On Wed, 21 May 2025 20:04:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Last night we hosted a touring cyclist from Japan. He's ridden here from
NYC and is on his way to LA, by a route that I think is too ambitious,
given his time frame. He's a chef and was nice enough to cook dinner!
He's riding a Jamis touring bike, disc brakes, Tiagra 2x10, very heavily >loaded.

This morning he headed west about 10 AM, trying to beat oncoming rain.
But at about 1 PM he sent me an email from 18 miles down the road,
saying his bike stopped shifting. He'd tried but failed to fix it
himself. Could I help? He thought he might have broken a rear shift
cable, but wasn't sure.

I didn't get the email until later, but when I did I drove off into
heavy traffic and rain to see if I could help. I took tools and spare
cables. On the way, I encountered him backtracking, about five miles
from my place - so having wasted about 30 miles. I loaded his bike onto
my car's rack and drove him to my LBS.

The mechanic there is an old friend of mine. I was able to convince him
to stop other work to fix the tourist's bike. Turns out that in
fiddling, the young guy had completely unscrewed the adjustable cable
stop on the rear derailleur. But fixing that still left complications.

This mechanic has long had the reputation of being the best in the area. >(I've mentioned him before as the winner of the "fix a flat" race at a
local cycling picnic event.) Still, he was quite frustrated by the front >Tiagra STI lever. He seemed to be having trouble getting it set to the
right condition to properly seat the cable end, then thread the cut end
of the cable into the (totally enclosed) cable housing. It wasn't
responding properly to the upshift or downshift levers.

Spraying the guts thoroughly with lubricant has been the only thing I've
ever done to fix STI. Eventually, doing that enabled him to get the
levers working again and allowed the repair to complete. As a result of
all this, the young guy is going to do an extra overnight here.

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Who are you justifying it to? Why do you think you need to justify it?

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Last night we hosted a touring cyclist from Japan. He's ridden here from
NYC and is on his way to LA, by a route that I think is too ambitious,
given his time frame. He's a chef and was nice enough to cook dinner!
He's riding a Jamis touring bike, disc brakes, Tiagra 2x10, very heavily loaded.

This morning he headed west about 10 AM, trying to beat oncoming rain.
But at about 1 PM he sent me an email from 18 miles down the road,
saying his bike stopped shifting. He'd tried but failed to fix it
himself. Could I help? He thought he might have broken a rear shift
cable, but wasn't sure.

I didn't get the email until later, but when I did I drove off into
heavy traffic and rain to see if I could help. I took tools and spare
cables. On the way, I encountered him backtracking, about five miles
from my place - so having wasted about 30 miles. I loaded his bike onto
my car's rack and drove him to my LBS.

The mechanic there is an old friend of mine. I was able to convince him
to stop other work to fix the tourist's bike. Turns out that in
fiddling, the young guy had completely unscrewed the adjustable cable
stop on the rear derailleur. But fixing that still left complications.

This mechanic has long had the reputation of being the best in the area. (I've mentioned him before as the winner of the "fix a flat" race at a
local cycling picnic event.) Still, he was quite frustrated by the front Tiagra STI lever. He seemed to be having trouble getting it set to the
right condition to properly seat the cable end, then thread the cut end
of the cable into the (totally enclosed) cable housing. It wasn't
responding properly to the upshift or downshift levers.

Spraying the guts thoroughly with lubricant has been the only thing I've
ever done to fix STI. Eventually, doing that enabled him to get the
levers working again and allowed the repair to complete. As a result of
all this, the young guy is going to do an extra overnight here.

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

That’s your techo growch showing! I’m assuming bar end shifters would still require some technical knowledge to rebuild.

Don’t believe STI etc shifters are rebuildable particularly but then again
in my experience they just work, and soak up the miles.

I have the Tiagra shifters 10s though are at least a few, different models.

Roger Merriman

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On 22 May 2025 12:25:59 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Last night we hosted a touring cyclist from Japan. He's ridden here from
NYC and is on his way to LA, by a route that I think is too ambitious,
given his time frame. He's a chef and was nice enough to cook dinner!
He's riding a Jamis touring bike, disc brakes, Tiagra 2x10, very heavily
loaded.

This morning he headed west about 10 AM, trying to beat oncoming rain.
But at about 1 PM he sent me an email from 18 miles down the road,
saying his bike stopped shifting. He'd tried but failed to fix it
himself. Could I help? He thought he might have broken a rear shift
cable, but wasn't sure.

I didn't get the email until later, but when I did I drove off into
heavy traffic and rain to see if I could help. I took tools and spare
cables. On the way, I encountered him backtracking, about five miles
from my place - so having wasted about 30 miles. I loaded his bike onto
my car's rack and drove him to my LBS.

The mechanic there is an old friend of mine. I was able to convince him
to stop other work to fix the tourist's bike. Turns out that in
fiddling, the young guy had completely unscrewed the adjustable cable
stop on the rear derailleur. But fixing that still left complications.

This mechanic has long had the reputation of being the best in the area.
(I've mentioned him before as the winner of the "fix a flat" race at a
local cycling picnic event.) Still, he was quite frustrated by the front
Tiagra STI lever. He seemed to be having trouble getting it set to the
right condition to properly seat the cable end, then thread the cut end
of the cable into the (totally enclosed) cable housing. It wasn't
responding properly to the upshift or downshift levers.

Spraying the guts thoroughly with lubricant has been the only thing I've
ever done to fix STI. Eventually, doing that enabled him to get the
levers working again and allowed the repair to complete. As a result of
all this, the young guy is going to do an extra overnight here.

