Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano
triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the thumb lever
has stopped
returning to the neutral position after being pressed. I've
lubed the heck
out of it, and it seems it may be getting very slightly
better--but I'm
wondering if it may be likely that something has broken
inside the brifter.
Any tips for restoring full function (all else is fine), or
am I destined
to get a new one?
On 3/11/2025 11:05 AM, Ted wrote:
Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the
thumb lever has stopped returning to the neutral position
after being pressed.
Usually a simple fix.
Flip the bike upside down and look closely at the return lever
pivot. If you're my age, use a magnifier and a good light.
It's assembly "S" here:
www.yellowjersey.org/ergo1.html
You can move the rubber cover around as needed to see what
you're doing.
There is a stamped rivet on which that lever pivots. It's
likely rusted. Under the lever, barely visible, is the world's
smallest spring. It's likely rusted as well. Use your favorite
rust breaker (We like the GM-Delco Rust Breaker, or use PB
Blaster, Kroil, whatever.) and work the lever until it is free.
If that return lever sticks, the rest of the mechanism cannot
move.
Add a drop of oil at that point on your other lever while it's
upside down and again annually.
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 11:05 AM, Ted wrote:
Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the
thumb lever has stopped returning to the neutral position
after being pressed.
Usually a simple fix.
Flip the bike upside down and look closely at the return lever
pivot. If you're my age, use a magnifier and a good light.
It's assembly "S" here:
www.yellowjersey.org/ergo1.html
You can move the rubber cover around as needed to see what
you're doing.
There is a stamped rivet on which that lever pivots. It's
likely rusted. Under the lever, barely visible, is the world's
smallest spring. It's likely rusted as well. Use your favorite
rust breaker (We like the GM-Delco Rust Breaker, or use PB
Blaster, Kroil, whatever.) and work the lever until it is free.
If that return lever sticks, the rest of the mechanism cannot
move.
Add a drop of oil at that point on your other lever while it's
upside down and again annually.
Perfect, thanks! Not sure it's my favorite, but PB Blaster is
what I have on hand. So far no release, but I'll let it keep
soaking.
And yeah, I need a magnifier. Taking off my glasses and getting
my eyes really close is my typical approach.
As I started writing just now to say that the other brifter is
Shimano and not Campy, I realized I should have said the stuck
Campy is the brifter for the front der. I think the guts are very
similar?
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've lubed its
internals too.
On 3/11/2025 12:32 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've lubed
its internals too.
p.s. In nine speed, all nine cassettes shift in any nine system
so if you have a Shimano wheel with an Ergo 9 shift system,
spacing is identical. Nine was a brief kumbaya moment for
standards otherwise in conflict, before and since, in that
regard.
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 12:40:48 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 12:32 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've lubed
its internals too.
p.s. In nine speed, all nine cassettes shift in any nine system
so if you have a Shimano wheel with an Ergo 9 shift system,
spacing is identical. Nine was a brief kumbaya moment for
standards otherwise in conflict, before and since, in that
regard.
Ya know, I've always heard (and read) that about nine speeds, but
I could never get the Campy 9-speed derailer to reliably shift the
Shimano 9-speed rear der on our first tandem (originally with
Suntour 7 speed). I tried a J-tek adaptor--it helped some, but
still shifted poorly.
On 3/11/25 2:25 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/11/2025 12:45 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 12:40:48 -0500,
  AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
 On 3/11/2025 12:32 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
   AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because
tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm
sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've
lubed
its internals too.
 p.s. In nine speed, all nine cassettes shift in any
nine system
 so if you have a Shimano wheel with an Ergo 9 shift
system,
 spacing is identical. Nine was a brief kumbaya moment for
 standards otherwise in conflict, before and since, in
that
 regard.
Ya know, I've always heard (and read) that about nine
speeds, but
I could never get the Campy 9-speed derailer to reliably
shift the
Shimano 9-speed rear der on our first tandem (originally
with
Suntour 7 speed). I tried a J-tek adaptor--it helped
some, but
still shifted poorly.
Campagnolo long cage nine rear changer with Ergo lever?
Should shift perfectly on a Shimano 9 cassette.
Set up many Santanas that way as the Santana/Hadley hub
only takes Shimano format cassettes.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SGSANTAN.JPG
(with an STi, lever I'd suggest a Deore changer.)
Maybe the problem was from mixing a Shimano derailer with
the Ergo. It's
been at least 15 years, so my memory is a bit hazy.
On 3/11/2025 12:45 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 12:40:48 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 12:32 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've lubed
its internals too.
p.s. In nine speed, all nine cassettes shift in any nine system
so if you have a Shimano wheel with an Ergo 9 shift system,
spacing is identical. Nine was a brief kumbaya moment for
standards otherwise in conflict, before and since, in that
regard.
Ya know, I've always heard (and read) that about nine speeds, but
I could never get the Campy 9-speed derailer to reliably shift the
Shimano 9-speed rear der on our first tandem (originally with
Suntour 7 speed). I tried a J-tek adaptor--it helped some, but
still shifted poorly.
Campagnolo long cage nine rear changer with Ergo lever?
Should shift perfectly on a Shimano 9 cassette.
Set up many Santanas that way as the Santana/Hadley hub only
takes Shimano format cassettes.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SGSANTAN.JPG
(with an STi, lever I'd suggest a Deore changer.)
On 3/11/2025 12:32 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 11:05 AM, Ted wrote:
Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the
thumb lever has stopped returning to the neutral position
after being pressed.
Usually a simple fix.
Flip the bike upside down and look closely at the return
lever pivot. If you're my age, use a magnifier and a good
light. It's assembly "S" here:
www.yellowjersey.org/ergo1.html
You can move the rubber cover around as needed to see what
you're doing.
There is a stamped rivet on which that lever pivots. It's
likely rusted. Under the lever, barely visible, is the
world's smallest spring. It's likely rusted as well. Use
your favorite rust breaker (We like the GM-Delco Rust
Breaker, or use PB Blaster, Kroil, whatever.) and work the
lever until it is free.
If that return lever sticks, the rest of the mechanism
cannot move.
Add a drop of oil at that point on your other lever while
it's upside down and again annually.
Perfect, thanks! Not sure it's my favorite, but PB Blaster is
what I have on hand. So far no release, but I'll let it keep
soaking.
And yeah, I need a magnifier. Taking off my glasses and
getting my eyes really close is my typical approach.
As I started writing just now to say that the other brifter is
Shimano and not Campy, I realized I should have said the stuck
Campy is the brifter for the front der. I think the guts are
very similar?
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've lubed
its internals too.
The Ergo system (generally, all generations) is quite different^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
from the STi system (again, many variants since 1992). As
such, the wear symptoms and failure modes are utterly
different. Plus Ergo before 2010 were totally
repairable/rebuildable unlike the STi design.
They do share one common foible in that when the release lever
is stuck, nothing else can move.
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 12:40:48 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 12:32 PM, Ted Heise wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 11:05 AM, Ted wrote:
Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the
thumb lever has stopped returning to the neutral position
after being pressed.
Usually a simple fix.
Flip the bike upside down and look closely at the return
lever pivot. If you're my age, use a magnifier and a good
light. It's assembly "S" here:
www.yellowjersey.org/ergo1.html
You can move the rubber cover around as needed to see what
you're doing.
There is a stamped rivet on which that lever pivots. It's
likely rusted. Under the lever, barely visible, is the
world's smallest spring. It's likely rusted as well. Use
your favorite rust breaker (We like the GM-Delco Rust
Breaker, or use PB Blaster, Kroil, whatever.) and work the
lever until it is free.
If that return lever sticks, the rest of the mechanism
cannot move.
Add a drop of oil at that point on your other lever while
it's upside down and again annually.
Perfect, thanks! Not sure it's my favorite, but PB Blaster is
what I have on hand. So far no release, but I'll let it keep
soaking.
And yeah, I need a magnifier. Taking off my glasses and
getting my eyes really close is my typical approach.
As I started writing just now to say that the other brifter is
Shimano and not Campy, I realized I should have said the stuck
Campy is the brifter for the front der. I think the guts are
very similar?
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've lubed
its internals too.
The Ergo system (generally, all generations) is quite different
from the STi system (again, many variants since 1992). As
such, the wear symptoms and failure modes are utterly
different. Plus Ergo before 2010 were totally
repairable/rebuildable unlike the STi design.
They do share one common foible in that when the release lever
is stuck, nothing else can move.
So after riding it this afternoon, it's still not working as it
should. After some reflection, I wonder if we're talking about
the same thing. The shifter works both directions, both levers
move--it's just that the thumb lever doesn't come back to its
normal resting position after being pressed and then released.
I'm wondering if maybe the spring is broken.
Another oddity of that shifter the last year or so is it tends to
loosen on its own. In particular, as we ride along on the large
ring the derailer will gradually move toward the middle ring. I
seem to recall it's gone so far as to downshift on its own a few
times.
In any case, that lever is over 25 years old and by now has served
me for many, many thousands of miles. Probably time for a new
one.
The front derailer is a Shimano Ultegra that would would have been
new when we bought the Santana in 2012. I think I pulled out the
Ergo brifter (left over from my old Waterford) and put it on the
tandem when it seemed I could never get the Shimano shifter to
trim the derailer on the triple ring.
Any suggestions on what I should look for? I'm willing to get a
new front der too, if that makes it easier.
And thanks much for the help, Andrew. I really appreciate it.
On 3/11/2025 4:04 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 12:40:48 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
The Ergo system (generally, all generations) is quite^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
different from the STi system (again, many variants since
1992). As such, the wear symptoms and failure modes are
utterly different. Plus Ergo before 2010 were totally
repairable/rebuildable unlike the STi design.
They do share one common foible in that when the release
lever is stuck, nothing else can move.
