On 1/19/2025 9:33 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadie >> commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >> the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >> salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring.
I use wax based lubes so the drive chain remains clean, but it hadn’t
occurred to me, that it would pack up on the commute! Off road is one thing >> pounding the streets of london is another!
Has been cold and so frosty roads plus salt etc, ie mucky roads but even so >> cleaning commuting bikes I’m not sure I approve of the idea!
When my friction shifting drive train starts feeling odd, I always check those plastic cable channels under the bottom bracket. They're easy to forget, and they can get clogged with road grime.
I think I had less of that problem with the older style metal channels
brazed on above the bottom bracket. But I don't ride those bikes as much these days.
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadie >commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring.
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news Ive discovered that the Old school roadie >>commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB whos cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >>the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >>salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring.
Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear >derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides
and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:38:18 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadie >>>commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >>>the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >>>salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring.
Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear >>derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse >>than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
Full length housing pretty eliminates those problems, and it's easier
to install and replace.
Am Mon, 20 Jan 2025 06:39:30 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder ><Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:38:18 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news Ive discovered that the Old school roadie >>>>commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
Unlike the old MTB whos cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >>>>the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >>>>salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>>
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear >>>derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse >>>than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>>and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but >>>can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing >>>both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>>solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
Full length housing pretty eliminates those problems, and it's easier
to install and replace.
Depending on the frame, it might be difficult to route the housing
through the bottom bracket.
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:38:18 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadie >>> commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >>> the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >>> salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear
derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides
and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable
solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
Full length housing pretty eliminates those problems, and it's easier
to install and replace.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Am Mon, 20 Jan 2025 06:39:30 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:38:18 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadieWireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime
the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected
salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>>
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear
derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>> and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>> solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
Full length housing pretty eliminates those problems, and it's easier
to install and replace.
Depending on the frame, it might be difficult to route the housing
through the bottom bracket.
On 1/20/2025 5:39 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:38:18 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news Ive discovered that the Old school roadie >>>> commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
Unlike the old MTB whos cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >>>> the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected
salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>>
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear
derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>> and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>> solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
Full length housing pretty eliminates those problems, and it's easier
to install and replace.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Maybe for you but it goes both ways.
Full casing is very prone to moisture and crud and less
easily cleaned. On split casing, one snaps the casing out of
the stop and slides it back along the wire. Takes just a minute.
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 13:14:22 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am Mon, 20 Jan 2025 06:39:30 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder >><Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:38:18 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadieWireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime
the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected
salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>>>
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear >>>>derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse >>>>than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>>>and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but >>>>can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing >>>>both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>>>solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
Full length housing pretty eliminates those problems, and it's easier
to install and replace.
Depending on the frame, it might be difficult to route the housing
through the bottom bracket.
Through the bottom bracket? I wasn't referring to running it through
the frame. Just full length cable housing. Maybe I have the wrong
term.
I think I see the housing refered to as cable guide. Our
Catrikes have no bare wire except right at the deraileurs.
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadie >> commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >> the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >> salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring.
Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides
and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
On 1/20/2025 11:15 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_frame>
The cable routing for the rear derailleur is usually like this: The
cable is routed open along the down tube on its underside and from the
cable guide under the bottom bracket further to the end of the chain
stay. So there are only two short cable housings, from the shifter to
the headset or top of down tube and then from the end of the chainstay
to the rear derailleur.
FWIW, the worst of these problems I ever had was with my first mountain
bike. To turn the front shift cable upwards from the down tube to behind
the seat tube, it had a short (maybe 6") of cable housing. Both ends of
that housing pointed upward, and inhaled water and mud. I did ride the
woods in winter back in those days, and the moisture in the housing
would freeze, locking up front shifting.
The open metal channel guides atop the bottom bracket gave the least
trouble IME. Plastic guides under the bottom bracket need occasional
cleaning and lube, but were also far better than housing.
Am Mon, 20 Jan 2025 07:35:58 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 13:14:22 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am Mon, 20 Jan 2025 06:39:30 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:38:18 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>: >>>>>
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadie
commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss! >>>>>>
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime
the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected
salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring.
Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear >>>>> derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse >>>>> than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>>>> and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but >>>>> can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing >>>>> both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>>>> solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
Full length housing pretty eliminates those problems, and it's easier
to install and replace.
Depending on the frame, it might be difficult to route the housing
through the bottom bracket.
Through the bottom bracket? I wasn't referring to running it through
the frame. Just full length cable housing. Maybe I have the wrong
term.
Maybe you are refering to your nonstandard frame. Roger was talking
about his "roadie", so most probably about a diamond frame.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_frame>
The cable routing for the rear derailleur is usually like this: The
cable is routed open along the down tube on its underside and from the
cable guide under the bottom bracket further to the end of the chain
stay. So there are only two short cable housings, from the shifter to
the headset or top of down tube and then from the end of the chainstay
to the rear derailleur.
See <https://si.shimano.com/en/pdfs/dm/RD0004/DM-RD0004-09-ENG.pdf> page
4, "cable guide" M-SP17/SP1 and <https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-smsp18m-bottom-bracket-shell-fitting-double-cable-guide>
I think I see the housing refered to as cable guide. Our
Catrikes have no bare wire except right at the deraileurs.
Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadie >>> commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!Wireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime >>> the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected >>> salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>
I’d expect so or even electronic as well sealed systems, though not really >in the spirt of the cheap roadie!
Wasn’t actually the cable guides under the bottom bracket but muck >collecting between the mech/chainset and the chain stays which clogged the >cable and it’s guide.