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

That’s your techo growch showing! I’m assuming bar end shifters would still >require some technical knowledge to rebuild.

Don’t believe STI etc shifters are rebuildable particularly but then again
in my experience they just work, and soak up the miles.

I have the Tiagra shifters 10s though are at least a few, different models.

Roger Merriman

My 3x9 shifters are Shimano Altus Sl-M2010 thumb trigger shifters
which probably have a similar mechanism as as the STIs. I've managed
to adapt them to my very nonstandard handlebars, and I like them so
much that I bought a second pair in case these ever fail.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Am Wed, 21 May 2025 20:04:08 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

Last night we hosted a touring cyclist from Japan. He's ridden here from
NYC and is on his way to LA, by a route that I think is too ambitious,
given his time frame. He's a chef and was nice enough to cook dinner!
He's riding a Jamis touring bike, disc brakes, Tiagra 2x10, very heavily >loaded.

...

Spraying the guts thoroughly with lubricant has been the only thing I've
ever done to fix STI. Eventually, doing that enabled him to get the
levers working again and allowed the repair to complete. As a result of
all this, the young guy is going to do an extra overnight here.

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Then you should not use modern cars or cell phones.

I too liked the bar end shifter on the touring bike I got in nineties of
the last century, even after getting a nasty stich from a broken wire
from the inner cable, while shifting. Does that count as a visible
problem? :-O

Even the wireless shifting components that I used for building our
current road bikes in 2023 are easily installed or replaced, in
comparison to what your options are with a modern laptop, mobile phone,
or car. Even in comparison to their mechanical counterparts, these are
simple and more robust. Software doesn't degrade like mechanical parts
do and different from mechanics, complexity _can_ be hidden without
cost. Counterexamples are mostly caused by product policy and occur with mechanical products, too.

From a consumers point of view, there isn't much difference between a
Tiagra STI lever and a SRAM eTap AXS Shift/Brake Lever, he or she can't
repair either one. Nor can I. But the former component is a lot more complicated than the latter. A STI lever, whether Tiagra, 105 or
Ultegra contains a complicated ratchet mechanism inside, comparable to a mechanical clock, while the latter one is a simple switch combined with
some electronics. Robust near distance communication by wire or over the
air is essentially a solved problem.

Of course we can design and build bicycles that a village blacksmith can repair. Some people do. Who needs more than two gears? You don't need a shifting device for only two gears. And so on.

Personally, I'd like some enforced openness for IoT devices, say
standards that would, for example, force SRAM and Shimano to open up
their protocols in a way that allows some company in Poland to produce a replacement shift lever that can be paired with a wireless derailleur
from SRAM, just like Alugear is able to produce SRAM compatible chain
rings. Problem: Most of the people who write our laws lack the knowledge
to even formulate the problem in a coherent way.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/22/2025 2:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 11:29 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

Am Wed, 21 May 2025 20:04:08 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

... Spraying the guts thoroughly with lubricant has been
the only thing I've
ever done to fix STI. Eventually, doing that enabled him
to get the
levers working again and allowed the repair to complete.
As a result of
all this, the young guy is going to do an extra overnight
here.

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end
shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Then you should not use modern cars or cell phones.

:-)  I'm very aware that my choice of an electric car was,
for me, very unusual. It was based on environmental guilt,
due to the large amount of driving I now have to do.

If there were a simple alternative to a cell phone, I'd
certainly consider it - but for many electronic devices,
there is no simple alternative that's anywhere near as
useful. Smart phones, radios, televisions (although I watch
very, very little) etc. can't be replaced by simple
mechanical devices.

Luckily, STI can be replaced by bar end or other simple
shifters. I prefer the ruggedness, adaptability and
repairability to the slightly greater convenience of STI.

I too liked the bar end shifter on the touring bike I got
in nineties of
the last century, even after getting a nasty stich from a
broken wire
from the inner cable, while shifting.  Does that count as
a visible
problem? :-O

:-) That's a feature, not a bug! When that first strand of
wire breaks and sticks out, it's how the system tells you
that its time to replace your shift cable.

 From a consumers point of view, there isn't much
difference between a
Tiagra STI lever and a SRAM eTap AXS Shift/Brake Lever, he
or she can't
repair either one. Nor can I.  But the former component is
a lot more
complicated than the latter.  A STI lever, whether Tiagra,
105 or
Ultegra contains a complicated ratchet mechanism inside,
comparable to a
mechanical clock, while the latter one is a simple switch
combined with
some electronics. Robust near distance communication by
wire or over the
air is essentially a solved problem.

I don't have any experience nor any data on the reliability
of e-shifting or wireless shifting. I have had problems with
the wireless cyclometer on my Bike Friday - signal failure
in temperatures below 40F = 5 C), technical details on
request - but to me, inability to shift gears is much more
of a problem than inability to see my speed.

Of course we can design and build bicycles that a village
blacksmith can
repair. Some people do. Who needs more than two gears? You
don't need a
shifting device for only two gears. And so on.

Depending on one's objective. This guy had set his
derailleur so his chain was on a middle cog. Shifting in
front would have given him two speeds. I agree with him that
would not be the way to ride to Los Angeles.

"based on environmental guilt..."

Before purchasing a battery powered car, you felt remiss in
not sufficiently promoting chinese hegemony in impoverished
African countries, increasing child slave labor or expanding
wanton environmental degradation from chinese rare earth
refineries? Just wondering.


--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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On 2025-05-22, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

<snip good deed adventure>

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Well, it just so happens that bar end shifters are God's favourite.