So after riding it this afternoon, it's still not working as
it should. After some reflection, I wonder if we're talking
about the same thing. The shifter works both directions, both
levers move--it's just that the thumb lever doesn't come back
to its normal resting position after being pressed and then
released. I'm wondering if maybe the spring is broken.
The front derailer is a Shimano Ultegra that would would have
been new when we bought the Santana in 2012. I think I pulled
out the Ergo brifter (left over from my old Waterford) and put
it on the tandem when it seemed I could never get the Shimano
shifter to trim the derailer on the triple ring.
Well, it should return exactly the same as the other side,
which you have handy for comparison.
IME it's binding from rust, not a physical lack of the spring.
Removing the spring, which will travel quite far and is
extremely hard to spot, is not recommended.
You might also ensure the rubber lever cover itself is not
impeding the lever motion. I have seen than when worn covers
wander about.
The symptom "will not stay in gear" is the normal wearing
indicator. Rebuild with a new spring set ($30) to return to
snappy as new shifting. The spring set starts as round wire and
slowly degrades to a "D" section. The springs engage a sintered
hardened steel index gear which will not show wear.
Unless crashed or extremely corroded it's unlikely to need
other parts inside. Rebuild usually entails new wires (or
complete cable set) and tape.
Ergos before 2010 are compatible with any front changer-
double, triple, any brand, modern or vintage.
Modern LH shifters (all brands) have futzy complex
compatibility charts so if you do buy a new lever get a new
matching front changer.
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:17:57 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 11:05 AM, Ted wrote:
Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the
thumb lever has stopped returning to the neutral position
after being pressed.
Usually a simple fix.
Flip the bike upside down and look closely at the return lever
pivot. If you're my age, use a magnifier and a good light.
It's assembly "S" here:
www.yellowjersey.org/ergo1.html
You can move the rubber cover around as needed to see what
you're doing.
There is a stamped rivet on which that lever pivots. It's
likely rusted. Under the lever, barely visible, is the world's
smallest spring. It's likely rusted as well. Use your favorite
rust breaker (We like the GM-Delco Rust Breaker, or use PB
Blaster, Kroil, whatever.) and work the lever until it is free.
If that return lever sticks, the rest of the mechanism cannot
move.
Add a drop of oil at that point on your other lever while it's
upside down and again annually.
Perfect, thanks! Not sure it's my favorite, but PB Blaster is
what I have on hand. So far no release, but I'll let it keep
soaking.
And yeah, I need a magnifier. Taking off my glasses and getting
my eyes really close is my typical approach.
As I started writing just now to say that the other brifter is
Shimano and not Campy, I realized I should have said the stuck
Campy is the brifter for the front der. I think the guts are very
similar?
FWIW, I run a Shimano brifter for the rear because tandem hubs
seem to all be designed for Shimano cassettes, as I'm sure you
know. I think this is a 10 speed, but in any case I've lubed its
internals too.
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 17:48:21 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 4:04 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 12:40:48 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
The Ergo system (generally, all generations) is quite^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
different from the STi system (again, many variants since
1992). As such, the wear symptoms and failure modes are
utterly different. Plus Ergo before 2010 were totally
repairable/rebuildable unlike the STi design.
They do share one common foible in that when the release
lever is stuck, nothing else can move.
So after riding it this afternoon, it's still not working as
it should. After some reflection, I wonder if we're talking
about the same thing. The shifter works both directions, both
levers move--it's just that the thumb lever doesn't come back
to its normal resting position after being pressed and then
released. I'm wondering if maybe the spring is broken.
The front derailer is a Shimano Ultegra that would would have
been new when we bought the Santana in 2012. I think I pulled
out the Ergo brifter (left over from my old Waterford) and put
it on the tandem when it seemed I could never get the Shimano
shifter to trim the derailer on the triple ring.
Well, it should return exactly the same as the other side,
which you have handy for comparison.
Actually, the other side is Shimano. All components are Shimano
except for the left shifter.
IME it's binding from rust, not a physical lack of the spring.
Removing the spring, which will travel quite far and is
extremely hard to spot, is not recommended.
You might also ensure the rubber lever cover itself is not
impeding the lever motion. I have seen than when worn covers
wander about.
The symptom "will not stay in gear" is the normal wearing
indicator. Rebuild with a new spring set ($30) to return to
snappy as new shifting. The spring set starts as round wire and
slowly degrades to a "D" section. The springs engage a sintered
hardened steel index gear which will not show wear.
Okay, that all makes sense. I found a left Ergo rebuild kit here,
but it says "sold out"
https://branfordbike.com/ergo-shifter-parts
I also found a new 10 sp left shifter here...
https://sscycleworks.com/components/shift-levers-campagnolo-ergopower-parts.html
I don't feel very confident in rebuilding the silly thing, so that
seems like it might be my best bet if I want to stay with a Campy
shifter. If it's the right one. The hood front on mine says...
CARBON
BB-SYSTEM
and I think it is 9-speed, but for a front derailer it seems an
extra click would be just fine.
Unless crashed or extremely corroded it's unlikely to need
other parts inside. Rebuild usually entails new wires (or
complete cable set) and tape.
Ergos before 2010 are compatible with any front changer-
double, triple, any brand, modern or vintage.
Modern LH shifters (all brands) have futzy complex
compatibility charts so if you do buy a new lever get a new
matching front changer.
Appreciate the voice of experience here. Again.
If I were to go back to Shimano, is there a specific model and
part you would recommend for my triple chainring setup? It's
26-39-50, in case it matters.
On 3/11/2025 4:04 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
In any case, that lever is over 25 years old and by now has
served me for many, many thousands of miles. Probably time
for a new one.
Any suggestions on what I should look for? I'm willing to get
a new front der too, if that makes it easier.
Ergos before 2010 are compatible with any front changer-
double, triple, any brand, modern or vintage.
Modern LH shifters (all brands) have futzy complex
compatibility charts so if you do buy a new lever get a new
matching front changer.
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 17:48:21 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 4:04 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
In any case, that lever is over 25 years old and by now has
served me for many, many thousands of miles. Probably time
for a new one.
Any suggestions on what I should look for? I'm willing to get
a new front der too, if that makes it easier.
Ergos before 2010 are compatible with any front changer-
double, triple, any brand, modern or vintage.
Modern LH shifters (all brands) have futzy complex
compatibility charts so if you do buy a new lever get a new
matching front changer.
Well, I ordered this, and will cross my fingers that it works well
with my existing Ultegra front derailer (from about 2012)...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-st4703-brake-shift-levers-black-left-3x-ist4703li2/p1582943?v=1163484&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhMq-BhCFARIsAGvo0KdIIJdmPqPfG3DJa-4q3cGPbZYyAGoSKCJi_TnZKa8vH8PlfxheO5YaAmpsEALw_wcB
If it doesn't work, it looks like this would be the derailer that
corresponds to that shifter...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-fd4703-front-derailleur-3-x-10-speed-34.9mm-ifd4703bl/p1278459?v=479700
On 3/13/2025 10:02 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 17:48:21 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Ergos before 2010 are compatible with any front changer-
double, triple, any brand, modern or vintage.
Modern LH shifters (all brands) have futzy complex
compatibility charts so if you do buy a new lever get a new
matching front changer.
Well, I ordered this, and will cross my fingers that it works
well with my existing Ultegra front derailer (from about
2012)...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-st4703-brake-shift-levers-black-left-3x-ist4703li2/p1582943?v=1163484&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhMq-BhCFARIsAGvo0KdIIJdmPqPfG3DJa-4q3cGPbZYyAGoSKCJi_TnZKa8vH8PlfxheO5YaAmpsEALw_wcB
If it doesn't work, it looks like this would be the derailer
that corresponds to that shifter...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-fd4703-front-derailleur-3-x-10-speed-34.9mm-ifd4703bl/p1278459?v=479700
Yes, I mentioned that.
ST-4703 has to use FD-4703 and cannot shift the older Tiagra
model, nor Ultegra, 105 etc:
https://productinfo.shimano.com/en/compatibility/C-455
Both Campagnolo and Shimano have made a lot of front changers
the past few years with radically different upper arm length,
both longer and shorter than classic, which require levers with
matching cable travel.
On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:34:03 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/13/2025 10:02 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 17:48:21 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Ergos before 2010 are compatible with any front changer-
double, triple, any brand, modern or vintage.
Modern LH shifters (all brands) have futzy complex
compatibility charts so if you do buy a new lever get a new
matching front changer.
Well, I ordered this, and will cross my fingers that it works
well with my existing Ultegra front derailer (from about
2012)...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-st4703-brake-shift-levers-black-left-3x-ist4703li2/p1582943?v=1163484&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhMq-BhCFARIsAGvo0KdIIJdmPqPfG3DJa-4q3cGPbZYyAGoSKCJi_TnZKa8vH8PlfxheO5YaAmpsEALw_wcB
If it doesn't work, it looks like this would be the derailer
that corresponds to that shifter...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-fd4703-front-derailleur-3-x-10-speed-34.9mm-ifd4703bl/p1278459?v=479700
Yes, I mentioned that.
Yes, you did. I saw your reference to "futzy complex
compatibility charts" and concluded that even if I was able to
track down the charts they might not do me that much good. Maybe
I misread or was overly scared. :-/
ST-4703 has to use FD-4703 and cannot shift the older Tiagra
model, nor Ultegra, 105 etc:
https://productinfo.shimano.com/en/compatibility/C-455
Yikes, I see what you mean about futzy!
Both Campagnolo and Shimano have made a lot of front changers
the past few years with radically different upper arm length,
both longer and shorter than classic, which require levers with
matching cable travel.
I will go order the proper front der right now. Thanks for the
wisdom, and the illustrations!
On 3/13/2025 10:55 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:34:03 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Both Campagnolo and Shimano have made a lot of front
changers the past few years with radically different upper
arm length, both longer and shorter than classic, which
require levers with matching cable travel.
