On 5/5/2025 8:33 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Just had my old bike light repaired for £20 which considering its
replacement cost seems more than worth it.
And I do like that Exposure Lights whose lights are MTB or off road focus
mostly have a we will repair it if you manage to break it!
Ie it’s not a black box that is disposable.
Sort of related is Hovding helmet or rather I guess non helmet
<https://bikerumor.com/hovding-airbag-helmet-brand-deflates-w-bankruptcy-filing-following-overturned-recall/>
<https://youtu.be/HS9Q6D992M4?si=6uKvsagMPgeCbrBV>
Which came up on YouTube and Berm Peak, and as Seth says I’ve never thought
about having to charge my Helmet or so on, and with the app now dead much
like some other bikes with app stores that have gone bankrupt your rather
stuffed.
Seems like Hovding saw this cartoon: https://sheldonbrown.com/airbag-helmet.html
and said "Ooh, what a good idea!!"
I do have some skepticism about devices which are so dependent on electronics, software, etc. But it's the world we now live in.
On 5/6/2025 8:17 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 5/5/2025 8:33 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:I think it’s the timing aspect as Seth says, ie when helmets became
Just had my old bike light repaired for £20 which considering its
replacement cost seems more than worth it.
And I do like that Exposure Lights whose lights are MTB or off road focus >>>> mostly have a we will repair it if you manage to break it!
Ie it’s not a black box that is disposable.
Sort of related is Hovding helmet or rather I guess non helmet
<https://bikerumor.com/hovding-airbag-helmet-brand-deflates-w-bankruptcy-filing-following-overturned-recall/>
<https://youtu.be/HS9Q6D992M4?si=6uKvsagMPgeCbrBV>
Which came up on YouTube and Berm Peak, and as Seth says I’ve never thought
about having to charge my Helmet or so on, and with the app now dead much >>>> like some other bikes with app stores that have gone bankrupt your rather >>>> stuffed.
Seems like Hovding saw this cartoon:
https://sheldonbrown.com/airbag-helmet.html
and said "Ooh, what a good idea!!"
mainstream ish, plus modern helmets are lot more comfortable and just
invisible in use.
Does seem to have some interesting technology though which hopefully can be >> used, further down the line in some applications.
The technology is sort of interesting, but it's still nothing I'd ever consider using, for multiple reasons.
ISTR hearing of incidents in which Hovding owners put their jackets on quickly or made other sudden benign moves and had the airbag helmet
inflate. And I guess when that happens, you buy a new one - which is far
from cheap!
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on
are fun, theyd like some buttons still please and so on.
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses." <https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
On 5/7/2025 11:38 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and
so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-
back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
No electronics works for me.
I have owned cars with a 110v type wall switch on the dash and a starter button next to it.
From what I have seen I could not possibly drive a 2025 model auto.
On 5/7/2025 12:02 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:46 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/7/2025 11:38 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has
been a push back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while
screens and so on
are fun, theyd like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are
worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers
hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming
to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-
switching- back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen
menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on
the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to
read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you
might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens,
haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have
their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality
rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and
settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
No electronics works for me.
I have owned cars with a 110v type wall switch on the dash
and a starter button next to it.
From what I have seen I could not possibly drive a 2025
model auto.
I'm sure you could figure it out. Whether you want to or not
is a different issue entirely.
Maybe. Maybe not.
Girlfriend's new car came with one of those square
tetris-ish symbols on the glovebox door instead of an
owner's manual. One is supposed to use a portable telephone
with that to access the cloud-based manual.
Words fail.
On 5/7/2025 12:46 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/7/2025 11:38 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has
been a push back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while
screens and so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are
worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers
hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming
to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-
switching- back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen
menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on
the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to
read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you
might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens,
haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have
their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality
rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and
settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
No electronics works for me.
I have owned cars with a 110v type wall switch on the dash
and a starter button next to it.
From what I have seen I could not possibly drive a 2025
model auto.
I'm sure you could figure it out. Whether you want to or not
is a different issue entirely.
On 5/7/2025 11:38 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>> are fun, theyd like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
No electronics works for me.