If they're good enough for Him they're good enough for me. I have one
SunTour and one Rivendell on my road bike at the moment.

Friction shifting,, by the way...no indexing.

pH



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On Thu, 22 May 2025 16:44:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 3:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/22/2025 2:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 11:29 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

Am Wed, 21 May 2025 20:04:08 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

... Spraying the guts thoroughly with lubricant has been the only
thing I've
ever done to fix STI. Eventually, doing that enabled him to get the
levers working again and allowed the repair to complete. As a result of >>>>> all this, the young guy is going to do an extra overnight here.

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for >>>>> touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Then you should not use modern cars or cell phones.

:-)  I'm very aware that my choice of an electric car was, for me,
very unusual. It was based on environmental guilt, due to the large
amount of driving I now have to do.

If there were a simple alternative to a cell phone, I'd certainly
consider it - but for many electronic devices, there is no simple
alternative that's anywhere near as useful. Smart phones, radios,
televisions (although I watch very, very little) etc. can't be
replaced by simple mechanical devices.

Luckily, STI can be replaced by bar end or other simple shifters. I
prefer the ruggedness, adaptability and repairability to the slightly
greater convenience of STI.

I too liked the bar end shifter on the touring bike I got in nineties of >>>> the last century, even after getting a nasty stich from a broken wire
from the inner cable, while shifting.  Does that count as a visible
problem? :-O

:-) That's a feature, not a bug! When that first strand of wire breaks
and sticks out, it's how the system tells you that its time to replace
your shift cable.

 From a consumers point of view, there isn't much difference between a >>>> Tiagra STI lever and a SRAM eTap AXS Shift/Brake Lever, he or she can't >>>> repair either one. Nor can I.  But the former component is a lot more
complicated than the latter.  A STI lever, whether Tiagra, 105 or
Ultegra contains a complicated ratchet mechanism inside, comparable to a >>>> mechanical clock, while the latter one is a simple switch combined with >>>> some electronics. Robust near distance communication by wire or over the >>>> air is essentially a solved problem.

I don't have any experience nor any data on the reliability of e-
shifting or wireless shifting. I have had problems with the wireless
cyclometer on my Bike Friday - signal failure in temperatures below
40F = 5 C), technical details on request - but to me, inability to
shift gears is much more of a problem than inability to see my speed.

Of course we can design and build bicycles that a village blacksmith can >>>> repair. Some people do. Who needs more than two gears? You don't need a >>>> shifting device for only two gears. And so on.

Depending on one's objective. This guy had set his derailleur so his
chain was on a middle cog. Shifting in front would have given him two
speeds. I agree with him that would not be the way to ride to Los
Angeles.

"based on environmental guilt..."

Before purchasing a battery powered car, you felt remiss in not
sufficiently promoting chinese hegemony in impoverished African
countries, increasing child slave labor or expanding wanton
environmental degradation from chinese rare earth refineries?  Just
wondering.

I left those issues up to you, Andrew. We make our choices, don't we?

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

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On Thu, 22 May 2025 14:55:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Before purchasing a battery powered car, you felt remiss in
not sufficiently promoting chinese hegemony in impoverished
African countries, increasing child slave labor or expanding
wanton environmental degradation from chinese rare earth
refineries? Just wondering.

Why are you being so nasty to Musk? You just described how
Teslas are made. I thought the right wing "admired" him.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
Google Fuchsia - 2021

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On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 5/22/2025 5:02 PM, Shadow wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 14:55:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Before purchasing a battery powered car, you felt remiss in
not sufficiently promoting chinese hegemony in impoverished
African countries, increasing child slave labor or expanding
wanton environmental degradation from chinese rare earth
refineries? Just wondering.

Why are you being so nasty to Musk? You just described how
Teslas are made. I thought the right wing "admired" him.
[]'s

I respect Mr Musk's intellect and creativity and drive, but
I'm not big on battery vehicles which are inherently
inefficient. They outsource energy to remote power plants
and outsource pollution and other downsides to other
countries, while pretending neither exist because they are
not visibly at hand.

I voted with my feet, especially my right foot, for vintage
small block V8 and flat six engines.

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

They are indeed pointless, hence more frangible.
That can be a feature.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

Were you able to find out what that means?

I poked around in the California codes, thinking it referred
to compliance with some typically ditzy California statute
or administrative rule but found nothing. Web search for "45
cal chicken' returned no results as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:34:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

They are indeed pointless, hence more frangible.
That can be a feature.

I prefer grilled chicken with ground pepper and not peppered with
copper and lead shrapnel.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:40:33 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

Were you able to find out what that means?

I poked around in the California codes, thinking it referred
to compliance with some typically ditzy California statute
or administrative rule but found nothing. Web search for "45
cal chicken' returned no results as well.

Yes. I eventually decoding the meaning. I also didn't have any luck
with internet searches. I didn't try any AI searches. I also forgot
to ask the market employees. I didn't figure it out until just before
I posted my message to rec.bicycles.tech.

The "CAL" is an abreviation for "food calories". The signs didn't
specify the weight of grilled chicken that equals 45 calories. 45
calories per dollar isn't very useful.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.
In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the
local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

Were you able to find out what that means?

I poked around in the California codes, thinking it referred to
compliance with some typically ditzy California statute or
administrative rule but found nothing. Web search for "45 cal chicken' returned no results as well.

nutritional information: 45 Kcal per serving? Seems low, but maybe
those servings are smaller than they appear.


--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 22 May 2025 22:54:43 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.
In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the
local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

Were you able to find out what that means?

