I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it occurred
to me my reactions are a bit different know. Having hit the
deck a few times over the years I see these crashes and now
think this is absolutely crazy. Why would someone ride in
these and take the chance of a crash and the real damage it
could cause. There is one thing about a time trial race with
no groups and even riding a bigger groups. However, the
fierce pushing and dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking
it is too much. I might be totally wrong but is it possible
to ride in the TDF and not take such huge chances. Climbing
I can see relatively tame for crashing but fast descends and
big group at high speed. Can a rider avoid most situations
being cautious?
On 7/6/2025 2:03 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it occurred to me my
reactions are a bit different know. Having hit the deck a few times
over the years I see these crashes and now think this is absolutely
crazy. Why would someone ride in these and take the chance of a crash
and the real damage it could cause. There is one thing about a time
trial race with no groups and even riding a bigger groups. However,
the fierce pushing and dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking it is
too much. I might be totally wrong but is it possible to ride in the
TDF and not take such huge chances. Climbing I can see relatively tame
for crashing but fast descends and big group at high speed. Can a
rider avoid most situations being cautious?
As with auto racing, sure. If you want to guarantee losing.
It's if anything less brutal now.
In the 1956 Giro, Magni, who had won il Giro 3 times previously, crashed:
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/oralhistory-images/Magniimages/ Magni-tube.jpg
With a broken clavicle, he looped a section of inner tube to his
handlebar to stabilize himself by pulling with his teeth and finished
the stage.
Three stages later, he crashed again and broke his humerus. Finished
that stage as well.
Then three stages later climbed Stelvio. The next day on the way to
Trento it snowed, and 60 riders abandoned. Magni finished 3d for the stage. Oh, and 2d place overall at the end of the Giro d'Italia.
Here's Magni in his own words: https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/magni.html
interviewer: "Your physical and mental strength is not common.
Magni: "These virtues are not mine, they are my parents'. Human values
come first. I have always put them before sport."
On 7/6/2025 3:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/6/2025 2:03 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:So sounds like you cannot really be any kind of a cautious
I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it
occurred to me my reactions are a bit different know.
Having hit the deck a few times over the years I see
these crashes and now think this is absolutely crazy. Why
would someone ride in these and take the chance of a
crash and the real damage it could cause. There is one
thing about a time trial race with no groups and even
riding a bigger groups. However, the fierce pushing and
dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking it is too much. I
might be totally wrong but is it possible to ride in the
TDF and not take such huge chances. Climbing I can see
relatively tame for crashing but fast descends and big
group at high speed. Can a rider avoid most situations
being cautious?
As with auto racing, sure. If you want to guarantee losing.
It's if anything less brutal now.
In the 1956 Giro, Magni, who had won il Giro 3 times
previously, crashed:
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/oralhistory-
images/Magniimages/ Magni-tube.jpg
With a broken clavicle, he looped a section of inner tube
to his handlebar to stabilize himself by pulling with his
teeth and finished the stage.
Three stages later, he crashed again and broke his
humerus. Finished that stage as well.
Then three stages later climbed Stelvio. The next day on
the way to Trento it snowed, and 60 riders abandoned.
Magni finished 3d for the stage. Oh, and 2d place overall
at the end of the Giro d'Italia.
Here's Magni in his own words:
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/magni.html
interviewer: "Your physical and mental strength is not
common.
Magni: "These virtues are not mine, they are my parents'.
Human values come first. I have always put them before
sport."
rider you have to be able to handle high speeds. I was
looking at a video where they ask the pros there top speed
they ever hit. All seem to be at about 110 kph and even a
couple at over 120 kph. Obviously they are way out of any
gear and I know when I get going faster than I can pedal
then actually it can be harder to start pedaling to catch
up. It effects the balance on the bike. Spinning with no
resistance is impossible at high speed. I personally cannot
grasp this at all. I once hit 43 on a 9% grade down and only
for a bit. Hard to imagine the bike could get faster and no
way could I get faster.
On 7/6/2025 6:58 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 7/6/2025 3:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/6/2025 2:03 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:So sounds like you cannot really be any kind of a cautious rider...
I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it occurred to me my
reactions are a bit different know. Having hit the deck a few times
over the years I see these crashes and now think this is absolutely
crazy. Why would someone ride in these and take the chance of a crash
and the real damage it could cause. There is one thing about a time
trial race with no groups and even riding a bigger groups. However,
the fierce pushing and dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking it is
too much. I might be totally wrong but is it possible to ride in the
TDF and not take such huge chances. Climbing I can see relatively
tame for crashing but fast descends and big group at high speed. Can
a rider avoid most situations being cautious?
