On 8/22/2024 5:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
... Europe is generally more mobile phone focused.
Yes, I think that's always been so. Europe is far more compact than the
U.S., and with much more typical population density.
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store
of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
On Thu Aug 22 20:02:16 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2024 5:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
... Europe is generally more mobile phone focused.
Yes, I think that's always been so. Europe is far more compact than the
U.S., and with much more typical population density.
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech
support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store
of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
This has been largely changed since everyone's phones are now made in China.
On Thu Aug 22 20:02:16 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2024 5:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
... Europe is generally more mobile phone focused.
Yes, I think that's always been so. Europe is far more compact than the
U.S., and with much more typical population density.
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech
support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store
of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
This has been largely changed since everyone's phones are now made in China.
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a >paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the >frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store
of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech
support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store
of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets" <https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If he had a flip phone it likely wasn't GSM compatible, and it was
likely before 4G became the standard. I'm guessing it wasn't a
programming issue, but basic compataabilty of trying to use a CDMA phone
on a GSM network.
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.? The
phone was fine at home.
Again, I thought it was fundamentally a frequency issue, that at the
time Europe used two bands but U.S. used two other bands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
Not that it mattered. It wasn't a curable problem, so we just got by
without the phone.
On 1/7/2025 3:04 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Thu Aug 22 20:02:16 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2024 5:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
... Europe is generally more mobile phone focused.
Yes, I think that's always been so. Europe is far more compact than the
U.S., and with much more typical population density.
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
This has been largely changed since everyone's phones are now made in China.
Mine was made on Western Avenue in Chicago:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/princess.jpg
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continentalApproximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called >>>> AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes. >>>
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.? The
phone was fine at home.
Again, I thought it was fundamentally a frequency issue, that at the
time Europe used two bands but U.S. used two other bands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
My Nokia phone would worked in NewYork some point after 2001 and would have been GSM only, likewise it worked in Australia and other countries I
visited.
America choose unwisely really!
Roger Merriman
Not that it mattered. It wasn't a curable problem, so we just got by
without the phone.
On 1/8/2025 1:11 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental >>>>> Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called >>>>> AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>>>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the >>>>> frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>>>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the >>>>> tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes. >>>>
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.? The
phone was fine at home.
Again, I thought it was fundamentally a frequency issue, that at the
time Europe used two bands but U.S. used two other bands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
My Nokia phone would worked in NewYork some point after 2001 and would have >> been GSM only, likewise it worked in Australia and other countries I
visited.
America choose unwisely really!
Roger Merriman
Not that it mattered. It wasn't a curable problem, so we just got by
without the phone.
Different protocols are often neither good nor bad. Beta vs
VHS for example. Someone wins and someone loses, not always
for technical reasons.
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 1/8/2025 1:11 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:Beta was I believe technically superior but didn’t get the market share, considering how behind US phone tech was generally I’d be surprised if GSM wasn’t in this case technically better, though both have been switched off the networks by now.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental >>>>>> Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called >>>>>> AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>>>>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the >>>>>> frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>>>>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the >>>>>> tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!" >>>>>>
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes. >>>>>
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets> >>>>>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it >>>>> didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.? The
phone was fine at home.
Again, I thought it was fundamentally a frequency issue, that at the
time Europe used two bands but U.S. used two other bands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
My Nokia phone would worked in NewYork some point after 2001 and would have >>> been GSM only, likewise it worked in Australia and other countries I
visited.
America choose unwisely really!
Roger Merriman
Not that it mattered. It wasn't a curable problem, so we just got by
without the phone.
Different protocols are often neither good nor bad. Beta vs
VHS for example. Someone wins and someone loses, not always
for technical reasons.
Roger Merriman
Beta was I believe technically superior but didn’t get the market share,
considering how behind US phone tech was generally I’d be surprised if GSM >wasn’t in this case technically better, though both have been switched off >the networks by now.
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.?
The phone was fine at home.
Again, I thought it was fundamentally a frequency issue, that at the
time Europe used two bands but U.S. used two other bands. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies
Not that it mattered. It wasn't a curable problem, so we just got by
without the phone.
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 23:01:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
OK, no maker and model of flip phone. So, I have to guess. 2007
would probably be a 3G phone. LTE was initially introduced in 2009
with a fairly small number of cell sites. By about 2009, there were sufficient LTE sites available to offer service in metro areas.