I will go order the proper front der right now. Thanks for
the wisdom, and the illustrations!
I would have rebuilt the Ergo lever but matching new STi & FD
works as well.
On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 12:02:48 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/13/2025 10:55 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:34:03 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Both Campagnolo and Shimano have made a lot of front
changers the past few years with radically different upper
arm length, both longer and shorter than classic, which
require levers with matching cable travel.
I will go order the proper front der right now. Thanks for
the wisdom, and the illustrations!
I would have rebuilt the Ergo lever but matching new STi & FD
works as well.
I understand, and don't disagree. Dredging through the dark
recesses of what used to be my memory, there seems to be a
suspicion that I had trouble getting the original Shimano triple
system (Ultegra shifter and derailer from 2012) to reliably go
onto the small ring and that's why I went to the Ergo shifter.
But I could be wrong.
In any case, I've been thinking to find a rebuild kit for the
Campy shifter and give the job a go--if nothing more than as a
backup to the new Shimano components. I just didn't think to
mention this as a plan.
This site lists what seems to be exactly what I would need, but
says it's sold out...
https://branfordbike.com/ergo-shifter-parts
The Performance site lists a lot of individual parts, but nothing
like a kit that I can see...
https://www.performancebike.com/campagnolo-shifter-parts-shifters/c16646?fb=1011&srsltid=AfmBOoqTy_t2eBB531sqcn7tYucZWh_ArCPwDmBxYeum1aAt_rVtY1QM
This site seems to have what's needed, but I'm not sure it's true
(the site function seems slightly sketchy)...
https://www.eurobikeparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=CA-ERGOUPG_P&srsltid=AfmBOopKBZFxNzRP7YhstZu5xoN4jkl5SDH_3rRiaV06UQNxpiLBTJ5g
This site lists a NOS lever...
https://sscycleworks.com/components/shift-levers-campagnolo-ergopower-parts.html
Any suggestions or pointers for me out of those (or other)
options?
On 3/13/2025 10:02 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 17:48:21 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/11/2025 4:04 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
In any case, that lever is over 25 years old and by now has
served me for many, many thousands of miles. Probably time
for a new one.
Any suggestions on what I should look for? I'm willing to get
a new front der too, if that makes it easier.
Ergos before 2010 are compatible with any front changer-
double, triple, any brand, modern or vintage.
Modern LH shifters (all brands) have futzy complex
compatibility charts so if you do buy a new lever get a new
matching front changer.
Well, I ordered this, and will cross my fingers that it works well
with my existing Ultegra front derailer (from about 2012)...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-st4703-brake-shift-levers-black-left-3x-ist4703li2/p1582943?v=1163484&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhMq-BhCFARIsAGvo0KdIIJdmPqPfG3DJa-4q3cGPbZYyAGoSKCJi_TnZKa8vH8PlfxheO5YaAmpsEALw_wcB
If it doesn't work, it looks like this would be the derailer that corresponds to that shifter...
https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-tiagra-fd4703-front-derailleur-3-x-10-speed-34.9mm-ifd4703bl/p1278459?v=479700
Yes, I mentioned that.
ST-4703 has to use FD-4703 and cannot shift the older Tiagra
model, nor Ultegra, 105 etc:
https://productinfo.shimano.com/en/compatibility/C-455
Both Campagnolo and Shimano have made a lot of front
changers the past few years with radically different upper
arm length, both longer and shorter than classic, which
require levers with matching cable travel.
Compare FD-4703 upper arm: https://rower.com.pl/images/cache/f/shimano-tiagra-fd-4703-przerzutka-przednia-3x10-rz-lutowana-547369-867x768.jpg
to a recent 105 for example: https://www.spacycles.co.uk/smsimg/32/3835-13313-main-fd-5800-black-32.jpg
On 3/14/2025 10:48 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
I would have rebuilt the Ergo lever but matching new STi &
FD works as well.
I understand, and don't disagree. Dredging through the dark
recesses of what used to be my memory, there seems to be a
suspicion that I had trouble getting the original Shimano
triple system (Ultegra shifter and derailer from 2012) to
reliably go onto the small ring...
This is sort of off topic, but I'll offer a bit of general
advice.
I've always kept little notepads or log books for car and
motorcycle maintenance issues. When did I change the oil
filter? And what model filter does it take? How did remove that
taillight lens? ... etc.
At a certain point in time, it occurred to me to keep the same
sort of notebook on my bicycles. Of course, since I'm a
(mostly) friction shifting retrogrouch, I don't have a lot of
confusion about matching shifters and derailleurs.
On 3/14/2025 9:48 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
In any case, I've been thinking to find a rebuild kit for the
Campy shifter and give the job a go--if nothing more than as a
backup to the new Shimano components. I just didn't think to
mention this as a plan.
This site lists what seems to be exactly what I would need,
but says it's sold out...
https://branfordbike.com/ergo-shifter-parts
The Performance site lists a lot of individual parts, but
nothing like a kit that I can see...
https://www.performancebike.com/campagnolo-shifter-parts-shifters/c16646?fb=1011&srsltid=AfmBOoqTy_t2eBB531sqcn7tYucZWh_ArCPwDmBxYeum1aAt_rVtY1QM
This site seems to have what's needed, but I'm not sure it's
true (the site function seems slightly sketchy)...
https://www.eurobikeparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=CA-ERGOUPG_P&srsltid=AfmBOopKBZFxNzRP7YhstZu5xoN4jkl5SDH_3rRiaV06UQNxpiLBTJ5g
This site lists a NOS lever...
https://sscycleworks.com/components/shift-levers-campagnolo-ergopower-parts.html
Any suggestions or pointers for me out of those (or other)
options?
Failing other options, you might just call or email us and buy
a set of LH Ergo springs $29.95. We do a lot of Ergo
repair/rebuild here.
On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 12:01:53 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/14/2025 9:48 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
In any case, I've been thinking to find a rebuild kit for the
Campy shifter and give the job a go--if nothing more than as a
backup to the new Shimano components. I just didn't think to
mention this as a plan.
This site lists what seems to be exactly what I would need,
but says it's sold out...
https://branfordbike.com/ergo-shifter-parts
The Performance site lists a lot of individual parts, but
nothing like a kit that I can see...
https://www.performancebike.com/campagnolo-shifter-parts-shifters/c16646?fb=1011&srsltid=AfmBOoqTy_t2eBB531sqcn7tYucZWh_ArCPwDmBxYeum1aAt_rVtY1QM
This site seems to have what's needed, but I'm not sure it's
true (the site function seems slightly sketchy)...
https://www.eurobikeparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=CA-ERGOUPG_P&srsltid=AfmBOopKBZFxNzRP7YhstZu5xoN4jkl5SDH_3rRiaV06UQNxpiLBTJ5g
This site lists a NOS lever...
https://sscycleworks.com/components/shift-levers-campagnolo-ergopower-parts.html
Any suggestions or pointers for me out of those (or other)
options?
Failing other options, you might just call or email us and buy
a set of LH Ergo springs $29.95. We do a lot of Ergo
repair/rebuild here.
Thanks, Andrew. I may just ship it your way and ask your shop to
do the rebuild for me. The Shimano parts should be here early
next week, so once they're on the tandem that will be a good time
to get things started.
On 3/14/2025 10:48 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
I would have rebuilt the Ergo lever but matching new STi & FD
works as well.
I understand, and don't disagree. Dredging through the dark
recesses of what used to be my memory, there seems to be a
suspicion that I had trouble getting the original Shimano triple
system (Ultegra shifter and derailer from 2012) to reliably go
onto the small ring...
This is sort of off topic, but I'll offer a bit of general advice.
I've always kept little notepads or log books for car and motorcycle maintenance issues. When did I change the oil filter? And what model
filter does it take? How did remove that taillight lens? ... etc.
At a certain point in time, it occurred to me to keep the same sort of notebook on my bicycles. Of course, since I'm a (mostly) friction
shifting retrogrouch, I don't have a lot of confusion about matching
shifters and derailleurs.
There have also been many times I've wished I'd thought to do a running
log book on the house and yard. What brand and color of paint did we use
for that trim? What's the number of the replacement cartridge for that bathtub faucet? etc. I finally started that log book a few years ago.
On Fri Mar 14 12:07:42 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/14/2025 10:48 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
I would have rebuilt the Ergo lever but matching new STi & FD
works as well.
I understand, and don't disagree. Dredging through the dark
recesses of what used to be my memory, there seems to be a
suspicion that I had trouble getting the original Shimano triple
system (Ultegra shifter and derailer from 2012) to reliably go
onto the small ring...
This is sort of off topic, but I'll offer a bit of general advice.
I've always kept little notepads or log books for car and motorcycle
maintenance issues. When did I change the oil filter? And what model
filter does it take? How did remove that taillight lens? ... etc.
At a certain point in time, it occurred to me to keep the same sort of
notebook on my bicycles. Of course, since I'm a (mostly) friction
shifting retrogrouch, I don't have a lot of confusion about matching
shifters and derailleurs.
There have also been many times I've wished I'd thought to do a running
log book on the house and yard. What brand and color of paint did we use
for that trim? What's the number of the replacement cartridge for that
bathtub faucet? etc. I finally started that log book a few years ago.
That is probably a goog prsctice but with my smount of drivg, I don't
need to keep track anmd change oil when I intend to go on a trip.
On 3/14/2025 10:48 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
I would have rebuilt the Ergo lever but matching new STi & FD
works as well.
I understand, and don't disagree. Dredging through the dark
recesses of what used to be my memory, there seems to be a
suspicion that I had trouble getting the original Shimano triple
system (Ultegra shifter and derailer from 2012) to reliably go
onto the small ring...
This is sort of off topic, but I'll offer a bit of general advice.