As with auto racing, sure. If you want to guarantee losing.
It's if anything less brutal now.
In the 1956 Giro, Magni, who had won il Giro 3 times previously, crashed: >>>
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/oralhistory-images/
Magniimages/ Magni-tube.jpg
With a broken clavicle, he looped a section of inner tube to his
handlebar to stabilize himself by pulling with his teeth and finished
the stage.
Three stages later, he crashed again and broke his humerus. Finished
that stage as well.
Then three stages later climbed Stelvio. The next day on the way to
Trento it snowed, and 60 riders abandoned. Magni finished 3d for the
stage. Oh, and 2d place overall at the end of the Giro d'Italia.
Here's Magni in his own words:
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/magni.html
interviewer: "Your physical and mental strength is not common.
Magni: "These virtues are not mine, they are my parents'. Human values
come first. I have always put them before sport."
I suspect you're exaggerating the risks. My habit at this point would be
to go look for data on Tour de France injuries - especially serious
injuries - per mile ridden. But I just returned home from dinner with friends, and another friend wants to ride soon; and I doubt I could find
data with sufficient resolution.
"Cautious" varies a lot from individual to individual. I was recently
talking with a woman who said "I'm _never_ going to ride on a road. I'll
ride a bike path, but never a road. I just think it's too dangerous."
She was adamant enough that there was no point in trying to change her
mind. And I'm sure there are people who feel the same about riding
faster than 10 mph.
Certainly, those who are most afraid of crashing would not be in any
sort of group race. But ISTM any rider at TDF level will have countless thousands of miles of experience riding with others very nearby, and
will have a good estimate of the actual risks.
I recently posted some data from a paper rating risk of injury per 1000
hours participation for a large pile of various activities. Competitive bicycling was, on average, much safer than most ordinary sports - safer
even than badminton, let alone tennis, soccer, basketball, etc. etc.
you
have to be able to handle high speeds. I was looking at a video where
they ask the pros there top speed they ever hit. All seem to be at about
110 kph and even a couple at over 120 kph. Obviously they are way out of
any gear and I know when I get going faster than I can pedal then
actually it can be harder to start pedaling to catch up.
110 kph would have to be on a long, steep downhill. They won't be
pedaling at all at any speed near that. It would be pointless, because
the aerodynamic penalty of coming out of the tuck would be far, far
greater than any power they could put into the system by pedaling. That
would be true no matter how high their gearing.
I personally cannot grasp this at all. I once hit 43 on a 9%
grade down and only for a bit. Hard to imagine the bike could get faster
and no way could I get faster.
I've coasted over 40 mph many times. My record is 54 mph, limited by a
car in front of me. I probably wouldn't do that these days, but back
then I thought it was fun.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 7/6/2025 6:58 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 7/6/2025 3:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/6/2025 2:03 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:So sounds like you cannot really be any kind of a cautious rider...
I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it occurred to me my >>>>> reactions are a bit different know. Having hit the deck a few times
over the years I see these crashes and now think this is absolutely
crazy. Why would someone ride in these and take the chance of a crash >>>>> and the real damage it could cause. There is one thing about a time
trial race with no groups and even riding a bigger groups. However,
the fierce pushing and dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking it is >>>>> too much. I might be totally wrong but is it possible to ride in the >>>>> TDF and not take such huge chances. Climbing I can see relatively
tame for crashing but fast descends and big group at high speed. Can >>>>> a rider avoid most situations being cautious?
As with auto racing, sure. If you want to guarantee losing.
It's if anything less brutal now.
In the 1956 Giro, Magni, who had won il Giro 3 times previously, crashed: >>>>
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/oralhistory-images/
Magniimages/ Magni-tube.jpg
With a broken clavicle, he looped a section of inner tube to his
handlebar to stabilize himself by pulling with his teeth and finished
the stage.
Three stages later, he crashed again and broke his humerus. Finished
that stage as well.
Then three stages later climbed Stelvio. The next day on the way to
Trento it snowed, and 60 riders abandoned. Magni finished 3d for the >>>> stage. Oh, and 2d place overall at the end of the Giro d'Italia.
Here's Magni in his own words:
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/magni.html
interviewer: "Your physical and mental strength is not common.
Magni: "These virtues are not mine, they are my parents'. Human values >>>> come first. I have always put them before sport."
I suspect you're exaggerating the risks. My habit at this point would be
to go look for data on Tour de France injuries - especially serious
injuries - per mile ridden. But I just returned home from dinner with
friends, and another friend wants to ride soon; and I doubt I could find
data with sufficient resolution.