Anyway, with an AT&T phone made before 2007, my best guess(tm) would
be it was a 3G phone using GSM, GPRS or EDGE. I'm not sure this will
help, but it does show some of the possibilities: <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Cellular_network_standards_and_generation_timeline.svg>
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.?
Maybe. I used "defective", as in electrically broken. Is that what
you meant by "bad"? The SIM could be setup for the correct protocol,
but the wrong frequency bands, system ID, etc. It only takes one
programming error, and it won't work or do something strange.
Similarly, it also could be a provisioning error at the cellular
providers end. Only one way to do it right, but plenty of ways to do
it wrong.
The phone was fine at home.
I assume that means it was fine using the original USA SIM and not the European SIM.
On 8 Jan 2025 18:08:00 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Beta was I believe technically superior but didnÂ’t get the market share,
"Why didn't Betamax become the standard for videotape like VHS did?" <https://qr.ae/pY2cwu>
See first answer.
Betamax initially had the better looking picture. Everything else was
equal or worse compared to VHS. For example, Beta tapes were 60
minutes (or 90 minutes with thin tape) while VHS were 120 minutes (or
160 minutes with thin tape.
The big problem with Betamax was that Sony was inept and greedy. They
owned Beta and wanted to be the exclusive supplier of Beta products.
Both Beta and VHS were licensed by Sony and JVC respectively, the
license fees and terms were very different. In general, it was
difficult for manufacturers to obtain licenses from Sony. So, lacking
any other alternatives, everyone went to JVC instead of Sony. Sony
also demanded licenses for blank tape carts and rewinders. After
chasing away almost all their potential licensees, Sony was left
wondering what went wrong.
considering how behind US phone tech was generally IÂ’d be surprised if GSM >> wasnÂ’t in this case technically better, though both have been switched off >> the networks by now.
Both what? GSM and CDMA?
I can write a rather technical comparison between GSM, CSMA, LTE (and
maybe 5G) that nobody here will understand. Instead, I'll just point
out that the technical reasons for changing protocols is are usually
about spectrum efficiency, which is a measure of how many users per
MHz can the cellular provider send out bills, without having to buy
more bandwidth from the FCC (and expensive proposition).
"Spectral efficiency" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_efficiency#Comparison_table>
On 1/8/2025 7:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 23:01:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental >>>>> Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called >>>>> AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>>>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the >>>>> frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>>>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the >>>>> tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes. >>>>
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
OK, no maker and model of flip phone. So, I have to guess. 2007
would probably be a 3G phone. LTE was initially introduced in 2009
with a fairly small number of cell sites. By about 2009, there were
sufficient LTE sites available to offer service in metro areas.
Anyway, with an AT&T phone made before 2007, my best guess(tm) would
be it was a 3G phone using GSM, GPRS or EDGE. I'm not sure this will
help, but it does show some of the possibilities:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Cellular_network_standards_and_generation_timeline.svg>
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.?
Maybe. I used "defective", as in electrically broken. Is that what
you meant by "bad"? The SIM could be setup for the correct protocol,
but the wrong frequency bands, system ID, etc. It only takes one
programming error, and it won't work or do something strange.
Similarly, it also could be a provisioning error at the cellular
providers end. Only one way to do it right, but plenty of ways to do
it wrong.
The phone was fine at home.
I assume that means it was fine using the original USA SIM and not the
European SIM.
It never got a European SIM. Understand, back in those days I knew approximately nothing about cell phones. The phone was my wife's, used
almost entirely for her job. I may not have known what a SIM card was.
As I said, AT&T promised the phone would work perfectly as is. The
European cell phone store staff told me it could never work.
Ah well. It's all electrons over the dam now.
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech
support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store
of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets" <https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network.
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On 8 Jan 2025 18:08:00 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:Didn’t they do that with DVD’s as well! Or am i misremembering?
Beta was I believe technically superior but didn?t get the market share,
"Why didn't Betamax become the standard for videotape like VHS did?"
<https://qr.ae/pY2cwu>
See first answer.
Betamax initially had the better looking picture. Everything else was
equal or worse compared to VHS. For example, Beta tapes were 60
minutes (or 90 minutes with thin tape) while VHS were 120 minutes (or
160 minutes with thin tape.
The big problem with Betamax was that Sony was inept and greedy. They
owned Beta and wanted to be the exclusive supplier of Beta products.