I poked around in the California codes, thinking it referred to
compliance with some typically ditzy California statute or
administrative rule but found nothing. Web search for "45 cal chicken'
returned no results as well.

nutritional information: 45 Kcal per serving? Seems low, but maybe
those servings are smaller than they appear.

It might be a rubber chicken, which is typical for political dinners: <https://www.google.com/search?q=rubber%20chicken&udm=2> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_chicken>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 22 May 2025 22:10:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 22:54:43 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.
In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the
local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

Were you able to find out what that means?

I poked around in the California codes, thinking it referred to
compliance with some typically ditzy California statute or
administrative rule but found nothing. Web search for "45 cal chicken'
returned no results as well.

nutritional information: 45 Kcal per serving? Seems low, but maybe
those servings are smaller than they appear.

It might be a rubber chicken, which is typical for political dinners: ><https://www.google.com/search?q=rubber%20chicken&udm=2> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_chicken>

There are many "45"s :-)
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=palemoon&q=45&ia=web
--
cheers,

John B.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:03:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local >Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

ACP?

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:40:33 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

Were you able to find out what that means?

I poked around in the California codes, thinking it referred
to compliance with some typically ditzy California statute
or administrative rule but found nothing. Web search for "45
cal chicken' returned no results as well.

I assumed some lie about calories.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 5:02 PM, Shadow wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 14:55:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Before purchasing a battery powered car, you felt remiss in
not sufficiently promoting chinese hegemony in impoverished
African countries, increasing child slave labor or expanding
wanton environmental degradation from chinese rare earth
refineries? Just wondering.

Why are you being so nasty to Musk? You just described how
Teslas are made. I thought the right wing "admired" him.
[]'s

I respect Mr Musk's intellect and creativity and drive, but
I'm not big on battery vehicles which are inherently
inefficient. They outsource energy to remote power plants
and outsource pollution and other downsides to other
countries, while pretending neither exist because they are
not visibly at hand.

I voted with my feet, especially my right foot, for vintage
small block V8 and flat six engines.

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Group thinkers do tend to favor electric vehicles.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/22/2025 8:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:34:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

They are indeed pointless, hence more frangible.
That can be a feature.

I prefer grilled chicken with ground pepper and not peppered with
copper and lead shrapnel.

That is an actual issue for hunters but hollows are a
defensive round.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/22/2025 9:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 5:01 PM, pH wrote:

On 2025-05-22, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

<snip good deed adventure>

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end
shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Well, it just so happens that bar end shifters are God's
favourite.

If they're good enough for Him they're good enough for
me.  I have one
SunTour and one Rivendell on my road bike at the moment.

Friction shifting,, by the way...no indexing.

Agreed!

Well, one bike has them indexing; but I sometimes set it to
friction mode when the indexing gets unreliable.

I have one index bike, a Raleigh Sports 3 speed. No friction
mode; shifts perfectly for the last 54 years.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/22/2025 8:24 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:40:33 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local
Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

Were you able to find out what that means?

I poked around in the California codes, thinking it referred
to compliance with some typically ditzy California statute
or administrative rule but found nothing. Web search for "45
cal chicken' returned no results as well.

Yes. I eventually decoding the meaning. I also didn't have any luck
with internet searches. I didn't try any AI searches. I also forgot
to ask the market employees. I didn't figure it out until just before
I posted my message to rec.bicycles.tech.

The "CAL" is an abreviation for "food calories". The signs didn't
specify the weight of grilled chicken that equals 45 calories. 45
calories per dollar isn't very useful.

D'oh.
I would never have thought of that. Thanks!

p.s. that's per ounce, not per piece: https://www.nutritionix.com/food/grilled-chicken-breast/4%20oz

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:50:00 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 9:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 5:01 PM, pH wrote:

On 2025-05-22, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

<snip good deed adventure>

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end
shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Well, it just so happens that bar end shifters are God's
favourite.

If they're good enough for Him they're good enough for
me.  I have one
SunTour and one Rivendell on my road bike at the moment.

Friction shifting,, by the way...no indexing.

Agreed!

Well, one bike has them indexing; but I sometimes set it to
friction mode when the indexing gets unreliable.

I have one index bike, a Raleigh Sports 3 speed. No friction
mode; shifts perfectly for the last 54 years.

As long as we're doing personal anecdotes, I have several thousand
miles on my trigger shifters with zero problems.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:55:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

Maybe for politicians, but doesn't seem to hinder Trump.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/23/2025 8:07 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:55:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

Maybe for politicians, but doesn't seem to hinder Trump.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Reconsider that.

Popular independents and 3d party candidates can move the
range of discussion, but cannot win national office in USA.
He's presently a nominal Republican for very good reason and
that reason is not ideological.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 09:35:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 8:07 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:55:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>>

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

Maybe for politicians, but doesn't seem to hinder Trump.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Reconsider that.

Popular independents and 3d party candidates can move the
range of discussion, but cannot win national office in USA.
He's presently a nominal Republican for very good reason and
that reason is not ideological.

I believe, and I may be wrong, that Trump was elected on the virtue of
his stated intentions. Many registered Republicans, and some Democrats
don't like the man, but like what he said he was going to do, and
believed that he was going to do what he advocated.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 05:45:14 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

I don't care what you believe. What I consider to be important is WHY
you believe something and what logic you used to construct your
beliefs. That's why I don't like one-line comments.