I have owned cars with a 110v type wall switch on the dash
and a starter button next to it.
From what I have seen I could not possibly drive a 2025
model auto.
On Wed May 7 09:38:45 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >> >are fun, they?d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
Liebermann, how many touch screen cars do you have?
On 5/7/2025 11:38 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>> are fun, theyd like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
No electronics works for me.
I have owned cars with a 110v type wall switch on the dash
and a starter button next to it.
From what I have seen I could not possibly drive a 2025
model auto.
On Wed, 07 May 2025 18:36:05 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Wed May 7 09:38:45 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>>> are fun, they?d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
Liebermann, how many touch screen cars do you have?
None. Why do you ask?
Did any of these cars use manual push buttons and switches? <https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/>
"I got a severe concussion in 2010 that led to a type of seizures that
I didn't remember afterwards. This wasn't discovered and treated
properly until 2012 after 4 car wrecks luckily without any injuries"
If these conventional controls were at least partly responsible for
your 4 car wrecks, you should try driving a car with a touch screen to
see if that improves your safety record.
On 5/7/2025 8:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2025 18:36:05 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Wed May 7 09:38:45 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>>>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>>>> are fun, they?d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
Liebermann, how many touch screen cars do you have?
None. Why do you ask?
Did any of these cars use manual push buttons and switches?
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/> >> "I got a severe concussion in 2010 that led to a type of seizures that
I didn't remember afterwards. This wasn't discovered and treated
properly until 2012 after 4 car wrecks luckily without any injuries"
If these conventional controls were at least partly responsible for
your 4 car wrecks, you should try driving a car with a touch screen to
see if that improves your safety record.
AFAIK he's still driving a car with no touch screen.
On Thu, 8 May 2025 07:55:10 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 5/7/2025 8:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2025 18:36:05 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Wed May 7 09:38:45 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote: >>>>>
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>>>>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on
are fun, they?d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than >>>>> being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing >>>>> motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the >>>>> reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback, >>>>> voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and >>>>> bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident >>>>> rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
Liebermann, how many touch screen cars do you have?
None. Why do you ask?
Did any of these cars use manual push buttons and switches?
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/> >>> "I got a severe concussion in 2010 that led to a type of seizures that
I didn't remember afterwards. This wasn't discovered and treated
properly until 2012 after 4 car wrecks luckily without any injuries"
If these conventional controls were at least partly responsible for
your 4 car wrecks, you should try driving a car with a touch screen to
see if that improves your safety record.
AFAIK he's still driving a car with no touch screen.
Tom claimed to have at least 3 different models of Ford Taurus or
Taurus-X, some of which may have had an early model (2007 and up) Ford
SYNC system:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Sync>
or an aftermarket touch screen:
"Ford Taurus touchscreens" <https://www.google.com/search?q=ford%20taurus%20touchscreen&udm=2>
Much depends on determining the exact year of the 4 vehicles that Tom
had wrecked:
(Aug 16, 2023) <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/AakEwPY_PTw/m/SkzXdWPDAQAJ> "I don't see how he could drive the 2012 Taurus in 2017 and in 2022 (5
years later) be driving a 2008 Taurus X, unless he first destroyed the
2012 Taurus."
On Thu, 8 May 2025 07:55:10 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 5/7/2025 8:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2025 18:36:05 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Wed May 7 09:38:45 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote: >>>>>
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>>>>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on
are fun, they?d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than >>>>> being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing >>>>> motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the >>>>> reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback, >>>>> voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and >>>>> bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident >>>>> rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
Liebermann, how many touch screen cars do you have?
None. Why do you ask?
Did any of these cars use manual push buttons and switches?
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/> >>> "I got a severe concussion in 2010 that led to a type of seizures that
I didn't remember afterwards. This wasn't discovered and treated
properly until 2012 after 4 car wrecks luckily without any injuries"
If these conventional controls were at least partly responsible for
your 4 car wrecks, you should try driving a car with a touch screen to
see if that improves your safety record.
AFAIK he's still driving a car with no touch screen.