I've always kept little notepads or log books for car and motorcycle maintenance issues. When did I change the oil filter? And what model
filter does it take? How did remove that taillight lens? ... etc.
At a certain point in time, it occurred to me to keep the same sort of notebook on my bicycles. Of course, since I'm a (mostly) friction
shifting retrogrouch, I don't have a lot of confusion about matching
shifters and derailleurs.
There have also been many times I've wished I'd thought to do a running
log book on the house and yard. What brand and color of paint did we use
for that trim? What's the number of the replacement cartridge for that bathtub faucet? etc. I finally started that log book a few years ago.
On 3/15/2025 9:31 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 12:07:42 -0400,
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 3/14/2025 10:48 AM, Ted Heise wrote:Being a chemist who kept many lab notebooks back in the day, this
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
I would have rebuilt the Ergo lever but matching new STi &
FD works as well.
I understand, and don't disagree. Dredging through the dark
recesses of what used to be my memory, there seems to be a
suspicion that I had trouble getting the original Shimano
triple system (Ultegra shifter and derailer from 2012) to
reliably go onto the small ring...
This is sort of off topic, but I'll offer a bit of general
advice.
I've always kept little notepads or log books for car and
motorcycle maintenance issues. When did I change the oil
filter? And what model filter does it take? How did remove that
taillight lens? ... etc.
At a certain point in time, it occurred to me to keep the same
sort of notebook on my bicycles. Of course, since I'm a
(mostly) friction shifting retrogrouch, I don't have a lot of
confusion about matching shifters and derailleurs.
is nothing new to me. At one point (back in the days when it was
easier to do auto repair) I kept a log for my car. After some
years I found it more trouble than it was worth.
A couple years ago I came upon the ancient little notebook in which
I'd kept records of the work I did on my 1966 Corvair. I was
astonished at how often I was into the engine compartment or under the
car. There was plenty to write in that notebook.
This EV is at the opposite extreme. At each 7500 mile interval, the maintenance schedule says "Inspect... Inspect... Inspect..." All I've
ever done is rotate tires and fill the windshield washer reservoir.
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)
A couple years ago I came upon the ancient little notebook in which I'd
kept records of the work I did on my 1966 Corvair. I was astonished at
how often I was into the engine compartment or under the car. There was plenty to write in that notebook.
This EV is at the opposite extreme. At each 7500 mile interval, the maintenance schedule says "Inspect... Inspect... Inspect..." All I've
ever done is rotate tires and fill the windshield washer reservoir.
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, and
do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, itAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, itAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as space for batteries.
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, itAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario would play safe!
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as >> space for batteries.
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to >> transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is >> low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as >> space for batteries.
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to >> transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is >> low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with >> drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get >> brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as >>> space for batteries.
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to >>> transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is >>> low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with >>> drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get >>> brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario >>> would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well as its cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum brakes which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and indeed lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as it is! The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in soggy wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at peak, cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief bursts into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley that’s peaks at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle up and type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
On 3/18/2025 4:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance >>> tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario >>>> would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well as its >> cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum brakes >> which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and indeed >> lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as it is! >> The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in soggy >> wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at peak, >> cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief bursts >> into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle up and >> type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
Gearshift? I thought electric autos didn't have those.
On 3/18/2025 12:20 PM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 18.03.2025 um 16:08 schrieb Radey Shouman:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
And that regeneration [braking] though powerful only works if
the it has somewhere to transfer the power to, so if the
battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is low the braking
performance would decrease and if the battery is full or close
to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not
usually cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required,
but performance tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use
them all the time.
As with a gas tank gauge reading "E" while there's still a gallon
available, I'm willing to bet that "100% charge" on my EV's screen
is not the absolute maximum battery capacity. I've seen online
discussions speculating on the size of that reserve overhead, but no definitive numbers yet.
And I can't imagine that any typical use of brakes would push the regeneration over some limit. While I've never driven this car down
a genuine mountain, I've done some fairly long downhills. The "guess-
o- meter" showing estimated range has risen slightly during such
descents, but never an impressive amount.
Just remember: when "destination charging" at the ski resort, putThe main reason to charge to only 80% is that on most EVs the
a stop below 80% full!
charge rate decreases markedly once you hit 80% capacity.
You can waste a lot of time (and annoy anyone who may be waiting to
use the charger) while getting very little additional range.
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as >>> space for batteries.
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to >>> transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is >>> low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with >>> drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get >>> brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario >>> would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well as its cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum brakes which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and indeed lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as it is! The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in soggy wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at peak, cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief bursts into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley that’s peaks at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle up and type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To theusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often
above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>> plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>> barely
than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge
rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not
usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for
unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche
and Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels. https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/ comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
On 3/19/2025 5:35 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 18.03.2025 um 22:49 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
You can waste a lot of time (and annoy anyone who may be waiting to
use the charger) while getting very little additional range.
I was using the phrase "destination charging" for "AC charging on an
outlet on a long-term parking lot". When using the charger on the
parking lot of the base station, nobody expects me to return before
16:00 at the end of the skiing session; it does not matter whether the
car stops charging at 80% at noon or when full at 13:00; there will be
nobody arriving in search for a slow charger at that time.
I don't know how common charging stations are where you live, but around
here they are still spread pretty thin. It's considered very bad form to
be plugged in and taking that space if your EV is not actively charging.
I've almost never needed to use a public charger, but my understanding
is that some (maybe most?) will bill you at a very high per minute rate
if you're not actively charging.
On 3/19/2025 10:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To theusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often >>>>>>>>> than they
above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>>> plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge >>>>>> rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not
usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for
unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche
and Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/
comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
My point was that they don't have multiple ratios, as roger inferred
with "just don't use the gears" which I read as 'don't shift the gears'.
Of course with a fixed reduction system, it's not possible to _not_ use
the gears.
Am 18.03.2025 um 16:08 schrieb Radey Shouman:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as >>> space for batteries.
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to >>> transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is >>> low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
Just remember: when "destination charging" at the ski resort, put a
stop below 80% full!
Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
On mountain roads, you have to rely on good brakes.
As of today, electric cars rarely drive faster than 80-90 mph on the
autobahn but once you have a 600 mile range at 60 mph the driving will
become similar to other cars. My company will only offer electric
company cars from 2026 onwards, and our sales reps are know to be
among the most ruthless drivers on the German autobahn.
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as >>> space for batteries.
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.)According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to >>> transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is >>> low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with >>> drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get >>> brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario >>> would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well as its cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum brakes which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and indeed lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as it is! The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in soggy wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at peak, cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief bursts into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley that’s peaks at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle up and type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the
thumb lever has stopped returning to the neutral position after
being pressed. I've lubed the heck out of it, and it seems it
may be getting very slightly better--but I'm wondering if it
may be likely that something has broken inside the brifter. Any
tips for restoring full function (all else is fine), or am I
destined to get a new one?
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 16:05:23 -0000 (UTC),
Ted <theise@panix.com> wrote:
Okay, I'm running a Campy Chorus rear derailer on my tandem
with a Shimano triple. It's a 9-speed vintage. Recently the
thumb lever has stopped returning to the neutral position after
being pressed. I've lubed the heck out of it, and it seems it
may be getting very slightly better--but I'm wondering if it
may be likely that something has broken inside the brifter. Any
tips for restoring full function (all else is fine), or am I
destined to get a new one?
Sorry to derail (so to speak) all the battery discussion, but
here's an update on the front derailer matter.
I got in a Tiagra ST-4703-L and FD-4703 and installed them on the
Santana team Ti this afternoon. I was worried that it might not
shift down onto my 26 tooth small ring, but that seems to be okay.
On the other hand, it's tough to get it onto the 50 tooth large
ring, even with the limit screw wide open and the cable as tight
as it'll go. When I can get it shifted onto the large ring, the
cage rubs on the chain. I've tried rotating the derailer a bit
each way about the seat tube, but it doesn't seem to help. My
conclusion is that the chain ring(s) just sit too far outboard,
but there's probably better knowledge here.
Also, when I got the Ergo lever off, the return spring for the
thumb lever started working--partially. The lever still hangs
limp after pressing it as many as four clicks, but it'll now
return after pressing it to the limit. So maybe part of the
spring must still is still rusted in position? In any case, I'm
thinking to send the thing to Andrew for a rebuild. I'm pretty
sure I'd just mess it up.
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles,barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance >>> tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario >>>> would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
What are these "gears"?
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well as its >> cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum brakes >> which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and indeed >> lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as it is! >> The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in soggy >> wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at peak, >> cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief bursts >> into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my (gas powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle up and >> type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plastic >>>>>>>>> under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>> barelyusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they >>>>>>>> recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>>>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance >>>> tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario >>>>> would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a fixed reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine braking, is a wise choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as the smaller roads are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a few miles and 5/10% aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of the longer but closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be particularly demanding it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes quickly, and likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though perhaps taking it relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick grind but is clear after first application, london is on the whole soggy and has been the wettest 12 months on record apparently!
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well as its >>> cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum brakes >>> which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and indeed >>> lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as it is! >>> The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief bursts >>> into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my (gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
Roger MerrimanAll of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle up and >>> type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To theusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks >>>>>>>>> are
above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>>> plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>> barely
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often >>>>>>>>> than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical >>>>>>>>> brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and
charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not
usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed
them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for
unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a fixed reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine braking, is a wise >> choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as the smaller
roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a few miles and
5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of the longer but
closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be particularly
demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes quickly, and
likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though perhaps taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick grind but is
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well
as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum
brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars >>>> half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and
indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as
it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in >>>> soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at >>>> peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief
bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my (gas >>> powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and has been the
wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley
that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle
up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming causes
drought', you need only wait a minute for relief. I'm assisting that
with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
On 3/19/2025 5:01 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 16:05:23 -0000 (UTC),
I got in a Tiagra ST-4703-L and FD-4703 and installed them on
the Santana team Ti this afternoon. I was worried that it
might not shift down onto my 26 tooth small ring, but that
seems to be okay.
