On Wed Jun 4 13:27:52 2025 Rolf Mantel wrote:
So you claim to be a US citizen, the government claim you're not.
Should you get a hearing or should the government deport you without a
hearing?
hat is not an argument Rolf. You cannot argue with either an honest birth certificate or now a Real ID. Birth Certificates are certified at the time and place of your birth.
On Thu Jun 5 17:09:50 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 16:09:30 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 6/5/2025 2:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/5/2025 12:59 PM, Beej Jorgensen wrote:There's a difference between refusing to identify yourself and not
In article <1il14k1qafnttu1oeqhfg0qpdfuc6c3o93@4ax.com>,
Catrike Ryder? <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
No, they mnay have got a hearing when they showed that they were
citizens, but not before.
And so you must always carry proof of citizenship 100% of the time, or >>>>> else you're deported without hearing. Don't leave home without it, kids. >>>>>
I'm not advocating either way but merely being a US citizen and walking >>>> around with no ID can get you arrested (depends on the jurisdiction and >>>> circumstances).
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Failure- >>>> identify-police-officer.htm
https://legalclarity.org/do-you-have-to-identify-yourself-to-the-police/ >>>
producing identification. The former is generally what your links are
referring to. Failure to produce identification isn't an offense...yet
There were (are?) places where no ID and "no visible means of support" >>>> is defined as vagrancy = 3 days and a ride to the county line.? Happened >>>> to me, long ago.
There aren't many enforced statutes anymore for failure to produce ID,
in large part due to the 1972 SCoTUS ruling in Papachristou v.
Jacksonville which invalidated the Jacksonville vagrancy law as
"unconstitutionally vague" (aka "Void for Vagueness").
The ruling was unanimous and forced states to amend their vagrancy and
loitering laws to the extent that vagrancy is no longer anything more
than an insult.
https://www.law.virginia.edu/scholarship/publication/risa-goluboff/640716 >>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papachristou_v._City_of_Jacksonville
.
Supposedly the "real Id" thing corrected that, but it would surprise
me if some blue states issued them to illegals.
That would be a serious felony.
On Thu Jun 5 14:55:39 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 6/5/2025 2:38 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 13:14:40 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 6/5/2025 12:59 PM, Beej Jorgensen wrote:
In article <1il14k1qafnttu1oeqhfg0qpdfuc6c3o93@4ax.com>,
Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
No, they mnay have got a hearing when they showed that they were
citizens, but not before.
And so you must always carry proof of citizenship 100% of the time, or >>>>> else you're deported without hearing. Don't leave home without it, kids. >>>>>
I'm not advocating either way but merely being a US citizen
and walking around with no ID can get you arrested (depends
on the jurisdiction and circumstances).
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Failure-identify-police-officer.htm
https://legalclarity.org/do-you-have-to-identify-yourself-to-the-police/ >>>>
There were (are?) places where no ID and "no visible means
of support" is defined as vagrancy = 3 days and a ride to
the county line. Happened to me, long ago.
Vagrancy is another thing.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
It's an unclear issue, especially that some States hand out
ID and even driving licenses to illegal aliens. US citizen
vagrants would imaginably be unable to prove identity while
standing next to a deportable illegal with valid ID.
Again I take no position on this or that but "no ID" is a
very fuzzy standard.
A driver's lisence is suppose to clearly say citizen or undocumented alien.
On Tue Jun 3 19:20:36 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 6/3/2025 7:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 18:37:18 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 6/3/2025 5:57 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 22:10:14 -0000 (UTC), Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> >>>>> wrote:
In article <o1ru3kl764qpqjn2g921laptlm89n6u571@4ax.com>,
Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
There are thousand of illegals. It would take years and $$$$$ to >>>>>>> process them all through the courts... and besides, it's not
necessary.
I sincerely hope for your sake you never have the finger pointed at you >>>>>> through administrative error.
I'm neither in the USA illegally, nor have I committed any crimes, so >>>>> you needn't worry.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
It's not that. It's the possibility of an error such as I
referenced recently:
https://atlantablackstar.com/2024/09/08/elderly-new-jersey-woman-jailed-for-two-weeks-in-wrongful-arrest-cant-sue-u-s-marshals-court-rules/
IMHO that woman is owed a lot and formal public apologies
all around. But so far nada. (p.s. note dates in that story)
I hope she get's big bucks and the people behind the arrest loose
their jobs and their pensions. Mistakes have occurred in all areas of
law enforcement.... but still, we cannot process all the illegals
through the court systems. In the mean time, I'm not going to worry
about being misidentified and sent to prison any more than I worry
about getting hit with a meteorite
--
C'est bon
Soloman
OK that's reasonable, but Mr Jorgensen has a point.