"Cautious" varies a lot from individual to individual. I was recently
talking with a woman who said "I'm _never_ going to ride on a road. I'll
ride a bike path, but never a road. I just think it's too dangerous."
She was adamant enough that there was no point in trying to change her
mind. And I'm sure there are people who feel the same about riding
faster than 10 mph.
Certainly, those who are most afraid of crashing would not be in any
sort of group race. But ISTM any rider at TDF level will have countless
thousands of miles of experience riding with others very nearby, and
will have a good estimate of the actual risks.
I recently posted some data from a paper rating risk of injury per 1000
hours participation for a large pile of various activities. Competitive
bicycling was, on average, much safer than most ordinary sports - safer
even than badminton, let alone tennis, soccer, basketball, etc. etc.
you
have to be able to handle high speeds. I was looking at a video where
they ask the pros there top speed they ever hit. All seem to be at about >>> 110 kph and even a couple at over 120 kph. Obviously they are way out of >>> any gear and I know when I get going faster than I can pedal then
actually it can be harder to start pedaling to catch up.
110 kph would have to be on a long, steep downhill. They won't be
pedaling at all at any speed near that. It would be pointless, because
the aerodynamic penalty of coming out of the tuck would be far, far
greater than any power they could put into the system by pedaling. That
would be true no matter how high their gearing.
It would also be on closed roads, and be exemptions, if you follow the TDF live with the trackers or look at riders Strava if they have a public one,
on the whole downhills are much more human type speeds, hence the Tom
Piddock gets the focus for his speed/skill though unseen by the cameras the grupetto aka the sprinters and so on, in Mountainous stages are apparently equally fast down, though they don’t sprint out of corners but conserve energy, but they have mass on their side as well.
It’s on the flats or hills that Pros speeds are frankly superhuman, if you ever get a chance to watch Pro race it’s the speeds they can hold on the flat/hills that are just staggering and slowly increasing year by year!
Hence the big rings pros are using.
Most of the hills I know and use are suitable for speeds over 40mph by
I personally cannot grasp this at all. I once hit 43 on a 9%
grade down and only for a bit. Hard to imagine the bike could get faster >>> and no way could I get faster.
I've coasted over 40 mph many times. My record is 54 mph, limited by a
car in front of me. I probably wouldn't do that these days, but back
then I thought it was fun.
much, either too steep or not steep enough, or have too many corners and so on.
I suspect the heads of the valleys where it drops off either to the west or the east would be one of the best places to get to 50mph and beyond as has gradient 5/10% and gentle curves.
Not sure speed alone is enough for me plot a trip just to ride it though!
I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it occurred to me my reactions are a bit different know. Having hit the deck a few times over
the years I see these crashes and now think this is absolutely crazy.
Why would someone ride in these and take the chance of a crash and the
real damage it could cause. There is one thing about a time trial race
with no groups and even riding a bigger groups. However, the fierce
pushing and dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking it is too much. I
might be totally wrong but is it possible to ride in the TDF and not
take such huge chances.
Climbing I can see relatively tame for crashing
but fast descends and big group at high speed. Can a rider avoid most situations being cautious?
I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it occurred to me my reactions are a bit different know. Having hit the deck a few times over
the years I see these crashes and now think this is absolutely crazy.
Why would someone ride in these and take the chance of a crash and the
real damage it could cause. There is one thing about a time trial race
with no groups and even riding a bigger groups. However, the fierce
pushing and dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking it is too much. I
might be totally wrong but is it possible to ride in the TDF and not
take such huge chances. Climbing I can see relatively tame for crashing
but fast descends and big group at high speed. Can a rider avoid most situations being cautious?
Am 07.07.2025 um 11:55 schrieb Roger Merriman:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 7/6/2025 6:58 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 7/6/2025 3:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/6/2025 2:03 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:So sounds like you cannot really be any kind of a cautious rider...
I was watching some highlights of TDF so far and it occurred to me my >>>>>> reactions are a bit different know. Having hit the deck a few times >>>>>> over the years I see these crashes and now think this is absolutely >>>>>> crazy. Why would someone ride in these and take the chance of a crash >>>>>> and the real damage it could cause. There is one thing about a time >>>>>> trial race with no groups and even riding a bigger groups. However, >>>>>> the fierce pushing and dynamics in a peleton leave me thinking it is >>>>>> too much. I might be totally wrong but is it possible to ride in the >>>>>> TDF and not take such huge chances. Climbing I can see relatively
tame for crashing but fast descends and big group at high speed. Can >>>>>> a rider avoid most situations being cautious?
