On Fri Nov 8 13:54:21 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:20 PM, cyclintom wrote:
No company could survive you and a boss that spots you not working and does say anything about it.
Who ever said my boss caught me not working?
You did asshole - you said that you were watching baseball and your boss came around and asked what the score was - not that he asked why you weren't working. I never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full attention to your job.
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:20 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Thu Sep 26 10:05:45 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 9/25/2024 8:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 21:51:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/16/2024 5:28 PM, cyclintom wrote:
100 to 1 I'm a better machinist than you ever were.
Wow! Is there _anything_ that Tom's not an expert in? ;-)
When I went to High school they had shop classes that were better than >>>>> most trade schools these days. Now they don't even HAVE shop classes in >>>>> high schools and so people like you never learned anthing but English so >>>>> that you can cry about misspellings and grammar.
So, yes, I know more than you about practically anything but obtuse facts >>>>> about plant engineering. Since you've never done anything you wouldn't >>>>> know about that.
Yup, tommy knows, for example, that you can pop a dent out of your
toptube by riding the bike
--
Add xx to reply
Because you don't understand the mechanics of it means that it doesn't exist.
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by
riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you think otherwise, please do explain the mechanics of it. Give us
all the details.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress. How can you call yourself a mechanical engineer and not know that? Flunky not knowing that is fine since he doesn't know shit. I reported thatI had a dent in my top tube and that it disappeared after heavy stress. you and Flunky called me a liar despite the fact that you didn't see it and now show you don't even know the mechsnics behind it. How many years did you train to know nothing?
I must say that I don't understand you people at all. Why would Andrew argue that Tom Ritchey built Brandt's frame when a man who was working there said that it was Peter Price? Tom had to learn the art from someone. And he was building down hillframes at that time.
Flunky is telling us he's a racer and it turns out he's over 65. Exacttly what does he gain from saying that or telling us he rode 2, 200 mile days? Who the hell does he think he's impressi9ng by saying that yhe didn't look down at down tube frictionshifters in races when even pros do?
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties of tempered steel and commenting on it?
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by
riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties of tempered steel and commenting on it?
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and working as an
exempt employee, professional, manager, executive, or consultant.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:15 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 13:54:21 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:20 PM, cyclintom wrote:
No company could survive you and a boss that spots you not working and >>>> does say anything about it.
Who ever said my boss caught me not working?
You did asshole - you said that you were watching baseball and your boss
came around and asked what the score was - not that he asked why you
weren't working. I never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention to your job.
Having the boss monitor you with a stopwatch is characteristic of a
job where you are paid by the millisecond. That sometimes works with
hourly employees. However, it doesn't apply to salaried professional
or exempt employees who are more commonly paid by the job and not by
the millisecond:
<https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/exempt-employee.asp>
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and working as an
exempt employee, professional, manager, executive, or consultant.
I also find it odd the you wrote "a boss" instead of "my boss" or "my manager". Hourly employees might have one of more managers. Salaried professionals usually have a single manager, even if you worked for a committee.
At one company, the chief engineer would walk around the lab and
remark "am I paying you for this" if he saw anyone doing something he considered not job related. Eventually, he was asked by the other
managers to stop doing that because it was highly disruptive and
usually resulted in work coming to a screeching halt.
1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 13:06:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by >>>> riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel (1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring steel. If
they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the proverbial
wet noodle.
Errr... 1095 is not "spring steel". At least not in the metal working
field. It is simply a high carbon steel and one common use is knife
blades and other cutting devices :-)
On 22 Feb 2025 22:27:53 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:15 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>Even paid hourly if one is competent and job is complex might well be down >> times waiting for something or someone to start/finish and so would have
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 13:54:21 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:20 PM, cyclintom wrote:
No company could survive you and a boss that spots you not working and >>>>>> does say anything about it.
Who ever said my boss caught me not working?
You did asshole - you said that you were watching baseball and your boss >>>> came around and asked what the score was - not that he asked why you
weren't working. I never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full >>>> attention to your job.
Having the boss monitor you with a stopwatch is characteristic of a
job where you are paid by the millisecond. That sometimes works with
hourly employees. However, it doesn't apply to salaried professional
or exempt employees who are more commonly paid by the job and not by
the millisecond:
<https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/exempt-employee.asp>
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and working as an
exempt employee, professional, manager, executive, or consultant.
I also find it odd the you wrote "a boss" instead of "my boss" or "my
manager". Hourly employees might have one of more managers. Salaried
professionals usually have a single manager, even if you worked for a
committee.
At one company, the chief engineer would walk around the lab and
remark "am I paying you for this" if he saw anyone doing something he
considered not job related. Eventually, he was asked by the other
managers to stop doing that because it was highly disruptive and
usually resulted in work coming to a screeching halt.
flexibility aka time to and opportunity to do personal things or simply
have tea break/chat or whatever.
Only be stopwatches etc on fairly menial repetitive jobs.
Roger Merriman
Way back when, I was running a Machine Shop in the
Air Force, during one inspection they counted my workers to see
whether personnel was being used effectively. Disregarding the 2 or 3
out working on airplanes I had two working on various machines and one
guy sitting reading a book.
After the inspection the Maintenance Officer got onto me about shop management and I explained that the two guys running machines were
working on "home jobs", i.e. work for themselves, as we had only one outstanding work order, and the guy reading the book was reading the Machinerys Handbook
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinery%27s_Handbook)
to figure just how he was going to do that rather complex job.
On 2/22/2025 4:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintomSorry, I'm going to disagree with you about spring steel.
<cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a
bicycle frame tube by
riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the
tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel
(1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring
steel. If
they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the
proverbial
wet noodle.
So, what's the SAE/AISI number for such a spring steel
bicycle frame
and who is selling such bicycles?
<https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6151>
Since you claim that you fixed the dent on YOUR bicycle,
could I
trouble you for the maker and model number of this bicycle
so I can
determine steel alloy that was used? Some photos of the
dent, before
and after, would also be nice.
Note that I'm not talking about shape memory metal alloys:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy>
I'm also not talking about hydroforming, which doesn't
work at
removing dents in steel tubing without high pressure
hydraulic
assistance. It's commonly used for bending aluminum
frames. You
obviously don't have the necessary equipment in your
garage workshop
because you claimed that the dent popped out after simply
riding the
bicycle:
<https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/919494-ding-
removal.html>
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties
of tempered steel and commenting on it?
Frank, he's all yours now.
AFAIK there is _no_ steel that would spontaneously cure a
dent in a bicycle tube from riding stresses. If the steel is
dented, it's been stressed in that location beyond its yield
point. There's no practical way for that to spontaneously
reverse itself.
While Andrew knows much more than I about the applicable
shop techniques, I think you might be able to partially
remove a dent in a tube if, like a seat tube, you had access
to an open end. Perhaps forcing in a series of mandrels of
increasing diameter could gradually force the dent outward.
(Something similar is done to repair dents in the tubing of
brass instruments like trumpets.) But I doubt it would give
a perfect result, and I think cosmetic repair (maybe Bondo?)
would be needed to get it really pretty.
What Tom is describing is his usual mix of lying and fantasy
and ignorance.
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 07:26:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 13:06:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by >>>>> riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel (1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring steel. If
they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the proverbial
wet noodle.
Errr... 1095 is not "spring steel". At least not in the metal working
field. It is simply a high carbon steel and one common use is knife
blades and other cutting devices :-)
True, but I beg to differ slightly. Wikipedia lists 1095 as "Blue, or polished bright spring steel". Same with McMaster-Carr catalog: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_steel> <https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/116/3630>
During the 1960's, I was working in my father's lingerie factory after school. We couldn't afford a resident toolmaker to build the sewing
machine attachments. So, I was volunteered to do the work. My father
took home a few tools and some stock including a box of assorted coils
of spring steel. When he died in 1995(?), I inherited the tools and
metal stock which included some 1095 coils and scrap.