On the other hand, it's tough to get it onto the 50 tooth
large ring, even with the limit screw wide open and the cable
as tight as it'll go. When I can get it shifted onto the
large ring, the cage rubs on the chain. I've tried rotating
the derailer a bit each way about the seat tube, but it
doesn't seem to help. My conclusion is that the chain ring(s)
just sit too far outboard, but there's probably better
knowledge here.
Also, when I got the Ergo lever off, the return spring for the
thumb lever started working--partially. The lever still hangs
limp after pressing it as many as four clicks, but it'll now
return after pressing it to the limit. So maybe part of the
spring must still is still rusted in position? In any case,
I'm thinking to send the thing to Andrew for a rebuild. I'm
pretty sure I'd just mess it up.
Sounds like you're making progress against the typical rust and
crud in that return lever pivot. Since it's off the bike, you
might try working it more and, if you have compressed air,
spray it clean, add rust breaker, repeat.
Odd thing about (relatively) modern triple front changers and
chainline. Shimanos are tight to reach the high rings while the
Campagnolo triples are a bit limited for a positive shift into
the low gears.
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 17:20:34 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/19/2025 5:01 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 16:05:23 -0000 (UTC),
I got in a Tiagra ST-4703-L and FD-4703 and installed them on
the Santana team Ti this afternoon. I was worried that it
might not shift down onto my 26 tooth small ring, but that
seems to be okay.
On the other hand, it's tough to get it onto the 50 tooth
large ring, even with the limit screw wide open and the cable
as tight as it'll go. When I can get it shifted onto the
large ring, the cage rubs on the chain. I've tried rotating
the derailer a bit each way about the seat tube, but it
doesn't seem to help. My conclusion is that the chain ring(s)
just sit too far outboard, but there's probably better
knowledge here.
Also, when I got the Ergo lever off, the return spring for the
thumb lever started working--partially. The lever still hangs
limp after pressing it as many as four clicks, but it'll now
return after pressing it to the limit. So maybe part of the
spring must still is still rusted in position? In any case,
I'm thinking to send the thing to Andrew for a rebuild. I'm
pretty sure I'd just mess it up.
Sounds like you're making progress against the typical rust and
crud in that return lever pivot. Since it's off the bike, you
might try working it more and, if you have compressed air,
spray it clean, add rust breaker, repeat.
A bit more progress this morning. Slowly. Slowly.
Odd thing about (relatively) modern triple front changers and
chainline. Shimanos are tight to reach the high rings while the
Campagnolo triples are a bit limited for a positive shift into
the low gears.
Is there any kind of way to put a shim inside the derailer clamp
on the drive side of the seat post to move it slightly outboard?
Maybe that would compromise the clamping.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 13:50:32 -0000 (UTC),
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
Is there any kind of way to put a shim inside the derailer
clamp on the drive side of the seat post to move it
slightly outboard? Maybe that would compromise the
clamping.
Oh, I also meant to ask what you thought of going back to the
old Ultegra derailer with the new shift lever? It obviously
has enough extension to work well with the large ring, and the
lever arm looks to be about the same length as the new Tiagra.
I don't know.
Quick to just install it and see.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 13:50:32 -0000 (UTC),
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 17:20:34 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/19/2025 5:01 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 16:05:23 -0000 (UTC),
I got in a Tiagra ST-4703-L and FD-4703 and installed them on
the Santana team Ti this afternoon. I was worried that it
might not shift down onto my 26 tooth small ring, but that
seems to be okay.
On the other hand, it's tough to get it onto the 50 tooth
large ring, even with the limit screw wide open and the cable
as tight as it'll go. When I can get it shifted onto the
large ring, the cage rubs on the chain. I've tried rotating
the derailer a bit each way about the seat tube, but it
doesn't seem to help. My conclusion is that the chain ring(s)
just sit too far outboard, but there's probably better
knowledge here.
Also, when I got the Ergo lever off, the return spring for the
thumb lever started working--partially. The lever still hangs
limp after pressing it as many as four clicks, but it'll now
return after pressing it to the limit. So maybe part of the
spring must still is still rusted in position? In any case,
I'm thinking to send the thing to Andrew for a rebuild. I'm
pretty sure I'd just mess it up.
Sounds like you're making progress against the typical rust and
crud in that return lever pivot. Since it's off the bike, you
might try working it more and, if you have compressed air,
spray it clean, add rust breaker, repeat.
A bit more progress this morning. Slowly. Slowly.
Odd thing about (relatively) modern triple front changers and
chainline. Shimanos are tight to reach the high rings while the
Campagnolo triples are a bit limited for a positive shift into
the low gears.
Is there any kind of way to put a shim inside the derailer clamp
on the drive side of the seat post to move it slightly outboard?
Maybe that would compromise the clamping.
Oh, I also meant to ask what you thought of going back to the old
Ultegra derailer with the new shift lever? It obviously has
enough extension to work well with the large ring, and the lever
arm looks to be about the same length as the new Tiagra.
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost likeAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with
that. To the above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain
because of the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to
replace brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely
uses its brakes.)
electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem,
because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done
more often than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the
mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a
2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that
problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a
software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would
temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with
just friction braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember
if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver
had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on
how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been
happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the
accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the
scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems
to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better
fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as
rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating
might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
the larger size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if
the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or
hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the
battery is full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full,
and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely
required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all
the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone
has prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or
fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T
plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and
even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular
for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger
cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a
fairly unlikely scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe.
Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical
brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs
are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under
ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could,
in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are
little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection
of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears",
ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is
required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be
driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an
issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
gears, on steep
terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a
fixed reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine
braking, is a wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as
the smaller roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a
few miles and 5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of
the longer but
closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and
so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be
particularly demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes
quickly, and
likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though
perhaps taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not
work as well as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill,
relying on drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably
quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine
problems and indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one
car per year as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty
discs even in soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill!
It’s 25% ish at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st
gear with brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty
discs on my (gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of
year.
grind but is clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and
has been the
wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the
valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly
painful to cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming
causes drought', you need only wait a minute for relief.
I'm assisting that with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that 'Global
Warming causes drought'. The claim is 'Global Warming
exaggerates weather extremes', which is drought for a few
years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of tornadoes
and more winters with -40 where snow falls further south ;-)
On 3/20/2025 8:28 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger >>>>>>>> size’s as
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the >>>>>>>>>>>> above, itAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>>>> barely
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of >>>>>>>>>>>> the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace >>>>>>>>>>>> brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its >>>>>>>>>>>> brakes.)
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the >>>>>>>>>>> disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often >>>>>>>>>>> than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical >>>>>>>>>>> brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change >>>>>>>>>> that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily >>>>>>>>>> turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction >>>>>>>>>> braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do >>>>>>>>>> something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy
enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>> the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the >>>>>>>>> application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but
invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has >>>>>>>> somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and
charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is >>>>>>>> full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not >>>>>>> usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has
prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>>>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in
the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so
you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy
goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I >>>>>>> think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely >>>>>>>> scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric
vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for >>>>>>> unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal
conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then >>>>>>> heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required. >>>>>>>
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most >>>>>>> users don't seem to do that.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a fixed reduction. >>>>
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine braking, is a >>>> wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as the smaller
roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a few miles and
5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of the longer but >>>> closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and so on, but
even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be particularly
demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes quickly, and >>>> likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though perhaps
taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick grind but
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as
well as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on
drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with >>>>>> cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and >>>>>> indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year
as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in >>>>>> soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish >>>>>> at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with
brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my
(gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
is clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and has been the >>>> wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley
that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to
cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming causes
drought', you need only wait a minute for relief. I'm assisting that
with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that 'Global Warming
causes drought'. The claim is 'Global Warming exaggerates weather
extremes', which is drought for a few years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of tornadoes and more
winters with -40 where snow falls further south ;-)
Yes, we do indeed have winters with excessive snow. And winters with
scant snow. There are years with extended brutal cold and winters which
are mild. We have years with more tornados and years with fewer.
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To theusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks >>>>>>>>> are
above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>>> plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>> barely
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often >>>>>>>>> than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical >>>>>>>>> brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and
charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not
usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed
them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for
unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a fixed reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine braking, is a wise >> choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as the smaller
roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a few miles and
5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of the longer but
closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be particularly
demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes quickly, and
likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though perhaps taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick grind but is
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well
as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum
brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars >>>> half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and
indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as
it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in >>>> soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at >>>> peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief
bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my (gas >>> powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and has been the
wettest 12 months on record apparently!
Roger MerrimanAll of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley
that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle
up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming causes
drought'
with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
On 3/20/2025 8:28 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger >>>>>>>> size’s as
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the >>>>>>>>>>>> above, itAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>>>> barely
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of >>>>>>>>>>>> the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace >>>>>>>>>>>> brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its >>>>>>>>>>>> brakes.)
