Purist

Hey Boobie, you're NOT a "purist" as you describe yourself: you rely on a gas-guzzling towplane to get you aloft. A true purist bungie launches off of a hill, but today's gliders have too high of a stall speed for that. Motorgliders use FAR LESS fuel to
get airborne than you do, so we are FAR CLOSER to being "purists" than you are, or ever will be. If MG pilots talk about engines, fuel and maintenance, gravity glider pilots talk about WHERE and WHEN they can find a tow. The NUMBER ONE reason I hear from
new MG owners for buying a MG is that they can't find any tows or they have to drive hours to get them. Or if they is a towplane they can't find a tow PILOT. This is why most new gliders coming into the US are MGs. That said, I am SURE that gravity
glider pilots are grateful that you are providing tows at New Hibiscus, despite your curmudgeon attitude.

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On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:50:11 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 1:33:56 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 11:32:08 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:09:33 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:17:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would
need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying
"thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and
ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self
launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I
add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

I tried to change the subject line, since the original one had no relation to the discussions we are now having.

Actually, an assisted safari is more flexible than you describe, as you can land anywhere, even a farmer's field, put the glider in the trailer, and take it to a suitable launch site. Even better would be to have an FES glider, which you could

self-launch or ground launch as desired (the ground launch could be to only 200' or so - no need for a long runway). The FES would make it more likely you'd end up at a desirable location, and the FES batteries could removed and charged at the airport,
at your motel, from an inverter while driving the car, or a small 1kw-2kw camping generator.

Eric

Eric, pay close attention, I will try once more to explain why being a PURIST is the ultimate in soaring. Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring.

Sure, I could easily go out and buy one of those fancy tailwheel oriented motorgliders but us PURIST always enjoy the challenge of the last thermal getting us home instead of some propeller swinging queer looking contraption that pops up to make me look
good, so I can sit around the campfire and gloat about how much battery or fuel that I used. That is, during the process of ignoring the airplane by paying more attention to the GMHB that ends up in killing the MG pilot. Now, all you motorglider whack
jobs want to talk about is a steerable tail wheel, next you motorglider guys will be wanting AC in the cockpit of your motorglider's. OBTP

"Flying nice triangles through hazardous terrain and always relying on the next thermal is the most exciting part of cross country soaring." Bob, Bob: you continue to conflate YOUR values with everyone else's values. Your sentence does not describe

AT ALL why I go soaring. Or most pilots I know. Your constant yammering on about your perceived evils of motorgliders suggests that you feel threatened by them and in fact you have suggested that more directly in the past. Maybe you need some therapy?
Take some deep breaths, get in your towed glider, head out on a triangle over hazardous terrain and think about what fun you are having. The rest of us are having fun too except for this constant, interminable bitching from Florida. We like you best
flying over hazardous terrain looking for the next thermal to keep you away from the crocs, and away from the keyboard.

I do like your suggestion about AC in the cockpit though.

Fitch, you motorglider guys are mostly all alike, looking for the next gimmick to replace experience and ability. All you guys can talk about are things like batteries, fuel for your gliders, steerable tail wheels, battery chargers, the location of

the GMH button, and a bunch of other non important factors that influence soaring. I have never felt threatened by some worthless motorglider, I fly with several guys that have motorgliders and they will be the first to say that Old Bob, can hold his on,
in fact the sustainer guys prefer to have Old Bob at the controls of the Pawnee.

At the end of the day you motorglider guys could never have as much fun as OBTP. Recently one of our members went up for a wave camp, while in flight he heard one of the motorglider guys come over the radio and announce that he was going to motor on

up to the altitude of the rest of the pack, now do you think that this guy was having as much fun as those guys that did it pride and character like a purist does?

I do enjoy flying out over the swamps, no guts, no glory! At the end of the day when I have accomplished my goal to fly my triangle, and I don't do those T-Bone triangles or what I call imaginary triangles I stick to the real deal.
Now about that AC, there is a better solution that will provide comfort for a few hours, can be removed and tucked away. Staying cool like a PURIST is easily done, I will clue you in one of these days, until then keep flying that motorglider, it

might just make you look good. I will be getting back in my Lowly 27 this weekend, it has been a while, and I do need the purist therapy of soaring over those alligator and python infested swamps, and I will be looking for that last thermal home, and
calling over the radio for those motorglider guys flying out of Seminole Lake. Old Bob, The Purist

Hey Boobie, you're NOT a "purist" as you describe yourself: you rely on a gas-guzzling towplane to get you aloft. A true purist bungie launches off of a hill, but today's gliders have too high of a stall speed for that. Motorgliders use FAR LESS fuel

to get airborne than you do, so we are FAR CLOSER to being "purists" than you are, or ever will be. If MG pilots talk about engines, fuel and maintenance, gravity glider pilots talk about WHERE and WHEN they can find a tow. The NUMBER ONE reason I hear
from new MG owners for buying a MG is that they can't find any tows or they have to drive hours to get them. Or if they is a towplane they can't find a tow PILOT. This is why most new gliders coming into the US are MGs. That said, I am SURE that gravity
glider pilots are grateful that you are providing tows at New Hibiscus, despite your curmudgeon attitude.

Terrible Tommy, known as Mr. Ultra Crepidarian, I wish that you had been at x52 yesterday when a motorglider pilot came back from the dark side to enjoy the true essence of soaring and hopped in our new club ship, which is a pure glider and asked Old Bob,
to give him a tow. I had Eileen give him a pre flight check in the new club ASW24 B, and he flew locally on two flights, one to experience the landing and another to stay aloft for a nice flight even with bad conditions here on the Treasure Coast. Even
after his flight's I received a phone call from the individual telling me how much fun he had in the pure glider. Not only did he once again get back to pure gliding but he did not smell like gasoline and 50/1 motor oil, did not have a puddle of dripping
burned oil dropping on the hangar floor for some person to step in and slip and fall, we call that the Motorglider Stumble!
I guess it must be that time of the year when you should be chopping firewood instead of flying your motorglider, us down here in Florida are now beginning to enjoy good soaring weather and beautiful warm days. Take care of yourself, I would hate for
anything bad to happen to such a good friend. Old Bob, The Purist

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