However, it seems that it's also suitable for knives. I know a little
about knife making and sharpening. I made one knife from a kit: <https://www.knifekits.com>
I do fairly well (for a beginner) at sharpening. 1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention. It's most suitable for survival knives. 1095 has no corrosion resistance and
therefore poor edge retention in corrosive environments: <https://www.bladehq.com/blog/knife-steel-guide#1095>
For bicycle frame use, it could probably survive a crash, but will
corrode away in the first rain. If the tubing were thin enough, it
might be springy enough for self healing dents. However, the same springiness will also provide a springy ride.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:10:44 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention.
Oops. I wrote that backwards. It should be:
"1095 is not considered a good steel for knifemaking because of it's
poor edge retention."
Maybe good for kitchen knives, most of which do not need a very sharp
edge.
https://www.battlebladesinc.com/what-is-it-1095 https://www.sdknives.co.za/product/1095-high-carbon-steel-35mm/?srsltid=AfmBOooRPluStSMjkyguHokJvnEMdU4-XpAeuUHS8AwGU5Qo34-Vz5BJ
https://www.tomtek.eu/product/blade-steel-1-1274-aisi-1095/ https://www.amazon.com/Forging-Annealed-Supplies-Hobbyist-Professional/dp/B0CS2F4QVP
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=95943 http://www.htsteelmill.com/1095-carbon-steel.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIieej-__YiwMV_oRLBR2VWCB4EAAYASAAEgL1L_D_BwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVH3xQCXdZQ
And that's only the first page :-)
You might want to watch :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkZgWWJ8yA
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:05:50 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 2/22/2025 10:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 07:26:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 13:06:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by >>>>>>> riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel (1095, 1060, >>>>> 1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring steel. If >>>>> they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the proverbial >>>>> wet noodle.
Errr... 1095 is not "spring steel". At least not in the metal working
field. It is simply a high carbon steel and one common use is knife
blades and other cutting devices :-)
True, but I beg to differ slightly. Wikipedia lists 1095 as "Blue, or
polished bright spring steel". Same with McMaster-Carr catalog:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_steel>
<https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/116/3630>
During the 1960's, I was working in my father's lingerie factory after
school. We couldn't afford a resident toolmaker to build the sewing
machine attachments. So, I was volunteered to do the work. My father
took home a few tools and some stock including a box of assorted coils
of spring steel. When he died in 1995(?), I inherited the tools and
metal stock which included some 1095 coils and scrap.
However, it seems that it's also suitable for knives. I know a little
about knife making and sharpening. I made one knife from a kit:
<https://www.knifekits.com>
I do fairly well (for a beginner) at sharpening. 1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention. It's most
suitable for survival knives. 1095 has no corrosion resistance and
therefore poor edge retention in corrosive environments:
<https://www.bladehq.com/blog/knife-steel-guide#1095>
For bicycle frame use, it could probably survive a crash, but will
corrode away in the first rain. If the tubing were thin enough, it
might be springy enough for self healing dents. However, the same
springiness will also provide a springy ride.
If it doesn't dent or crease or crack, the forces were
within that steel piece's elastic limits. Once that limit
is exceeded, to the point of a measurable dent, there has
been structural deformation (crystal slip).
Those limits may be of different values for different steels
of the same shape/dimensions but the principle is universal.
in short, 'spring steel' is a red herring here.
You can heat treat 1095 to a hardness that it won't bend at all :-)
(so much for "spring steel")
On 2/22/2025 11:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
If the tubing were thin enough, it
might be springy enough for self healing dents. However,
the same
springiness will also provide a springy ride.
Nope. If the dent is visible when the impact is over, it's
not going to self heal.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:10:44 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>wrote:
1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention.
Oops. I wrote that backwards. It should be:
"1095 is not considered a good steel for knifemaking because of it's
poor edge retention."
Maybe good for kitchen knives, most of which do not need a very sharp
edge.
https://www.battlebladesinc.com/what-is-it-1095 >https://www.sdknives.co.za/product/1095-high-carbon-steel-35mm/?srsltid=AfmBOooRPluStSMjkyguHokJvnEMdU4-XpAeuUHS8AwGU5Qo34-Vz5BJ
https://www.tomtek.eu/product/blade-steel-1-1274-aisi-1095/ >https://www.amazon.com/Forging-Annealed-Supplies-Hobbyist-Professional/dp/B0CS2F4QVP
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=95943 >http://www.htsteelmill.com/1095-carbon-steel.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIieej-__YiwMV_oRLBR2VWCB4EAAYASAAEgL1L_D_BwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVH3xQCXdZQ
And that's only the first page :-)
You might want to watch :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkZgWWJ8yA
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 12:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:10:44 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention.
Oops. I wrote that backwards. It should be:
"1095 is not considered a good steel for knifemaking because of it's
poor edge retention."
Maybe good for kitchen knives, most of which do not need a very sharp
edge.
https://www.battlebladesinc.com/what-is-it-1095
https://www.sdknives.co.za/product/1095-high-carbon-steel-35mm/?srsltid=AfmBOooRPluStSMjkyguHokJvnEMdU4-XpAeuUHS8AwGU5Qo34-Vz5BJ
https://www.tomtek.eu/product/blade-steel-1-1274-aisi-1095/
https://www.amazon.com/Forging-Annealed-Supplies-Hobbyist-Professional/dp/B0CS2F4QVP
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=95943
http://www.htsteelmill.com/1095-carbon-steel.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIieej-__YiwMV_oRLBR2VWCB4EAAYASAAEgL1L_D_BwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVH3xQCXdZQ
And that's only the first page :-)
You might want to watch :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkZgWWJ8yA
Thanks. Very interesting. I really should give up while I'm still
sane. I yield to your superior expertise and experience in knife
making and steel metalurgy. In case it's not obvious, I'm a total
beginner with knife make and have limited experience in knife
metalurgy.
I watched both videos and learned a few things. I have a few "Old
Hickory" kitchen knives. <https://ontarioknife.com/collections/old-hickory%C2%AE-1>
I didn't realize that they were made from 1095. The first video
mentions this:
<https://youtu.be/AVH3xQCXdZQ?t=138>
Much as I like the knives, I need to lightly resharpen them almost
every time I use them. That's what I mean't by "poor edge retention".
Years ago, I did some tinkering with an Old Hickory paring knife. I sharpened it with whetstones to 6000(?) grit and then stropped it. I
put it under a microscope. The edge was clean and straight. With the
blade in a wood vise, I bent the blade back and forth about 10 times.
The microscope now showed some minor edge damage in the bend area. I
think that's why it needed regular resharpening.
As for the original topic, I think it's safe to say that we have a
consensus that the alleged dent in Tom's bicycle frame did not
magically "pop out" and repair itself. Once the steel tubing is
stretched beyond the elastic limit, it's considered permanently
deformed and is not going to return to it's original shape. I also
believe that it's unlikely that any bicycle frame maker is delivering
bicycle frames that are springy enough to recover from permanent
deformation.
Tom: What was the bicycle manufacturer and model of your miraculous self-healing bicycle so that I can research the material properties?
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:15 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 13:54:21 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:20 PM, cyclintom wrote:
No company could survive you and a boss that spots you not working and does say anything about it.
Who ever said my boss caught me not working?
You did asshole - you said that you were watching baseball and your boss came around and asked what the score was - not that he asked why you weren't working.
I never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full attention to your job.
On 2/22/2025 1:58 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:20 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Thu Sep 26 10:05:45 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 9/25/2024 8:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 21:51:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/16/2024 5:28 PM, cyclintom wrote:
   100 to 1 I'm a better machinist than you ever were.
Wow! Is there _anything_ that Tom's not an expert in? ;-)
When I went to High school they had shop classes that were better
than
most trade schools these days. Now they don't even HAVE shop
classes in
high schools and so people like you never learned anthing but
English so
that you can cry about misspellings and grammar.