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the >>>>>>>>>>> disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often >>>>>>>>>>> than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical >>>>>>>>>>> brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change >>>>>>>>>> that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily >>>>>>>>>> turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction >>>>>>>>>> braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do >>>>>>>>>> something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy
enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>> the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the >>>>>>>>> application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but
invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has >>>>>>>> somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and
charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is >>>>>>>> full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not >>>>>>> usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has
prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>>>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in
the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so
you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy
goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I >>>>>>> think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely >>>>>>>> scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric
vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for >>>>>>> unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal
conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then >>>>>>> heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required. >>>>>>>
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most >>>>>>> users don't seem to do that.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a fixed reduction. >>>>
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine braking, is a >>>> wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as the smaller
roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a few miles and
5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of the longer but >>>> closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and so on, but
even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be particularly
demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes quickly, and >>>> likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though perhaps
taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick grind but
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as
well as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on
drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with >>>>>> cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and >>>>>> indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year
as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in >>>>>> soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish >>>>>> at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with
brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my
(gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
is clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and has been the >>>> wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley
that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to
cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming causes
drought', you need only wait a minute for relief. I'm assisting that
with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that 'Global Warming
causes drought'. The claim is 'Global Warming exaggerates weather
extremes', which is drought for a few years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of tornadoes and more
winters with -40 where snow falls further south ;-)
Yes, we do indeed have winters with excessive snow. And winters with
scant snow. There are years with extended brutal cold and winters which
are mild. We have years with more tornados and years with fewer. In Wisconsin, what we do not have is Global Warming.
Oh, and about that purported 'climate change':
https://www.americanthinker.com/ blog/2014/08/120_years_of_climate_scares.html#ixzz61lNpThFF
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 09:32:30 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 13:50:32 -0000 (UTC),
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
Is there any kind of way to put a shim inside the derailer
clamp on the drive side of the seat post to move it
slightly outboard? Maybe that would compromise the
clamping.
Thoughts on a shim? Crazy?
Oh, I also meant to ask what you thought of going back to the
old Ultegra derailer with the new shift lever? It obviously
has enough extension to work well with the large ring, and the
lever arm looks to be about the same length as the new Tiagra.
I don't know.
Quick to just install it and see.
LOL. Quick, for someone who knows what they're doing.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 09:50:20 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/20/2025 8:28 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost likeAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with
that. To the above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain
because of the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to
replace brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely
uses its brakes.)
electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem,
because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done
more often than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the
mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a
2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that
problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a
software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would
temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with
just friction braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember
if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver
had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on
how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been
happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the
accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the
scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems
to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better
fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as
rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating
might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
the larger size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if
the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or
hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the
battery is full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full,
and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely
required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all
the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone
has prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or
fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T
plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and
even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular
for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger
cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a
fairly unlikely scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe.
Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical
brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs
are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under
ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could,
in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are
little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection
of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears",
ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is
required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be
driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an
issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
gears, on steep
terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a
fixed reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine
braking, is a wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as
the smaller roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a
few miles and 5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of
the longer but
closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and
so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be
particularly demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes
quickly, and
likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though
perhaps taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not
work as well as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill,
relying on drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably
quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine
problems and indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one
car per year as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty
discs even in soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill!
It’s 25% ish at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st
gear with brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty
discs on my (gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of
year.
grind but is clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and
has been the
wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the
valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly
painful to cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming
causes drought', you need only wait a minute for relief.
I'm assisting that with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that 'Global
Warming causes drought'. The claim is 'Global Warming
exaggerates weather extremes', which is drought for a few
years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of tornadoes
and more winters with -40 where snow falls further south ;-)
Yes, we do indeed have winters with excessive snow. And
winters with scant snow. There are years with extended
brutal cold and winters which are mild. We have years with
more tornados and years with fewer. In Wisconsin, what we do
not have is Global Warming.
Oh, and about that purported 'climate change':
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/08/120_years_of_climate_scares.html#ixzz61lNpThFF
On the other hand the seas are rising -
Florida's Sea Level Is Rising
And It's Costing Over $4 Billion
https://sealevelrise.org/states/florida/
Am 20.03.2025 um 15:50 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/20/2025 8:28 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost likeAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with
that. To the above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain
because of the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have
to replace brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely
uses its brakes.)
electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem,
because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work
done more often than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply
the mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a
2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that
problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a
software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would
temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with
just friction braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't
remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver
had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details
on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've
been happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the
accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the
scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it
seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better
fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as
rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric
heating might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
to the larger size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if
the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or
hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if
the battery is full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full,
and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely
required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them
all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone
has prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or
fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car
2T plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton,
and even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained
popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on
passenger cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a
fairly unlikely scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe.
Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the
mechanical brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty
discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective
under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could,
in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are
little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat
rejection of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the
gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement
is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can*
be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an
issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
gears, on steep
terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a
fixed reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine
braking, is a wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which
as the smaller roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a
few miles and 5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of
the longer but
closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners
and so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be
particularly demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up
brakes quickly, and
likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though
perhaps taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will
not work as well as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill,
relying on drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably
quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine
problems and indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one
car per year as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty
discs even in soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill!
It’s 25% ish at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st
gear with brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty
discs on my (gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time
of year.
quick grind but is clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy
and has been the
wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of
the valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly
painful to cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global
Warming causes drought', you need only wait a minute for
relief. I'm assisting that with my four carburetors.
You're welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that
'Global Warming causes drought'. The claim is 'Global
Warming exaggerates weather extremes', which is drought
for a few years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of
tornadoes and more winters with -40 where snow falls
further south ;-)
Yes, we do indeed have winters with excessive snow. And
winters with scant snow. There are years with extended
brutal cold and winters which are mild. We have years with
more tornados and years with fewer.
Right; this is due to the wanderings of the Jet Stream (Jet
Stream in Wisnconsin brings snow in Wisconsin, Jet Stream
300 miles further south like 1997 brings show in Iowa and
arctic air with -40 degrees and very little snow in
Minnesota and Wisconsin).
The main energy source of the Jet Stream is the temperature
differential between the arctic region. This temperature
differential has reduced a lot in the last two decades. The
exact impact of this is not understood yet. https://news.uchicago.edu/story/jet-stream-will-get-faster- climate-change-continues-study-finds
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>> plasticusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than >>>>>>> they
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size?s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge
rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don?t need to drive aggressively, just don?t use the gears, on steep
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn?t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
terrain, of which there is plenty where I?m from.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche and Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels. https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 3/19/2025 10:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the >>>>>>>>>> above, itusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often >>>>>>>>> than they
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>>> plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction >>>>>>>> braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do >>>>>>>> something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the >>>>>>> application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size?s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge >>>>>> rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is >>>>>> full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not
usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don?t need to drive aggressively, just don?t use the gears, on steep >>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I?m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the >>>>>> past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you >>>>>> could get
brake fad if you didn?t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely >>>>>> scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for
unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then >>>>> heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most >>>>> users don't seem to do that.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche
and Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/
comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
My point was that they don't have multiple ratios, as roger inferred
with "just don't use the gears" which I read as 'don't shift the gears'.
Of course with a fixed reduction system, it's not possible to _not_ use
the gears.
Sorry yes should, of been clearer I was switching between EV and ICE cars.
And yes EV tend to have a fixed reduction, vs ICE cars multiple ratios due
to the difference in torque and how it?s delivered, ie EV tend not to need multiple ratios.
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>> plasticusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than >>>>>>> they
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size?s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge
rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don?t need to drive aggressively, just don?t use the gears, on steep
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn?t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
terrain, of which there is plenty where I?m from.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche and Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels. https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
On Wed Mar 19 10:39:49 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>>> plasticusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than >>>>>>>>> they
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size?s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge >>>>>> rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>>>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance >>>>> tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don?t need to drive aggressively, just don?t use the gears, on steep
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn?t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>>>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>>>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
terrain, of which there is plenty where I?m from.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche and >>> Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
Because EV's use step down gears rather than the step up of ICE, that is one of the fastest wearing components of an EV. But since you don't change gears on an EV, gear wear is minimal and the wear is almost entirely on the bearings.
We estimate Teslas new carbon sleeved motor has a 23,308 RPM redline@200 MPH compared to the P100D redline of 18000 RPM@155 MPH, as well as gear ratios the same as P100D.
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>> plasticusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than >>>>>>> they
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size?s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge
rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don?t need to drive aggressively, just don?t use the gears, on steep
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn?t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
terrain, of which there is plenty where I?m from.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche and Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels. https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
As discussed here earlier, the 'sea level rise' of San
Francisco Bay area is actually geologic subsidence. The
orogeny is several hundred miles east).
On Wed Mar 19 10:39:49 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>>> plasticusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than >>>>>>>>> they
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction
braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size?s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge >>>>>> rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is
full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>>>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance >>>>> tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don?t need to drive aggressively, just don?t use the gears, on steep
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the
past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you
could get
brake fad if you didn?t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely
scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>>>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>>>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
terrain, of which there is plenty where I?m from.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche and >>> Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
Because EV's use step down gears rather than the step up of ICE, that is one of the fastest wearing components of an EV.
But since you don't change gears on an EV, gear wear is minimal and the wear is almost entirely on the bearings.
We estimate Teslas new carbon sleeved motor has a 23,308 RPM redline@200 MPH compared to the P100D redline of 18000 RPM@155 MPH, as well as gear ratios the same as P100D.
On 3/20/2025 10:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 09:50:20 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/20/2025 8:28 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming
causes drought', you need only wait a minute for relief.
I'm assisting that with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that 'Global
Warming causes drought'. The claim is 'Global Warming
exaggerates weather extremes', which is drought for a few
years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of tornadoes
and more winters with -40 where snow falls further south ;-)
Yes, we do indeed have winters with excessive snow. And
winters with scant snow. There are years with extended
brutal cold and winters which are mild. We have years with
more tornados and years with fewer. In Wisconsin, what we do
not have is Global Warming.
Oh, and about that purported 'climate change':
https://www.americanthinker.com/
blog/2014/08/120_years_of_climate_scares.html#ixzz61lNpThFF
On the other hand the seas are rising -
Florida's Sea Level Is Rising
And It's Costing Over $4 Billion
https://sealevelrise.org/states/florida/
I don't know about Florida.