Tom claimed to have at least 3 different models of Ford Taurus or
Taurus-X, some of which may have had an early model (2007 and up) Ford
SYNC system:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Sync>
or an aftermarket touch screen:
"Ford Taurus touchscreens" <https://www.google.com/search?q=ford%20taurus%20touchscreen&udm=2>
Much depends on determining the exact year of the 4 vehicles that Tom
had wrecked:
(Aug 16, 2023) <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/AakEwPY_PTw/m/SkzXdWPDAQAJ> "I don't see how he could drive the 2012 Taurus in 2017 and in 2022 (5
years later) be driving a 2008 Taurus X, unless he first destroyed the
2012 Taurus."
On 5/8/2025 12:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2025 07:55:10 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 5/7/2025 8:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2025 18:36:05 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Wed May 7 09:38:45 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote: >>>>>>
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on
are fun, they?d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than >>>>>> being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing >>>>>> motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the >>>>>> reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback, >>>>>> voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and >>>>>> bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident >>>>>> rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the >>>>>> least disgusting and most tolerable method.
Liebermann, how many touch screen cars do you have?
None. Why do you ask?
Did any of these cars use manual push buttons and switches?
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/> >>>> "I got a severe concussion in 2010 that led to a type of seizures that >>>> I didn't remember afterwards. This wasn't discovered and treated
properly until 2012 after 4 car wrecks luckily without any injuries"
If these conventional controls were at least partly responsible for
your 4 car wrecks, you should try driving a car with a touch screen to >>>> see if that improves your safety record.
AFAIK he's still driving a car with no touch screen.
Tom claimed to have at least 3 different models of Ford Taurus or
Taurus-X, some of which may have had an early model (2007 and up) Ford
SYNC system:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Sync>
or an aftermarket touch screen:
"Ford Taurus touchscreens"
<https://www.google.com/search?q=ford%20taurus%20touchscreen&udm=2>
Much depends on determining the exact year of the 4 vehicles that Tom
had wrecked:
(Aug 16, 2023)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/AakEwPY_PTw/m/SkzXdWPDAQAJ> >> "I don't see how he could drive the 2012 Taurus in 2017 and in 2022 (5
years later) be driving a 2008 Taurus X, unless he first destroyed the
2012 Taurus."
That doesn't explain the Kia Soul in his driveway (as far back as 2018 >according to google street view).
Girlfriend's new car came with one of those square tetris-ish symbols on
the glovebox door instead of an owner's manual. One is supposed to use a portable telephone with that to access the cloud-based manual.
Words fail.
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses." <https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
My 2001 Subaru is 49 years old. I've owned and driven it for 41
years.
On 5/7/2025 8:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
My 2001 Subaru is 49 years old. I've owned and driven it for 41
years.
Hmm. Typos or time travel? :-)
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>> are fun, theyd like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a dense
row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was the third
one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded of
the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's lever
for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent lever for >"landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive hemispherical >rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the ones I push most
often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big improvement.
On 5/7/2025 1:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Girlfriend's new car came with one of those square tetris-ish symbols on
the glovebox door instead of an owner's manual. One is supposed to use a
portable telephone with that to access the cloud-based manual.
Words fail.
A few months ago some friends and I went in to a certain pub as we do at least once a month. That time we asked for a beer list. The waitress
said "Just use your phone. There's the QR code."
We did, but politely voiced our objection to the idea. Why should a
customer have to download their file onto a smartphone? Why should a smartphone even be required?
Others must have complained as well. Next time we visited we got a beer
list printed on actual paper.
On Thu, 8 May 2025 19:55:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 5/7/2025 8:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
My 2001 Subaru is 49 years old. I've owned and driven it for 41
years.
Hmm. Typos or time travel? :-)
Arithmetic error.
My Subaru was manufactured in 2001. I was not the original owner. I
bought it used in 2009 (with 65,000 miles on the odometer).
2025 - 2009 = 16 years of ownership (not 41 years).
Sorry(tm) and thanks for catching my mistake.
To err is human (Alexander Pope). I occasionally need to reassure
myself that I'm still human).
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>> are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a dense
row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was the third
one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded of
the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's lever
for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent lever for "landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive hemispherical rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the ones I push most
often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big improvement.