So, yes, I know more than you about practically anything but
obtuse facts
about plant engineering. Since you've never done anything you
wouldn't
know about that.
Yup, tommy knows, for example, that you can pop a dent out of your
toptube by riding the bike
--
Add xx to reply
Because you don't understand the mechanics of it means that it
doesn't exist.
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by
riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you think otherwise, please do explain the mechanics of it. Give us
all the details.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can
revert to its natural shape under stress. How can you call yourself a
mechanical engineer and not know that? Flunky not knowing that is fine
since he doesn't know shit. I reported that I had a dent in my top
tube and that it disappeared after heavy stress. you and Flunky called
me a liar despite the fact that you didn't see it and now show you
don't even know the mechsnics behind it. How many years did you train
to know nothing?
I must say that I don't understand you people at all. Why would Andrew
argue that Tom Ritchey built Brandt's frame when a man who was working
there said that it was Peter Price? Tom had to learn the art from
someone. And he was building down hill frames at that time.
Flunky is telling us he's a racer and it turns out he's over 65.
Exacttly what does he gain from saying that or telling us he rode 2,
200 mile days?
Who the hell does he think he's impressi9ng by saying
that yhe didn't look down at down tube friction shifters in races
when
even pros do?
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties of tempered
steel and commenting on it?
Your first sentence is metaphysics or fantasy but not physics. It is absolutely not true in the real world.
Secondly, as I suggested the last time you dissed Mr Ritchey, ring him
up and ask him. He's not far from you and very much alive.
On 2/22/2025 1:58 PM, cyclintom wrote:
Who the hell does he think he's impressi9ng by saying
that yhe didn't look down at down tube friction shifters in races
I'm not impressing anyone, because no one else had to look down either.
If one needed to look down to shift, they shouldn't be racing.
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 11:44:02 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 2/22/2025 1:58 PM, cyclintom wrote:
Who the hell does he think he's impressi9ng by saying
that yhe didn't look down at down tube friction shifters in races
I'm not impressing anyone, because no one else had to look down either.
If one needed to look down to shift, they shouldn't be racing.
My touring bicycle has downtube shifters. When I was riding it, I
would look down before shifting at the start of the ride. After I
became accustomed to its position, I didn't need to look down. If I
adjusted the saddle or handlebars position, I had to start over. I
assume that racers and pros do not tinker with these adjustments prior
to a race and would therefore have the time needed to properly find
the down tube shifters.
In the my computer biz and piano pounding hobby, I've noticed that a
fair number of people look at their hands instead of the computer
screen or sheet music. I had both of these problems when I was first learning to type and play. I've partly fix the keyboard problem and
can now type on the letter keys without looking at the keyboard.
However, the rows of numbers, function keys and number pad are a lost
cause. I have to look at those. The problem is that there are far
too many different keyboard layouts. Recognizing the problem, I
purchase about 10 Dell SK-81xx mechanical keyboards for use at home
and in my former office. <https://www.google.com/search?q=dell%20sk-81%3F%3F&udm=2>
I can now almost type with my eyes closed.
With the piano, the problem was that I play almost totally by ear. No
sheet music. Therefore, I had no incentive to learn to play by touch
or with my eyes closed. I can play with my eyes closed on my Korg
DSS-1 synthesizer, but not on any other piano, organ, etc: <https://www.google.com/search?q=korg%20dss-1&udm=2>
What's happening is that people have varying degrees of hand-eye coordination. Some people can type or play piano with their eye's
closed. Here's an example of one pianist who can play without looking
at his hands:
<https://www.youtube.com/@Lord_Vinheteiro/videos>
For cycling, the trick is to reduce the number of variables to make
shifting easier for the rider. That means don't move the saddle or
shifters, large paddle handles, and lots of practice.
From time to time, I had enough numerical data to process that I taught
myself to use the number pad without looking. It's not hard. (But its
weird that telephone key pads are not the same layout as keyboard keypads.)
On Sun Feb 23 10:16:26 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 2/23/2025 9:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/22/2025 11:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
If the tubing were thin enough, it
might be springy enough for self healing dents. However,
the same
springiness will also provide a springy ride.
Nope. If the dent is visible when the impact is over, it's
not going to self heal.
+1
It's either within the elastic limits or it is permanent
deformation. Can't be both.
I'm getting pretty tired of hearing how something I actually experienced isn't possible.
On Sun Feb 23 13:05:12 2025 John B. wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 07:26:05 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 13:06:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by >>>>>>> riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel (1095, 1060, >>>>> 1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring steel. If >>>>> they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the proverbial >>>>> wet noodle.
Errr... 1095 is not "spring steel". At least not in the metal working
field. It is simply a high carbon steel and one common use is knife
blades and other cutting devices :-)
True, but I beg to differ slightly. Wikipedia lists 1095 as "Blue, or
polished bright spring steel". Same with McMaster-Carr catalog:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_steel>
<https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/116/3630>
During the 1960's, I was working in my father's lingerie factory after
school. We couldn't afford a resident toolmaker to build the sewing
machine attachments. So, I was volunteered to do the work. My father
took home a few tools and some stock including a box of assorted coils
of spring steel. When he died in 1995(?), I inherited the tools and
metal stock which included some 1095 coils and scrap.
However, it seems that it's also suitable for knives. I know a little
about knife making and sharpening. I made one knife from a kit:
<https://www.knifekits.com>
I do fairly well (for a beginner) at sharpening. 1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention. It's most
suitable for survival knives. 1095 has no corrosion resistance and
therefore poor edge retention in corrosive environments:
<https://www.bladehq.com/blog/knife-steel-guide#1095>
You can make a knife out of a rock if that is all you have so lets not
get carried away :-)
Like most things the material used to make a knife is largely
dependent on what you intend to use it for.
And before we get further, I spent quite a bit of my life working with
metals, from forging and making knives from old files to managing a
machine shop where far more modern steels are used in jet engines and
that sort of thing
And yes there are steels to make different knives, and over the years
I've made a lot of knives ranging from my wives kitchen knives to a
"special" hunting knife for my Father's Christmas present, and not to
mention all the shop cutting tools over the years.
To my mind a "good knife" is a knife that works well for the use that
you intend to use it for. My wife's (she's gone now) are still in the
kitchen and still work as well as they did when I made then nearly 30
years ago, she complained of a store bought knife and I, foolishly,
made her a good carbon-steel knife and went from being "Master of the
House" to "kitchen knife maker" over night :-(
For bicycle frame use, it could probably survive a crash, but will
corrode away in the first rain. If the tubing were thin enough, it
might be springy enough for self healing dents. However, the same
springiness will also provide a springy ride.
And, no bicycle frames are not made from knife quality carbon steel
although it could be that when I as a lad bike frames might well have
been made of low carbon tubing as from memory they did bend a lot in a
crash.
Didn't you just learn that liebermann believes that "spring steel" tubing isn't proper material for a bicycle tube which requires the tubular shape for the proper strength and not material?
And he no doubt will tell you that a file is spring steel.
I am having a hard time dealing with people who have never accomplished a thing in their lives telling people with actual experience that they don't know what they're talking about.
On Sun Feb 23 10:16:26 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 2/23/2025 9:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/22/2025 11:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
If the tubing were thin enough, it
might be springy enough for self healing dents.
the same
springiness will also provide a springy ride.
Nope. If the dent is visible when the impact is over, it's
not going to self heal.
+1
It's either within the elastic limits or it is permanent
deformation. Can't be both.
I'm getting pretty tired of hearing how something I actually experienced isn't possible.
On Sat Feb 22 12:36:11 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Having the boss monitor you with a stopwatch is characteristic of a
job where you are paid by the millisecond. That sometimes works with
hourly employees. However, it doesn't apply to salaried professional
or exempt employees who are more commonly paid by the job and not by
the millisecond:
<https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/exempt-employee.asp>
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and working as an
exempt employee, professional, manager, executive, or consultant.
