Wow that was fast and quite the difference from when they
threw out the first charge. I don't think they really could
legally do that and proceed but it happen and now not
guilty. I am sure glad of the situation but you wonder what
will come.
No bike content for the newsgroup but still a taking point
while on a long ride with friends right?
On 12/9/2024 10:48 AM, Mark J cleary wrote:
Wow that was fast and quite the difference from when they threw out
the first charge. I don't think they really could legally do that and
proceed but it happen and now not guilty. I am sure glad of the
situation but you wonder what will come.
No bike content for the newsgroup but still a taking point while on a
long ride with friends right?
Yes, a serendipitous result. I for one did not expect it.
In other current events, someone was just arrested in Altoona PA in the matter of the NYC assassination last week.
On 12/9/2024 12:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2024 10:48 AM, Mark J cleary wrote:
Wow that was fast and quite the difference from when they
threw out the first charge. I don't think they really
could legally do that and proceed but it happen and now
not guilty. I am sure glad of the situation but you
wonder what will come.
No bike content for the newsgroup but still a taking
point while on a long ride with friends right?
Yes, a serendipitous result. I for one did not expect it.
In other current events, someone was just arrested in
Altoona PA in the matter of the NYC assassination last week.
It's been pointed out that police, FBI, media etc. have
invested FAR more money and energy in this murder than in
the murder of an ordinary citizen.
Money talks, sometimes in strange ways.
Wow that was fast and quite the difference from when they threw out the
first charge. I don't think they really could legally do that and
proceed but it happen and now not guilty. I am sure glad of the
situation but you wonder what will come.
No bike content for the newsgroup but still a taking point while on a
long ride with friends right?
On 12/9/2024 10:48 AM, Mark J cleary wrote:
Wow that was fast and quite the difference from when they
threw out the first charge. I don't think they really could
legally do that and proceed but it happen and now not
guilty. I am sure glad of the situation but you wonder what
will come.
No bike content for the newsgroup but still a taking point
while on a long ride with friends right?
Yes, a serendipitous result. I for one did not expect it.
In other current events, someone was just arrested in
Altoona PA in the matter of the NYC assassination last week.
On 12/9/2024 12:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2024 10:48 AM, Mark J cleary wrote:
Wow that was fast and quite the difference from when they threw out
the first charge. I don't think they really could legally do that and
proceed but it happen and now not guilty. I am sure glad of the
situation but you wonder what will come.
No bike content for the newsgroup but still a taking point while on a
long ride with friends right?
Yes, a serendipitous result. I for one did not expect it.
In other current events, someone was just arrested in Altoona PA in the
matter of the NYC assassination last week.
It's been pointed out that police, FBI, media etc. have invested FAR
more money and energy in this murder than in the murder of an ordinary >citizen.
Money talks, sometimes in strange ways.
Perry is an ordinary citizen
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
I hope he does.
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
--Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Perhaps your opinions matter, just not to me.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder >>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder >>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
He won't be doing it again.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:55:14 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/9/2024 12:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2024 12:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2024 10:48 AM, Mark J cleary wrote:
Wow that was fast and quite the difference from when they
threw out the first charge. I don't think they really
could legally do that and proceed but it happen and now
not guilty. I am sure glad of the situation but you
wonder what will come.
No bike content for the newsgroup but still a taking
point while on a long ride with friends right?
Yes, a serendipitous result. I for one did not expect it.
In other current events, someone was just arrested in
Altoona PA in the matter of the NYC assassination last week.
It's been pointed out that police, FBI, media etc. have
invested FAR more money and energy in this murder than in
the murder of an ordinary citizen.
Money talks, sometimes in strange ways.
Yes you are correct.
Chicago for example (a city with which I am familiar. A
woman was shot dead by a home invader last night four blocks
from my daughter's apartment) has the highest number of
homicides for US cities, but merely #7 in homicides per
population and yet one of the most abysmal clearance rates.
Clearance numbers are also not quite what they seem:
https://cwbchicago.com/2024/02/chicago-police-say-they-cleared-51-7-of-murders-last-year-heres-what-they-didnt-say.html
So for proper statistical balance I suppose there's no
choice but to murder a few millionaires to even things up a
bit. Nothing else has made any difference.
One side of the problem. But what would be the reaction to, oh say,
doubling the numbers of police ... to be paid for by a tax on city
residents?
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. Vázquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Perhaps your opinions matter, just not to me.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. Vázquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Not strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving all the
while. He was breathing when police arrived but succumbed to his prior
drug ingestion.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder >>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder >>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. Vzquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Not strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving
all the while. He was breathing when police arrived but
succumbed to his prior drug ingestion.
On 12/10/2024 7:22 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Perhaps your opinions matter, just not to me.
He explicitly menaced women saying 'I am going to kill
someone today and I don't care if I die'.
Review testimony--
of the women in the subway car.
The standard is 'direct threat to human life'.
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. Vzquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he
died of an overdose.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:25:44 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Not strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving
all the while. He was breathing when police arrived but
succumbed to his prior drug ingestion.
Not what the autopsy said. Or the toxicology. Or the
bloodwork.
No signs of any poisons and no signs of a sickle cell attack.
You are quoting the defense's "pathologist". Who did not
examine the patient and was probably bought.
[]'s
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:38:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. Vázquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he
died of an overdose.
You can't die of an overdose of cannabis.... it's impossible.
However. you can die from an overdose of compression of the
throat.
[]'s
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:Keep in mind, we're responding to a man who never rides without a loaded handgun. Why? Because once upon a time some guy grabbed and tore his
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
Floriduh dumbass has convinced himself that the murdered man attacked
people, and therefore deserved an extrajudicial execution.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
I was thinking exactly the same thing
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
You're going to upset Mr. Tricycle Rider. He hates it when reality
interferes with his personal views.
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br>
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br>
wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and
helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks
ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic
breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt
to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues
because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a
long time
ago.
You're going to upset Mr. Tricycle Rider. He hates it when
reality interferes with his personal views.
On 12/10/2024 10:13 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:Keep in mind, we're responding to a man who never rides without a loaded >handgun. Why? Because once upon a time some guy grabbed and tore his
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
Floriduh dumbass has convinced himself that the murdered man attacked
people, and therefore deserved an extrajudicial execution.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
I was thinking exactly the same thing
jacket.
If he'd have had his gun then, he'd have killed the jacket grabber and
felt justified.
What a miserable old man.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:01:36 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 10:13 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:Keep in mind, we're responding to a man who never rides without a loaded
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He >>>>>> was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
Floriduh dumbass has convinced himself that the murdered man attacked
people, and therefore deserved an extrajudicial execution.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
I was thinking exactly the same thing
handgun. Why? Because once upon a time some guy grabbed and tore his
jacket.
No, it was my shirt.
If he'd have had his gun then, he'd have killed the jacket grabber and
felt justified.
Assumes facts not in evidence...
More likely, I'd have shown him my gun and he'd have backed off.
What a miserable old man.
I suspect that more miserable is the guy who advises his associates
that wearing a helmet is foolish, and then watches them all put their
helmets on and ride away.
Me? I'm a happy guy. I rode a few miles on a bi-directional bicycle
side path yesterday. That always makes me smile.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. Vázquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he died of an overdose.
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:I haven't located a good video, but there should be considerable margin
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Not strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving all the
while. He was breathing when police arrived but succumbed to his prior
drug ingestion.
On 12/10/2024 9:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he died of an
overdose.
Exactly! What are you suppose to believe. If I go to get on an airplane
and some guys gets up from his seat who is mentally ill and says he is
going to hijack the plane, what do you think happens? They have to take
him at his word. Either subdue or figure a way to get him off the plane
fast.
Penny ( not Perry ) I made typo did subdue him but did not cause his
death as such. When we take drugs and do things that are harmful to the
body it can compromise our ability to survive.
On 12/10/2024 12:25 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:01:36 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 10:13 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:Keep in mind, we're responding to a man who never rides without a loaded >>> handgun. Why? Because once upon a time some guy grabbed and tore his
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He >>>>>>> was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack >>>>>>> anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
Floriduh dumbass has convinced himself that the murdered man attacked
people, and therefore deserved an extrajudicial execution.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
I was thinking exactly the same thing
jacket.
No, it was my shirt.
If he'd have had his gun then, he'd have killed the jacket grabber and
felt justified.
Assumes facts not in evidence...
More likely, I'd have shown him my gun and he'd have backed off.
What a miserable old man.
I suspect that more miserable is the guy who advises his associates
that wearing a helmet is foolish, and then watches them all put their
helmets on and ride away.
Me? I'm a happy guy. I rode a few miles on a bi-directional bicycle
side path yesterday. That always makes me smile.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
I'd sit next to you on the train but as far as separated
bicycle paths, no thanks.
On 12/10/2024 10:13 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:38:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. Vzquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he
died of an overdose.
You can't die of an overdose of cannabis.... it's impossible.
However. you can die from an overdose of compression of the
throat.
[]'s
Correct about smoking cannabis. But we now have extra
concentrated THC products:
https://www.goodrx.com/classes/cannabinoids/can-you-overdose-on-weed-with-thc
And Mr Neely was using the synthetic K2 with unknown
concentration, additives, impurities.
On 12/10/2024 10:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:I haven't located a good video, but there should be
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and
helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath.
Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health
plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would
save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Not strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is
moving all the while. He was breathing when police arrived
but succumbed to his prior drug ingestion.
considerable margin between controlling a man and killing
that man.
Was the "choke hold" actual pressure on the windpipe? Fuzzy
video doesn't look like that. Instead it looks like one
exercise I remember from martial arts class: a hold that
used forearms to close off the carotid arteries at the sides
of the neck, those that feed blood to the brain. We were
taught to slap the mat when we began to lose consciousness.
It didn't interfere with breathing at all.
ISTM that type of hold might have been what was used, and
should be very controllable. When the guy winks out, release
pressure. He won't be fighting. If Penny were competent and
not murderous, he would have used that technique.
On 12/10/2024 1:49 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he died of an
overdose.
Exactly! What are you suppose to believe. If I go to get on an airplane
and some guys gets up from his seat who is mentally ill and says he is
going to hijack the plane, what do you think happens? They have to take
him at his word. Either subdue or figure a way to get him off the plane
fast.
That sort of thing has happened many times. They never needed to kill
the guy, AFAIK.
Penny ( not Perry ) I made typo did subdue him but did not cause his
death as such. When we take drugs and do things that are harmful to the
body it can compromise our ability to survive.
As I said elsewhere, there's great difference between subduing a man and >killing him. That should be true even if the person has taken some
drugs, especially if the person doing the subduing has training, as did >Penny.
You're justifying manslaughter. I don't think that's your church's
official position, and I think it's morally reprehensible.
On 12/10/2024 1:49 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and
he died of an overdose.
Exactly! What are you suppose to believe. If I go to get
on an airplane and some guys gets up from his seat who is
mentally ill and says he is going to hijack the plane,
what do you think happens? They have to take him at his
word. Either subdue or figure a way to get him off the
plane fast.
That sort of thing has happened many times. They never
needed to kill the guy, AFAIK.