I'll pretend you were preparing to vote in an election and was
considering the various available candidates. You find a candidate
who's promises and claims are most closely aligned to your beliefs.
You vote for this candidate and they win the election. A few months
later, your candidate gets a better offer (i.e. better bribe) from the
other side of the aisle and changes political party. Do you feel
betrayed? Would you trust him again to deliver on his promises? Are
you considering joining a recall effort? In my never humble opinion,
this politician can't be trusted and, given the oportunity, will
probably auction his vote (and his soul) to the highest bidder.

"List of party switchers in the United States" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_party_switchers_in_the_United_States>



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 08:41:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 05:45:14 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a >>positive characteristic.

I don't care what you believe. What I consider to be important is WHY
you believe something and what logic you used to construct your
beliefs. That's why I don't like one-line comments.

I'll pretend you were preparing to vote in an election and was
considering the various available candidates. You find a candidate
who's promises and claims are most closely aligned to your beliefs.
You vote for this candidate and they win the election. A few months
later, your candidate gets a better offer (i.e. better bribe) from the
other side of the aisle and changes political party. Do you feel
betrayed? Would you trust him again to deliver on his promises? Are
you considering joining a recall effort? In my never humble opinion,
this politician can't be trusted and, given the oportunity, will
probably auction his vote (and his soul) to the highest bidder.

"List of party switchers in the United States" ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_party_switchers_in_the_United_States>

Trusting people I don't know is not my nature, and seeing and hearing
their political propaganda is not going to help me know them.

Do I feel betrayed? Not so much, I didn't trust him/her in the first
place. If a politician changes his/her mind and goes against my
preferences, I chalk it up to "that's what politicians do."

Do I join a recall effort? No, I'm not a joiner, but I may vote for
the recall.

My response to your "one line comment" issue is that I neither want to
hear others explain why they believe and do what they do, nor am I
particularly willing to offer the reasoning behind my opinions. If I
need to understand a person's motivations, I can figure it out better
without their obviously biased input.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:49:16 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 09:35:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 8:07 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:55:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>>>

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

Maybe for politicians, but doesn't seem to hinder Trump.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Reconsider that.

Popular independents and 3d party candidates can move the
range of discussion, but cannot win national office in USA.
He's presently a nominal Republican for very good reason and
that reason is not ideological.

I believe, and I may be wrong, that Trump was elected on the virtue of
his stated intentions. Many registered Republicans, and some Democrats
don't like the man, but like what he said he was going to do, and
believed that he was going to do what he advocated.

I believe, and I'm never wrong, that Donald Trump was selected by the Republican party because he was the only available candidate who had
any chance of winning the election. He was also the only candidate
who actually wanted the job of president. One has only to look at the
before and after photos of previous presidents to see what the office
can do to them. <https://www.google.com/search?q=presidents%20before%20and%20after%20presidency%20pictures&udm=2>
<https://imgur.com/gallery/10-u-s-presidents-before-after-terms-office-UIx17>






--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 08:54:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 10:49:16 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 09:35:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 8:07 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:55:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>>> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>>>>

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a >>>>>> positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

Maybe for politicians, but doesn't seem to hinder Trump.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Reconsider that.

Popular independents and 3d party candidates can move the
range of discussion, but cannot win national office in USA.
He's presently a nominal Republican for very good reason and
that reason is not ideological.

I believe, and I may be wrong, that Trump was elected on the virtue of
his stated intentions. Many registered Republicans, and some Democrats >>don't like the man, but like what he said he was going to do, and
believed that he was going to do what he advocated.

I believe, and I'm never wrong, that Donald Trump was selected by the >Republican party because he was the only available candidate who had
any chance of winning the election. He was also the only candidate
who actually wanted the job of president. One has only to look at the
before and after photos of previous presidents to see what the office
can do to them. ><https://www.google.com/search?q=presidents%20before%20and%20after%20presidency%20pictures&udm=2>
<https://imgur.com/gallery/10-u-s-presidents-before-after-terms-office-UIx17>

May be so. Not worth arguing about. Que sera, sera.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2025-05-23, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 5:01 PM, pH wrote:

On 2025-05-22, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

<snip good deed adventure>

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Well, it just so happens that bar end shifters are God's favourite.

If they're good enough for Him they're good enough for me. I have one
SunTour and one Rivendell on my road bike at the moment.

Friction shifting,, by the way...no indexing.

Agreed!

Well, one bike has them indexing; but I sometimes set it to friction
mode when the indexing gets unreliable.

Since I only have a six-speed freewheel (cluster? What *is* the proper
word...) friction is not finicky at all...

pH

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2025-05-23, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 9:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 5:01 PM, pH wrote:

On 2025-05-22, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

<snip good deed adventure>

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end
shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Well, it just so happens that bar end shifters are God's
favourite.

If they're good enough for Him they're good enough for
me.  I have one
SunTour and one Rivendell on my road bike at the moment.

Friction shifting,, by the way...no indexing.

Agreed!

Well, one bike has them indexing; but I sometimes set it to
friction mode when the indexing gets unreliable.

I have one index bike, a Raleigh Sports 3 speed. No friction
mode; shifts perfectly for the last 54 years.

Oooo! Is it the venerable 'AW' or one of the more rarer breeds? Isn't there one that has an extra low low speed (can't really say "gear")?

I remember Jobst commenting that he kept an AW 3 speed body for his kids to dis-assemble and assemble as a puzzle....

pH

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/23/2025 9:49 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 09:35:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 8:07 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:55:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>>>

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

Maybe for politicians, but doesn't seem to hinder Trump.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Reconsider that.

Popular independents and 3d party candidates can move the
range of discussion, but cannot win national office in USA.
He's presently a nominal Republican for very good reason and
that reason is not ideological.