I also find it odd the you wrote "a boss" instead of "my boss" or "my
manager". Hourly employees might have one of more managers. Salaried
professionals usually have a single manager, even if you worked for a
committee.
At one company, the chief engineer would walk around the lab and
remark "am I paying you for this" if he saw anyone doing something he
considered not job related. Eventually, he was asked by the other
managers to stop doing that because it was highly disruptive and
usually resulted in work coming to a screeching halt.
Jeff, what do you know about real jobs?
On Sat Feb 22 13:13:40 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 12:36:11 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and working as an
exempt employee, professional, manager, executive, or consultant.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The above sentence should be:
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and were probably
NOT working as an exempt employee, professional, manager, executive,
or consultant.
I will ask you again: since the only job you ever worked, the supervisor would not even give you a recommendation, what in hell gives you the idea that you know ANYTHING about working?
On 2/22/2025 4:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by >>>> riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel (1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring steel. If
they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the proverbial
wet noodle.
So, what's the SAE/AISI number for such a spring steel bicycle frame
and who is selling such bicycles?
<https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6151>
Since you claim that you fixed the dent on YOUR bicycle, could I
trouble you for the maker and model number of this bicycle so I can
determine steel alloy that was used? Some photos of the dent, before
and after, would also be nice.
Note that I'm not talking about shape memory metal alloys:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy>
I'm also not talking about hydroforming, which doesn't work at
removing dents in steel tubing without high pressure hydraulic
assistance. It's commonly used for bending aluminum frames. You
obviously don't have the necessary equipment in your garage workshop
because you claimed that the dent popped out after simply riding the
bicycle:
<https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/919494-ding-removal.html>
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties of tempered steel and commenting on it?
Frank, he's all yours now.
Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you about spring steel. AFAIK there is
_no_ steel that would spontaneously cure a dent in a bicycle tube from
riding stresses. If the steel is dented, it's been stressed in that
location beyond its yield point. There's no practical way for that to >spontaneously reverse itself.
While Andrew knows much more than I about the applicable shop
techniques, I think you might be able to partially remove a dent in a
tube if, like a seat tube, you had access to an open end. Perhaps
forcing in a series of mandrels of increasing diameter could gradually
force the dent outward. (Something similar is done to repair dents in
the tubing of brass instruments like trumpets.) But I doubt it would
give a perfect result, and I think cosmetic repair (maybe Bondo?) would
be needed to get it really pretty.
What Tom is describing is his usual mix of lying and fantasy and ignorance.
On 3/3/2025 3:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
If it worked so well for you, why not repeat the
experiment? Just hammer a dent in one of your numerous bicycles and
do whatever magic it takes to remove the dent by just riding around.
Don't forget to post a video.
That's good advice! If Tom did succeed in removing the dent that way and >documented it indisputably, I think he'd become famous in metallurgical >literature.
On 3/3/2025 6:30 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
1095 is a steel alloy that can be used for making steel
springs. It
can also be used for making knife blades, where the a
springy steel
makes the blade more durable. The major difference is the
steel
spring is fairly thin, while the knife blade is much
thicker. Same
spring effect, but very different products.
OK, to talk some metallurgy: I don't know that 1095 should
be described as a "springy" steel, because I don't know what
you mean by "springy." It's not a typical metallurgical term.
Maybe you mean it has a higher yield stress? That would mean
it could deflect more before a permanent deflection. And
springs are called on to purposely deflect.
1095 is popular for knife making, but I think it's more
because it's not expensive, while still being easy to heat
treat in a way to reach a good compromise between hardness
(for edge retention) and ductility (for toughness).
In general, the higher the hardness of a steel, the higher
the yield stress and the lower its toughness. That balance
of properties can be well controlled by heat treating.
Alloying elements can improve that balance.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:21:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 2/22/2025 4:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by >>>>> riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel (1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring steel. If
they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the proverbial
wet noodle.
So, what's the SAE/AISI number for such a spring steel bicycle frame
and who is selling such bicycles?
<https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6151>
Since you claim that you fixed the dent on YOUR bicycle, could I
trouble you for the maker and model number of this bicycle so I can
determine steel alloy that was used? Some photos of the dent, before
and after, would also be nice.
Note that I'm not talking about shape memory metal alloys:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy>
I'm also not talking about hydroforming, which doesn't work at
removing dents in steel tubing without high pressure hydraulic
assistance. It's commonly used for bending aluminum frames. You
obviously don't have the necessary equipment in your garage workshop
because you claimed that the dent popped out after simply riding the
bicycle:
<https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/919494-ding-removal.html>
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties of tempered steel and commenting on it?
Frank, he's all yours now.
Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you about spring steel. AFAIK there is
_no_ steel that would spontaneously cure a dent in a bicycle tube from
riding stresses. If the steel is dented, it's been stressed in that
location beyond its yield point. There's no practical way for that to
spontaneously reverse itself.
That's correct. However, you're reading too much into my mention of
1095 steel being "spring steel". <https://www.mcmaster.com/mvD/pdf/116/3630.pdf>
1095 is a steel alloy that can be used for making steel springs. It
can also be used for making knife blades, where the a springy steel
makes the blade more durable. The major difference is the steel
spring is fairly thin, while the knife blade is much thicker. Same
spring effect, but very different products.
While Andrew knows much more than I about the applicable shop
techniques, I think you might be able to partially remove a dent in a
tube if, like a seat tube, you had access to an open end. Perhaps
forcing in a series of mandrels of increasing diameter could gradually
force the dent outward. (Something similar is done to repair dents in
the tubing of brass instruments like trumpets.) But I doubt it would
give a perfect result, and I think cosmetic repair (maybe Bondo?) would
be needed to get it really pretty.
Some kind of flexible automobile body putty (usually an epoxy) would
work. I had the left seat stay, on my Miyata 610 touring bicycle,
repaired professionally. I didn't paint it. I'm sure if I had, there
would be no evidence of the repair remaining. <https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Miyata-610.JPG>
It's the rust colored section of the left seat stay. Unfortunately, I
didn't see the work and cannot describe how it was done.
What Tom is describing is his usual mix of lying and fantasy and ignorance.
Yep. After so many years of cultivating Tom's fertile imagination,
all that has grown were poisonous flowers and ugly weeds.
On Mon, 03 Mar 2025 16:27:02 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Sat Feb 22 13:13:40 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 12:36:11 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and working as an
exempt employee, professional, manager, executive, or consultant.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The above sentence should be:
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and were probably
NOT working as an exempt employee, professional, manager, executive,
or consultant.
I will ask you again: since the only job you ever worked, the supervisor would not even give you a recommendation, what in hell gives you the idea that you know ANYTHING about working?
That's easy. A sure sign that I know something about working is that employers, clients and companies were willing to pay me do things for
them. The following are some things that gave me the idea that I know something about working for a living:
1. One house without a mortgage.
2. Social Security payments based on my past income.
3. One 24 year old automobile without a mortgage.
4. A continuing demand for my services after my retirement.
5. A bank account with sufficient cash to hopefully will survive the
antics of our fearless leader.
6. Whatever else I forgot.
I will ask you again: What maker and model bicycle were you riding
when your amazing frame tubing magically repaired a dent by simply
riding the bicycle? I want to read about this magic tubing.
On 3/3/2025 5:30 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:21:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 2/22/2025 4:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame
tube by
riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can
revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel (1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring steel. If >>>> they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the proverbial
wet noodle.
So, what's the SAE/AISI number for such a spring steel bicycle frame
and who is selling such bicycles?
<https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6151>
Since you claim that you fixed the dent on YOUR bicycle, could I
trouble you for the maker and model number of this bicycle so I can
determine steel alloy that was used? Some photos of the dent, before >>>> and after, would also be nice.