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear
derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides
and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable
solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
I’ll keep an eye on it!
Am 20 Jan 2025 18:31:43 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadieWireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime
the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected
salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>>
I’d expect so or even electronic as well sealed systems, though not really >> in the spirt of the cheap roadie!
Certainly. But I expect that electronic shifting, whether wireless or
wired, will become just as cheap or even cheaper than purely mechanical parts, in the long term.
I am imaging a future road bike where a central energy and data bus
supplies energy by internally routed wires to every relevant component,
from lights, derallieurs, switches and control panes. I'd move an
optional hub dynamo from the usuall location in the front wheel to the
rear and put an optional battery into the seat tube, like Shimano does.
A suitably dimensioned ultracap at another point inside the frame could
be used to supply the lights and electronics when stationary if neither
a battery nor a hub dynamo are installed.
Even very cheap bicycles are sold with hub dynamos, nowadays. I expect a slimmed-down version of the above might become available, too.
Wasn’t actually the cable guides under the bottom bracket but muck
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear
derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>> and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>> solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
collecting between the mech/chainset and the chain stays which clogged the >> cable and it’s guide.
The cable guide is in the open, on a place that is exposed to salt, dirt/salt/water/mud from the road, so it will collect debris, resulting
in a corroded or stuck cable. In my experience, parts where the cable
runs in the open without a housing/cover are rarely a problem.
I’ll keep an eye on it!
Cleaning and a little bit of grease now and then helps. When in doubt, replace both the inner cable and the cable guide. These parts are cheap
and easy to replace.
Am 20 Jan 2025 18:31:43 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadieWireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime
the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected
salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>>
I’d expect so or even electronic as well sealed systems, though not really >> in the spirt of the cheap roadie!
Certainly. But I expect that electronic shifting, whether wireless or
wired, will become just as cheap or even cheaper than purely mechanical parts, in the long term.
I am imaging a future road bike where a central energy and data bus
supplies energy by internally routed wires to every relevant component,
from lights, derallieurs, switches and control panes. I'd move an
optional hub dynamo from the usuall location in the front wheel to the
rear and put an optional battery into the seat tube, like Shimano does.
A suitably dimensioned ultracap at another point inside the frame could
be used to supply the lights and electronics when stationary if neither
a battery nor a hub dynamo are installed.
Even very cheap bicycles are sold with hub dynamos, nowadays. I expect a slimmed-down version of the above might become available, too.
Wasn’t actually the cable guides under the bottom bracket but muck
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear
derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse
than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>> and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>> solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
collecting between the mech/chainset and the chain stays which clogged the >> cable and it’s guide.
The cable guide is in the open, on a place that is exposed to salt, dirt/salt/water/mud from the road, so it will collect debris, resulting
in a corroded or stuck cable. In my experience, parts where the cable
runs in the open without a housing/cover are rarely a problem.
I’ll keep an eye on it!
Cleaning and a little bit of grease now and then helps. When in doubt, replace both the inner cable and the cable guide. These parts are cheap
and easy to replace.
On 1/21/2025 5:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am 20 Jan 2025 18:31:43 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>:
Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am 19 Jan 2025 14:33:37 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>: >>>>
In slightly disappointing news I’ve discovered that the Old school roadieWireless shifting might come to the rescue. :-)
commuter does need to be cleanse or shifting becomes hit and miss!
Unlike the old MTB who’s cables run safely out of reach of muck and grime
the roadie runs the shift cables around the bottom bracket, which collected
salt/grime which eventually stopped it shifting reliably to the big ring. >>>>
I’d expect so or even electronic as well sealed systems, though not really
in the spirt of the cheap roadie!
Certainly. But I expect that electronic shifting, whether wireless or
wired, will become just as cheap or even cheaper than purely mechanical
parts, in the long term.
I am imaging a future road bike where a central energy and data bus
supplies energy by internally routed wires to every relevant component,
from lights, derallieurs, switches and control panes. I'd move an
optional hub dynamo from the usuall location in the front wheel to the
rear and put an optional battery into the seat tube, like Shimano does.
A suitably dimensioned ultracap at another point inside the frame could
be used to supply the lights and electronics when stationary if neither
a battery nor a hub dynamo are installed.
Even very cheap bicycles are sold with hub dynamos, nowadays. I expect a
slimmed-down version of the above might become available, too.
Wasn’t actually the cable guides under the bottom bracket but muck
I avoid these conditions nowadays, so I can't report on how the rear
derailleur deals with dirt and especially salt. Most probably not worse >>>> than a mechanical one and perhaps better.
Years ago, when commuting around the year, I had both spare cable guides >>>> and cables in my toolbox. Using a a little bit of grease helps, but
can't help with corrosion on salted roads, in the long run. Replacing
both the inner cable and the cable guide after winter is a more reliable >>>> solution. These parts are cheap.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=derailleur+cable+guide+bottom+bracket&iax=images&ia=images>
collecting between the mech/chainset and the chain stays which clogged the >>> cable and it’s guide.
The cable guide is in the open, on a place that is exposed to salt,
dirt/salt/water/mud from the road, so it will collect debris, resulting
in a corroded or stuck cable. In my experience, parts where the cable
runs in the open without a housing/cover are rarely a problem.
I’ll keep an eye on it!
Cleaning and a little bit of grease now and then helps. When in doubt,
replace both the inner cable and the cable guide. These parts are cheap
and easy to replace.
I agree with you that electronic shift will displace most
steel wire control systems but, looking at other consumer
products, that's highly likely to go wireless rather than
cables.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 498 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 49:40:43 |
| Calls: | 9,808 |
| Calls today: | 10 |
| Files: | 13,754 |
| Messages: | 6,190,267 |