Penny ( not Perry ) I made typo did subdue him but did
not cause his death as such. When we take drugs and do
things that are harmful to the body it can compromise our
ability to survive.
As I said elsewhere, there's great difference between
subduing a man and killing him. That should be true even if
the person has taken some drugs, especially if the person
doing the subduing has training, as did Penny.
You're justifying manslaughter. I don't think that's your
church's official position, and I think it's morally
reprehensible.
On 12/10/2024 1:49 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he died of an
overdose.
Exactly! What are you suppose to believe. If I go to get on an
airplane and some guys gets up from his seat who is mentally ill and
says he is going to hijack the plane, what do you think happens? They
have to take him at his word. Either subdue or figure a way to get him
off the plane fast.
That sort of thing has happened many times. They never needed to kill
the guy, AFAIK.
Penny ( not Perry ) I made typo did subdue him but did not cause his
death as such. When we take drugs and do things that are harmful to
the body it can compromise our ability to survive.
As I said elsewhere, there's great difference between subduing a man and killing him. That should be true even if the person has taken some
drugs, especially if the person doing the subduing has training, as did Penny.
You're justifying manslaughter. I don't think that's your church's
official position, and I think it's morally reprehensible.
On 12/10/2024 1:04 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2024 1:49 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he died of an
overdose.
Exactly! What are you suppose to believe. If I go to get on an
airplane and some guys gets up from his seat who is mentally ill and
says he is going to hijack the plane, what do you think happens? They
have to take him at his word. Either subdue or figure a way to get him
off the plane fast.
That sort of thing has happened many times. They never needed to kill
the guy, AFAIK.
Penny ( not Perry ) I made typo did subdue him but did not cause his
death as such. When we take drugs and do things that are harmful to
the body it can compromise our ability to survive.
As I said elsewhere, there's great difference between subduing a man and
killing him. That should be true even if the person has taken some
drugs, especially if the person doing the subduing has training, as did
Penny.
You're justifying manslaughter. I don't think that's your church's
official position, and I think it's morally reprehensible.
I did not say I am justifying what he did was morally correct. I am
applying the principle of a legal case in the US that he committed a
crime of homicide in any form. We should all try to error on the side of >caution and all that went on will only be know to God Himself.
Of course when you are a deacon they bring that up all the time about
how you are and you thoughts. All of us are sinners me and you included.
I think based completely on not being there and what I read he should
not even have been charged. In the end it all has gone bad.
Without some in depth spiritual discussion with Penny I could not say >anything. That is a one on one thing that people fail to comprehend many >times.
Moral law is completely different is some ways. Morally we do not abort >babies because of rape or incest, that is the only moral thing to do.
That gets thrown around all the time. Not many everyday people I know
agree with that full concept of no abortions even in rape and incest.
On 12/10/2024 7:22 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Perhaps your opinions matter, just not to me.
He explicitly menaced women saying 'I am going to kill someone today
and I don't care if I die'. Review testimony of the women in the
subway car.
The standard is 'direct threat to human life'.
On 12/10/2024 10:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:I haven't located a good video, but there should be considerable
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike RyderNot strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving all the
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
while. He was breathing when police arrived but succumbed to his
prior drug ingestion.
margin between controlling a man and killing that man.
Was the "choke hold" actual pressure on the windpipe? Fuzzy video
doesn't look like that. Instead it looks like one exercise I remember
from martial arts class: a hold that used forearms to close off the
carotid arteries at the sides of the neck, those that feed blood to
the brain. We were taught to slap the mat when we began to lose consciousness. It didn't interfere with breathing at all.
ISTM that type of hold might have been what was used, and should be
very controllable. When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't
be fighting. If Penny were competent and not murderous, he would have
used that technique.
On 12/10/2024 8:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gXXmail.com> writes:
On 12/10/2024 10:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:I haven't located a good video, but there should be considerable
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike RyderNot strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving all the
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
while. He was breathing when police arrived but succumbed to his
prior drug ingestion.
margin between controlling a man and killing that man.
Was the "choke hold" actual pressure on the windpipe? Fuzzy video
doesn't look like that. Instead it looks like one exercise I remember
from martial arts class: a hold that used forearms to close off the
carotid arteries at the sides of the neck, those that feed blood to
the brain. We were taught to slap the mat when we began to lose
consciousness. It didn't interfere with breathing at all.
ISTM that type of hold might have been what was used, and should be
very controllable. When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't
be fighting. If Penny were competent and not murderous, he would have
used that technique.
Easy for you to say, as I recall you've never actually done that, and
are a bit too fond of talking through your hat. Ever been choked out?
Ever choked anyone out?
As I said, I did experience near unconsciousness when learning that
carotid artery move, as did the fellow classmate I worked with. IIRC, it
went as far as tunnel vision and weird ringing in my ears, at which
point I slapped the mat to be released. I'm sure that if my classmate
hadn't quickly released me, I'd have been out for a bit and _very_ easy
to control.
Controlling an adult man intending violence is neither simple nor easy;
success is not assured, especially when time drags on.
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should
have been able to do the job and control the man without killing him. >Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement
officers, probably with less combat training.
"NEW YORK (AP) When Daniel Penny wrapped his arm around the neck of a >homeless man on a Manhattan subway last year, the 25-year-old veteran >appeared to be deploying a non-lethal chokehold long drilled into U.S. >Marines.
Done right, the maneuver should knock a person out without killing them, >according to Joseph Caballer, a combat instructor in the Marine Corps
who trained Penny in several types of holds. But held too long, the
technique can restrict the flow of blood to a persons brain, ending
their life in a matter of minutes.
Once the person is rendered unconscious, thats when youre supposed to
let go, Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
I think if the victim were, say, the white CEO of a major health
insurance company, Penny would have let him live. Alternately, if he
hadn't, the jury would have convicted Penny.
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 12/10/2024 7:22 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Perhaps your opinions matter, just not to me.
He explicitly menaced women saying 'I am going to kill someone today
and I don't care if I die'. Review testimony of the women in the
subway car.
The standard is 'direct threat to human life'.
There was a similar case in NYC not long ago, a passenger fatally
stabbed another threatening passenger:
https://nypost.com/2023/05/16/grand-jury-dismisses-charges-finds-fatal-nyc-subway-slay-was-self-defense/
The grand jury declined to indict the stabber. It's hard not to notice
that one difference from Mr. Penny is a bit more melanin.
On 12/10/2024 8:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gXXmail.com> writes:
On 12/10/2024 10:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:Easy for you to say, as I recall you've never actually done that,
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:I haven't located a good video, but there should be considerable
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike RyderNot strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving all the
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>> to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
while. He was breathing when police arrived but succumbed to his
prior drug ingestion.
margin between controlling a man and killing that man.
Was the "choke hold" actual pressure on the windpipe? Fuzzy video
doesn't look like that. Instead it looks like one exercise I remember
from martial arts class: a hold that used forearms to close off the
carotid arteries at the sides of the neck, those that feed blood to
the brain. We were taught to slap the mat when we began to lose
consciousness. It didn't interfere with breathing at all.
ISTM that type of hold might have been what was used, and should be
very controllable. When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't
be fighting. If Penny were competent and not murderous, he would have
used that technique.
and
are a bit too fond of talking through your hat. Ever been choked out?
Ever choked anyone out?
As I said, I did experience near unconsciousness when learning that
carotid artery move, as did the fellow classmate I worked with. IIRC,
it went as far as tunnel vision and weird ringing in my ears, at which
point I slapped the mat to be released. I'm sure that if my classmate
hadn't quickly released me, I'd have been out for a bit and _very_
easy to control.
Controlling an adult man intending violence is neither simple nor easy;
success is not assured, especially when time drags on.
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should
have been able to do the job and control the man without killing
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement officers, probably with less combat training.
"NEW YORK (AP) — When Daniel Penny wrapped his arm around the neck of
a homeless man on a Manhattan subway last year, the 25-year-old
veteran appeared to be deploying a non-lethal chokehold long drilled
into U.S. Marines.
Done right, the maneuver should knock a person out without killing
them, according to Joseph Caballer, a combat instructor in the Marine
Corps who trained Penny in several types of holds. But held too long,
the technique can restrict the flow of blood to a person’s brain,
ending their life in a matter of minutes.
“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s when you’re supposed to let go,” Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
I think if the victim were, say, the white CEO of a major health
insurance company, Penny would have let him live. Alternately, if he
hadn't, the jury would have convicted Penny.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/10/2024 8:29 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gXXmail.com> writes:
On 12/10/2024 10:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:Easy for you to say, as I recall you've never actually done that,
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:I haven't located a good video, but there should be considerable
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike RyderNot strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving all the >>>>> while. He was breathing when police arrived but succumbed to his
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>> to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then, >>>>>> yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan? >>>>>> Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
prior drug ingestion.
margin between controlling a man and killing that man.
Was the "choke hold" actual pressure on the windpipe? Fuzzy video
doesn't look like that. Instead it looks like one exercise I remember
from martial arts class: a hold that used forearms to close off the
carotid arteries at the sides of the neck, those that feed blood to
the brain. We were taught to slap the mat when we began to lose
consciousness. It didn't interfere with breathing at all.
ISTM that type of hold might have been what was used, and should be
very controllable. When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't
be fighting. If Penny were competent and not murderous, he would have
used that technique.
and
are a bit too fond of talking through your hat. Ever been choked out?
Ever choked anyone out?
As I said, I did experience near unconsciousness when learning that
carotid artery move, as did the fellow classmate I worked with. IIRC,
it went as far as tunnel vision and weird ringing in my ears, at which
point I slapped the mat to be released. I'm sure that if my classmate
hadn't quickly released me, I'd have been out for a bit and _very_
easy to control.
Controlling an adult man intending violence is neither simple nor easy;
success is not assured, especially when time drags on.
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should
have been able to do the job and control the man without killing
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement
officers, probably with less combat training.
Combat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why
would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
"NEW YORK (AP) — When Daniel Penny wrapped his arm around the neck of
a homeless man on a Manhattan subway last year, the 25-year-old
veteran appeared to be deploying a non-lethal chokehold long drilled
into U.S. Marines.
Done right, the maneuver should knock a person out without killing
them, according to Joseph Caballer, a combat instructor in the Marine
Corps who trained Penny in several types of holds. But held too long,
the technique can restrict the flow of blood to a person’s brain,
ending their life in a matter of minutes.
“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s when you’re supposed >> to let go,” Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
And then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave. Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a
bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
I think if the victim were, say, the white CEO of a major health
insurance company, Penny would have let him live. Alternately, if he
hadn't, the jury would have convicted Penny.
A white (or black) CEO acting out in a schizophrenic fashion and
threatening other people would likely have had exactly the same
treatment. CEOs just don't usually ride the subway much.
You seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should
have been able to do the job and control the man without killing
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement
officers, probably with less combat training.
Combat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost
without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why
would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious
answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are in
no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a
shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would
remove all danger.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many other cops)
then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a Police
Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to the
police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a marine
couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor, semiconscious? Bullshit.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds of
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times
that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm
very, very sure what he's going to say.
...
Once the person is rendered unconscious, thats when youre supposed
to let go, Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
And then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave.
Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a
bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
You seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to incompetence
when his training should have given him competence. And I think that if
he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white CEO of a huge >insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right now.
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He shouldCombat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
have been able to do the job and control the man without killing
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement
officers, probably with less combat training.
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost
without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why
would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious
answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would
remove all danger.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many other
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to
the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds of
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times
that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm
very, very sure what he's going to say.
...
“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s when you’re supposed >>> to let go,” Caballer told a jury on Thursday."And then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave.
Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a
bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
You seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I
think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right
now.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should >>>> have been able to do the job and control the man without killingCombat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement
officers, probably with less combat training.
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost >>> without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why
would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious >>> answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a
shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would
remove all danger.
I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice mat, with adult supervision and good will all around, were not up to being combative
after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with some actual
fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly dumber version of
Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner, and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many other
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to
the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
Without handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops have also made the news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on the floor, he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not die. We don't
know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds of
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times
that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm
very, very sure what he's going to say.
Must get a little boring doing both sides of the conversation.
...
“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s when you’re supposedAnd then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who
to let go,” Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave. >>> Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a
bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last time you
restrained anyone over the age of three?
You seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I
think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right
now.
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was trained for combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last resort, after artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet, bashing with
an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with a sharp stick.
He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something -- if you are accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in such a way
that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured in seconds).
It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into the dirt a
bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper spray. This is
just not something that ordinary people normally train for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should >>>> have been able to do the job and control the man without killingCombat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement
officers, probably with less combat training.
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost >>> without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why
would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious >>> answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a
shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would
remove all danger.
I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice mat, with adult >supervision and good will all around, were not up to being combative
after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with some actual
fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly dumber version of
Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner, and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many other
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to
the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
Without handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops have also made the >news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on the floor, he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not die. We don't
know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds of
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times
that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm
very, very sure what he's going to say.
Must get a little boring doing both sides of the conversation.
...
Once the person is rendered unconscious, thats when youre supposedAnd then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who
to let go, Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave. >>> Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a
bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last time you
restrained anyone over the age of three?
You seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I
think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right
now.
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was trained for >combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last resort, after >artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet, bashing with
an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with a sharp stick.
He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something -- if you are >accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in such a way
that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured in seconds).
It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into the dirt a
bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper spray. This is
just not something that ordinary people normally train for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
On 12/16/2024 9:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should >>>>> have been able to do the job and control the man without killingCombat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement >>>>> officers, probably with less combat training.
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost >>>> without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why >>>> would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious >>>> answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a
shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would
remove all danger.
I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice mat, with adult
supervision and good will all around, were not up to being combative
after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with some actual
fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly dumber version of
Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner, and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many other
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to
the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
Without handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops have also made the
news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on the floor, he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not die. We don't
know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds of
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times
that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm
very, very sure what he's going to say.
Must get a little boring doing both sides of the conversation.
...
Once the person is rendered unconscious, thats when youre supposed >>>>> to let go, Caballer told a jury on Thursday."And then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave. >>>> Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a >>>> bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last time you
restrained anyone over the age of three?
You seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I
think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right
now.
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was trained for
combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last resort, after
artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet, bashing with
an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with a sharp stick.
He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something -- if you are
accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in such a way
that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured in seconds).
It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into the dirt a
bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper spray. This is
just not something that ordinary people normally train for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered the >moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly unconscious.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers and Michael
Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because
he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he is >absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help
him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is like
other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
On 12/16/2024 9:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique ICombat is not the same as policing, which has its own
described. He should
have been able to do the job and control the man
without killing
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by
law enforcement
officers, probably with less combat training.
repertoire of
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find
themselves a bit lost
without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt
that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term
restraint holds. Why
would it? The main object is physical fitness and
mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't
be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of
technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be
disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out
again is the obvious
answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have
no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the
carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of
it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something
as simple as a
shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his
ankles would
remove all danger.
I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice
mat, with adult
supervision and good will all around, were not up to being
combative
after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with
some actual
fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who
knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly
dumber version of
Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner,
and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know
many other
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board
member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling
perps on foot to
the police station while controlling them, no gun
involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
Without handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop
technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops
have also made the
news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on
the floor, he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not
die. We don't
know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many
hundreds of
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The
very few times
that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this
case, but I'm
very, very sure what he's going to say.
Must get a little boring doing both sides of the
conversation.
...
“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s whenAnd then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the
you’re supposed
to let go,” Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
referee, who
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily
one should leave.
Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to
protect? That's a
bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a
reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last
time you
restrained anyone over the age of three?
You seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed;
even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him
competence. And I
think that if he had done the same thing to a
multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a
long time right
now.
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was
trained for
combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last
resort, after
artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet,
bashing with
an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with
a sharp stick.
He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something --
if you are
accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train
a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in
such a way
that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured
in seconds).
It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like
what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into
the dirt a
bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper
spray. This is
just not something that ordinary people normally train
for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a
few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an
uncontrollable demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!)
who would have murdered the moment an ex-Marine loosened his
grip, despite being nearly unconscious.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers
and Michael Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a
bit. Again, former beat cop, retired professor of criminal
justice, retired board member of the local police academy. I
won't quote him, in part because he's also a retired Navy
submariner and swears like a sailor. But he is absolutely
not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others
available to help him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt
could have held Neely under control once released.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense.
This is like other examples of excessive fear leading to an
unnecessary death.
On 12/17/2024 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/16/2024 9:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:https://nypost.com/2023/05/04/jordan-neely-had-history-of- mental-health-issues-before-subway-death/
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an
uncontrollable demon (_and_ Michael Jackson
impersonator!) who would have murdered the moment an ex-
Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly unconscious.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers
and Michael Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a
bit. Again, former beat cop, retired professor of
criminal justice, retired board member of the local
police academy. I won't quote him, in part because he's
also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor.
But he is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others
available to help him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt
could have held Neely under control once released.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is
nonsense. This is like other examples of excessive fear
leading to an unnecessary death.
The 'impersonator' photo is ten years old. Like the usual
guys killed in an exchange of gunfire during a felony in
Chicago, whose 4th grade 'graduation' image with cap and
gown are prominent, that does not describe the repeatedly
arrested and convicted Mr Neely, a violent drug addict.
Yes, he was messed up. But we need ways of dealing with
people like him without killing them.
Cops and non-cops - hell, guys in bar fights! - deal with
crazies thousands of times per day without killing them.
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing
Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men -
let alone others - could not have subdued him without
killing him.
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing Neely's
arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let alone others -
could not have subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars for
starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-money-in-chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-diversion-centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just gave the
funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared. Neither has been
indicted. Yet...
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man
grabbing Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those
two men - let alone others - could not have subdued him
without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer
dollars for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-money-
in-chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-
diversion-centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio)
just gave the funds to his wife and poof! it just
disappeared. Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that
Penny was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
On 12/17/2024 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/16/2024 9:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers and Michael
Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because
he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he
is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help
him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
The 'impersonator' photo is ten years old. Like the usual guys killed in
an exchange of gunfire during a felony in Chicago, whose 4th grade
'graduation' image with cap and gown are prominent, that does not
describe the repeatedly arrested and convicted Mr Neely, a violent drug
addict. >https://nypost.com/2023/05/04/jordan-neely-had-history-of-mental-health-issues-before-subway-death/
Yes, he was messed up. But we need ways of dealing with people like him >without killing them.
Cops and non-cops - hell, guys in bar fights! - deal with crazies
thousands of times per day without killing them.
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing Neely's arm.
You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let alone others - could
not have subdued him without killing him.
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing Neely's
arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let alone others -
could not have subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars for
starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-money-in-chirlane-
mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-diversion-centers-
for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just gave the
funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared. Neither has been
indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that Penny was
wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man
grabbing Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those
two men - let alone others - could not have subdued him
without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer
dollars for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-money-
in-chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-
diversion-centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio)
just gave the funds to his wife and poof! it just
disappeared. Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that
Penny was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and
especially the subway, who heard the entirety of testimony
and evidence and arguments on one side and then, oh, a
dissent from Mr Krygowski!
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing Neely's
arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let alone others -
could not have subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars for
starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-money- in-
chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd- diversion-
centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just gave
the funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared. Neither has been
indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that Penny was
wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and especially the subway, who heard the entirety of testimony and evidence and arguments
on one side and then, oh, a dissent from Mr Krygowski!
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man
grabbing Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend
those two men - let alone others - could not have
subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer
dollars for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-
money- in- chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-
diversion- centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio)
just gave the funds to his wife and poof! it just
disappeared. Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that
Penny was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and
especially the subway, who heard the entirety of
testimony and evidence and arguments on one side and then,
oh, a dissent from Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury
decisions, judges decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that
Trump should never have been convicted, nor even prosecuted.
Some say he shouldn't even be investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you
deserve to die. If you're white and rich, you deserve to do
anything you like.
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing Neely's
arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let alone others - >>>>> could not have subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars for
starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-money- in-
chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd- diversion-
centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just gave
the funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared. Neither has been
indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that Penny was
wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and especially the
subway, who heard the entirety of testimony and evidence and arguments
on one side and then, oh, a dissent from Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury decisions, judges >decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that Trump should never have been >convicted, nor even prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't even be investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you deserve to die.
If you're white and rich, you deserve to do anything you like.
On 12/17/2024 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man
grabbing Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend
those two men - let alone others - could not have
subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer
dollars for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-
money- in- chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-
diversion- centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill
DiBlasio) just gave the funds to his wife and poof! it
just disappeared. Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact
that Penny was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and
especially the subway, who heard the entirety of
testimony and evidence and arguments on one side and
then, oh, a dissent from Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury
decisions, judges decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that
Trump should never have been convicted, nor even
prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't even be investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you
deserve to die. If you're white and rich, you deserve to
do anything you like.
ohferchrissake.
There's video.
Yes there is. It shows three guys to one, with Neely
eventually going limp but still having his arterial flow
squeezed off. The narration says
"That chokehold lasted about 15 minutes, even with the train
stopped at one point at the Lafayette station with the doors
open." Why not just pitch him off instead of killing him?
And the grateful eyewitness testimony from women in the car.
Sure. People get scared. I've never disputed that Neely
needed to be controlled. And almost everyone in the car
stayed in the car. Hardly a scene of terror. He did not need
to be killed.
And two decidedly not Polish men who sorta almost helped.
I don't know why you're mentioning ethnicity. But it looks
to me like three able bodied men attacked Neely - perhaps
justifiably - but he didn't physically attack anyone else.
He was being controlled for a long, long while. Penny was
_not_ at serious risk.
And the police report noting he was alive when they
arrived but apparently suffering drug effects so the
Sergeant prudently kept officers from starting mouth-to-
mouth.
"Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck
(chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the
medical examiner determined Wednesday afternoon."
Yes, the jury let him off. A jury let George Zimmerman off
after he shot Trayvon Martin for the crime of walking on the
sidewalk while being black. Bernhard Goetz got off after
shooting four black guys for the crime of asking him for
money. I'm thinking "reasonable doubt" seems a lot easier to
establish if the victim is a black male.