On 5/8/2025 7:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push
back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and
so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally- switching-
back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a
dense row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was
the third one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded
of the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's
lever for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent
lever for "landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive
hemispherical rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the
ones I push most often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big
improvement.
Agreed that different controls ought to be different in shape, style, format. I moved this heater fan switch from one car to another over the years. It's just below the dash of my Malibu now:
https://oldchevytrucks.com/pub/media/catalog/product/s/k/sku-images-el- el118_blower_switch_non_fresh.jpg? width=600&height=778&store=default&image-type=imagecamera
And isolated simplicity!
My shop truck has demons in the turn signal/wiper/washer/brights
switch. Can't ever turn off the wipers,
So I added a simple push button on top of the dash, wired through the
wiper fuse. The fast/slow function in the stalk still works.
I can't imagine scrolling through the menus of a touch screen trying to
clear sleet/salt/crud on the windscreen in freeway traffic.
On 5/8/2025 8:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/8/2025 7:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push
back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and
so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally- switching-
back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the >>>> reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a
dense row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was
the third one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch. >>>
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded
of the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's
lever for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent
lever for "landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive
hemispherical rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the
ones I push most often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big
improvement.
Agreed that different controls ought to be different in shape, style,
format. I moved this heater fan switch from one car to another over the
years. It's just below the dash of my Malibu now:
https://oldchevytrucks.com/pub/media/catalog/product/s/k/sku-images-el-
el118_blower_switch_non_fresh.jpg?
width=600&height=778&store=default&image-type=imagecamera
And isolated simplicity!
My shop truck has demons in the turn signal/wiper/washer/brights
switch. Can't ever turn off the wipers,
So I added a simple push button on top of the dash, wired through the
wiper fuse. The fast/slow function in the stalk still works.
I can't imagine scrolling through the menus of a touch screen trying to
clear sleet/salt/crud on the windscreen in freeway traffic.
I don't know this for a fact but I'm pretty sure windshield wiper
controls won't be found in a touch screen menu even on the newest cars.
It's invariably a stalk control.
For a time in the early 1980s I drove a beat-to-shit 1974 ford Capri (manufactured by ford of germany). It was a great, fun little coupe
except for the fact that it had extreme body rot. The linkage to this
thread is the windshield wiper control was activated activated by a
floor switch similar to the old american high-beam switch. However, the washer control was on the stalk along with the high beam switch.
I drove it for about a year until it wouldn't pass inspection due to the
body rot. I sold it for parts to someone who wanted the engine. I drove
it to the guys house with a friend following me. As I turned into the
buyers driveway, I heard a loud thud. When I got out of the car it was obvious the car was leaning heavily to the right side. We tried to pop
the hood, which seemed to be jammed (it wasn't before), and once it
released the car dropped another few inches. It turns out the right
front strut mount had completely rotted out and punched its way up
though the fender, where it was stopped by the hood until we released
the hood latch. The buyer chuckled because he just wanted the engine
which still ran great.
good times :)
On Thu, 8 May 2025 20:03:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>>> are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a dense
row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was the third
one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded of
the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's lever
for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent lever for
"landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
Nice idea, but there's a problem. Ralph Nader was able to identify
numerous safety hazards in the automobiles made in the late 1960's.
Among them is getting impaled or punctured by projecting knobs and
switches. Sorry, but flat and low profile are generally safer than
switches and controls with projecting levers.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive hemispherical
rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the ones I push most
often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big improvement.
Good idea, but why reinvent the wheel? You could have used
standardized Braille stickers instead. You'll also find Braille
stickers on ATM machines, elevators, roadside phones, some toys, etc.
Also, look into ELIA Frames, a Braille alternative: <https://theblindguide.com/braille-alternative-is-elia-frames/>
"ELIA Frames Font Explanation Video" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3If0ZWu7jHM>
"We have gone to great lengths testing and refining ELIA Frames to
maximize its learnability. Over 200,000 test subject responses were
collected and analyzed. The key design principle that was applied, in
order to leverage a person’s finger sensitivity, was to make each character’s design simple but unique, and to space each letter’s
features far apart enough that they can be easily recognized."