She's not an one-off. There are a couple dozen of those
every year. Every year.
Suing for false arrest and then for damages is a dicey
process depending on jurisdiction and the personalities
involved.
The Statutes are clear about illegal alien criminals. Then
again, the laws are very clear about US citizens' civil
rights too...
But the laws were designed when the problem was hundreds and not millions.
In article <pbq0Q.746378$qmJf.738823@fx16.iad>,
cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have a Real ID in my pocket right now. All traveler outside of the
national boundaries has to show proof of citizenship (a passport) at
all times.
Indeed, you should carry it inside the national boundaries at all times,
as well, since some people apparently think you can be deported without
a hearing if anyone suspects you of being in the country illegally.
Look, I watched approximately 100 illegals vote for Obama at my local
voting place.
I'm really curious how you knew for a fact they were illegal. But that's
not really what I'm on about here.
What I'm on about is that without a hearing, any crooked cop could point
a finger at you and have you deported to prison for life for being an
illegal immigrant. It's all about the due process.
Do you REALLY think that anything close to a majority voted for Biden?
I wasn't sure, but after Trump lost 60+ court cases trying to prove
illegal voting activity, I'm pretty confident that things were on the up-and-up overall. 60+ court cases is a LOT of vetting. Hats off to
Trump for being so thorough. :)
In article <A0p0Q.542754$mjgd.130933@fx09.iad>,
cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Are you saying you're willing to foot the bill for paying for enough
prisons to house these people until the inrvitsble "tguilty" sends them
on their way.
Yes, I absolutely am. Because without due process, we no longer live in
a free country. I am willing to pay almost unlimited amounts of money to
keep us living in a free country.
Those sections of the Constitution were written when the Democrats
weren't peying criminals to come to the US to practice their trade.
There's a mechanism in the Constitution to remove the due process rules
if you want to do that. But I strenuously suggest you do not. A million Americans have given their lives defending those parts of our founding document, so it might be wise to think twice before you shrug them off.
In article <pbq0Q.746378$qmJf.738823@fx16.iad>,
cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have a Real ID in my pocket right now. All traveler outside of the
national boundaries has to show proof of citizenship (a passport) at
all times.
Indeed, you should carry it inside the national boundaries at all times,
as well, since some people apparently think you can be deported without
a hearing if anyone suspects you of being in the country illegally.
Look, I watched approximately 100 illegals vote for Obama at my local
voting place.
I'm really curious how you knew for a fact they were illegal. But that's
not really what I'm on about here.
What I'm on about is that without a hearing, any crooked cop could point
a finger at you and have you deported to prison for life for being an
illegal immigrant. It's all about the due process.
Do you REALLY think that anything close to a majority voted for Biden?
I wasn't sure, but after Trump lost 60+ court cases trying to prove
illegal voting activity, I'm pretty confident that things were on the up-and-up overall. 60+ court cases is a LOT of vetting. Hats off to
Trump for being so thorough. :)
In article <FPo0Q.542385$mjgd.26268@fx09.iad>,
cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Were it relly the case that we deported a member of MS-13 mistakenly
under mistaken identity [...] why did he have a warrany out for him in
his home country? And how did he manage to stay alive here since MS-13
kill fakers?
I don't know. Let's get it to court and get an answer, what do you say?
On Wed Jun 4 19:08:36 2025 Beej Jorgensen wrote:
In article <g1104kpnld069op5s12ddfjpaas7360a82@4ax.com>,
Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
US citizens should indeed get a hearing.
So if the government says you're not a US citizen (even if you are), you
don't get a hearing. This is a planet-sized loophole, you see?
Where do you get the idea that you don't get a hearing? If you have a birth certificate or a up to date passport or a Real ID, that is proof that you're an American citizen. What is with you people repeating the Slime Stream Media lies? This is whyNONE of the news shows are trusted and even the Wall Street Journal and New York Times are considered no more trustworthy than the supermarket tattle tale sheets.
We have ABSOLUTE PROOF that the CIA assassinated JFK and the Democrats let the entire thing slide.
On Sat Jun 7 15:06:15 2025 Beej Jorgensen wrote:
In article <1020f63$2pd7f$4@dont-email.me>, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
In our Constitution, the Article III courts may only decide "cases and
controversies" by applying the laws as written. They have no policy,
legislative or oversight authority.
My point is that if you are wrongly arrested, the courts can free you.
That "oversight" is what I'm referring to.
I have asked you your age and what you do for a living and you have not answered. I can therefore only assume that you are young and not employed. And unemployable people usually are drug addicts. It doesn't bother you in the least if you're a drag onsociety and you're not paying taxes and so wish not to follow the Constitution in the most economical way, hut rather wish to take us on the most expensive route possible.