(and yes, you're right; I have, as have we all, either
disagreed or screamed in disbelief at a jury verdict or
two over the years.)
On 12/17/2024 8:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing
Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let
alone others - could not have subdued him without killing him. >>>>>>>>
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars for >>>>>>> starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much- money- in-
chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd- diversion-
centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just
gave the funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared. Neither >>>>>>> has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that Penny
was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and especially >>>>> the subway, who heard the entirety of testimony and evidence and
arguments on one side and then, oh, a dissent from Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury decisions, judges
decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that Trump should never have been
convicted, nor even prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't even be
investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you deserve to
die. If you're white and rich, you deserve to do anything you like.
ohferchrissake.
There's video.
Yes there is. It shows three guys to one, with Neely eventually going
limp but still having his arterial flow squeezed off. The narration says
"That chokehold lasted about 15 minutes, even with the train stopped
at one point at the Lafayette station with the doors open." Why not
just pitch him off instead of killing him?
And the grateful eyewitness testimony from women in the car.
Sure. People get scared. I've never disputed that Neely needed to be
controlled. And almost everyone in the car stayed in the car. Hardly a
scene of terror. He did not need to be killed.
And two decidedly not Polish men who sorta almost helped.
I don't know why you're mentioning ethnicity. But it looks to me like
three able bodied men attacked Neely - perhaps justifiably - but he
didn't physically attack anyone else. He was being controlled for a
long, long while. Penny was _not_ at serious risk.
And the police report noting he was alive when they arrived but
apparently suffering drug effects so the Sergeant prudently kept
officers from starting mouth-to- mouth.
"Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” >> and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner determined
Wednesday afternoon."
Yes, the jury let him off. A jury let George Zimmerman off after he
shot Trayvon Martin for the crime of walking on the sidewalk while
being black. Bernhard Goetz got off after shooting four black guys for
the crime of asking him for money. I'm thinking "reasonable doubt"
seems a lot easier to establish if the victim is a black male.
(and yes, you're right; I have, as have we all, either disagreed or
screamed in disbelief at a jury verdict or two over the years.)
It was not 15 minutes. Under six.
And that is, as you know form your prior experience as written here, not
a lethal choke hold position.
https://www.policemag.com/training/article/15316003/unlocking-the- confusion-around-chokeholds
The Medical Examiner freely admitted her report was written after
watching the video on the news and before the toxicology report was
finished. So much for 'licensed professionals' I suppose.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys-chokehold-was-sole- cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa-rcna179940
Mr Martin instigated the altercation and Mr Zimmerman had the bloody
scalp (with matching sidewalk where it was bashed) to prove that.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2012/04/20/151039460/abc-news- photo-shows-george-zimmerman-had-bloodied-head
On 12/17/2024 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing
Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let
alone others - could not have subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars for
starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much- money- in-
chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd- diversion-
centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just gave >>>>>> the funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared. Neither has
been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that Penny was
wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and especially
the subway, who heard the entirety of testimony and evidence and
arguments on one side and then, oh, a dissent from Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury decisions, judges
decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that Trump should never have been
convicted, nor even prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't even be
investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you deserve to
die. If you're white and rich, you deserve to do anything you like.
ohferchrissake.
There's video.
Yes there is. It shows three guys to one, with Neely eventually going
limp but still having his arterial flow squeezed off. The narration says >"That chokehold lasted about 15 minutes, even with the train stopped at
one point at the Lafayette station with the doors open." Why not just
pitch him off instead of killing him?
And the grateful eyewitness testimony from women in the car.
Sure. People get scared. I've never disputed that Neely needed to be >controlled. And almost everyone in the car stayed in the car. Hardly a
scene of terror. He did not need to be killed.
And two decidedly not Polish men who sorta almost helped.
I don't know why you're mentioning ethnicity. But it looks to me like
three able bodied men attacked Neely - perhaps justifiably - but he
didn't physically attack anyone else. He was being controlled for a
long, long while. Penny was _not_ at serious risk.
And the police report noting he was alive when they arrived but
apparently suffering drug effects so the Sergeant prudently kept
officers from starting mouth-to-mouth.
"Jordan Neelys cause of death was compression of neck (chokehold) and
the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner determined
Wednesday afternoon."
Yes, the jury let him off. A jury let George Zimmerman off after he shot >Trayvon Martin for the crime of walking on the sidewalk while being
black. Bernhard Goetz got off after shooting four black guys for the
crime of asking him for money. I'm thinking "reasonable doubt" seems a
lot easier to establish if the victim is a black male.
On 12/17/2024 9:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 8:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man
grabbing Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend
those two men - let alone others - could not have
subdued him without killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half
taxpayer dollars for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much-
money- in- chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-
diversion- centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill
DiBlasio) just gave the funds to his wife and poof!
it just disappeared. Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact
that Penny was wrong in killing Neely. That fact
remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area
and especially the subway, who heard the entirety of
testimony and evidence and arguments on one side and
then, oh, a dissent from Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury
decisions, judges decisions, etc. ISTR reading here
that Trump should never have been convicted, nor even
prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't even be investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich,
you deserve to die. If you're white and rich, you
deserve to do anything you like.
ohferchrissake.
There's video.
Yes there is. It shows three guys to one, with Neely
eventually going limp but still having his arterial flow
squeezed off. The narration says
"That chokehold lasted about 15 minutes, even with the
train stopped at one point at the Lafayette station with
the doors open." Why not just pitch him off instead of
killing him?
And the grateful eyewitness testimony from women in the
car.
Sure. People get scared. I've never disputed that Neely
needed to be controlled. And almost everyone in the car
stayed in the car. Hardly a scene of terror. He did not
need to be killed.
And two decidedly not Polish men who sorta almost helped.
I don't know why you're mentioning ethnicity. But it
looks to me like three able bodied men attacked Neely -
perhaps justifiably - but he didn't physically attack
anyone else. He was being controlled for a long, long
while. Penny was _not_ at serious risk.
And the police report noting he was alive when they
arrived but apparently suffering drug effects so the
Sergeant prudently kept officers from starting mouth-to-
mouth.
"Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck
(chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the
medical examiner determined Wednesday afternoon."
Yes, the jury let him off. A jury let George Zimmerman
off after he shot Trayvon Martin for the crime of walking
on the sidewalk while being black. Bernhard Goetz got off
after shooting four black guys for the crime of asking
him for money. I'm thinking "reasonable doubt" seems a
lot easier to establish if the victim is a black male.
(and yes, you're right; I have, as have we all, either
disagreed or screamed in disbelief at a jury verdict or
two over the years.)
It was not 15 minutes. Under six.
And that is, as you know form your prior experience as
written here, not a lethal choke hold position.
https://www.policemag.com/training/article/15316003/
unlocking-the- confusion-around-chokeholds
The Medical Examiner freely admitted her report was
written after watching the video on the news and before
the toxicology report was finished. So much for 'licensed
professionals' I suppose.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys-
chokehold-was-sole- cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa-
rcna179940
Mr Martin instigated the altercation and Mr Zimmerman had
the bloody scalp (with matching sidewalk where it was
bashed) to prove that.
COMPLETE FUCKING BULLSHIT! Zimmerman harassed and attacked
Martin.
https://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/18/new-trayvon-martin- evidence-10-things-you-should-know/
"George Zimmerman may have been profiling black males. In
the months before the Feb. 26 shooting, George Zimmerman
called the police several times to report suspicious
persons. In all of these calls, he identified the subject as
a black male. The calls were made on August 3, 4, and 6,
2011; October 6, 2011; and Feb 12, 2012."
"The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided
Dispatch shows that Zimmerman called police to report a
suspicious person, then told them the subject was running
from him. The exchange between the dispatcher and Zimmerman
shows that he was advised not to continue to follow Martin."
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2012/04/20/151039460/abc-news- photo-shows-george-
zimmerman-had-bloodied-head
oh for fucks sake andrew - yeah, they had an altercation,
based solely on the the fact that Trayvon Martin was a young
black man walking in a predominantly white neighborhood.
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? Likely not - but like
all these dumb macho motherfucker hero wannbes, he created a
situation that turned deadly.
Why is it that everytime there's an incident like this you
take the side of the white guy who kills the unarmed balck guy?
On 12/18/2024 6:51 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 12/17/2024 9:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 8:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing >>>>>>>>>> Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let >>>>>>>>>> alone others - could not have subdued him without killing him. >>>>>>>>>>
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars >>>>>>>>> for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much- money- in- >>>>>>>>> chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd- diversion- >>>>>>>>> centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just >>>>>>>>> gave the funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared.
Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that Penny >>>>>>>> was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and
especially the subway, who heard the entirety of testimony and >>>>>>> evidence and arguments on one side and then, oh, a dissent from
Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury decisions,
judges decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that Trump should never
have been convicted, nor even prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't
even be investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you deserve
to die. If you're white and rich, you deserve to do anything you
like.
ohferchrissake.
There's video.
Yes there is. It shows three guys to one, with Neely eventually
going limp but still having his arterial flow squeezed off. The
narration says
"That chokehold lasted about 15 minutes, even with the train stopped
at one point at the Lafayette station with the doors open." Why not
just pitch him off instead of killing him?
And the grateful eyewitness testimony from women in the car.
Sure. People get scared. I've never disputed that Neely needed to be
controlled. And almost everyone in the car stayed in the car. Hardly
a scene of terror. He did not need to be killed.
And two decidedly not Polish men who sorta almost helped.
I don't know why you're mentioning ethnicity. But it looks to me
like three able bodied men attacked Neely - perhaps justifiably -
but he didn't physically attack anyone else. He was being controlled
for a long, long while. Penny was _not_ at serious risk.
And the police report noting he was alive when they arrived but
apparently suffering drug effects so the Sergeant prudently kept
officers from starting mouth-to- mouth.
"Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” >>>> and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner
determined Wednesday afternoon."
Yes, the jury let him off. A jury let George Zimmerman off after he
shot Trayvon Martin for the crime of walking on the sidewalk while
being black. Bernhard Goetz got off after shooting four black guys
for the crime of asking him for money. I'm thinking "reasonable
doubt" seems a lot easier to establish if the victim is a black male.
(and yes, you're right; I have, as have we all, either disagreed or
screamed in disbelief at a jury verdict or two over the years.)
It was not 15 minutes. Under six.
And that is, as you know form your prior experience as written here,
not a lethal choke hold position.
https://www.policemag.com/training/article/15316003/ unlocking-the-
confusion-around-chokeholds
The Medical Examiner freely admitted her report was written after
watching the video on the news and before the toxicology report was
finished. So much for 'licensed professionals' I suppose.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys- chokehold-was-
sole- cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa- rcna179940
Mr Martin instigated the altercation and Mr Zimmerman had the bloody
scalp (with matching sidewalk where it was bashed) to prove that.