I believe, and I may be wrong, that Trump was elected on the virtue of
his stated intentions. Many registered Republicans, and some Democrats
don't like the man, but like what he said he was going to do, and
believed that he was going to do what he advocated.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Exactly. He successfully parsed positions of both parties
to form a slight majority. He's not at all an ideologue and
failed at party purity tests in both major parties.

But yet, one needs the support of one party or another to
win national office. And here we are.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 5/23/2025 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 05:45:14 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a
positive characteristic.

I don't care what you believe. What I consider to be important is WHY
you believe something and what logic you used to construct your
beliefs. That's why I don't like one-line comments.

I'll pretend you were preparing to vote in an election and was
considering the various available candidates. You find a candidate
who's promises and claims are most closely aligned to your beliefs.
You vote for this candidate and they win the election. A few months
later, your candidate gets a better offer (i.e. better bribe) from the
other side of the aisle and changes political party. Do you feel
betrayed? Would you trust him again to deliver on his promises? Are
you considering joining a recall effort? In my never humble opinion,
this politician can't be trusted and, given the oportunity, will
probably auction his vote (and his soul) to the highest bidder.

"List of party switchers in the United States" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_party_switchers_in_the_United_States>

More commonly without the artifice of formally changing
parties. "Read my lips, no new taxes." "If you like your
doctor, you can keep your doctor." and so on.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 5/23/2025 10:00 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 10:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 8:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:

I'm not big on battery vehicles which are inherently
inefficient. They outsource energy to remote power plants
and outsource pollution and other downsides to other
countries...

There are serious technical mistakes in those sentences.

See https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-more-efficient-than- internal-combustion-engines  for example.

Nice comparison, and correct as for as it goes.
No dispute with any of that, comparing last-step
efficiencies of the two formats.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/23/2025 12:07 PM, pH wrote:

On 2025-05-23, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 9:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 5:01 PM, pH wrote:

On 2025-05-22, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

<snip good deed adventure>

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end
shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Well, it just so happens that bar end shifters are God's
favourite.

If they're good enough for Him they're good enough for
me.  I have one
SunTour and one Rivendell on my road bike at the moment.

Friction shifting,, by the way...no indexing.

Agreed!

Well, one bike has them indexing; but I sometimes set it to
friction mode when the indexing gets unreliable.

I have one index bike, a Raleigh Sports 3 speed. No friction
mode; shifts perfectly for the last 54 years.

Oooo! Is it the venerable 'AW' or one of the more rarer breeds? Isn't there one that has an extra low low speed (can't really say "gear")?

I remember Jobst commenting that he kept an AW 3 speed body for his kids to dis-assemble and assemble as a puzzle....

pH

Yes, an AW (as bicycle techs say, 'Always Works'). It's an
astoundingly simple device and yes perfect for children as
it's readily grasped.

Note similarities here: https://www.modeltcentral.com/transmission_animation.html

(despite page title, there is no animation)

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 23 May 2025 12:09:48 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 9:49 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 09:35:14 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 8:07 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:55:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>

On 5/23/2025 4:45 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 18:40:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>>> wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:29:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>>>>

By the way, before 2024 Mr Musk was a darling of the left.
Tastes change.

Prez Trump changed political parties quite often:

Republican 1987 to 1999.
Reform Party 1999 to 2001.
Democrat 2001 to 2009.
Republican 2009 to 2011.
Independent 2011 to 2012.
Republican 2012 to present

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump>
See right side bar under "Personal Details".

I beieve not permently attaching one self to a political party is a >>>>>> positive characteristic.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

For one's personal integrity and self respect, sure.

But the downside is to be ostracized from political power
and efficacy in policy.

Maybe for politicians, but doesn't seem to hinder Trump.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Reconsider that.

Popular independents and 3d party candidates can move the
range of discussion, but cannot win national office in USA.
He's presently a nominal Republican for very good reason and
that reason is not ideological.

I believe, and I may be wrong, that Trump was elected on the virtue of
his stated intentions. Many registered Republicans, and some Democrats
don't like the man, but like what he said he was going to do, and
believed that he was going to do what he advocated.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Exactly. He successfully parsed positions of both parties
to form a slight majority. He's not at all an ideologue and
failed at party purity tests in both major parties.

But yet, one needs the support of one party or another to
win national office. And here we are.

I don't know if he's an idealogue or not. I never liked him and I
never watched his TV shows, but I've gone back into his history and
discovered that he'd had many of the issues he ran on from way back.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 23 May 2025 07:47:43 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 8:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 19:34:13 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/22/2025 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2025 17:27:23 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

I do. I choose hollow points for when I carry.

Hollow points are pointless.

In Santa Cruz County, one can buy .45 CAL grilled chicken at the local >>>> Safeway market:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/gc2tXUfDsdVTmgaMA>

They are indeed pointless, hence more frangible.
That can be a feature.

I prefer grilled chicken with ground pepper and not peppered with
copper and lead shrapnel.

That is an actual issue for hunters but hollows are a
defensive round.

Good for varmint shooting too. .22 hollow point at high velocity does
enough damage that the critter lays right down and dies.
--
cheers,

John B.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 23 May 2025 22:38:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 1:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2025 10:00 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 10:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 8:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:

I'm not big on battery vehicles which are inherently inefficient.
They outsource energy to remote power plants and outsource pollution >>>>> and other downsides to other countries...

There are serious technical mistakes in those sentences.

See https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-more-efficient-than- internal-
combustion-engines  for example.