It appears to me the direction you're traveling is towards homelessness and fentanyl addiction ending in overdose and death. While the world would be better off without Flunky, Liebermann and Krygowski, it needs all of the lawful and honest youngpeople that it can get and the Democrats have twisted the narative that having money is bad and it should be taxed away from you. That is communism pure and simple. So what are your actual beliefs?
In article <8jG1Q.965767$vvyf.10880@fx18.iad>,
cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm curious to know why you think that citizens can be declared as
criminals without court trial findings?
I would have thought this was obvious, but:
1. A law enforcement agency accuses a citizen of being a non-citizen.
2. That law enforcement agency immediately puts the accused on a plane
to a foreign prison because non-citizens don't have the right to due
process.
But maybe never in the history of the United States has a citizen ever
been accused of being a non-citizen, who can know.
On Mon Jun 9 15:36:33 2025 Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jun 2025 18:10:07 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Garcia is NOT a citizen and was brought back to answer crimnal charges of interstate transport of illegal aliens over a LONG period. There is no protection from those sorts of charges.
He worked in construction and drove his colleagues to work.
There is no mention if they were legal or not. If they were illegal,
it's strange the company that employed them was not fined.
He was fined once for driving with an expired license.
I really don't think driving with an expired license is more
serious than being a gang member(and possibly a drug
trafficker/murderer). That's reason they said he was sent to jail
without due process.
Yet they said they brought him back to try him for "more
serious crimes"(the expired driver's license).
Expired driver's license? Exactly why you left wind extremist claims? He was brought back to stand trial for interstate transportation of illegal aliens and every state line crossed between Texas and Tennesee he could be charged with the same crimethough he hasn't been and will simply cop a plea and get 15 months
"For count one, conspiracy to transport aliens, the maximum penalty is a fine, imprisonment for not more than 10 years or both.years. The indictment alleges Abrego Garcia transported undocumented people for private financial gain, meaning he would be subject to a maximum of 10 years in prison if he is convicted as he is charged"
For count two, unlawful transportation of undocumented aliens, the maximum term of imprisonment is five years, unless the offense was committed for "commercial advantage or private financial gain," in which case the maximum term of imprisonment is 10
On Mon Jun 9 20:38:35 2025 AMuzi wrote:
I usually do not but this morning I gave it my best.
To no avail.
p.s. Mr Kunich often begins with a true minuscule factoid
before launching off into outer space, crystals and
hallucinati9ns, all mixed.
Actually, I got the Trump approval of the illegals deportation of 60% mixed up with the percentage of deaths from mRNA vaccines of 74%.
But weren't you arguing that Tom Ritchie built Jobst's frame when people that were actually there said that Peter Rich did it? Perhaps you should tone down the launching into outer space rhetoric.
On Sat Jun 7 07:59:22 2025 zen cycle wrote:
On 6/6/2025 10:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2025 2:57 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/6/2025 1:38 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
Like most USAians, Mr Krygowski and I know what it is and do not have
Wow... You have no Real ID indication on your driver's licence? Do
you even know what it is?
it. I don't know his reason, but for me, why ever would I? meh.
When I last renewed my license, they asked if I wanted Real ID. I learned: >>>
1) I could travel without it by carrying my passport. And I'd need a
passport for international travel anyway.
2) I'd have to run home to fetch things like my passport, my birth
certificate, my social security card, something like a utility bill
addressed to me at home. And start over at the back of the line.
For what? So I don't have to carry my passport when I get on a plane?
A person who didn't provide similar documentation probably doesn't have
a Real ID, no matter what he thinks.
https://www.flhsmv.gov/driver-licenses-id-cards/what-to-bring/u-s-citizen/ >>>.
But hey, ignorance is bliss.
And the right wingers went ballistic when Hillary Clinton suggested a
federally issue ID card.....
References please.
On Fri Jun 6 14:38:26 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 13:55:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 6/6/2025 8:57 AM, AMuzi wrote:
I think we all agree that a finding of fact is necessary and proper. (a >>>> finding of fact is not the same as a trial)
That said, who habitually? carries a certified copy of a birth
certificate?? No one I know at least.
Agreed. For my recent trip to California I had no "Real ID" so I used my >>> passport. But I'll confess to feeling nervous carrying that thing even
around the airport. There's certain documentation one would not want to
lose or misplace.
Wow... You have no Real ID indication on your driver's licence? Do
you even know what it is?
I believe that only 11 states are presently issuing Real ID. My DL has a star up in the corner but this being California, I don't think it means anything.
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