COMPLETE FUCKING BULLSHIT! Zimmerman harassed and attacked Martin.
https://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/18/new-trayvon-martin- evidence-10-
things-you-should-know/
"George Zimmerman may have been profiling black males. In the months
before the Feb. 26 shooting, George Zimmerman called the police
several times to report suspicious persons. In all of these calls, he
identified the subject as a black male. The calls were made on August
3, 4, and 6, 2011; October 6, 2011; and Feb 12, 2012."
"The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch
shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then
told them the subject was running from him. The exchange between the
dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to
follow Martin."
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo- way/2012/04/20/151039460/abc-
news- photo-shows-george- zimmerman-had-bloodied-head
oh for fucks sake andrew - yeah, they had an altercation, based solely
on the the fact that Trayvon Martin was a young black man walking in a
predominantly white neighborhood.
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? Likely not - but like all these
dumb macho motherfucker hero wannbes, he created a situation that
turned deadly.
Why is it that everytime there's an incident like this you take the
side of the white guy who kills the unarmed balck guy?
I didn't take sides. I merely pointed out that Mr Zimmerman had a
reasonable defense on the homicide charge. It was not wanton murder, and certainly not a clear incident regarding either man.
On 12/17/2024 8:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
It was not 15 minutes. Under six.
And that is, as you know form your prior experience as written here, not
a lethal choke hold position.
https://www.policemag.com/training/article/15316003/unlocking-the- confusion-around-chokeholds
The Medical Examiner freely admitted her report was written after
watching the video on the news and before the toxicology report was
finished. So much for 'licensed professionals' I suppose.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys-chokehold-was-sole- cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa-rcna179940
Mr Martin instigated the altercation and Mr Zimmerman had the bloody
scalp (with matching sidewalk where it was bashed) to prove that.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2012/04/20/151039460/abc-news- photo-shows-george-zimmerman-had-bloodied-head
oh for fucks sake andrew - yeah, they had an altercation, based solely
on the the fact that Trayvon Martin was a young black man walking in a predominantly white neighborhood.
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? Likely not - but like all these
dumb macho motherfucker hero wannbes, he created a situation that turned deadly.
Why is it that everytime there's an incident like this you take the side
of the white guy who kills the unarmed balck guy?
On 12/18/2024 10:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/18/2024 6:51 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 12/17/2024 9:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 8:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing >>>>>>>>>>> Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - let >>>>>>>>>>> alone others - could not have subdued him without killing him. >>>>>>>>>>>
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars >>>>>>>>>> for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much- money- >>>>>>>>>> in- chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd- diversion- >>>>>>>>>> centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just >>>>>>>>>> gave the funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared.
Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that Penny >>>>>>>>> was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and
especially the subway, who heard the entirety of testimony and >>>>>>>> evidence and arguments on one side and then, oh, a dissent from >>>>>>>> Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury decisions,
judges decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that Trump should never >>>>>>> have been convicted, nor even prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't
even be investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you deserve >>>>>>> to die. If you're white and rich, you deserve to do anything you >>>>>>> like.
ohferchrissake.
There's video.
Yes there is. It shows three guys to one, with Neely eventually
going limp but still having his arterial flow squeezed off. The
narration says
"That chokehold lasted about 15 minutes, even with the train
stopped at one point at the Lafayette station with the doors open."
Why not just pitch him off instead of killing him?
And the grateful eyewitness testimony from women in the car.
Sure. People get scared. I've never disputed that Neely needed to
be controlled. And almost everyone in the car stayed in the car.
Hardly a scene of terror. He did not need to be killed.
And two decidedly not Polish men who sorta almost helped.
I don't know why you're mentioning ethnicity. But it looks to me
like three able bodied men attacked Neely - perhaps justifiably -
but he didn't physically attack anyone else. He was being
controlled for a long, long while. Penny was _not_ at serious risk.
And the police report noting he was alive when they arrived but
apparently suffering drug effects so the Sergeant prudently kept
officers from starting mouth-to- mouth.
"Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck
(chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical
examiner determined Wednesday afternoon."
Yes, the jury let him off. A jury let George Zimmerman off after he
shot Trayvon Martin for the crime of walking on the sidewalk while
being black. Bernhard Goetz got off after shooting four black guys
for the crime of asking him for money. I'm thinking "reasonable
doubt" seems a lot easier to establish if the victim is a black male. >>>>>
(and yes, you're right; I have, as have we all, either disagreed
or screamed in disbelief at a jury verdict or two over the years.)
It was not 15 minutes. Under six.
And that is, as you know form your prior experience as written here,
not a lethal choke hold position.
https://www.policemag.com/training/article/15316003/ unlocking-the-
confusion-around-chokeholds
The Medical Examiner freely admitted her report was written after
watching the video on the news and before the toxicology report was
finished. So much for 'licensed professionals' I suppose.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys- chokehold-was-
sole- cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa- rcna179940
Mr Martin instigated the altercation and Mr Zimmerman had the bloody
scalp (with matching sidewalk where it was bashed) to prove that.
COMPLETE FUCKING BULLSHIT! Zimmerman harassed and attacked Martin.
https://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/18/new-trayvon-martin- evidence-10-
things-you-should-know/
"George Zimmerman may have been profiling black males. In the months
before the Feb. 26 shooting, George Zimmerman called the police
several times to report suspicious persons. In all of these calls, he
identified the subject as a black male. The calls were made on August
3, 4, and 6, 2011; October 6, 2011; and Feb 12, 2012."
"The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch
shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person,
then told them the subject was running from him. The exchange between
the dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to
continue to follow Martin."
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo- way/2012/04/20/151039460/abc-
news- photo-shows-george- zimmerman-had-bloodied-head
oh for fucks sake andrew - yeah, they had an altercation, based
solely on the the fact that Trayvon Martin was a young black man
walking in a predominantly white neighborhood.
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? Likely not - but like all these
dumb macho motherfucker hero wannbes, he created a situation that
turned deadly.
Why is it that everytime there's an incident like this you take the
side of the white guy who kills the unarmed balck guy?
I didn't take sides. I merely pointed out that Mr Zimmerman had a
reasonable defense on the homicide charge. It was not wanton murder,
and certainly not a clear incident regarding either man.
"Mr Martin instigated the altercation" is a claim not borne out by the
facts, quite the opposite actually:
"Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then told them
the subject was running from him. The exchange between the dispatcher
and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to follow Martin."
Martin didn't instigate this. If Zimmerman wasn't being a racist asshole
it would never have happened.
On 12/17/2024 9:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 8:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
It was not 15 minutes. Under six.
Apparently, accounts differ.
And that is, as you know form your prior experience as written here, not
a lethal choke hold position.
Much like covering one's face with a pillow, lethality depends on
duration. Penny applied the hold until Neely went completely limp.
https://www.policemag.com/training/article/15316003/unlocking-the-
confusion-around-chokeholds
Good article. Some quotes: "using such a technique is reserved for
deadly force situations alone."
"A blood choke involves the use of an officer's arm to apply pressure to
one or both sides of an assailant's neck ... Other names for the blood
choke include ... bilateral carotid compression..." which seems to be
what Penny used.
"The most likely consequences of the blood choke include an assailant's >immediate compliance or loss of consciousness."
"Proper training includes recognizing unconsciousness, so that chokes
are not applied any longer than necessary, especially the air choke.
Further, it is vital that officers understand that certain members of
the population are at higher risk of incurring injury or death as a
result of a chokehold."
Vigilantes get no such training. But I'm surprised a Marine wouldn't
have gotten at least a little.
The Medical Examiner freely admitted her report was written after
watching the video on the news and before the toxicology report was
finished. So much for 'licensed professionals' I suppose.
Some members of this discussion group have a long record of disparaging >licensed professionals. But I don't recall seeing any links to the
toxicology report, nor any real indication that Neely's death was caused
by drugs.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys-chokehold-was-sole-
cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa-rcna179940
I'm absolutely astonished you think that article is evidence for your >position! Harris says there's no plausible way drugs caused Neely's
death. Guys helping Penny restrain Neely said they had him controlled,
but they couldn't get Penny to release him. The only bit you seem to be >desperately grasping is that Penny's lawyer "questioned" some things.
Which every defense lawyer does, no matter how implausible the questions!
Mr Martin instigated the altercation and Mr Zimmerman had the bloody
scalp (with matching sidewalk where it was bashed) to prove that.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2012/04/20/151039460/abc-news-
photo-shows-george-zimmerman-had-bloodied-head
Oh good grief! Why not claim Martin ran up to Zimmerman's car, dragged
him out of it and pummelled him as poor George was on his way to visit
his poor ailing mother?
Zimmerman was acting as a vigilante. He had a thing about black guys in
the neighborhood. If he'd stayed home and watched TV, none of this would
have happened. He got off because he was whiter than Martin.
On 12/18/2024 11:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 12/18/2024 10:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/18/2024 6:51 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 12/17/2024 9:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 8:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 3:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 1:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2024 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2024 10:03 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The photo of Penny choking Neely shows another man grabbing >>>>>>>>>>>> Neely's arm. You can't reasonably pretend those two men - >>>>>>>>>>>> let alone others - could not have subdued him without
killing him.
OK, everyone is with you. Something must be done!
How about, for example, a billion and a half taxpayer dollars >>>>>>>>>>> for starts. Yeah that should help.
https://manhattan.institute/article/theres-too-much- money- >>>>>>>>>>> in- chirlane- mccrays-hands
https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/05/09/thrive-nyc-nypd-
diversion- centers- for-mentally-ill-sit-empty/
Former Mayor Warren Wilhelm ( stage mane 'Bill DiBlasio) just >>>>>>>>>>> gave the funds to his wife and poof! it just disappeared. >>>>>>>>>>> Neither has been indicted. Yet...
Thank you for agreeing that "something must be done."
The rest of your post has little to do with the fact that
Penny was wrong in killing Neely. That fact remains.
Hmmmm. These 12 New Yorkers, familiar with the area and
especially the subway, who heard the entirety of testimony and >>>>>>>>> evidence and arguments on one side and then, oh, a dissent from >>>>>>>>> Mr Krygowski!
:-) As if others here haven't disagreed with jury decisions, >>>>>>>> judges decisions, etc. ISTR reading here that Trump should never >>>>>>>> have been convicted, nor even prosecuted. Some say he shouldn't >>>>>>>> even be investigated.
I guess the lesson is, if you're black and not rich, you deserve >>>>>>>> to die. If you're white and rich, you deserve to do anything you >>>>>>>> like.
ohferchrissake.
There's video.
Yes there is. It shows three guys to one, with Neely eventually
going limp but still having his arterial flow squeezed off. The
narration says
"That chokehold lasted about 15 minutes, even with the train
stopped at one point at the Lafayette station with the doors
open." Why not just pitch him off instead of killing him?
And the grateful eyewitness testimony from women in the car.
Sure. People get scared. I've never disputed that Neely needed to
be controlled. And almost everyone in the car stayed in the car.
Hardly a scene of terror. He did not need to be killed.
And two decidedly not Polish men who sorta almost helped.
I don't know why you're mentioning ethnicity. But it looks to me
like three able bodied men attacked Neely - perhaps justifiably -
but he didn't physically attack anyone else. He was being
controlled for a long, long while. Penny was _not_ at serious risk. >>>>>>
And the police report noting he was alive when they arrived but
apparently suffering drug effects so the Sergeant prudently kept >>>>>>> officers from starting mouth-to- mouth.
"Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck
(chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical
examiner determined Wednesday afternoon."
Yes, the jury let him off. A jury let George Zimmerman off after
he shot Trayvon Martin for the crime of walking on the sidewalk
while being black. Bernhard Goetz got off after shooting four
black guys for the crime of asking him for money. I'm thinking
"reasonable doubt" seems a lot easier to establish if the victim
is a black male.
(and yes, you're right; I have, as have we all, either disagreed >>>>>>> or screamed in disbelief at a jury verdict or two over the years.) >>>>>>
It was not 15 minutes. Under six.
And that is, as you know form your prior experience as written
here, not a lethal choke hold position.
https://www.policemag.com/training/article/15316003/ unlocking-the-
confusion-around-chokeholds
The Medical Examiner freely admitted her report was written after
watching the video on the news and before the toxicology report was
finished. So much for 'licensed professionals' I suppose.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys- chokehold-was-
sole- cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa- rcna179940
Mr Martin instigated the altercation and Mr Zimmerman had the
bloody scalp (with matching sidewalk where it was bashed) to prove
that.
COMPLETE FUCKING BULLSHIT! Zimmerman harassed and attacked Martin.
https://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/18/new-trayvon-martin-
evidence-10- things-you-should-know/
"George Zimmerman may have been profiling black males. In the months
before the Feb. 26 shooting, George Zimmerman called the police
several times to report suspicious persons. In all of these calls,
he identified the subject as a black male. The calls were made on
August 3, 4, and 6, 2011; October 6, 2011; and Feb 12, 2012."
"The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch >>>> shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person,
then told them the subject was running from him. The exchange
between the dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not
to continue to follow Martin."
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo- way/2012/04/20/151039460/abc-
news- photo-shows-george- zimmerman-had-bloodied-head
oh for fucks sake andrew - yeah, they had an altercation, based
solely on the the fact that Trayvon Martin was a young black man
walking in a predominantly white neighborhood.
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? Likely not - but like all these
dumb macho motherfucker hero wannbes, he created a situation that
turned deadly.
Why is it that everytime there's an incident like this you take the
side of the white guy who kills the unarmed balck guy?
I didn't take sides. I merely pointed out that Mr Zimmerman had a
reasonable defense on the homicide charge. It was not wanton murder,
and certainly not a clear incident regarding either man.
"Mr Martin instigated the altercation" is a claim not borne out by the
facts, quite the opposite actually:
"Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then told them
the subject was running from him. The exchange between the dispatcher
and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to follow
Martin."
Martin didn't instigate this. If Zimmerman wasn't being a racist
asshole it would never have happened.
+1
Didn't he have a record of calling in "suspicious" guys, who all just happened to be black?
On 12/18/2024 7:51 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
oh for fucks sake andrew - yeah, they had an altercation, based solely
on the the fact that Trayvon Martin was a young black man walking in a
predominantly white neighborhood.
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? Likely not - but like all these
dumb macho motherfucker hero wannbes, he created a situation that turned
deadly.
Why is it that everytime there's an incident like this you take the side
of the white guy who kills the unarmed balck guy?
100 years ago the same tale might have involved an Italian guy walking
in a "white" neighborhood. Andrew forgets that.
On 12/10/2024 4:52 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people
to death.
Unless the average American citizen is a psychopath. Then,
yes, he would be "ordinary".
and now he can return to being ordinary,
unless Trump gives him a job.
Killing more people? Is this part of Trump's health plan?
Killing people with mental issues? I suppose it would save money.
I hope he does.
Says a lot about you.
[]'s
Not strangulation. Watch the video; perp's chest is moving
all the while. He was breathing when police arrived but
succumbed to his prior drug ingestion.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:38:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. V?zquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he
died of an overdose.
You can't die of an overdose of cannabis.... it's impossible.
However. you can die from an overdose of compression of the
throat.
On Tue Dec 10 13:13:59 2024 Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:38:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He >>>> was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. V?zquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he
died of an overdose.
You can't die of an overdose of cannabis.... it's impossible.
However. you can die from an overdose of compression of the
throat.
"THC overdose is unlikely to lead to death directly because tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) receptors are not present in the brainstem
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
You're going to upset Mr. Tricycle Rider. He hates it when reality
interferes with his personal views.
On 12/10/2024 11:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2024 9:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br>
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br>
wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and
helpless people
to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks
ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic
breakdown). He
was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt
to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues
because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a
long time
ago.
You're going to upset Mr. Tricycle Rider. He hates it when
reality interferes with his personal views.
Unlike you or I, the jury heard all the testimony and saw
all the evidence. A Manhattan jury, I might add.
You're the only man in the entire world that wants knife control.
On Tue Dec 10 13:13:59 2024 Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:38:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >> >>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens,
including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He >> >>>> was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. V?zquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he
died of an overdose.
You can't die of an overdose of cannabis.... it's impossible.
However. you can die from an overdose of compression of the
throat.
"THC overdose is unlikely to lead to death directly because tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) receptors are not present in the brainstem
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 22:51:09 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>cause of death.
wrote:
On Tue Dec 10 13:13:59 2024 Shadow wrote:"THC overdose is unlikely to lead to death directly because tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) receptors are not present in the brainstem the part of the brain that controls and regulates the heart rate and respiration therefore, it is unlikely to be a direct
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:38:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2024 8:11 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:40:20 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:04 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:17:06 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:52:45 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 17:44:15 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
Perry is an ordinary citizen
"Ordinary citizens" don't strangle unarmed and helpless people >>> >>>>>> to death.
Unless, perhaps some creep threatens and attacks ordinary citizens, >>> >>>>> including women and children.
Threat? Did Americans forget "Sticks and Stones"?
The victim shouted(as is common in a psychotic breakdown). He >>> >>>> was in no condition to harm anyone, and did not attempt to attack
anyone.
[]'s
According to witnesses, he did threaten and attack.
No. He threatened. No one was attacked.
If it was "normal" to kill people with mental issues because
they threaten other people TK would have been put down a long time
ago.
He won't be doing it again.
He won't ever shout again, because he was murdered in cold
blood.
//
Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers. V?zquez said
that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.
//
[]'s
Review the videos. He made explicit threats to kill and he
died of an overdose.
You can't die of an overdose of cannabis.... it's impossible.
However. you can die from an overdose of compression of the
throat.
However, weed overdose can cause death indirectly through its effects on the brain., For example, when a user drives under the influence of THC overdose, such person may experience incoordination, as well as impaired judgment and perception, which maypredispose them to accidents, injuries, and, in turn, death."
On 12/16/2024 9:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice mat, with
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should >>>>> have been able to do the job and control the man without killingCombat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement >>>>> officers, probably with less combat training.
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost >>>> without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why >>>> would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting."
You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious >>>> answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a
shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would
remove all danger.
adult
supervision and good will all around, were not up to being combative
after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with some actual
fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly dumber version of
Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner, and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many otherWithout handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to
the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops have also made the
news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on the floor,
he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not die. We don't
know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds ofMust get a little boring doing both sides of the conversation.
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times
that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm
very, very sure what he's going to say.
...You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last time you
“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s when you’re supposedAnd then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who
to let go,” Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave. >>>> Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a >>>> bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
restrained anyone over the age of three?
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was trainedYou seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I
think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right
now.
for
combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last resort, after
artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet, bashing with
an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with a sharp stick.
He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something -- if you
are
accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in such a way
that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured in seconds).
It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into the dirt a
bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper spray. This is
just not something that ordinary people normally train for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers and Michael
Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because
he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he
is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help
him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/16/2024 9:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice mat, with
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should >>>>>> have been able to do the job and control the man without killingCombat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement >>>>>> officers, probably with less combat training.
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost >>>>> without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why >>>>> would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting." >>>>> You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious >>>>> answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a >>>> shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would >>>> remove all danger.
adult
supervision and good will all around, were not up to being combative
after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with some actual
fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly dumber version of
Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner, and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many otherWithout handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to >>>> the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops have also made the >>> news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on the floor,
he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not die. We don't
know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds ofMust get a little boring doing both sides of the conversation.
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times >>>> that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm >>>> very, very sure what he's going to say.
...You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last time you
“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s when you’re supposedAnd then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who >>>>> should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave. >>>>> Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a >>>>> bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
to let go,” Caballer told a jury on Thursday."
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
restrained anyone over the age of three?
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was trainedYou seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I >>>> think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right >>>> now.
for
combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last resort, after
artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet, bashing with
an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with a sharp stick. >>> He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something -- if you
are
accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in such a way
that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured in seconds).
It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into the dirt a
bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper spray. This is
just not something that ordinary people normally train for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30 years old, who threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an opponent. It
was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a person for
weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed to develop,
and therefore don't have.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers and Michael
Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because
he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he
is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help
him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never tried to tie
a person up, even in fun. It's not that easy to prevent someone from escaping without injuring him. Appropriate cordage and experience are required, it's not something you can figure out as needed, in the middle
of a fight in a subway car. On the other hand, a good roll of
electrical tape or a few large size zip ties would have worked.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
I showed up for jury duty this past Monday, was introduced to the
defendant, the witnesses, the lawyers. Sworn in, but not actually
selected. Makes a person think a bit.
It's true that had Mr. Penny more training and experience in controlling criminal suspects that Mr. Neely's death might have been averted. Like
most people, neither you nor I have sought out such training. Why
should we expect him to do so?
It's also true that had Mr. Neely not tried to shake down a subway car
by threats of violence that his death would have been just as well
averted.
An unfortunate series of events all around.
I don't mind a bit of busking or even panhandling, but angry dudes
saying "I will kill" is beyond the pale. Subway riders should be able
to travel in peace and without fear.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/16/2024 9:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice mat, with
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should >>>>>> have been able to do the job and control the man without killingCombat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of
him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement >>>>>> officers, probably with less combat training.
holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost >>>>> without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine
hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why >>>>> would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude,
rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting." >>>>> You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When
the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious >>>>> answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and
neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are
in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a >>>> shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would >>>> remove all danger.
adult
supervision and good will all around, were not up to being combative
after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with some actual
fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly dumber version of
Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner, and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many otherWithout handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a
Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to >>>> the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops have also made the >>> news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on the floor,
he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not die. We don't
know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds ofMust get a little boring doing both sides of the conversation.
times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times >>>> that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm >>>> very, very sure what he's going to say.
...You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last time you
Once the person is rendered unconscious, thats when youre supposed >>>>>> to let go, Caballer told a jury on Thursday."And then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who >>>>> should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave. >>>>> Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a >>>>> bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
restrained anyone over the age of three?
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was trainedYou seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I >>>> think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white
CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right >>>> now.
for
combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last resort, after
artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet, bashing with
an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with a sharp stick. >>> He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something -- if you
are
accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in such a way
that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured in seconds).