Nice comparison, and correct as for as it goes.
No dispute with any of that, comparing last-step efficiencies of the two
formats.

It's not just "last step." Read the article down to the part about
replacing gasoline with coal, or with natural gas. ""Even if the grid
were entirely fueled by coal, 31% less energy would be needed to charge
EVs than to fuel gasoline cars. If EVs were charged by natural gas, the
total energy demand for highway transportation would fall by nearly
half. Add in hydropower or other renewables, and the result gets even
better, saving up to three-fourths of the energy currently used by >gasoline-powered vehicles,"

Looks like Motor Trend has been bought and paid for by the EV folks.
It never was a magazine devoted to assisting the average automobile
owner, but it was nice to look at all the pretty pictures of supercars
while waiting your turn at the dentist office.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/24/2025 4:16 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 22:38:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 1:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2025 10:00 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 10:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 8:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:

I'm not big on battery vehicles which are inherently inefficient.
They outsource energy to remote power plants and outsource pollution >>>>>> and other downsides to other countries...

There are serious technical mistakes in those sentences.

See https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-more-efficient-than- internal- >>>> combustion-engines  for example.

Nice comparison, and correct as for as it goes.
No dispute with any of that, comparing last-step efficiencies of the two >>> formats.

It's not just "last step." Read the article down to the part about
replacing gasoline with coal, or with natural gas. ""Even if the grid
were entirely fueled by coal, 31% less energy would be needed to charge
EVs than to fuel gasoline cars. If EVs were charged by natural gas, the
total energy demand for highway transportation would fall by nearly
half. Add in hydropower or other renewables, and the result gets even
better, saving up to three-fourths of the energy currently used by
gasoline-powered vehicles,"

Looks like Motor Trend has been bought and paid for by the EV folks.
It never was a magazine devoted to assisting the average automobile
owner, but it was nice to look at all the pretty pictures of supercars
while waiting your turn at the dentist office.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Well, that's the editor's prerogative isn't it?

The discussion changed from 'environmental concerns' to
vehicle fuel efficiency, and Motor Trend is correct on that
point.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 24 May 2025 07:56:56 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 5/24/2025 4:16 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 22:38:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On 5/23/2025 1:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2025 10:00 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 10:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/22/2025 8:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:

I'm not big on battery vehicles which are inherently inefficient. >>>>>>> They outsource energy to remote power plants and outsource pollution >>>>>>> and other downsides to other countries...

There are serious technical mistakes in those sentences.

See https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-more-efficient-than- internal- >>>>> combustion-engines  for example.

Nice comparison, and correct as for as it goes.
No dispute with any of that, comparing last-step efficiencies of the two >>>> formats.

It's not just "last step." Read the article down to the part about
replacing gasoline with coal, or with natural gas. ""Even if the grid
were entirely fueled by coal, 31% less energy would be needed to charge
EVs than to fuel gasoline cars. If EVs were charged by natural gas, the
total energy demand for highway transportation would fall by nearly
half. Add in hydropower or other renewables, and the result gets even
better, saving up to three-fourths of the energy currently used by
gasoline-powered vehicles,"

Looks like Motor Trend has been bought and paid for by the EV folks.
It never was a magazine devoted to assisting the average automobile
owner, but it was nice to look at all the pretty pictures of supercars
while waiting your turn at the dentist office.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Well, that's the editor's prerogative isn't it?

The discussion changed from 'environmental concerns' to
vehicle fuel efficiency, and Motor Trend is correct on that
point.

Of course it's the editor's prerogative, but a media devopted to
pretty pictures and paid for editorials isn't likly to have very much
valuable information.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Am Thu, 22 May 2025 15:17:15 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

On 5/22/2025 11:29 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

Am Wed, 21 May 2025 20:04:08 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

... Spraying the guts thoroughly with lubricant has been the only thing I've
ever done to fix STI. Eventually, doing that enabled him to get the
levers working again and allowed the repair to complete. As a result of
all this, the young guy is going to do an extra overnight here.

To me, it's justification for my preference for bar end shifters for
touring. I prefer simple devices with only visible problems.

Then you should not use modern cars or cell phones.

:-) I'm very aware that my choice of an electric car was, for me, very >unusual. It was based on environmental guilt, due to the large amount of >driving I now have to do.

It depended on personal circumstances, that is.

Same with our choice not to replace our 25 years old and rarely used
family car by an overpowered, heavy and expensive electric car that even wouldn't fit our needs.

Incidentally, a new car with a internal combustion engine wouldn't make
much difference in terms of repairability either. ICE powered cars
younger than say 30 years have lots of possible defects that aren't
visible or repairable by common folks, too. I fixed various defects on
my first car, an used and very broken 30 HP VW beetle. But that was
then. The only repairs I did myself over the last 20 years on the
current car where replacing the battery, changing wipers and fixing a
broken cable. I wouldn't touch anything on a current car, as even
changing the battery can be difficult.

If there were a simple alternative to a cell phone, I'd certainly
consider it - but for many electronic devices, there is no simple
alternative that's anywhere near as useful.

The same goes for the electronic, wireless shifting on the two bikes I
built. It was easier to build such a bike with these components, the
bike is easier to repair, more functional and easier to use than a
purely mechanical counterpart.

I dislike many features of modern cellphones, starting with the almost
complete dependency on a touchscreen. A cell phone that doesn't have a changeable battery is a bad joke, when a wireless rear derailleur with a removeable battery works without problems even in rain and dirt.

Smart phones, radios,
televisions (although I watch very, very little) etc. can't be replaced
by simple mechanical devices.