Both Beta and VHS were licensed by Sony and JVC respectively, the
license fees and terms were very different. In general, it was
difficult for manufacturers to obtain licenses from Sony. So, lacking
any other alternatives, everyone went to JVC instead of Sony. Sony
also demanded licenses for blank tape carts and rewinders. After
chasing away almost all their potential licensees, Sony was left
wondering what went wrong.
considering how behind US phone tech was generally I?d be surprised if GSM >>> wasn?t in this case technically better, though both have been switched off >>> the networks by now.
Both what? GSM and CDMA?
I believe both aren’t used anymore by phone networks at least?
Am 07.01.2025 um 22:46 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental
Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called
AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the
frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the
tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes.
Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network.
Many European country regulators decided to postpone 2G shutdown
indefinitely due to the large number IoT entities using it (I find it >interesting to see from your link that France went the opposite way of >shutting down 2G and keeping alive 3G).
However, by disallowing new installations, operators with no active
customers can sunset their IoT network earlier.
I think the issue wasn't a bad/misprogrammed SIM, it was basic network >compatibility. An old analog CDMA phone wasn't going to work on a
European GSM network regardless of the ability of anyone who may have >replaced the SIM card (which wasn't done).
I'm willing to bet the phone
didn't have the hardware to support GSM even if they gave him a new SIM.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2025 06:42:48 -0500, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
I think the issue wasn't a bad/misprogrammed SIM, it was basic network
compatibility. An old analog CDMA phone wasn't going to work on a
European GSM network regardless of the ability of anyone who may have
replaced the SIM card (which wasn't done).
Ummm... analog 1G phones didn't have SIM cards. CDMA was spread
spectrum digital.
I'm willing to bet the phone
didn't have the hardware to support GSM even if they gave him a new SIM.
That's another reason I wanted to know the maker and model number of
the flip phone.
I'll get back to this later.
On 1/9/2025 11:19 AM, cyclintom wrote:
On Tue Jan 7 23:03:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/7/2025 4:04 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Thu Aug 22 20:02:16 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
.....
My post was made August 22 of last year. Thanks for working on this
problem for so many months!  ;-)
So you don't think that anyone should comment on your postings? That
you are so smart that your thinking stands unimpeded?
:-)Â Post away, Tom!
It's just funny that it took you almost five months to think of what to
say.
On 1/9/2025 2:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2025 06:42:48 -0500, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
I think the issue wasn't a bad/misprogrammed SIM, it was basic network
compatibility. An old analog CDMA phone wasn't going to work on a
European GSM network regardless of the ability of anyone who may have
replaced the SIM card (which wasn't done).
Ummm... analog 1G phones didn't have SIM cards. CDMA was spread
spectrum digital.
Yes, I conflated AMPS with CDMA. My bad.
I'm willing to bet the phone
didn't have the hardware to support GSM even if they gave him a new SIM.
That's another reason I wanted to know the maker and model number of
the flip phone.
I'll get back to this later.
On 1/9/2025 11:51 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/9/2025 11:19 AM, cyclintom wrote:
On Tue Jan 7 23:03:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/7/2025 4:04 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Thu Aug 22 20:02:16 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
.....
My post was made August 22 of last year. Thanks for working on this
problem for so many months! ;-)
So you don't think that anyone should comment on your postings? That
you are so smart that your thinking stands unimpeded?
:-) Post away, Tom!
It's just funny that it took you almost five months to think of what to say.
It's more of an indication that he has no life and wastes his time
digging up 5 month old threads.
On 9 Jan 2025 12:50:24 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On 8 Jan 2025 18:08:00 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:Didn?t they do that with DVD?s as well! Or am i misremembering?
Beta was I believe technically superior but didn?t get the market share, >>"Why didn't Betamax become the standard for videotape like VHS did?"
<https://qr.ae/pY2cwu>
See first answer.
Betamax initially had the better looking picture. Everything else was
equal or worse compared to VHS. For example, Beta tapes were 60
minutes (or 90 minutes with thin tape) while VHS were 120 minutes (or
160 minutes with thin tape.
The big problem with Betamax was that Sony was inept and greedy. They
owned Beta and wanted to be the exclusive supplier of Beta products.