Note that I'm not talking about shape memory metal alloys:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy>
I'm also not talking about hydroforming, which doesn't work at
removing dents in steel tubing without high pressure hydraulic
assistance. It's commonly used for bending aluminum frames. You
obviously don't have the necessary equipment in your garage workshop
because you claimed that the dent popped out after simply riding the
bicycle:
<https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/919494-ding-removal.html> >>>>
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties of
tempered steel and commenting on it?
Frank, he's all yours now.
Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you about spring steel. AFAIK there is >>> _no_ steel that would spontaneously cure a dent in a bicycle tube from
riding stresses. If the steel is dented, it's been stressed in that
location beyond its yield point. There's no practical way for that to
spontaneously reverse itself.
That's correct. However, you're reading too much into my mention of
1095 steel being "spring steel".
<https://www.mcmaster.com/mvD/pdf/116/3630.pdf>
1095 is a steel alloy that can be used for making steel springs. It
can also be used for making knife blades, where the a springy steel
makes the blade more durable. The major difference is the steel
spring is fairly thin, while the knife blade is much thicker. Same
spring effect, but very different products.
While Andrew knows much more than I about the applicable shop
techniques, I think you might be able to partially remove a dent in a
tube if, like a seat tube, you had access to an open end. Perhaps
forcing in a series of mandrels of increasing diameter could gradually
force the dent outward. (Something similar is done to repair dents in
the tubing of brass instruments like trumpets.) But I doubt it would
give a perfect result, and I think cosmetic repair (maybe Bondo?) would
be needed to get it really pretty.
Some kind of flexible automobile body putty (usually an epoxy) would
work. I had the left seat stay, on my Miyata 610 touring bicycle,
repaired professionally. I didn't paint it. I'm sure if I had, there
would be no evidence of the repair remaining.
<https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Miyata-610.JPG>
It's the rust colored section of the left seat stay. Unfortunately, I
didn't see the work and cannot describe how it was done.
What Tom is describing is his usual mix of lying and fantasy and
ignorance.
Yep. After so many years of cultivating Tom's fertile imagination,
all that has grown were poisonous flowers and ugly weeds.
For a typical dent, this Waterford for example: http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12a.jpg
the tube is rolled to reform the greater part of the deformation:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12b.jpg
then the remaining low spots are filled with polyester bondo or with
metal (brass, silver, lead. I use lead):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12c.jpg
and finished:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12e.jpg
On 3/4/2025 12:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For a typical dent, this Waterford for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12a.jpg
the tube is rolled to reform the greater part of the
deformation:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12b.jpg
then the remaining low spots are filled with polyester
bondo or with metal (brass, silver, lead. I use lead):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12c.jpg
and finished:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12e.jpg
Could you explain what's meant by "the tube is rolled"? As I
said earlier, I'd thought the first step would be pushing a
mandrel through (if the dent was in the seatpost) to
partially push out the dent. Of course, that wouldn't work
except on a seat tube, and I suppose would still require
filling. Are you skipping that step entirely?
BTW, my antique BMW has a slight dent in the top of the gas
tank, apparently from something falling onto it. I've heard
of "paintless dent repair" for car bodies and wondered about
it, but never looked deeply into it. I gather that some
skilled body workers can do pretty well at pushing dents
back out from the underside.
On 3/4/2025 12:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/3/2025 5:30 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:21:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 2/22/2025 4:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintom
<cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a
bicycle frame tube by
riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel.
the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel
(1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from
spring steel. If
they were made from spring steel, they would ride like
the proverbial
wet noodle.
So, what's the SAE/AISI number for such a spring steel
bicycle frame
and who is selling such bicycles?
<https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6151>
Since you claim that you fixed the dent on YOUR
bicycle, could I
trouble you for the maker and model number of this
bicycle so I can
determine steel alloy that was used? Some photos of
the dent, before
and after, would also be nice.
Note that I'm not talking about shape memory metal alloys:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy>
I'm also not talking about hydroforming, which doesn't
work at
removing dents in steel tubing without high pressure
hydraulic
assistance. It's commonly used for bending aluminum
frames. You
obviously don't have the necessary equipment in your
garage workshop
because you claimed that the dent popped out after
simply riding the
bicycle:
<https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/919494-
ding-removal.html>
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the
properties of tempered steel and commenting on it?
Frank, he's all yours now.
Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you about spring
steel. AFAIK there is
_no_ steel that would spontaneously cure a dent in a
bicycle tube from
riding stresses. If the steel is dented, it's been
stressed in that
location beyond its yield point. There's no practical
way for that to
spontaneously reverse itself.
That's correct. However, you're reading too much into my
mention of
1095 steel being "spring steel".
<https://www.mcmaster.com/mvD/pdf/116/3630.pdf>
1095 is a steel alloy that can be used for making steel
springs. It
can also be used for making knife blades, where the a
springy steel
makes the blade more durable. The major difference is
the steel
spring is fairly thin, while the knife blade is much
thicker. Same
spring effect, but very different products.
While Andrew knows much more than I about the applicable
shop
techniques, I think you might be able to partially
remove a dent in a
tube if, like a seat tube, you had access to an open
end. Perhaps
forcing in a series of mandrels of increasing diameter
could gradually
force the dent outward. (Something similar is done to
repair dents in
the tubing of brass instruments like trumpets.) But I
doubt it would
give a perfect result, and I think cosmetic repair
(maybe Bondo?) would
be needed to get it really pretty.
Some kind of flexible automobile body putty (usually an
epoxy) would
work. I had the left seat stay, on my Miyata 610 touring
bicycle,
repaired professionally. I didn't paint it. I'm sure if
I had, there
would be no evidence of the repair remaining.
<https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/
Miyata-610.JPG>
It's the rust colored section of the left seat stay.
Unfortunately, I
didn't see the work and cannot describe how it was done.
What Tom is describing is his usual mix of lying and
fantasy and ignorance.
Yep. After so many years of cultivating Tom's fertile
imagination,
all that has grown were poisonous flowers and ugly weeds.
For a typical dent, this Waterford for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12a.jpg
the tube is rolled to reform the greater part of the
deformation:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12b.jpg
then the remaining low spots are filled with polyester
bondo or with metal (brass, silver, lead. I use lead):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12c.jpg
and finished:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12e.jpg
 Would you consider this type of repair on an aluminum frame?
On Sun Feb 23 12:26:43 2025 John B. wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:10:44 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention.
Oops. I wrote that backwards. It should be:
"1095 is not considered a good steel for knifemaking because of it's
poor edge retention."
Maybe good for kitchen knives, most of which do not need a very sharp
edge.
https://www.battlebladesinc.com/what-is-it-1095
https://www.sdknives.co.za/product/1095-high-carbon-steel-35mm/?srsltid=AfmBOooRPluStSMjkyguHokJvnEMdU4-XpAeuUHS8AwGU5Qo34-Vz5BJ
https://www.tomtek.eu/product/blade-steel-1-1274-aisi-1095/
https://www.amazon.com/Forging-Annealed-Supplies-Hobbyist-Professional/dp/B0CS2F4QVP
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=95943
http://www.htsteelmill.com/1095-carbon-steel.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIieej-__YiwMV_oRLBR2VWCB4EAAYASAAEgL1L_D_BwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVH3xQCXdZQ
And that's only the first page :-)
You might want to watch :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkZgWWJ8yA
It's like talking to a wall.
On 3/4/2025 4:28 PM, cyclintom wrote:
 I have a set of damascus steel knives that you dare notskin and yet they can be flexed.
touch to your
Of course! No solid is perfectly rigid. All metals deform or
"flex" when stress is applied. That has nothing much to do
with your claims of magic tubing healing itself.
On Sun Feb 23 08:52:41 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 2/22/2025 4:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/22/2025 4:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:58:29 GMT, cyclintomSorry, I'm going to disagree with you about spring steel.
<cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a
bicycle frame tube by
riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the
tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress.
Tom. The only steel that might do that is spring steel
(1095, 1060,
1075, 1080, etc). Bicycle frames are not made from spring
steel. If
they were made from spring steel, they would ride like the
proverbial
wet noodle.
So, what's the SAE/AISI number for such a spring steel
bicycle frame
and who is selling such bicycles?
<https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6151>
Since you claim that you fixed the dent on YOUR bicycle,
could I
trouble you for the maker and model number of this bicycle
so I can
determine steel alloy that was used? Some photos of the
dent, before
and after, would also be nice.
Note that I'm not talking about shape memory metal alloys:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy>
I'm also not talking about hydroforming, which doesn't
work at
removing dents in steel tubing without high pressure
hydraulic
assistance. It's commonly used for bending aluminum
frames. You
obviously don't have the necessary equipment in your
garage workshop
because you claimed that the dent popped out after simply
riding the
bicycle:
<https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/919494-ding-
removal.html>
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties
of tempered steel and commenting on it?
Frank, he's all yours now.
AFAIK there is _no_ steel that would spontaneously cure a
dent in a bicycle tube from riding stresses. If the steel is
dented, it's been stressed in that location beyond its yield
point. There's no practical way for that to spontaneously
reverse itself.
While Andrew knows much more than I about the applicable
shop techniques, I think you might be able to partially
remove a dent in a tube if, like a seat tube, you had access
to an open end. Perhaps forcing in a series of mandrels of
increasing diameter could gradually force the dent outward.
(Something similar is done to repair dents in the tubing of
brass instruments like trumpets.) But I doubt it would give
a perfect result, and I think cosmetic repair (maybe Bondo?)
would be needed to get it really pretty.
What Tom is describing is his usual mix of lying and fantasy
and ignorance.
Methods to form, or re form, steel are irrelevant here.
The principle is that once you're beyond the elastic limit,
the piece will have measurable deformation. That's a crystal
slip, i.e., the structure of the material has changed.
Regardless of human decisions after that (re form,
cosmetically cover such as lead fill or bondo, replace the
damaged piece, throw out the unit) the material has changed;
it's not going to spontaneously pop back to pre-strain shape.
Andrew, if you look at a framed house after it has sat there for awhile you will not see most of the hammer marks on the wood because there is a wide space betweed yield strength ad ellastic limit and in the cases of good framers, those limits are notexceeded. while the distance between those points is narrower with steel, they still exist. Don't be fooled into thinking that any deformation means the elastic limits have been exceeded or that if it doesn't rebound immediately yield strength has not
On 3/4/2025 3:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2025 11:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2025 12:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For a typical dent, this Waterford for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12a.jpg
the tube is rolled to reform the greater part of the
deformation:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12b.jpg
then the remaining low spots are filled with polyester
bondo or with metal (brass, silver, lead. I use lead):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12c.jpg
and finished:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12e.jpg
Could you explain what's meant by "the tube is rolled"?
As I said earlier, I'd thought the first step would be
pushing a mandrel through (if the dent was in the
seatpost) to partially push out the dent. Of course, that
wouldn't work except on a seat tube, and I suppose would
still require filling. Are you skipping that step entirely?
BTW, my antique BMW has a slight dent in the top of the
gas tank, apparently from something falling onto it. I've
heard of "paintless dent repair" for car bodies and
wondered about it, but never looked deeply into it. I
gather that some skilled body workers can do pretty well
at pushing dents back out from the underside.
Can't generally fit anything inside a bicycle frame tube
in any reasonable time. Taking a frame apart is more than
a magnitude of labor greater than the cost of a tube. Once
apart, you'd just replace it rather than repair.
Here's one set of steel blocks for rolling dents.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/den24a.jpg
So how exactly are the blocks used? Are the blocks tightened
in place and rotated around the tube?
I have various diameters. On oval tube of course there are
limited options. I generally don't take those jobs except
where the dent is minimal:
https://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/denw25a.jpg
It occurred to me after posting that forcing a mandrel
inside the tube might cause some of the metal around the
dent to bulge outward. I can see why you wouldn't want that
to happen.
On Tue Mar 4 23:26:28 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2025 3:54 PM, cyclintom wrote:
WHY would I take a picture of a dent on my bike.
To prove to us that you weren't imagining the entire episode.
And if I took a picture of the area that dent had been in after it disappeared what would it tell you?
That the dent was imaginary to begin with.
You should understand that _nobody_ here believes this "magic dent
disappearance" fairy tale. Not one person has pretended it's possible.
Frank, you continue to show why you were unsuccessful as an engineer and had to fall back to teaching communism to students.
On Tue Mar 4 16:30:44 2025 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/4/2025 4:28 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sun Feb 23 12:26:43 2025 John B. wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:10:44 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 20:04:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>> wrote:
1095 is considered a
good steel for knifemaking because of it's edge retention.
Oops. I wrote that backwards. It should be:
"1095 is not considered a good steel for knifemaking because of it's >>>>> poor edge retention."
Maybe good for kitchen knives, most of which do not need a very sharp >>>>> edge.
https://www.battlebladesinc.com/what-is-it-1095
https://www.sdknives.co.za/product/1095-high-carbon-steel-35mm/?srsltid=AfmBOooRPluStSMjkyguHokJvnEMdU4-XpAeuUHS8AwGU5Qo34-Vz5BJ
https://www.tomtek.eu/product/blade-steel-1-1274-aisi-1095/
https://www.amazon.com/Forging-Annealed-Supplies-Hobbyist-Professional/dp/B0CS2F4QVP
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=95943
http://www.htsteelmill.com/1095-carbon-steel.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIieej-__YiwMV_oRLBR2VWCB4EAAYASAAEgL1L_D_BwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVH3xQCXdZQ
And that's only the first page :-)
You might want to watch :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkZgWWJ8yA
It's like talking to a wall.
yup
In your case it's like talking to nobody at all. You're the only one on this newsgroup that czan make Liebermann loook like a genius.
On Tue Mar 4 12:03:42 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2025 12:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For a typical dent, this Waterford for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12a.jpg
the tube is rolled to reform the greater part of the deformation:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12b.jpg
then the remaining low spots are filled with polyester bondo or with
metal (brass, silver, lead. I use lead):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12c.jpg
and finished:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12e.jpg
Could you explain what's meant by "the tube is rolled"? As I said
earlier, I'd thought the first step would be pushing a mandrel through
(if the dent was in the seatpost) to partially push out the dent. Of
course, that wouldn't work except on a seat tube, and I suppose would
still require filling. Are you skipping that step entirely?
BTW, my antique BMW has a slight dent in the top of the gas tank,
apparently from something falling onto it. I've heard of "paintless dent
repair" for car bodies and wondered about it, but never looked deeply
into it. I gather that some skilled body workers can do pretty well at
pushing dents back out from the underside.
Have you got this now? Skilled body workers sometimes find a dent that they push on from the opposite side and the dent pops out. Wait a minute - you are all saying that is impossible.
On Sat Feb 22 14:56:54 2025 AMuzi wrote:that I had a dent in my top tube and that it disappeared after heavy stress. you and Flunky called me a liar despite the fact that you didn't see it and now show you don't even know the mechsnics behind it. How many years did you train to know nothing?
On 2/22/2025 1:58 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Fri Nov 8 14:03:46 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/8/2024 12:20 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Thu Sep 26 10:05:45 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 9/25/2024 8:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 21:51:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/16/2024 5:28 PM, cyclintom wrote:
100 to 1 I'm a better machinist than you ever were.
Wow! Is there _anything_ that Tom's not an expert in? ;-)
When I went to High school they had shop classes that were better than >>>>>>> most trade schools these days. Now they don't even HAVE shop classes in >>>>>>> high schools and so people like you never learned anthing but English so
that you can cry about misspellings and grammar.