On 5/8/2025 8:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/8/2025 7:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has
been a push back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while
screens and so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving
are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers
hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is
coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-
switching- back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen
menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on
the road ahead
may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to
read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you
might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens,
haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have
their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality
rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and
settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while
driving. Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common
functions; but there's still a problem. Many switches are
flat, low profile and all in a dense row. Even if I did
memorize that something like "Defrost" was the third one
from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc.
molded in different shapes that gave a clue about their
function. I'm reminded of the increase in airplane safety
(in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's lever for "flaps" was
shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent lever for
"landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self
adhesive hemispherical rubber bumpers. I stuck those on
certain buttons, the ones I push most often, so I could
find them by touch. It was a big improvement.
Agreed that different controls ought to be different in
shape, style, format. I moved this heater fan switch from
one car to another over the years. It's just below the
dash of my Malibu now:
https://oldchevytrucks.com/pub/media/catalog/product/s/k/
sku-images-el- el118_blower_switch_non_fresh.jpg?
width=600&height=778&store=default&image-type=imagecamera
And isolated simplicity!
My shop truck has demons in the turn signal/wiper/washer/
brights switch. Can't ever turn off the wipers,
So I added a simple push button on top of the dash, wired
through the wiper fuse. The fast/slow function in the
stalk still works.
I can't imagine scrolling through the menus of a touch
screen trying to clear sleet/salt/crud on the windscreen
in freeway traffic.
I don't know this for a fact but I'm pretty sure windshield
wiper controls won't be found in a touch screen menu even on
the newest cars. It's invariably a stalk control.
For a time in the early 1980s I drove a beat-to-shit 1974
ford Capri (manufactured by ford of germany). It was a
great, fun little coupe except for the fact that it had
extreme body rot. The linkage to this thread is the
windshield wiper control was activated activated by a floor
switch similar to the old american high-beam switch.
However, the washer control was on the stalk along with the
high beam switch.
I drove it for about a year until it wouldn't pass
inspection due to the body rot. I sold it for parts to
someone who wanted the engine. I drove it to the guys house
with a friend following me. As I turned into the buyers
driveway, I heard a loud thud. When I got out of the car it
was obvious the car was leaning heavily to the right side.
We tried to pop the hood, which seemed to be jammed (it
wasn't before), and once it released the car dropped another
few inches. It turns out the right front strut mount had
completely rotted out and punched its way up though the
fender, where it was stopped by the hood until we released
the hood latch. The buyer chuckled because he just wanted
the engine which still ran great.
good times :)
On 5/8/2025 9:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2025 20:03:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>>>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on >>>>> are fun, theyd like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the
reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a dense
row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was the third
one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded of
the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's lever
for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent lever for >>> "landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
Nice idea, but there's a problem. Ralph Nader was able to identify
numerous safety hazards in the automobiles made in the late 1960's.
Among them is getting impaled or punctured by projecting knobs and
switches. Sorry, but flat and low profile are generally safer than
switches and controls with projecting levers.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive hemispherical >>> rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the ones I push most
often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big improvement.
Good idea, but why reinvent the wheel? You could have used
standardized Braille stickers instead. You'll also find Braille
stickers on ATM machines, elevators, roadside phones, some toys, etc.
Also, look into ELIA Frames, a Braille alternative:
<https://theblindguide.com/braille-alternative-is-elia-frames/>
"ELIA Frames Font Explanation Video"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3If0ZWu7jHM>
"We have gone to great lengths testing and refining ELIA Frames to
maximize its learnability. Over 200,000 test subject responses were
collected and analyzed. The key design principle that was applied, in
order to leverage a persons finger sensitivity, was to make each
characters design simple but unique, and to space each letters
features far apart enough that they can be easily recognized."
Small clarification on the dates regarding Mr Nader.
His strongest criticisms were for Volkswagen and Corvair
rear swing axles. Both manufacturers had already planned
their improved IRS models; Corvairs were on the road in USA
from September 1964, before Mr Nader published in January
1965. (Volkswagen didn't change over until autumn 1967 for
the 1968 model year)
On 5/8/2025 8:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/8/2025 7:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push
back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and
so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than
being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally- switching-
back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing
motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the >>>> reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback,
voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and
bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident
rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a
dense row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was
the third one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by
touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded
of the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's
lever for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent
lever for "landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive
hemispherical rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the
ones I push most often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big
improvement.