It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into the dirt a
bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper spray. This is
just not something that ordinary people normally train for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30 years old, who >threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an opponent. It
was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a person for
weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed to develop,
and therefore don't have.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers and Michael
Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because
he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he
is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help
him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never tried to tie
a person up, even in fun. It's not that easy to prevent someone from >escaping without injuring him. Appropriate cordage and experience are >required, it's not something you can figure out as needed, in the middle
of a fight in a subway car. On the other hand, a good roll of
electrical tape or a few large size zip ties would have worked.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
I showed up for jury duty this past Monday, was introduced to the
defendant, the witnesses, the lawyers. Sworn in, but not actually
selected. Makes a person think a bit.
It's true that had Mr. Penny more training and experience in controlling >criminal suspects that Mr. Neely's death might have been averted. Like
most people, neither you nor I have sought out such training. Why
should we expect him to do so?
It's also true that had Mr. Neely not tried to shake down a subway car
by threats of violence that his death would have been just as well
averted.
An unfortunate series of events all around.
I don't mind a bit of busking or even panhandling, but angry dudes
saying "I will kill" is beyond the pale. Subway riders should be able
to travel in peace and without fear.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 17:00:58 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 12/20/2024 3:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/16/2024 9:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 12/11/2024 4:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I am quite serious. It may be that you, lying on a nice mat, with
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Penny was a Marine trained to use the technique I described. He should >>>>>>>> have been able to do the job and control the man without killing >>>>>>>> him. Controlling violent men is done all the time by law enforcement >>>>>>>> officers, probably with less combat training.Combat is not the same as policing, which has its own repertoire of >>>>>>> holding techniques. Even trained cops likely find themselves a bit lost
without handcuffs and the promise of backup. I doubt that Marine >>>>>>> hand-to-hand training includes much in long term restraint holds. Why >>>>>>> would it? The main object is physical fitness and mental attitude, >>>>>>> rather than any likely application on the battlefield.
You suggest that Mr. Penny could have done
"When the guy winks out, release pressure. He won't be fighting." >>>>>>> You have absolutely no experience in that sort of technique. When >>>>>>> the
guy wakes up, what does one do? He's likely to be disoriented,
combative, and possibly dangerous. Choking him out again is the obvious
answer, but, does doing that risk killing him? I have no idea and >>>>>>> neither do you. Very likely neither did Mr. Penny.
You can't be serious! I _do_ have experience with the carotid
restriction technique, and when a person is coming out of it they are >>>>>> in no condition to be combative or dangerous. Something as simple as a >>>>>> shoelace on a guy's wrists would and/or a belt around his ankles would >>>>>> remove all danger.
adult
supervision and good will all around, were not up to being combative >>>>> after being choked. Try it on a nasty subway floor, with some actual >>>>> fear and loathing, not to mention mental illness and who knows what
drugs. Everyone in the world is not just a slightly dumber version of >>>>> Frank Krygowski, some really are a lot tougher, meaner, and even
sneakier.
One of my very best friends was a beat cop (and I know many otherWithout handcuffs? Bullshit on that. Cops use tools, cop
cops) then a professor of Criminal Justice and a board member of a >>>>>> Police Academy. He told me tales of his days hustling perps on foot to >>>>>> the police station while controlling them, no gun involved. But a
marine couldn't control this guy as he lay on the floor,
semiconscious? Bullshit.
technique,
and a lot of teamwork to subdue suspected perps. Cops have also made the >>>>> news when they choke someone who then dies.
Mr. Penny obviously could control Mr. Neely as he lay on the floor,
he
just couldn't do it in such a way that Mr. Neely did not die. We don't >>>>> know that anyone could have.
And let's note that cops successfully control perps many hundreds of >>>>>> times per day across the U.S. without killing them. The very few times >>>>>> that the perp is killed justifiably cause horror.Must get a little boring doing both sides of the conversation.
Admittedly, I haven't yet talked to my friend about this case, but I'm >>>>>> very, very sure what he's going to say.
...You have no idea what you don't know. When was the last time you
Once the person is rendered unconscious, thats when youre supposed >>>>>>>> to let go, Caballer told a jury on Thursday."And then? In competition it's easy, you look up at the referee, who >>>>>>> should be paying attention. On the street, ordinarily one should leave.
Confined in a subway car with those you're trying to protect? That's a >>>>>>> bit of a puzzle if you think about it.
It's not a puzzle. It can't possibly be a puzzle for a reasonably
intelligent man trained as Penny was in combat.
restrained anyone over the age of three?
Mr. Penny had no police training as far as I know. He was trainedYou seem to think that Mr. Penny deliberately killed; even the
prosecutor did not agree with you on that.
No, I think Penny screwed up royally and killed him due to
incompetence when his training should have given him competence. And I >>>>>> think that if he had done the same thing to a multimillionaire white >>>>>> CEO of a huge insurance company, he's be in jail for a long time right >>>>>> now.
for
combat, in which unarmed fighting is absolutely the last resort, after >>>>> artillery, rifle fire, grenades, stabbing with a bayonet, bashing with >>>>> an entrenching tool, smashing with a rock, or poking with a sharp stick. >>>>> He probably did some competitive jiu-jitsu or something -- if you
are
accustomed to wrestling, or judo, or jiu-jitsu, you train a lot in
putting your opponent on his back and holding him down in such a way >>>>> that you win (rules differ, but times are always measured in seconds). >>>>> It's a good athletic goal, hard to do, but it's not like what cops
do, which is to get the suspect prone, grind his face into the dirt a >>>>> bit, and then apply handcuffs, or a taser, or pepper spray. This is >>>>> just not something that ordinary people normally train for. You
certainly have not, and being a nodding acquaintance of a few cops
doesn't give you any special insights.
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30 years old, who >>> threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an opponent. It >>> was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a person for
weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed to develop,
and therefore don't have.
(I'm having fun visualizing the Venn diagram of murderers and Michael
Jackson impersonators.)
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because >>>> he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he
is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help >>>> him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never tried to tie
a person up, even in fun. It's not that easy to prevent someone from
escaping without injuring him. Appropriate cordage and experience are
required, it's not something you can figure out as needed, in the middle >>> of a fight in a subway car. On the other hand, a good roll of
electrical tape or a few large size zip ties would have worked.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
I showed up for jury duty this past Monday, was introduced to the
defendant, the witnesses, the lawyers. Sworn in, but not actually
selected. Makes a person think a bit.
It's true that had Mr. Penny more training and experience in controlling >>> criminal suspects that Mr. Neely's death might have been averted. Like
most people, neither you nor I have sought out such training. Why
should we expect him to do so?
It's also true that had Mr. Neely not tried to shake down a subway car
by threats of violence that his death would have been just as well
averted.
An unfortunate series of events all around.
I don't mind a bit of busking or even panhandling, but angry dudes
saying "I will kill" is beyond the pale. Subway riders should be able
to travel in peace and without fear.
All good points, substantiated on the subway today as just
reported:
https://nypost.com/2024/12/19/us-news/dr-phil-witnesses-tense-homeless-altercation-while-touring-nyc-subway-with-mayor-eric-adams/
Just a little more context from the overnight Post:
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/12/www-instagram-com-reel-dcmrpcmxpvq-94877590_265107.jpg?quality=75&strip=all
I suggest that as no one here actually knows anything at all about
military training, or what actually happened in the train car, that
the best solution is to accept the findings of the court.,
To condemn someone because of what they read on the Internet is akin
to accepting Tom's arguments as reality.
On 12/20/2024 4:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an
uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would
have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being
nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30
years old, who
threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of
it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an
opponent. It
was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a
person for
weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed
to develop,
and therefore don't have.
Yeah, Neely could have spun around, pulled out a knife, and
stabbed Penny in the heart before Penny could react. Despite
being unconscious and limp. Despite having two other adult
men helping to restrain him.
Sorry, I don't find that plausible. Again, there's a pretty
wide margin between "incapacitated" and "dying." Neely could
have stopped at any point in that space, as the other men
were trying to convince him to do. And I'll note, they
_were_ there seeing things happen first hand.
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a
bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice,
retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in
part because
he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a
sailor. But he
is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others
available to help
him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held
Neely under
control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never
tried to tie
a person up, even in fun.
Please do tell us about your extensive experience with this
problem!
Again, the friend I talked to was a beat cop. He has
described - not only during my recent visit - "frog
marching" an aggressive drunk down the sidewalk to the
police station. He absolutely thinks Neely was not a threat
to Penny, and once restrained, not a threat to anyone else.
Because of his background, he tends to have strong interest
in cases like this.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is
nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an
unnecessary death.
On 12/20/2024 4:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable
demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30 years old, who
threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an opponent. It
was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a person for
weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed to develop,
and therefore don't have.
Yeah, Neely could have spun around, pulled out a knife, and stabbed
Penny in the heart before Penny could react. Despite being unconscious
and limp. Despite having two other adult men helping to restrain him.
Sorry, I don't find that plausible. Again, there's a pretty wide margin >between "incapacitated" and "dying." Neely could have stopped at any
point in that space, as the other men were trying to convince him to do.
And I'll note, they _were_ there seeing things happen first hand.
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again,
former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board
member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because
he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he
is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help
him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never tried to tie
a person up, even in fun.
Please do tell us about your extensive experience with this problem!
Again, the friend I talked to was a beat cop. He has described - not
only during my recent visit - "frog marching" an aggressive drunk down
the sidewalk to the police station. He absolutely thinks Neely was not a >threat to Penny, and once restrained, not a threat to anyone else.
Because of his background, he tends to have strong interest in cases
like this.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 05:08:13 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 20:50:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 12/20/2024 4:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable >>>>> demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30 years old, who >>>> threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an opponent. It >>>> was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a person for
weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed to develop, >>>> and therefore don't have.
Yeah, Neely could have spun around, pulled out a knife, and stabbed
Penny in the heart before Penny could react. Despite being unconscious >>>and limp. Despite having two other adult men helping to restrain him.
Sorry, I don't find that plausible. Again, there's a pretty wide margin >>>between "incapacitated" and "dying." Neely could have stopped at any >>>point in that space, as the other men were trying to convince him to do. >>>And I'll note, they _were_ there seeing things happen first hand.
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again, >>>>> former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board >>>>> member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because >>>>> he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he >>>>> is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help >>>>> him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never tried to tie >>>> a person up, even in fun.
Please do tell us about your extensive experience with this problem!
Again, the friend I talked to was a beat cop. He has described - not
only during my recent visit - "frog marching" an aggressive drunk down >>>the sidewalk to the police station. He absolutely thinks Neely was not a >>>threat to Penny, and once restrained, not a threat to anyone else. >>>Because of his background, he tends to have strong interest in cases
like this.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
Too bad your "friend" wasn't on the jury so you could have seen and
heard all the evidence instead of just what the talking heads on
liberal TV told you.
:-) My father's younger sister, my aunt, was married to a deputy
sheriff and I spent some time with Air Force M.P.'S and both
emphasized that standard policy was that anyone arrested or even just
held for investigation of any possibly aggressive act was "secured"
with handcuffs, or even hand and leg cuffs. Not, as Frankie seems to
imply, just lead to the station. By hand?
In fact Tom has witted a complaint the police handcuffed him and he
spent some time sitting his front lawn solely because the Cops
discovered he possessed a pistol.