As discussed here earlier, the 'sea level rise' of San Francisco Bay
area is actually geologic subsidence.
The orogeny is several hundred
miles east).
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 10:52:41 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
As discussed here earlier, the 'sea level rise' of San
Francisco Bay area is actually geologic subsidence. The
orogeny is several hundred miles east).
Agreed. I think we went through this previously when Tom claimed that
he didn't see any sea level rise on a nearby pier or pilings.
Searching...
(Feb 15, 2022) <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/4n0Lzpp8Lxc/m/kNt7yjkoBgAJ> "The local TV station had a program about the building of the San
Francisco sea wall which was built to allow the filling in of what
became the financial district in San Francisco. After years of
claiming sea level rise, in the old photos and even films you could
plainly see NO CHANGE in sea level in 100 years."
100 years at the current rate of about 2 mm/year = 200 mm (7.8 inches)
sea level rise. Somehow, I suspect that seeing that small a rise in
old photos and files might be rather difficult.
More:
"Global climate change and local land subsidence exacerbate inundation
risk to the San Francisco Bay Area" <https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9234>
"Most of the Pacific shorelines and areas adjacent to the San
Francisco Bay are subject to subsidence at less than ~2 mm/year.
Portions of Treasure Island, San Francisco, San Francisco
International Airport, and Foster City are subsiding as fast as 10 mm/year..."
"Satellite survey shows California's sinking coastal hotspots" <https://phys.org/news/2020-07-satellite-survey-california-coastal-hotspots.html>
"Land subsidence can occur due to natural and anthropogenic processes
or a combination of them. The natural processes comprise tectonics,
glacial isostatic adjustment, sediment loading, and soil compaction.
The anthropogenic causes include groundwater extraction and oil and
gas production."
"Tracking California’s sinking coast from space: Implications for
relative sea-level rise"
<https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aba4551>
"The subsidence around the banks of the San Francisco Bay (Fig. 3A) is largely influenced by the tectonics of the region, primarily the San
Andreas Fault. It also is influenced by sediment compaction of the
landfill and Bay Mud deposits..."
On 3/20/2025 8:28 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger >>>>>>>> size’s as
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the >>>>>>>>>>>> above, itAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>>>> barely
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of >>>>>>>>>>>> the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace >>>>>>>>>>>> brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its >>>>>>>>>>>> brakes.)
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the >>>>>>>>>>> disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done more often >>>>>>>>>>> than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical >>>>>>>>>>> brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change >>>>>>>>>> that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily >>>>>>>>>> turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction >>>>>>>>>> braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do >>>>>>>>>> something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy
enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>> the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the >>>>>>>>> application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but
invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has >>>>>>>> somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and
charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is >>>>>>>> full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not >>>>>>> usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but
performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has
prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>>>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in
the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so
you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy
goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I >>>>>>> think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely >>>>>>>> scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric
vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for >>>>>>> unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal
conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then >>>>>>> heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc
brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required. >>>>>>>
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most >>>>>>> users don't seem to do that.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a fixed reduction. >>>>
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine braking, is a >>>> wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as the smaller
roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a few miles and
5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of the longer but >>>> closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and so on, but
even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be particularly
demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes quickly, and >>>> likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though perhaps
taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick grind but
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as
well as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on
drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with >>>>>> cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and >>>>>> indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year
as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in >>>>>> soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish >>>>>> at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with
brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my
(gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
is clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and has been the >>>> wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley
that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to
cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming causes
drought', you need only wait a minute for relief. I'm assisting that
with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that 'Global Warming
causes drought'. The claim is 'Global Warming exaggerates weather
extremes', which is drought for a few years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of tornadoes and more
winters with -40 where snow falls further south ;-)
Yes, we do indeed have winters with excessive snow. And winters with
scant snow. There are years with extended brutal cold and winters which
are mild. We have years with more tornados and years with fewer. In Wisconsin, what we do not have is Global Warming.
Oh, and about that purported 'climate change':
https://www.americanthinker.com/ blog/2014/08/120_years_of_climate_scares.html#ixzz61lNpThFF
On 3/20/2025 11:44 AM, cyclintom wrote:
On Wed Mar 19 10:39:49 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/19/2025 9:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 3/18/2025 5:32 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the >>>>>>>>>>> plasticusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than >>>>>>>>>> they
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake >>>>>>>>>>> pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction >>>>>>>>> braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do >>>>>>>>> something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the >>>>>>>> application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
size?s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has
somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge >>>>>>> rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is >>>>>>> full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>>>>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance >>>>>> tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>>>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don?t need to drive aggressively, just don?t use the gears, on steep >>>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I?m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the >>>>>>> past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you >>>>>>> could get
brake fad if you didn?t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely >>>>>>> scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>>>>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than >>>>>> safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then >>>>>> heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>>>>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most >>>>>> users don't seem to do that.
AFAIK EVs don't have "gears" (with a few notable exceptions, Porsche and >>>> Audi, I believe?)
They (typically?) have reduction gears. Their electric motors typically
spin at a much higher rpm than the wheels.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaNiroEV/comments/1iephd2/2023_kia_niro_wave_ev_reduction_gear_fluid_change/
Because EV's use step down gears rather than the step up of ICE, that is
one of the fastest wearing components of an EV. But since you don't
change gears on an EV, gear wear is minimal and the wear is almost
entirely on the bearings.
We estimate Teslas new carbon sleeved motor has a 23,308 RPM redline@200
MPH compared to the P100D redline of 18000 RPM@155 MPH, as well as gear
ratios the same as P100D.
All my gasoline powered autos gear down from engine rpm to
wheels.
On 3/20/2025 2:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 10:52:41 -0500, AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
As discussed here earlier, the 'sea level rise' of San
Francisco Bay area is actually geologic subsidence. The
orogeny is several hundred miles east).
Agreed.
Um, disagreed. I don't doubt that SF sees some subsidence.
But that doesn't make it immune to the main cause of sea
level rise.
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/ climate-change-global-sea-level
On 3/20/2025 11:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 09:50:20 -0500, AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/20/2025 8:28 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.03.2025 um 01:26 schrieb AMuzi:
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost likeAccording to a couple of my cow-orkers with
that. To the above, it
added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain
because of the plastic
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to
replace brake pads,
and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely
uses its brakes.)
electric vehicles,
barely
using the mechanical brakes can be a problem,
because the disks are
always rusty. They report having brake work done
more often than they
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the
mechanical brakes
every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a
2022 model, and
maybe six months ago I started witnessing that
problem. It's my
understanding that the 2023 models included a
software change that
easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would
temporarily turn off
regenerative braking, so after a few stops with
just friction braking,
the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember
if the car
selected that mode automatically or if the driver
had to set it.
Online discussions have given the quirky details on
how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been
happy enough by
occasionally applying the brakes as well as the
accelerator when
backing out of the driveway. I can hear the
scraping. I'm sure the
disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems
to be under
control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better
fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as
rusty, but invisibly,
which would not be an improvement. Electric heating
might even be
reasonable to keep them dry inside.
the larger size’s as
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if
the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or
hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the
battery is full or
close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full,
and it's not usually
cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely
required, but performance
tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all
the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone
has prewarmed them
cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or
fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T
plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and
even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular
for heavy goods
vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger
cars. I think
there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a
fairly unlikely scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe.
Electric vehicles,
conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical
brakes for unusual
or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs
are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under
ideal conditions
but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could,
in practice, be
safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are
little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection
of disc brakes is
not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears",
ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is
required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be
driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an
issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
gears, on steep
terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
What are these "gears"?
In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a
fixed reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine
braking, is a wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as
the smaller roads
are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a
few miles and 5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of
the longer but
closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and
so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be
particularly demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes
quickly, and
likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though
perhaps taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not
work as well as its
cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill,
relying on drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably
quickly with cars
half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine
problems and indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one
car per year as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty
discs even in soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill!
It’s 25% ish at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st
gear with brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty
discs on my (gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of
year.
grind but is clear
after first application, london is on the whole soggy and
has been the
wettest 12 months on record apparently!
All of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the
valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly
painful to cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming
causes drought', you need only wait a minute for relief.
I'm assisting that with my four carburetors. You're
welcome.
I've neverd heared of a "Green religion" claim that 'Global
Warming causes drought'. The claim is 'Global Warming
exaggerates weather extremes', which is drought for a few
years followed by flash floods.
In Wisconsin we only offer doubling the number of tornadoes
and more winters with -40 where snow falls further
south ;-)
Yes, we do indeed have winters with excessive snow. And
winters with scant snow. There are years with extended
brutal cold and winters which are mild. We have years with
more tornados and years with fewer. In Wisconsin, what we do
not have is Global Warming.
Oh, and about that purported 'climate change':
https://www.americanthinker.com/
blog/2014/08/120_years_of_climate_scares.html#ixzz61lNpThFF
On the other hand the seas are rising -
Florida's Sea Level Is Rising
And It's Costing Over $4 Billion
https://sealevelrise.org/states/florida/
And it _should_ be hard to ignore the fact that glaciers'
ice volume is decreasing worldwide, almost without exception.
On 3/20/2025 8:56 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 13:50:32 -0000 (UTC),
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
Oh, I also meant to ask what you thought of going back to the
old Ultegra derailer with the new shift lever? It obviously
has enough extension to work well with the large ring, and the
lever arm looks to be about the same length as the new Tiagra.
I don't know.