Agreed that different controls ought to be different in shape, style,
format. I moved this heater fan switch from one car to another over
the years. It's just below the dash of my Malibu now:
https://oldchevytrucks.com/pub/media/catalog/product/s/k/sku-images-
el- el118_blower_switch_non_fresh.jpg?
width=600&height=778&store=default&image-type=imagecamera
And isolated simplicity!
My shop truck has demons in the turn signal/wiper/washer/brights
switch. Can't ever turn off the wipers,
So I added a simple push button on top of the dash, wired through the
wiper fuse. The fast/slow function in the stalk still works.
I can't imagine scrolling through the menus of a touch screen trying
to clear sleet/salt/crud on the windscreen in freeway traffic.
I don't know this for a fact but I'm pretty sure windshield wiper
controls won't be found in a touch screen menu even on the newest cars.
It's invariably a stalk control.
For a time in the early 1980s I drove a beat-to-shit 1974 ford Capri (manufactured by ford of germany). It was a great, fun little coupe
except for the fact that it had extreme body rot. The linkage to this
thread is the windshield wiper control was activated activated by a
floor switch similar to the old american high-beam switch. However, the washer control was on the stalk along with the high beam switch.
I drove it for about a year until it wouldn't pass inspection due to the
body rot. I sold it for parts to someone who wanted the engine. I drove
it to the guys house with a friend following me. As I turned into the
buyers driveway, I heard a loud thud. When I got out of the car it was obvious the car was leaning heavily to the right side. We tried to pop
the hood, which seemed to be jammed (it wasn't before), and once it
released the car dropped another few inches. It turns out the right
front strut mount had completely rotted out and punched its way up
though the fender, where it was stopped by the hood until we released
the hood latch. The buyer chuckled because he just wanted the engine
which still ran great.
good times :)
On Fri, 9 May 2025 08:58:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 5/8/2025 9:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2025 20:03:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gXXmail.com> wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote: >>>>>
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push back by >>>>>> consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and so on
are fun, they’d like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than >>>>> being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally-switching-back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing >>>>> motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the >>>>> reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback, >>>>> voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and >>>>> bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident >>>>> rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a dense >>>> row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was the third >>>> one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded of >>>> the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's lever
for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent lever for >>>> "landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
Nice idea, but there's a problem. Ralph Nader was able to identify
numerous safety hazards in the automobiles made in the late 1960's.
Among them is getting impaled or punctured by projecting knobs and
switches. Sorry, but flat and low profile are generally safer than
switches and controls with projecting levers.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive hemispherical >>>> rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the ones I push most >>>> often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big improvement.
Good idea, but why reinvent the wheel? You could have used
standardized Braille stickers instead. You'll also find Braille
stickers on ATM machines, elevators, roadside phones, some toys, etc.
Also, look into ELIA Frames, a Braille alternative:
<https://theblindguide.com/braille-alternative-is-elia-frames/>
"ELIA Frames Font Explanation Video"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3If0ZWu7jHM>
"We have gone to great lengths testing and refining ELIA Frames to
maximize its learnability. Over 200,000 test subject responses were
collected and analyzed. The key design principle that was applied, in
order to leverage a person’s finger sensitivity, was to make each
character’s design simple but unique, and to space each letter’s
features far apart enough that they can be easily recognized."
Small clarification on the dates regarding Mr Nader.
His strongest criticisms were for Volkswagen and Corvair
rear swing axles. Both manufacturers had already planned
their improved IRS models; Corvairs were on the road in USA
from September 1964, before Mr Nader published in January
1965. (Volkswagen didn't change over until autumn 1967 for
the 1968 model year)
Not that the swing axles were inherently dangerous, except to
loudmouth, self serving jackasses like Nader who didn't even have a
driver's licence when he wrote about Corvairs. Porsche 356 Speedsters
had swing axles and many of them were raced successfully.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
On 5/9/2025 6:32 AM, zen cycle wrote:
On 5/8/2025 8:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/8/2025 7:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/7/2025 12:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 7 May 2025 00:17:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote: >>>>>
Rather depends on the how and the why, I believe has been a push
back by
consumers for example with car dashboards in that while screens and >>>>>> so on
are fun, theyd like some buttons still please and so on.
