<https://youtu.be/f3vp4scTMSo?si=FMfBH3_Bfgp2GkdN>

Quite interesting how the geometry has kept changing, has to be said I’m
one of the weird folks that enjoys technical climbs maybe not more than,
but different type of enjoyment, to downhills!

Roger Merriman

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On 27 Jul 2025 20:07:17 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

<https://youtu.be/f3vp4scTMSo?si=FMfBH3_Bfgp2GkdN>

Quite interesting how the geometry has kept changing, has to be said I’m
one of the weird folks that enjoys technical climbs maybe not more than,
but different type of enjoyment, to downhills!

Roger Merriman

Thanks. I watched the video early this morning, when it first
appeared on YouTube. The methodology seems to be based on the
observation that the head tube angle seems to be increased every year,
so why not anticipate the trend, build a bicycle with tomorrows
geometer, and see what happens? If you don't have time to build and
test computer simulations, trial and error is a good shortcut.

As I recall, the change in head tube angle improved downhill
performance. To keep the rider over the center of gravity (over the
pedals), the rear wheel had to be moved back. The result is a longer
wheel base which produced some odd steering. He said it also did
something to the braking, but I don't recall his observations.
Climbing also suffered from the changes. Seems like a good idea if
all you're doing is racing downhill.

Someone in rec.bicycles.tech (possibly Andrew) once mentioned that
bicycles have been optimized for such a long time, that it's almost
impossible to make a change in one component, without also requiring
changes in other components. I guess this is a good example of a
minimum tweak in the frame geometry and having everything else change.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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On 7/27/2025 4:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On 27 Jul 2025 20:07:17 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

<https://youtu.be/f3vp4scTMSo?si=FMfBH3_Bfgp2GkdN>

Quite interesting how the geometry has kept changing, has to be said I’m >> one of the weird folks that enjoys technical climbs maybe not more than,
but different type of enjoyment, to downhills!

Roger Merriman

Thanks. I watched the video early this morning, when it first
appeared on YouTube. The methodology seems to be based on the
observation that the head tube angle seems to be increased every year,
so why not anticipate the trend, build a bicycle with tomorrows
geometer, and see what happens? If you don't have time to build and
test computer simulations, trial and error is a good shortcut.

As I recall, the change in head tube angle improved downhill
performance. To keep the rider over the center of gravity (over the
pedals), the rear wheel had to be moved back. The result is a longer
wheel base which produced some odd steering. He said it also did
something to the braking, but I don't recall his observations.
Climbing also suffered from the changes. Seems like a good idea if
all you're doing is racing downhill.

Someone in rec.bicycles.tech (possibly Andrew) once mentioned that
bicycles have been optimized for such a long time, that it's almost impossible to make a change in one component, without also requiring
changes in other components. I guess this is a good example of a
minimum tweak in the frame geometry and having everything else change.

What I said is that a closed figure with some interconnected
limits needs a group of changes; it cannot be 'just a head
angle change'. That would be physically impossible, besides
stupid.

I did also noted another time that two wheel geometry is
well known with so many iterations that there's nothing new
to be 'discovered'. It's all about tradeoffs among known
qualities.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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Several years ago, we spent the night in a hotel next to a
drugstore on higher ground. A short steep unofficial
footpath joined the two parking lots.

I watched a group of young boys riding back forth, and after
a while realized that the fun part was riding up the path --
they coasted down just to be able to climb again.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

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Am Mon, 28 Jul 2025 13:38:32 -0400 schrieb Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid>:

Several years ago, we spent the night in a hotel next to a
drugstore on higher ground. A short steep unofficial
footpath joined the two parking lots.

I watched a group of young boys riding back forth, and after
a while realized that the fun part was riding up the path --
they coasted down just to be able to climb again.

This fun isn't restricted to young boys. In 2021, some years
after retirement, I visited an old church on top of a nearby hill
(Michelsberg, 586 m above sea level, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelsberg_(Eifel)>), riding up
and down a somewhat slippery path going from an initial 14% up to
21%.

<https://maps.app.goo.gl/oLxKwmQFejnG5bYE9> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20211018/karte2.jpg> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20211018/DSC07653.JPG> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20211018/profil.png>

Won't be able to do that anymore, after paying the toll of age
and another injury. But near my house, there are still paved
climbs with gradients of 12% up to 17%, which I ride quite often.
I can't compete with strong riders or wimps on e-bikes, but that
isn't the point. It is a healthy execise for both balance and
strength, and it is fun, too.


--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

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On 7/27/2025 4:07 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<https://youtu.be/f3vp4scTMSo?si=FMfBH3_Bfgp2GkdN>

Quite interesting how the geometry has kept changing, has to be said I’m one of the weird folks that enjoys technical climbs maybe not more than,
but different type of enjoyment, to downhills!

Roger Merriman

yup, I'm one of those weirdos that enjoys the up trails more than the
down trails as well.

We have a mountain bike park not too far from me in New Hampshire. It's
been around for at least ten years, and seems to have suvived rather
well, to the extent that they're open year round now

https://highlandmountain.com/winterwoolly/

Sadly, There's no "up" trail. If you want to go up the mountain, you
have to take the lift.

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zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 7/27/2025 4:07 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<https://youtu.be/f3vp4scTMSo?si=FMfBH3_Bfgp2GkdN>

Quite interesting how the geometry has kept changing, has to be said I’m >> one of the weird folks that enjoys technical climbs maybe not more than,
but different type of enjoyment, to downhills!

Roger Merriman

yup, I'm one of those weirdos that enjoys the up trails more than the
down trails as well.

We have a mountain bike park not too far from me in New Hampshire. It's
been around for at least ten years, and seems to have suvived rather
well, to the extent that they're open year round now

https://highlandmountain.com/winterwoolly/

Sadly, There's no "up" trail. If you want to go up the mountain, you
have to take the lift.

Such places do tend to cater for folks who want to go down, which is fair enough and even the ups are fairly dull fireroad sort of things, which on
the gravel bike are lovely but on the MTB are generally Meh!

Hence I tend to avoid and use the more natural trails that we have be that stuff further afield or closer to home, the Surrey hills despite their lack
of height do have some good trails.

Roger Merriman

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In article <k73h8klopabo7s9bj1v93k82drs3s1q3at@4ax.com>,
Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:

riding up and down a somewhat slippery path going from an initial 14%
up to 21%.

Years ago when I lived in Berkeley, there was an uphill in Tilden Park
that was on the verge of impossible. Couldn't carry speed going in, and
you couldn't get up on the pedals or the back would slip out. Too far
back, and the front comes up. Tough to get the balance right and always
a sense of accomplishment when I was able to make it up.

--
Brian "Beej Jorgensen" Hall | beej@beej.us

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