None of the bicycles you use are produced using simple mechanical tools, either. You wouldn't be able to make a ball bearing, a Bowden cable or a bicycle tire in your workshop. These mechanical devices are everything
but simple.

Luckily, STI can be replaced by bar end or other simple shifters. I
prefer the ruggedness, adaptability and repairability to the slightly
greater convenience of STI.

In actual fact, STI ("Shimano Total Integration") is a good example of a
case where a purely mechanical solution got too far and reached its
limit. So you can go back and live with a slightly less convenient
solution, or you can go forward, switching to a mechatronic solution
that replaces a barely functional rube goldberg device with a simpler mechatronic solution that is both more robust and offers more
convenience. The decision should depend on what the bike is being used
for. Your tourist probably would have been better of with bar end
shifters or just with a little bit of learning about how to maintain and
adjust a STI lever. Or by having the inner cable replaced by a bicycle
dealer every two years. Depending on the specific model and model year
of a Shimano STI lever, it's difficult to do this using only Shimano's documentation. I was bitten by that myself, had to buy a somewhat
expensive replacement lever in a hurry. Live and learn.

I too liked the bar end shifter on the touring bike I got in nineties of
the last century, even after getting a nasty stich from a broken wire
from the inner cable, while shifting. Does that count as a visible
problem? :-O

:-) That's a feature, not a bug! When that first strand of wire breaks
and sticks out, it's how the system tells you that its time to replace
your shift cable.

Of course it is, you won't notice that defect on a STI lever early
enough*) and unfortuately, there is a good chance that the broken wire
curls up inside the lever, blocking the ratchet mechanism and making it difficult to even remove the broken cable. I my case, removing the inner
cable from outside the lever in order to be able to operate the ratchet
for unwinding the curled wire seems to have damaged a tiny tension
spring inside the mechanism, making it partially inoperable. So I just
let a shop install a new lever, two days before our yearly vacation.

That spring doesn't even have a separate part number, probably because replacing that spring needs complete disassembly of the ratchet
mechanism. Im not even sure that I have all the tools to reassembe it.
Paying a shop most probably would be more expensive than just buying a
new lever. I only learned about the specifics of the defect because I disassembled the defective lever after our vacation.

From a consumers point of view, there isn't much difference between a
Tiagra STI lever and a SRAM eTap AXS Shift/Brake Lever, he or she can't
repair either one. Nor can I. But the former component is a lot more
complicated than the latter. A STI lever, whether Tiagra, 105 or
Ultegra contains a complicated ratchet mechanism inside, comparable to a
mechanical clock, while the latter one is a simple switch combined with
some electronics. Robust near distance communication by wire or over the
air is essentially a solved problem.

I don't have any experience nor any data on the reliability of
e-shifting or wireless shifting.

I don't have, either, but I have enough experience with the limited
reliabilty of purely mechanical shifting in order to prefer the
electronic variants, after having heavily used the wireless variant from
SRAM for almost two years, now.

<https://roadbikeaction.com/first-ride-sram-red-etap-electronic-wireless-drivetrain/>

I am not aware of any independent verification of the claims made in the
linked article. On the other hand, I have no reason to believe that the protocol used is less reliable than say, what wireless keybords or
pointing devices use. Especially when the actual protocol, Airea, is
hardened for the specific use case. Mechanical problems still exist -
shifting from 2 to 3 on the 10-52t cassette needs perfect microstep
adjustment in order to be noiseless, but I haven't noticed a single case
of the derailleur not immediately acting on using a lever.

I have had problems with the wireless
cyclometer on my Bike Friday - signal failure in temperatures below 40F
= 5 C), technical details on request - but to me, inability to shift
gears is much more of a problem than inability to see my speed.

Wireless cyclometers are mostly inexpensive stuff nobody cares about. :) Personally, after an injury in 2011 I avoided riding in rain or really
cold weather, even more so after another injury in 2024. So I personally
don't care anymore and don't have experience with using my SRAM eTap componentes with temperatures below say 7 C.

But SRAM seems to care

| Can SRAM RED eTap 2x11 components withstand a rapid
| temperature change from cold to hot, and vice versa?
|
| We have tested 11-speed SRAM RED eTap components
| extensively in our climate chamber, in temperature ranges
| from 120 degrees F (+50°C) to -20 degrees F (-30°C). Rapid
| temperature changes, such as moving from a
| climate-controlled room to outdoors and vice versa, will not
| negatively affect the performance of SRAM components.

<https://support.sram.com/hc/en-us/articles/6773993079579-Can-SRAM-RED-eTap-2x11-components-withstand-a-rapid-temperature-change-from-cold-to-hot-and-vice-versa>

Of course we can design and build bicycles that a village blacksmith can
repair. Some people do. Who needs more than two gears? You don't need a
shifting device for only two gears. And so on.

Depending on one's objective. This guy had set his derailleur so his
chain was on a middle cog. Shifting in front would have given him two
speeds. I agree with him that would not be the way to ride to Los Angeles.

I was thinking of a fixed/fixed rear hub, like the ones sold here <https://www.profileracing.com/product/track-fixedfixed-rear-hub/>

13/20 allows a 1:1.5 ratio, similar to what the first Torpedo 3-speed
hubs from Fichtel&Sachs had. This ratio is probably not good enough for
this trip either.

*) Perhaps you would. I learned that having had to adjust the cable a
little bit without a recognizeable reason might have been an early
indication of a broken wire. That's exactly what I had noticed a while
before, without drawing the corresponding conclusion.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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