So, yes, I know more than you about practically anything but obtuse facts
about plant engineering. Since you've never done anything you wouldn't >>>>>>> know about that.
Yup, tommy knows, for example, that you can pop a dent out of your >>>>>> toptube by riding the bike
--
Add xx to reply
Because you don't understand the mechanics of it means that it doesn't exist.
It doesn't exist, Tom. You can't pop a dent out a bicycle frame tube by >>>> riding the bike. Thinking you can is a sign of insanity.
If you think otherwise, please do explain the mechanics of it. Give us >>>> all the details.
If you have a slight dent in high performance steel. the tubing can revert to its natural shape under stress. How can you call yourself a mechanical engineer and not know that? Flunky not knowing that is fine since he doesn't know shit. I reported
frames at that time.
I must say that I don't understand you people at all. Why would Andrew argue that Tom Ritchey built Brandt's frame when a man who was working there said that it was Peter Price? Tom had to learn the art from someone. And he was building down hill
shifters in races when even pros do?
Flunky is telling us he's a racer and it turns out he's over 65. Exacttly what does he gain from saying that or telling us he rode 2, 200 mile days? Who the hell does he think he's impressi9ng by saying that yhe didn't look down at down tube friction
Where the hell do you get off not knowing the properties of tempered steel and commenting on it?
Your first sentence is metaphysics or fantasy but not
physics. It is absolutely not true in the real world.
Secondly, as I suggested the last time you dissed Mr
Ritchey, ring him up and ask him. He's not far from you and
very much alive.
I know Dennis and you don't.
On Mon Feb 24 10:05:41 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 11:44:02 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 2/22/2025 1:58 PM, cyclintom wrote:
Who the hell does he think he's impressi9ng by saying
that yhe didn't look down at down tube friction shifters in races
I'm not impressing anyone, because no one else had to look down either.
If one needed to look down to shift, they shouldn't be racing.
My touring bicycle has downtube shifters. When I was riding it, I
would look down before shifting at the start of the ride. After I
became accustomed to its position, I didn't need to look down. If I
adjusted the saddle or handlebars position, I had to start over. I
assume that racers and pros do not tinker with these adjustments prior
to a race and would therefore have the time needed to properly find
the down tube shifters.
In the my computer biz and piano pounding hobby, I've noticed that a
fair number of people look at their hands instead of the computer
screen or sheet music. I had both of these problems when I was first
learning to type and play. I've partly fix the keyboard problem and
can now type on the letter keys without looking at the keyboard.
However, the rows of numbers, function keys and number pad are a lost
cause. I have to look at those. The problem is that there are far
too many different keyboard layouts. Recognizing the problem, I
purchase about 10 Dell SK-81xx mechanical keyboards for use at home
and in my former office.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=dell%20sk-81%3F%3F&udm=2>
I can now almost type with my eyes closed.
With the piano, the problem was that I play almost totally by ear. No
sheet music. Therefore, I had no incentive to learn to play by touch
or with my eyes closed. I can play with my eyes closed on my Korg
DSS-1 synthesizer, but not on any other piano, organ, etc:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=korg%20dss-1&udm=2>
What's happening is that people have varying degrees of hand-eye
coordination. Some people can type or play piano with their eye's
closed. Here's an example of one pianist who can play without looking
at his hands:
<https://www.youtube.com/@Lord_Vinheteiro/videos>
For cycling, the trick is to reduce the number of variables to make
shifting easier for the rider. That means don't move the saddle or
shifters, large paddle handles, and lots of practice.
Jeff, you didn't need to look down because you were riding in middle gears and not shifting much. You don't know anything about racing and are willing to believe that a 65 year old man who rides 1,500 miles a year can ride 2, 200 miles in one day twiceat a 20 mph average on hilly roads.
On Mon Feb 24 14:56:30 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/24/2025 1:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 11:44:02 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
... If one needed to look down to shift, they shouldn't be racing.
My touring bicycle has downtube shifters. When I was riding it, I
would look down before shifting at the start of the ride. After I
became accustomed to its position, I didn't need to look down.
Looking down is reasonable to see if one's friction shifters had the
derailleur sideplates precisely clear of the chain and chainring before
starting. I doubt anyone older than 11 needs to look down to find the
levers.
I don't look down to grab a water bottle out of its cage. It's always in
the same position.
... I ... can now type on the letter keys without looking at the keyboard. >>> However, the rows of numbers, function keys and number pad are a lost
cause. I have to look at those.
From time to time, I had enough numerical data to process that I taught
myself to use the number pad without looking. It's not hard. (But its
weird that telephone key pads are not the same layout as keyboard keypads.) >>
What's happening is that people have varying degrees of hand-eye
coordination. Some people can type or play piano with their eye's
closed.
Try playing fiddle or cello! There are no frets, so there's no visual
markers to look at. Stopping the string against the fingerboard has to
be done entirely by muscle memory and near instantaneous auditory
correction, if necessary. On fiddle, it's most difficult when shifting
upward from first position to play in a higher position. By comparison,
guitar, clarinet, flute etc. are much easier, IME.
There you have it from Franks lips to your ears - the professionals I consulted wh said that you ALWAYS looked down were incompetent fools while Frank is the real expert.
When I raced friction shifters I always looked down and so did every other rider.
This meant that you left a little more space in between you and the rider ahead of you.
In fact, Frank doesn't even believe that STI was an advancement because it allowed you not to have to look down and so could draft much closer.
It is amazing how expert a man is with a 7 speed freewheel friction shifter.
On Web 22 14:56:54 2025 AMuzi wrote:
"Dennis"? lol....let me guess, Dennis is Tom Ritchey's real name and
only you know that...right, or is this another case of "light lines"?
I know him when he was riding klunkers down that hill over in Marin. I
hate to have to explain this to you but he is not this supreme expert
you seem to think he is. And I've ridden bikes of his that rode like
shit. He screwed around with geometry for some time before he hit the
sweet spot. While those guys wee riding a total of perhaps 5 miles to
crash down that hill I was riding 50 mile round trips with 16% climbs on
it. My cousin lives 2 or 3 miles from tha5 hill.
Shouldn't you be telling us about those 2, 200 mile days at an average speed of 20 mph.
One of the engineers I worked with was Dennis Ritchey so I confused their names. You on the other hand simply lied.
On Mon Mar 3 14:59:40 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 03 Mar 2025 16:27:02 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Sat Feb 22 13:13:40 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 12:36:11 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote:
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and working as an >>>>> exempt employee, professional, manager, executive, or consultant.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The above sentence should be:
If you "never worked one job where a boss didn't demand full
attention", you were likely NOT receiving a salary and were probably
NOT working as an exempt employee, professional, manager, executive,
or consultant.
I will ask you again: since the only job you ever worked, the supervisor would not even give you a recommendation, what in hell gives you the idea that you know ANYTHING about working?
That's easy. A sure sign that I know something about working is that
employers, clients and companies were willing to pay me do things for
them. The following are some things that gave me the idea that I know
something about working for a living:
1. One house without a mortgage.
2. Social Security payments based on my past income.
3. One 24 year old automobile without a mortgage.
4. A continuing demand for my services after my retirement.
5. A bank account with sufficient cash to hopefully will survive the
antics of our fearless leader.
6. Whatever else I forgot.
I will ask you again: What maker and model bicycle were you riding
when your amazing frame tubing magically repaired a dent by simply
riding the bicycle? I want to read about this magic tubing.
Will you stop it with the bullshit? You have a home without a mortgage because of the small inheritance your father left you. And it was dirt cheap and when you bought it, it was in the middle of nowhere with ultra-cheap property values. What makes youthink that you can lie your way out of a life full of mistakes?
I am STILL getting calls to work despite being retired for the last 17 years. And contrary to Flunky's tearful claims it is HR departments sending me requests.