Both Beta and VHS were licensed by Sony and JVC respectively, the
license fees and terms were very different. In general, it was
difficult for manufacturers to obtain licenses from Sony. So, lacking
any other alternatives, everyone went to JVC instead of Sony. Sony
also demanded licenses for blank tape carts and rewinders. After
chasing away almost all their potential licensees, Sony was left
wondering what went wrong.
Not really but they tried. Initially, there were two competing
standards with manufacturers lining up on both sides. However, they
managed to reach an agreement on a common format by 1996: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD#Development_and_launch>
Somewhat later, the format fractured into DVD- and DVD+. Sony learned
its lesson fairly well and elected not to monopolize its technology
and restrict licensing. That's the purpose of all the industry trade
groups who agree to unrestricted licensing and to not sue each other
over patent and licensing issues.
considering how behind US phone tech was generally I?d be surprised if GSM
wasn?t in this case technically better, though both have been switched off
the networks by now.
Both what? GSM and CDMA?
I believe both aren?t used anymore by phone networks at least?
There are still phones being sold that work on GSM and CDMA. That's
because there are still older systems that use these protocols.
Mostly, they're used in low speed data systems. The number of
channels available to these older technologies are shrinking and will hopefully disappear eventually.
This map might help show the rather crooked path for cellular
progress: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_Advanced#/media/File:Cellular_network_standards_and_generation_timeline.svg>
"Is GSM still in use today, or has it been replaced by newer
technologies?" <https://medium.com/@Breadarose/is-gsm-still-in-use-today-or-has-it-been-replaced-by-newer-technologies-5c8fe3f201b3>
On 1/8/2025 7:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 23:01:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 1/7/2025 4:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:02:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
To tell another anti-AT&T tale: The first time we went to continental >>>> Europe, we (or rather, my wife) had a flip phone through AT&T. I called >>>> AT&T support to ask whether the phone would function in Europe. The tech >>>> support guy I got told me it absolutely would, no problem at all.Approximately what year was your visit to Europe? Which countries?
Of course when we landed, we found the phone was useful only as a
paperweight. IIRC, the phone wasn't even capable of dealing with the >>>> frequencies that Europe used. And when I took it into a cell phone store >>>> of some kind, asking if something could be done to make it work, the >>>> tech guy there said "We've never even seen a phone like this one!"
Ah well. We got by for six weeks anyway, mostly by using internet cafes. >>>
Any clue as to the maker and model number of the flip phone?
That visit was 2007. Poland, Czechia, Austria, Italy and Switzerland.
OK, no maker and model of flip phone. So, I have to guess. 2007
would probably be a 3G phone. LTE was initially introduced in 2009
with a fairly small number of cell sites. By about 2009, there were sufficient LTE sites available to offer service in metro areas.
Anyway, with an AT&T phone made before 2007, my best guess(tm) would
be it was a 3G phone using GSM, GPRS or EDGE. I'm not sure this will
help, but it does show some of the possibilities: <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Cellular_network_standards_and_generation_timeline.svg>
Europe switched from 2G and 3G to 4G (and now some 5G) protocols,
which also included some added bands. Shutting down the 2G and 3G
networks is still work in progress.
"A Complete Overview of 2G & 3G Sunsets"
<https://1ot.com/resources/blog/a-complete-overview-of-2g-3g-sunsets>
My guess(tm) is your flip phone was 2G or possibly 3G which is why it
didn't work on a 4G network. However, since this was AT&T, it's
possible that the SIM chip that AT&T sold you was misprogrammed,
incorrectly activated or just plain defective.
If the SIM card were bad in that way, would it work in the U.S.?
Maybe. I used "defective", as in electrically broken. Is that what
you meant by "bad"? The SIM could be setup for the correct protocol,
but the wrong frequency bands, system ID, etc. It only takes one programming error, and it won't work or do something strange.
Similarly, it also could be a provisioning error at the cellular
providers end. Only one way to do it right, but plenty of ways to do
it wrong.
The phone was fine at home.
I assume that means it was fine using the original USA SIM and not the European SIM.
It never got a European SIM. Understand, back in those days I knew approximately nothing about cell phones. The phone was my wife's, used
almost entirely for her job. I may not have known what a SIM card was.
As I said, AT&T promised the phone would work perfectly as is. The
European cell phone store staff told me it could never work.
Ah well. It's all electrons over the dam now.
Is there some reason that you think that people would rather talk about a 30 year old video tape standard rather than bicycles on a bicycle group?
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