• Which adage applies?

    From ah...Clem@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 16 12:09:17 2021
    "Play small doubles slowly"?
    "When in doubt, make the five point"?
    or
    "Which five point do you mean?"?

    XGID=---BB-C-CAb-bB---cbd-Baa--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:5:10

    X:You O:O
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X O O |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X | | X |
    | O O X | | X X X |
    | O O X X | | X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 133 O: 123 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 1
    X to play 11

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J R@21:1/5 to ah...Clem on Tue Nov 16 12:51:52 2021
    On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 12:09:23 PM UTC-5, ah...Clem wrote:
    "Play small doubles slowly"?
    "When in doubt, make the five point"?
    or
    "Which five point do you mean?"?

    XGID=---BB-C-CAb-bB---cbd-Baa--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:5:10

    X:You O:O
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X O O |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X | | X |
    | O O X | | X X X |
    | O O X X | | X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 133 O: 123 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 1
    X to play 11

    'When in doubt, make the 5pt' applies only to the 5pt, not the 20pt. One of many reasons it's important to refer to points properly in general. And yes, play small doubles slowly because often there are more options than with your regular run of the
    mill rolls.

    Stick

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to ah...Clem on Tue Nov 16 21:21:54 2021
    On 11/16/2021 12:09 PM, ah...Clem wrote:
    "Play small doubles slowly"?
    "When in doubt, make the five point"?
    or
    "Which five point do you mean?"?

    XGID=---BB-C-CAb-bB---cbd-Baa--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:5:10

    X:You O:O
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X O O |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X | | X |
    | O O X | | X X X |
    | O O X X | | X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 133 O: 123 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 1
    X to play 11

    X is behind in the pip count and O doesn't own her 11pt so I don't
    see the value of advancing the anchor. I would just play 8/5 6/5.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ah...Clem@21:1/5 to ah...Clem on Fri Nov 19 11:03:26 2021
    On 11/16/2021 12:09 PM, ah...Clem wrote:
    "Play small doubles slowly"?
    "When in doubt, make the five point"?
    or
    "Which five point do you mean?"?


    This came up over the board and I did not play these small doubles
    slowly. Making the five point seemed so obvious that I didn't think
    about it very much. Turns out that while the rollout agrees, making the defensive five point is exactly tied after 1296 trials, with several
    other plays not very far behind.

    Presumably at GS making the 20 point would be the correct play since it
    loses fewer gammons. At 5a5a the gammon price is slightly lower than for unlimited so making the GP is the bot choice in money play too (rollout
    below). But I doubt I'd ever see that no matter how slowly I played
    these aces, and part of the power of "When in doubt make the five point"
    is that when it's wrong it's usually not wrong by much.


    XGID=---BB-C-CAb-bB---cbd-Baa--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:5:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X O O |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X | | X |
    | O O X | | X X X |
    | O O X X | | X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 133 O: 123 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 1
    X to play 11

    1. Rollout¹ 8/5 6/5 eq:-0.276
    Player: 41.64% (G:6.30% B:0.16%)
    Opponent: 58.36% (G:4.02% B:0.15%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.285..-0.267) - [49.0%]
    Duration: 4 minutes 46 seconds

    2. Rollout¹ 21/20(2) 8/7 6/5 eq:-0.276
    Player: 41.11% (G:5.21% B:0.12%)
    Opponent: 58.89% (G:3.25% B:0.10%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.286..-0.267) - [44.8%]
    Duration: 4 minutes 48 seconds

    3. Rollout¹ 21/20(2) 8/7(2) eq:-0.284 (-0.008)
    Player: 40.88% (G:4.93% B:0.10%)
    Opponent: 59.12% (G:3.13% B:0.11%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.293..-0.275) - [3.8%]
    Duration: 3 minutes 04 seconds

    4. Rollout¹ 8/7(2) 6/5(2) eq:-0.286 (-0.010)
    Player: 41.32% (G:5.78% B:0.16%)
    Opponent: 58.68% (G:3.89% B:0.13%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.295..-0.277) - [1.3%]
    Duration: 2 minutes 43 seconds

    5. Rollout¹ 8/7 8/5 eq:-0.287 (-0.011)
    Player: 41.28% (G:6.06% B:0.14%)
    Opponent: 58.72% (G:3.85% B:0.17%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.297..-0.278) - [1.0%]
    Duration: 4 minutes 03 seconds

    6. Rollout¹ 9/7 8/7 6/5 eq:-0.291 (-0.015)
    Player: 41.19% (G:5.78% B:0.15%)
    Opponent: 58.81% (G:4.19% B:0.17%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.300..-0.281) - [0.2%]
    Duration: 3 minutes 38 seconds


    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller


    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2


    Unlimited play


    XGID=---BB-C-CAb-bB---cbd-Baa--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X O O |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X | | X |
    | O O X | | X X X |
    | O O X X | | X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 133 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 11

    1. Rollout¹ 21/20(2) 8/7 6/5 eq:-0.286
    Player: 41.15% (G:5.17% B:0.13%)
    Opponent: 58.85% (G:3.18% B:0.09%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.295..-0.276) - [70.4%]
    Duration: 5 minutes 06 seconds

    2. Rollout¹ 8/5 6/5 eq:-0.289 (-0.004)
    Player: 41.70% (G:6.33% B:0.16%)
    Opponent: 58.30% (G:4.09% B:0.10%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.299..-0.280) - [29.6%]
    Duration: 5 minutes 12 seconds

    3. 4

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller


    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to ah...Clem on Sat Nov 20 01:40:19 2021
    On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 5:09:23 PM UTC, ah...Clem wrote:
    "Play small doubles slowly"?
    "When in doubt, make the five point"?
    or
    "Which five point do you mean?"?

    XGID=---BB-C-CAb-bB---cbd-Baa--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:5:10

    X:You O:O
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X O O |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X | | X |
    | O O X | | X X X |
    | O O X X | | X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 133 O: 123 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 1
    X to play 11

    Also, the adage: "When you have doubts about which plan to adopt, plan to make your 5 point" seems false.
    For example, in the opening roll, for money play, we only slot the 5 point with 21. 51/41/62 could all be plausibly
    played by slotting the 5 point, but aren't.

    Paul

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  • From J R@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Sun Nov 21 21:36:40 2021
    On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 4:40:20 AM UTC-5, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 5:09:23 PM UTC, ah...Clem wrote:
    "Play small doubles slowly"?
    "When in doubt, make the five point"?
    or
    "Which five point do you mean?"?

    XGID=---BB-C-CAb-bB---cbd-Baa--:0:0:1:11:0:0:0:5:10

    X:You O:O
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match. +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X O O |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X | | X |
    | O O X | | X X X |
    | O O X X | | X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 133 O: 123 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 1
    X to play 11
    Also, the adage: "When you have doubts about which plan to adopt, plan to make your 5 point" seems false.
    For example, in the opening roll, for money play, we only slot the 5 point with 21. 51/41/62 could all be plausibly
    played by slotting the 5 point, but aren't.

    Paul

    I definitely play 41$ and 51$ against almost all opponents. If you see a player of my caliber not doing it you can call them a fish from me.

    Stick

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to J R on Sun Nov 28 10:18:38 2021
    On 11/22/2021 12:36 AM, J R wrote:
    I definitely play 41$ and 51$ against almost all opponents. If you see a player of my caliber not doing it you can call them a fish from me.

    Hey, Paul...it's an empty set joke!

    ---
    Tim Chow

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