Quick to just install it and see.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 09:32:30 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/20/2025 8:56 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 13:50:32 -0000 (UTC),
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
Oh, I also meant to ask what you thought of going back to the
old Ultegra derailer with the new shift lever? It obviously
has enough extension to work well with the large ring, and the
lever arm looks to be about the same length as the new Tiagra.
I don't know.
Quick to just install it and see.
So in the way of an update, I put the old Ultegra front derailer
on this morning, and found it seems to work quite well with the
new Tiagra shift lever. This combination even has more outward
extension than needed, and I had to bring in the limit screw to
keep it from throwing the chain off the big ring.
It's slightly finicky about going from big to middle (a 50 to 39
jump, but seems to go onto the small ring easily. This is all in
the stand, so we'll see how it does on the road when the weather
gets a bit warmer (and less windy, I hope!).
Thanks again to Andrew for sharing your exceptional wisdom.
On 3/21/2025 8:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/20/2025 11:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And it _should_ be hard to ignore the fact that glaciers'
ice volume is decreasing worldwide, almost without
exception.
Change, in both directions, is normal:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145185/major-
greenland-glacier- is-growing
https://www.severe-weather.eu/cryosphere/earth-youngest-
glacier-healthy- cryosphere-losing-battle-global-warming-rrc/
As usual, you're basing your thinking on rare exceptions.
From your second article:
"The European Alps, for instance, represents one of the
world’s areas with the largest glacier loss. This is mainly
due to longer and warmer summers, which triggered increased
melting. Between 1850 and 1975, glaciers in the European
Alps lost about half of their volume. Another 25% of the
remaining amount melted between 1975 and 2000 and 10-15%
more in the first 5 years of the century."
From https://skepticalscience.com/himalayan-glaciers-
growing.htm
"With any glacier, its status in terms of whether it is
gaining or losing mass is termed its 'mass balance'. Mass
balance is a mathematical expression of whether a glacier is
retreating or advancing. It is based on various careful and
long established measurement techniques, Unfortunately, mass
balance measurements tell us that a very high percentage of
Earth's mountain glaciers are in retreat. It is wrong to
single out the few glaciers that are growing in the face of
the overall trend of steep decline, in order to argue there
is no global warming. It's the scientific sin of cherry-
picking."
Let's repeat:
"It is wrong to single out the few glaciers that are growing
in the face of the overall trend of steep decline, in order
to argue there is no global warming. It's the scientific sin
of cherry-picking."
On 3/21/2025 10:54 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
So in the way of an update, I put the old Ultegra front
derailer on this morning, and found it seems to work quite
well with the new Tiagra shift lever. This combination even
has more outward extension than needed, and I had to bring in
the limit screw to keep it from throwing the chain off the big
ring.
It's slightly finicky about going from big to middle (a 50 to
39 jump, but seems to go onto the small ring easily. This is
all in the stand, so we'll see how it does on the road when
the weather gets a bit warmer (and less windy, I hope!).
Thanks again to Andrew for sharing your exceptional wisdom.
Which model Ultegra Triple (FD-6???) do you have?
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 11:24:11 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 3/21/2025 10:54 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
So in the way of an update, I put the old Ultegra front
derailer on this morning, and found it seems to work quite
well with the new Tiagra shift lever. This combination even
has more outward extension than needed, and I had to bring in
the limit screw to keep it from throwing the chain off the big
ring.
It's slightly finicky about going from big to middle (a 50 to
39 jump, but seems to go onto the small ring easily. This is
all in the stand, so we'll see how it does on the road when
the weather gets a bit warmer (and less windy, I hope!).
Thanks again to Andrew for sharing your exceptional wisdom.
Which model Ultegra Triple (FD-6???) do you have?
I really don't know. It came with the bike new in 2012, and all
the dealer said was "Ultegra". Before I put it on this morning I
cleaned it up thoroughly and saw no other markings than "Ultegra."
Is there a way to tell, other than educated guessing based on the
vintage?
Which model Ultegra Triple (FD-6???) do you have?
The part number is stamped on the inner face of the cage (for
all Shimano front changers)
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 16:29:06 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which model Ultegra Triple (FD-6???) do you have?
The part number is stamped on the inner face of the cage (for
all Shimano front changers)
Huh, who knew? I thought I'd looked it over very carefully, but
clearly did not. I'm such a dumbass.
It's FD-6703.
On 3/19/2025 7:00 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:In a ICE car gearbox, clearly most EV only have one, a fixed
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> writes:
Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:Considering the weight of modern cars and EV tend to the larger size’s as
On 3/16/2025 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Our previous car, a Mazda 3, was almost like that. To the above, it >>>>>>>>>> added changing oil and filter (a bit of a pain because of the plasticusing the mechanical brakes can be a problem, because the disks are >>>>>>>>> always rusty. They report having brake work done more often than they
under-panels that needed removed). I did have to replace brake pads, >>>>>>>>>> and do some minor brake repair. (The EV barely uses its brakes.) >>>>>>>>> According to a couple of my cow-orkers with electric vehicles, >>>>>>>>> barely
recall for internal combustion vehicles.
One would think the software would just apply the mechanical brakes >>>>>>>>> every once in a while, but it seems otherwise.
Your mileage may vary.
You're correct about the rusty disks. My car is a 2022 model, and >>>>>>>> maybe six months ago I started witnessing that problem. It's my >>>>>>>> understanding that the 2023 models included a software change that >>>>>>>> easily enabled disk scrubbing. That mode would temporarily turn off >>>>>>>> regenerative braking, so after a few stops with just friction braking, >>>>>>>> the disks would be polished clean. I don't remember if the car >>>>>>>> selected that mode automatically or if the driver had to set it. >>>>>>>>
Online discussions have given the quirky details on how to do
something similar with my car, but so far I've been happy enough by >>>>>>>> occasionally applying the brakes as well as the accelerator when >>>>>>>> backing out of the driveway. I can hear the scraping. I'm sure the >>>>>>>> disks aren't perfectly clean of rust, but it seems to be under >>>>>>>> control. I'll check when weather gets better.
One has to wonder if drum brakes might be a better fit for the
application. I suppose they might get just as rusty, but invisibly, >>>>>>> which would not be an improvement. Electric heating might even be >>>>>>> reasonable to keep them dry inside.
space for batteries.
And that regeneration though powerful only works if the it has somewhere to
transfer the power to, so if the battery is cold or hot, and charge rate is
low the braking performance would decrease and if the battery is full or >>>>>> close to, it has nowhere to regen to.
True, but the battery is hardly ever actually full, and it's not usually >>>>> cold or hot. Mechanical brakes are absolutely required, but performance >>>>> tradeoffs are different to vehicles that use them all the time.
The battery will be cold upon starting unless someone has prewarmed them >>>> cold, and as most EV owners charge at home full or fairly full.
Don’t need to drive aggressively, just don’t use the gears, on steep >>>> terrain, of which there is plenty where I’m from.
Which would leave the drum brakes to handle a car 2T plus, in the past with
drums cars where certainly in uk less than a ton, and even so you could get
brake fad if you didn’t use the gears on the hills.
In the US (air operated) drum brakes remained popular for heavy goods >>>>> vehicles long after discs became standard on passenger cars. I think >>>>> there are still quite a lot of them on the road.
So I can absolutely see why car makers even if a fairly unlikely scenario
would play safe!
The trouble is figuring out what is actually safe. Electric vehicles, >>>>> conservatively driven, essentially use the mechanical brakes for unusual >>>>> or even emergency braking. In that role, rusty discs are less than
safe. A brake that was slightly less effective under ideal conditions >>>>> but more likely to be near peak effectiveness could, in practice, be >>>>> safer and more predictable.
Brake fade is caused by heating; if the brakes are little used then
heating is not a problem and the better heat rejection of disc brakes is >>>>> not an advantage. Electric vehicles "use the gears", ie brake
regeneratively, by default. No skill or judgement is required.
It is certainly true that an electric vehicle *can* be driven
aggressively to the point where brake heating is an issue, but most
users don't seem to do that.
What are these "gears"?
reduction.
Certainly in the area I’m from, learning to use engine braking, is a
wise
choice to prevent cooking brakes and brake fade which as the smaller roads >> are steep can happen relatively quickly.
Obviously larger dual carriageway type roads even if a few miles and
5/10%
aren’t particularly taxing on brakes, and even some of the longer but
closer to 10% roads yes you need to brake for corners and so on, but even
so, unless you drive aggressively doesn’t seem to be particularly demanding
it’s the 20% give or take stuff that will heat up brakes quickly, and
likewise engines on cold days if one drives up, though perhaps taking it
relatively easy.
I only use my car once a week or so, tends to have quick grind but is clear >> after first application, london is on the whole soggy and has been the
Which leads to the possibility that the regen will not work as well as its >>>> cold/and fairly full and your driving down the hill, relying on drum brakes
which quite frankly one could cook ie fade remarkably quickly with cars >>>> half the weight of modern cars, it’s not easy imagine problems and indeed
lawsuits!
The steepest of the hills seems to average about one car per year as it is!
The neighbours with the EV I’m sure don’t have rusty discs even in soggy
wales, and I know enjoy its torque back up the hill! It’s 25% ish at peak,
cars and bikes are equal in there gear useage ie 1st gear with brief bursts
into 2nd when it’s *only* 13% or so!
I guess the climate is different. I get audibly rusty discs on my (gas
powered) car if it sits for a day or two at this time of year.
wettest 12 months on record apparently!
Roger MerrimanAll of the roads are similar, is one on the edge of the valley that’s peaks
at 35% and averages 28% between two corners, fairly painful to cycle up and
type 2 sort of fun as you where!
Roger Merriman
Well since the Green Religion teaches that 'Global Warming causes
drought', you need only wait a minute for relief. I'm assisting that
with my four carburetors. You're welcome.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 498 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 42:06:42 |
| Calls: | 9,799 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 13,752 |
| Messages: | 6,189,581 |