On Tue Mar 4 23:52:41 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2025 10:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2025 4:28 PM, cyclintom wrote:
I have a set of damascus steel knives that you dare notskin and yet they can be flexed.
touch to your
Of course! No solid is perfectly rigid. All metals deform or
"flex" when stress is applied. That has nothing much to do
with your claims of magic tubing healing itself.
A dent by definition is beyond the elastic limit.
Andrew, your implication is that if it doesn't return to it's shape instantly, it is beyond its yield strength. I used to think that before that dent disappeared. Obviously it was somewhere between a dent and the elastic limits of the metal.
On Tue Mar 4 12:03:42 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2025 12:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For a typical dent, this Waterford for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12a.jpg
the tube is rolled to reform the greater part of the deformation:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12b.jpg
then the remaining low spots are filled with polyester bondo or with
metal (brass, silver, lead. I use lead):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12c.jpg
and finished:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd12e.jpg
Could you explain what's meant by "the tube is rolled"? As I said
earlier, I'd thought the first step would be pushing a mandrel through
(if the dent was in the seatpost) to partially push out the dent. Of
course, that wouldn't work except on a seat tube, and I suppose would
still require filling. Are you skipping that step entirely?
BTW, my antique BMW has a slight dent in the top of the gas tank,
apparently from something falling onto it. I've heard of "paintless dent
repair" for car bodies and wondered about it, but never looked deeply
into it. I gather that some skilled body workers can do pretty well at
pushing dents back out from the underside.
Have you got this now? Skilled body workers sometimes find a dent that they push on from the opposite side and the dent pops out. Wait a minute - you are all saying that is impossible.
On Tue Mar 4 08:35:53 2025 Zen Cycle wrote:
I'm more interested in this million dollar investment than he's had for
5 years and is still only worth a million - even though he's allegedly
making 10-14K a month on it for these 5 years.
I GAVE $60,000 to my brothers,
I eat at restaurants almost every night including some pretty pricey one's that you can see on Check Please, Bay Area.
In order to protect my investments from any possible recession
I have moved from growth stocks into fuds like Govertrnment bonds which pay low interest rates rather than growth.
And I still have increased my investments to over $1.1 Million.
You on the other hand think that you couldn't possibly have any money unless you're throwing it to the 4 winds.
Too bad that I don't have to worry for a second about my retirement while any company that would allow you to do no work at all is not long for this world.
On Mon Feb 24 12:57:55 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 14:56:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From time to time, I had enough numerical data to process that I taughtThe first touch tone phone was introduced by Ma Bell (AT&T) in 1963.
myself to use the number pad without looking. It's not hard. (But its
weird that telephone key pads are not the same layout as keyboard keypads.) >>
At the time, Ma Bell was doing everything possible to avoid being
declared a vertically integrated monopoly, which owns every part of
the business from components to equipment rentals. Ma Bell actually
did own everything, but not the computer part of the business.
Ma Bell had various methods of convincing the courts that they were
not trying to extend their monopoly into the computer business. As
long as Ma Bell was not selling or providing computer products or
services, the illusion was maintained. The problem was that more
things were being done at the CO's (central offices) and at the
subscriber location by computers. The billing machines, switches,
routing, etc were all done by devices closely resembling computers. Ma
Bell's strategy was to rename everything that could possibly be
considered a computer to some other less risky name. AT&T also made
an effort to design the subscriber equipment to NOT look or function
like a computer. The problem was that calculators were far older than
touch tone dials. Therefore, the Ma Bell touch tone dial pad was
re-arranged so that it still functioned for dialing, but would drive
the subscriber (user) insane if they tried to use it as a calculator
or switch back and forth between the layouts.
There are also some other theories on why there's a difference:
<https://www.vcalc.net/keyboard.htm>
Bell Telephone constructed NONE of their computerized switching. That was done at IBM in south San Jose.
On Wed, 05 Mar 2025 19:33:47 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Mon Feb 24 12:57:55 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 14:56:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From time to time, I had enough numerical data to process that I taught >>>> myself to use the number pad without looking. It's not hard. (But its
weird that telephone key pads are not the same layout as keyboard keypads.)
The first touch tone phone was introduced by Ma Bell (AT&T) in 1963.
At the time, Ma Bell was doing everything possible to avoid being
declared a vertically integrated monopoly, which owns every part of
the business from components to equipment rentals. Ma Bell actually
did own everything, but not the computer part of the business.
Ma Bell had various methods of convincing the courts that they were
not trying to extend their monopoly into the computer business. As
long as Ma Bell was not selling or providing computer products or
services, the illusion was maintained. The problem was that more
things were being done at the CO's (central offices) and at the
subscriber location by computers. The billing machines, switches,
routing, etc were all done by devices closely resembling computers. Ma
Bell's strategy was to rename everything that could possibly be
considered a computer to some other less risky name. AT&T also made
an effort to design the subscriber equipment to NOT look or function
like a computer. The problem was that calculators were far older than
touch tone dials. Therefore, the Ma Bell touch tone dial pad was
re-arranged so that it still functioned for dialing, but would drive
the subscriber (user) insane if they tried to use it as a calculator
or switch back and forth between the layouts.
There are also some other theories on why there's a difference:
<https://www.vcalc.net/keyboard.htm>
Bell Telephone constructed NONE of their computerized switching. That was done at IBM in south San Jose.
Really?
"3B series computers"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3B_series_computers>
"The 3B series computers are a line of minicomputers made between the
late 1970s and 1993 by AT&T Computer Systems' Western Electric
subsidiary, for use with the company's UNIX operating system. The line primarily consists of the models 3B20, 3B5, 3B15, 3B2, and 3B4000. The
series is notable for controlling a series of electronic switching
systems for telecommunications, for general computing purposes, and
for serving as the historical software porting base for commercial
UNIX."
Before 2006, when Alcatel merged with Lucent, switching hardware for
AT&T was made by a wide variety of vendors: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_telephone_switches>
IBM is listed as ROLM.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROLM>
"The Breakup of "Ma Bell": United States v. AT&T" <https://www.fjc.gov/history/spotlight-judicial-history/breakup-ma-bell>
"One consequence of the agreement was that AT&T was forbidden to enter
the computer business, a concession the company’s management did not
see as very significant at the time."
"Breakup of the Bell System" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System>
"It also proposed that it be freed from a 1956 antitrust consent
decree, then administered by Judge Vincent P. Biunno in the United
States District Court for the District of New Jersey, that barred it
from participating in the general sale of computers..."
On 3/5/2025 1:51 PM, cyclintom wrote:
... instead of actually looking into the science.
What a weird idea. I took two courses in metallurgy as part
of my first engineering degree. I taught basics of
metallurgy as part of manufacturing courses at two different
schools. I'm betting I'm the only person here who has used a
metalloscope (although Andrew might have), I'm sure I've
done and observed more heat treating than most here, and I'm
sure I've done and taught more physical testing of
materials, including testing for modulus of elasticity,
elastic limit, yield point, ultimate tensile strength,
hardness by at least 3 or 4 different methods, etc.
Tell us about your education and experience in metallurgy,
Tom. Especially, tell us where you were taught that
plastically deformed metal can spontaneously return to its
undeformed shape, and how that can happen. Nobody here
believes you.
On 3/5/2025 2:29 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Feb 24 14:56:30 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
I doubt anyone older than 11 needs to look down to find the
levers.
I don't look down to grab a water bottle out of its cage. It's always in >>> the same position.
There you have it from Franks lips to your ears - the professionals I
consulted wh said that you ALWAYS looked down were incompetent fools
while Frank is the real expert. When I raced friction shifters I always looked down ...
I'm not disputing that _you_ had to look down dozens or hundreds of
times during a ride to remember where your shift levers were. I'm just
saying that most other people never had to look.
Why don't you get some of "the professionals you consulted" to post
here? Maybe with video?
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