It's interesting to note that Krygowski's nonsense about people
reacting out of "excessive fear" followed his absurd claim that it
was dangerous to simply have a gun in his home.
When he was going on about that I did mention that my family had
firearms in the house for three generations with no problems.
He never replied :-)
On 12/21/2024 7:16 AM, John B. wrote:
It's interesting to note that Krygowski's nonsense about
people
reacting out of "excessive fear" followed his absurd
claim that it
was dangerous to simply have a gun in his home.
When he was going on about that I did mention that my
family had
firearms in the house for three generations with no
problems.
He never replied :-)
<sigh> Wrong again, John. I certainly did reply. You've
forgotten - and probably deliberately. You often make the
same statements over and over, _pretending_ they've never
been rebutted.
Your family's firearms experience is an anecdote. I linked
data summarizing the firearms experience of thousands of
families.
One or a few anecdotes do not disprove reams of data. Sorry,
but that's science.
On 12/21/2024 7:16 AM, John B. wrote:
It's interesting to note that Krygowski's nonsense about people
reacting out of "excessive fear" followed his absurd claim that it
was dangerous to simply have a gun in his home.
When he was going on about that I did mention that my family had
firearms in the house for three generations with no problems.
He never replied :-)
<sigh> Wrong again, John. I certainly did reply. You've forgotten - and >probably deliberately. You often make the same statements over and over, >_pretending_ they've never been rebutted.
Your family's firearms experience is an anecdote. I linked data
summarizing the firearms experience of thousands of families.
One or a few anecdotes do not disprove reams of data. Sorry, but that's >science.
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 05:08:13 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 20:50:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 12/20/2024 4:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable >>>>> demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered
the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30 years old, who >>>> threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an opponent. It >>>> was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a person for
weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed to develop, >>>> and therefore don't have.
Yeah, Neely could have spun around, pulled out a knife, and stabbed
Penny in the heart before Penny could react. Despite being unconscious >>>and limp. Despite having two other adult men helping to restrain him.
Sorry, I don't find that plausible. Again, there's a pretty wide margin >>>between "incapacitated" and "dying." Neely could have stopped at any >>>point in that space, as the other men were trying to convince him to do. >>>And I'll note, they _were_ there seeing things happen first hand.
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again, >>>>> former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board >>>>> member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because >>>>> he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he >>>>> is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help >>>>> him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under
control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never tried to tie >>>> a person up, even in fun.
Please do tell us about your extensive experience with this problem!
Again, the friend I talked to was a beat cop. He has described - not
only during my recent visit - "frog marching" an aggressive drunk down >>>the sidewalk to the police station. He absolutely thinks Neely was not a >>>threat to Penny, and once restrained, not a threat to anyone else. >>>Because of his background, he tends to have strong interest in cases
like this.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is
like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death.
Too bad your "friend" wasn't on the jury so you could have seen and
heard all the evidence instead of just what the talking heads on
liberal TV told you.
:-) My father's younger sister, my aunt, was married to a deputy
sheriff and I spent some time with Air Force M.P.'S and both
emphasized that standard policy was that anyone arrested or even just
held for investigation of any possibly aggressive act was "secured"
with handcuffs, or even hand and leg cuffs. Not, as Frankie seems to
imply, just lead to the station. By hand?
In fact Tom has witted a complaint the police handcuffed him and he
spent some time sitting his front lawn solely because the Cops
discovered he possessed a pistol.
On 12/21/2024 7:16 AM, John B. wrote:
It's interesting to note that Krygowski's nonsense about peopleWhen he was going on about that I did mention that my family had
reacting out of "excessive fear" followed his absurd claim that it
was dangerous to simply have a gun in his home.
firearms in the house for three generations with no problems.
He never replied :-)
<sigh> Wrong again, John. I certainly did reply. You've forgotten -
and probably deliberately. You often make the same statements over and
over, _pretending_ they've never been rebutted.
Your family's firearms experience is an anecdote. I linked data
summarizing the firearms experience of thousands of families.
One or a few anecdotes do not disprove reams of data. Sorry, but
that's science.
On 12/21/2024 4:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 05:08:13 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 20:50:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 12/20/2024 4:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:Too bad your "friend" wasn't on the jury so you could have seen and
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
I see you're going to hold on to your fantasies of an uncontrollable >>>>>>> demon (_and_ Michael Jackson impersonator!) who would have murdered >>>>>>> the moment an ex-Marine loosened his grip, despite being nearly
unconscious.
Mr. Neely was not a baby nor a child but an adult man, 30 years old, who >>>>>> threatened violence and looked as though he was capable of it. I
suspect the Marines teach a person not to underestimate an opponent. It >>>>>> was certainly possible that he was armed -- searching a person for >>>>>> weapons is another skill that most of us have never needed to develop, >>>>>> and therefore don't have.
Yeah, Neely could have spun around, pulled out a knife, and stabbed
Penny in the heart before Penny could react. Despite being unconscious >>>>> and limp. Despite having two other adult men helping to restrain him. >>>>>
Sorry, I don't find that plausible. Again, there's a pretty wide margin >>>>> between "incapacitated" and "dying." Neely could have stopped at any >>>>> point in that space, as the other men were trying to convince him to do. >>>>> And I'll note, they _were_ there seeing things happen first hand.
I did talk to my friend Saturday night and discuss this a bit. Again, >>>>>>> former beat cop, retired professor of criminal justice, retired board >>>>>>> member of the local police academy. I won't quote him, in part because >>>>>>> he's also a retired Navy submariner and swears like a sailor. But he >>>>>>> is absolutely not on the side of Penny.
Keep in mind that Penny was not alone. He had others available to help >>>>>>> him. As I said, a shoelace and a belt could have held Neely under >>>>>>> control once released.
A shoelace? That's just silly. I can tell you have never tried to tie >>>>>> a person up, even in fun.
Please do tell us about your extensive experience with this problem! >>>>>
Again, the friend I talked to was a beat cop. He has described - not >>>>> only during my recent visit - "frog marching" an aggressive drunk down >>>>> the sidewalk to the police station. He absolutely thinks Neely was not a >>>>> threat to Penny, and once restrained, not a threat to anyone else.
Because of his background, he tends to have strong interest in cases >>>>> like this.
Penny's "I was in a very vulnerable position" is nonsense. This is >>>>>>> like other examples of excessive fear leading to an unnecessary death. >>>>
heard all the evidence instead of just what the talking heads on
liberal TV told you.
:-) My father's younger sister, my aunt, was married to a deputy
sheriff and I spent some time with Air Force M.P.'S and both
emphasized that standard policy was that anyone arrested or even just
held for investigation of any possibly aggressive act was "secured"
with handcuffs, or even hand and leg cuffs. Not, as Frankie seems to
imply, just lead to the station. By hand?
In fact Tom has witted a complaint the police handcuffed him and he
spent some time sitting his front lawn solely because the Cops
discovered he possessed a pistol.
I don't believe "frog marched", unless the suspect was handcuffed,
either. I don't believe anyone has been "marched" more than a few feet
to a US police station in the last 40 years or so. If they're on foot
the police always call for a vehicle.
I would be curious to see any news or police reports of this happening.
Several people here have a handy attempt at rebuttal that they use at
the drop of a hat: "I just don't believe it."
My ex-cop friend is actually older than I am by a good amount. I don't
know the exact years he was a beat cop, but I suspect it was in the
early 1960s. He told me some of those stories years ago, when we were
just discussing his work history and his experiences as a cop. He
repeated one of them the other day when I asked him about them in
relation to the Penny case.
If you choose to disbelieve his anecdotes, or any anecdote that
conflicts with your cherished beliefs, there's nothing I can do to
convince you of their truth. You'll just continue covering your ears.
So can we find some data?
What percentage of people restrained by opponents in a bar fight or
other non-police altercation die as a result? I can't find any data, and
I can find almost no anecdotes. It appears to be very rare, too rare to >study.
What percentage of people restrained by police die as a result? Cops
restrain many thousands of people each year.
Google's AI says "According to available data, the percentage of people
who die after being restrained by police is considered very small, with >estimates suggesting that only a fraction of a percent of those
restrained by police actually die as a result, although the exact number
is difficult to pinpoint due to limited comprehensive data; an
Associated Press investigation found over 1,000 deaths related to police >restraint over a decade, representing a small fraction of the total
number of people restrained by police each year."
Further sources list injection of tranquilizers by cops as causing many
of the deaths. Multiple taser shots are another big cause. Penny used
neither of those on Neely.
And lets remember that the guys helping to restrain Neely tried to get
Penny to let him go. They were there. and they thought Neely was no
longer dangerous - if he ever was.
Now if you've got some data showing what happened to Neely is common -
i.e. "accidentally" getting killed by someone just trying to control a
person - I'd like to see it.
On 12/21/2024 9:06 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 13:20:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 12/21/2024 7:16 AM, John B. wrote:
It's interesting to note that Krygowski's nonsense about people
reacting out of "excessive fear" followed his absurd claim that it
was dangerous to simply have a gun in his home.
When he was going on about that I did mention that my family had
firearms in the house for three generations with no problems.
He never replied :-)
<sigh> Wrong again, John. I certainly did reply. You've forgotten - and
probably deliberately. You often make the same statements over and over, >>> _pretending_ they've never been rebutted.
Your family's firearms experience is an anecdote. I linked data
summarizing the firearms experience of thousands of families.
One or a few anecdotes do not disprove reams of data. Sorry, but that's
science.
Science? I actually read the details of one study - they carefully
studied certain specific neighborhoods and carefully avoid any other
neighborhoods out side the study area.
??? At least one of the papers I cited said exactly the opposite! They
took pains to avoid confounding from different neighborhood
characteristics!
"Finally, in measuring homicide risks, when we compared people who were >living with handgun owners to people who were not, the comparisons were >always made between people residing in the same neighborhood. This
approach helped ensure that local conditions, like crime rates and
economic conditions, had minimal impact on our calculations."
Come on, John! You can be honest when you try. I've seen you do it.
Krygowski continues to argue that correlation implies causation.
On 12/22/2024 4:01 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
Krygowski continues to argue that correlation implies causation.
Correlation implies that F=m*a
It implies that E=i*R
Correlation implies that long exposure to high noise levels causes loss
of hearing. That decades of smoking increases one's chance of lung
cancer. That years of zero exercise increase one's chance of
cardiovascular disease.
I hear no logical objections to those conclusions - probably because
they don't conflict with the fetishes of posters in this forum.
Conor McGregorOn Sun, 22 Dec 2024 15:48:41 -0500, Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Dec 2024 14:27:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 12/22/2024 4:01 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
Krygowski continues to argue that correlation implies causation.
Correlation implies that F=m*a
It implies that E=i*R
Correlation implies that long exposure to high noise levels causes loss
of hearing. That decades of smoking increases one's chance of lung
cancer. That years of zero exercise increase one's chance of
cardiovascular disease.
I hear no logical objections to those conclusions - probably because
they don't conflict with the fetishes of posters in this forum.
Oh, look, Dimwitted Krygowski says. Often cause and effect situations
do correlate, therefore correlation implies causation.
Logic is not Krygowski's strong suit.
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