There is hope for push buttons, in the name of safety.
"Rejoice! Carmakers Are Embracing Physical Buttons Again
Amazingly, reaction times using screens while driving are worse than >>>>> being drunk or high - no wonder 90 percent of drivers hate using
touchscreens in cars. Finally the auto industry is coming to its
senses."
<https://www.wired.com/story/why-car-brands-are-finally- switching-
back-to-buttons/>
"Automakers that nest key controls deep in touchscreen menus forcing >>>>> motorists to drive eyes-down rather than concentrate on the road ahead >>>>> may have their non-US safety ratings clipped next year."
Sorry, but you'll need a Wired Magazine subscription to read the
entire article. If you don't want a subscription, you might find the >>>>> reader comments interesting.
In my never humble opinion, buttons, touch screens, haptic feedback, >>>>> voice control, gestures, sign language and AI all have their good and >>>>> bad points. The trick is to attach numbers (fatality rate, accident >>>>> rate, cost, fashion, etc) to the various schemes and settle on the
least disgusting and most tolerable method.
I greatly prefer physical buttons, switches, etc. while driving.
Fortunately my EV mostly uses those for common functions; but there's
still a problem. Many switches are flat, low profile and all in a
dense row. Even if I did memorize that something like "Defrost" was
the third one from the left, it would be difficult to locate it by
touch.
A possible solution would be switches with covers, etc. molded in
different shapes that gave a clue about their function. I'm reminded
of the increase in airplane safety (in WW2, IIRC) when the pilot's
lever for "flaps" was shaped like a wing cross section. The adjacent
lever for "landing gear" was shaped like a wheel.
What I eventually did was get a pack of ~5mm self adhesive
hemispherical rubber bumpers. I stuck those on certain buttons, the
ones I push most often, so I could find them by touch. It was a big
improvement.
Agreed that different controls ought to be different in shape, style,
format. I moved this heater fan switch from one car to another over
the years. It's just below the dash of my Malibu now:
https://oldchevytrucks.com/pub/media/catalog/product/s/k/sku-images-
el- el118_blower_switch_non_fresh.jpg?
width=600&height=778&store=default&image-type=imagecamera
And isolated simplicity!
My shop truck has demons in the turn signal/wiper/washer/brights
switch. Can't ever turn off the wipers,
So I added a simple push button on top of the dash, wired through the
wiper fuse. The fast/slow function in the stalk still works.
I can't imagine scrolling through the menus of a touch screen trying
to clear sleet/salt/crud on the windscreen in freeway traffic.
I don't know this for a fact but I'm pretty sure windshield wiper
controls won't be found in a touch screen menu even on the newest cars.
It's invariably a stalk control.
I may be wrong, but I thought NHTSA or some other agency once mandated >certain control feature designs on cars. ISTR a mandate for standardized >positions of Park, Neutral, Reverse, Low and Drive for automatic >transmissions. Maybe they mandated wiper control on a stalk?
It hasn't worked with turn indicators, through. It seem most American
drivers are baffled about that left side stalk. What could it possibly
be for??? ;-)
For a time in the early 1980s I drove a beat-to-shit 1974 ford Capri
(manufactured by ford of germany). It was a great, fun little coupe
except for the fact that it had extreme body rot. The linkage to this
thread is the windshield wiper control was activated activated by a
floor switch similar to the old american high-beam switch. However, the
washer control was on the stalk along with the high beam switch.
I drove it for about a year until it wouldn't pass inspection due to the
body rot. I sold it for parts to someone who wanted the engine. I drove
it to the guys house with a friend following me. As I turned into the
buyers driveway, I heard a loud thud. When I got out of the car it was
obvious the car was leaning heavily to the right side. We tried to pop
the hood, which seemed to be jammed (it wasn't before), and once it
released the car dropped another few inches. It turns out the right
front strut mount had completely rotted out and punched its way up
though the fender, where it was stopped by the hood until we released
the hood latch. The buyer chuckled because he just wanted the engine
which still ran great.
good times :)
Perfect design! I've linked to this before - another perfect design: >https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45280/45280-h/45280-h.htm
On 5/8/2025 8:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
I don't know this for a fact but I'm pretty sure windshield wiper
controls won't be found in a touch screen menu even on the newest cars.