As with auto racing, sure. If you want to guarantee losing.
It's if anything less brutal now.
In the 1956 Giro, Magni, who had won il Giro 3 times previously, crashed: >>>>>
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/oralhistory-images/
Magniimages/ Magni-tube.jpg
With a broken clavicle, he looped a section of inner tube to his
handlebar to stabilize himself by pulling with his teeth and finished >>>>> the stage.
Three stages later, he crashed again and broke his humerus. Finished >>>>> that stage as well.
Then three stages later climbed Stelvio. The next day on the way to >>>>> Trento it snowed, and 60 riders abandoned. Magni finished 3d for the >>>>> stage. Oh, and 2d place overall at the end of the Giro d'Italia.
Here's Magni in his own words:
https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/magni.html
interviewer: "Your physical and mental strength is not common.
Magni: "These virtues are not mine, they are my parents'. Human values >>>>> come first. I have always put them before sport."
I suspect you're exaggerating the risks. My habit at this point would be >>> to go look for data on Tour de France injuries - especially serious
injuries - per mile ridden. But I just returned home from dinner with
friends, and another friend wants to ride soon; and I doubt I could find >>> data with sufficient resolution.
"Cautious" varies a lot from individual to individual. I was recently
talking with a woman who said "I'm _never_ going to ride on a road. I'll >>> ride a bike path, but never a road. I just think it's too dangerous."
She was adamant enough that there was no point in trying to change her
mind. And I'm sure there are people who feel the same about riding
faster than 10 mph.
Certainly, those who are most afraid of crashing would not be in any
sort of group race. But ISTM any rider at TDF level will have countless
thousands of miles of experience riding with others very nearby, and
will have a good estimate of the actual risks.
I recently posted some data from a paper rating risk of injury per 1000
hours participation for a large pile of various activities. Competitive
bicycling was, on average, much safer than most ordinary sports - safer
even than badminton, let alone tennis, soccer, basketball, etc. etc.
you
have to be able to handle high speeds. I was looking at a video where
they ask the pros there top speed they ever hit. All seem to be at about >>>> 110 kph and even a couple at over 120 kph. Obviously they are way out of >>>> any gear and I know when I get going faster than I can pedal then
actually it can be harder to start pedaling to catch up.
110 kph would have to be on a long, steep downhill. They won't be
pedaling at all at any speed near that. It would be pointless, because
the aerodynamic penalty of coming out of the tuck would be far, far
greater than any power they could put into the system by pedaling. That
would be true no matter how high their gearing.
It would also be on closed roads, and be exemptions, if you follow the TDF >> live with the trackers or look at riders Strava if they have a public one, >> on the whole downhills are much more human type speeds, hence the Tom
Piddock gets the focus for his speed/skill though unseen by the cameras the >> grupetto aka the sprinters and so on, in Mountainous stages are apparently >> equally fast down, though they don’t sprint out of corners but conserve
energy, but they have mass on their side as well.
It’s on the flats or hills that Pros speeds are frankly superhuman, if you >> ever get a chance to watch Pro race it’s the speeds they can hold on the >> flat/hills that are just staggering and slowly increasing year by year!
Hence the big rings pros are using.
Most of the hills I know and use are suitable for speeds over 40mph by
I personally cannot grasp this at all. I once hit 43 on a 9%
grade down and only for a bit. Hard to imagine the bike could get faster >>>> and no way could I get faster.
I've coasted over 40 mph many times. My record is 54 mph, limited by a
car in front of me. I probably wouldn't do that these days, but back
then I thought it was fun.
much, either too steep or not steep enough, or have too many corners and so >> on.
I suspect the heads of the valleys where it drops off either to the west or >> the east would be one of the best places to get to 50mph and beyond as has >> gradient 5/10% and gentle curves.
The most suitable road in the UK I know of is Garrowby Hill on the A166
just east of Stamford bridge, York. It's a pretty much straight road
(doing 70 mph on a motorbike did not trigger the wish for braking as a youngster) signposted 1:6, total drop somewhere between 150m and 200m.
I went down it using normal clothing on a "MTB with road tires" rolling
53 mph when I was young, tucking with a race bike should be
significantly faster.
Some alpine descents are significantly faster than this.
Not sure speed alone is enough for me plot a trip just to ride it though!
Not being young and carefree anymore, I decided I will not aim for
exceeding 50 mph on a bicycle any more; downhill speeds up to 40 mph or
so are what I can do without fear-raised pulse and this is good enough
for me now.
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