It's invariably a stalk control.
On Fri, 9 May 2025 06:32:17 -0400, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 5/8/2025 8:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
I don't know this for a fact but I'm pretty sure windshield wiper
controls won't be found in a touch screen menu even on the newest cars.
It's invariably a stalk control.
Quite true. However, there's usually at least one car designer who
want to provide better "product differentiation" by implimenting
something rediculous. For example, depressing stationary push buttons
is much too easy compared to a hitting moving targets. I present to
everyone the Ford Edsel steering wheel with electrical solenoid
shifting:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletouch> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletouch#/media/File:EdselRanger-interior.jpg>
On 5/9/2025 11:51 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 08:58:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Small clarification on the dates regarding Mr Nader.
His strongest criticisms were for Volkswagen and Corvair
rear swing axles. Both manufacturers had already planned
their improved IRS models; Corvairs were on the road in USA
from September 1964, before Mr Nader published in January 1965.
(Volkswagen didn't change over until autumn 1967 for
the 1968 model year)
Not that the swing axles were inherently dangerous, except to
loudmouth, self serving jackasses like Nader who didn't even have a
driver's licence when he wrote about Corvairs. Porsche 356 Speedsters
had swing axles and many of them were raced successfully.
Well, yes. Except Ernie Kovacs.
On 5/9/2025 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/9/2025 11:51 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 08:58:15 -0500, AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Small clarification on the dates regarding Mr Nader.
His strongest criticisms were for Volkswagen and Corvair
rear swing axles. Both manufacturers had already planned
their improved IRS models; Corvairs were on the road in USA
from September 1964, before Mr Nader published in
January 1965. (Volkswagen didn't change over until
autumn 1967 for
the 1968 model year)
Not that the swing axles were inherently dangerous,
except to
loudmouth, self serving jackasses like Nader who didn't
even have a
driver's licence when he wrote about Corvairs. Porsche
356 Speedsters
had swing axles and many of them were raced successfully.
Well, yes. Except Ernie Kovacs.
James Dean died in a swing axle Porsche, but I don't know
that things would have been different if it had different
suspension.
I think swing axles were more stable with cars with lower
centers of mass.
On 5/9/2025 6:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 06:32:17 -0400, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 5/8/2025 8:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
I don't know this for a fact but I'm pretty sure windshield wiper
controls won't be found in a touch screen menu even on the newest cars.
It's invariably a stalk control.
Quite true. However, there's usually at least one car designer who
want to provide better "product differentiation" by implimenting
something rediculous. For example, depressing stationary push buttons
is much too easy compared to a hitting moving targets. I present to
everyone the Ford Edsel steering wheel with electrical solenoid
shifting:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletouch>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletouch#/media/File:EdselRanger-interior.jpg>
The quoted text below my name is not mine.
On 5/9/2025 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/9/2025 11:51 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2025 08:58:15 -0500, AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Small clarification on the dates regarding Mr Nader.
His strongest criticisms were for Volkswagen and Corvair
rear swing axles. Both manufacturers had already planned
their improved IRS models; Corvairs were on the road in USA
from September 1964, before Mr Nader published in
January 1965. (Volkswagen didn't change over until
autumn 1967 for
the 1968 model year)
Not that the swing axles were inherently dangerous,
except to
loudmouth, self serving jackasses like Nader who didn't
even have a
driver's licence when he wrote about Corvairs. Porsche
356 Speedsters
had swing axles and many of them were raced successfully.
Well, yes. Except Ernie Kovacs.
James Dean died in a swing axle Porsche, but I don't know
that things would have been different if it had different
suspension.
I think swing axles were more stable with cars with lower
centers of mass.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 546 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 28:52:32 |
| Calls: | 10,390 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 14,064 |
| Messages: | 6,417,082 |
